From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Fri Dec 1 05:32:38 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:22 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds and weapons Message-ID: While Mark is busy working on PR, I thought of a quick project I can do before I make my gods changes. It has always annoyed me that crossfire's weaponary only contain one handed weapons.. even a pike can be wielded with only one hand (one I say hand, I refer to the whole working arm). As I pondered this, more ideas began flowing and now I have a sizeable number of points I would like to, first make, and then implement. All these ideas relate to either Crossfire's weapons or Crossfire's Speed. I will put these in a sort of list so you can more easily make comments. * Change AC so that the displayer AC (in the client) is (AC - 20) x -1. This will then mean the overall Armour Class a player has is give as zero then increases as more AC is gained. Although I know it has been a tradition to have it going 20 then decreasing, I would like to make it so that all numbers are -> Bigger = Better. (On this theme we recently changed it so that higher values of hunger are better, it used to be that hunger -1 is good.. but this seemed alittle out of place). * Change the displayed players moving speed to be in tiles per second on normal terrain. Could possibly be M/s or Km/h. * Change weapon speed (the value of the weapon.. not overall) to be -> strikes per second. This value will be displayed when a player has identified a weapon and will be between 0 (no hits... not really used) and 100 (although it will be able to go higher than that). Where 100 is 10 strikes per second. This value will be subject to change via the players Dex, Str and level. * The Big one, give players a weapons a number of hands (required and have). Firstly, weapons like pikes and big axes will now have a required hands of 2. Shields will only use one hand (unless someone wants to make a special shield), and everything else will require no hands. This of course will allow players to wield more than one weapon.. which raises a few issues. Firstly, the damage and weapon speed will be weighted but be slightly less than the average. When I say wieghted I mean that a weapon that is really slow will have more effect on the overall weapon speed than a fast one.. also a small damage will have alot more effect on the overall damage. Thus preventing things like wielding a Bone Crusher and a dagger, thus making the player hit really fast with a big weapon (couldn't happen anyway because bone crusher is two handed). Secondly a player will only be able to wield one artifactual weapon. This may also change to a player may only wield one artifactual weapon, plus another weapon if they have a spare hand. Importantly, what defines what weapons a player can wield at the same time will be defined by the weight of the weapon. A player will not be able to wield two very heavy one handed weapons, but possible one heavy and one light, or two medium etc etc. The amount of total weight the player can fight with will be based on the Str only, so only strong players can wield two heavy weapons (and possibly some players may not be able to wield even one heavy weapon due to extremely low str). Bows are two handed, and will ne ever be able to be wielded at the same time as a melee weapon. This idea still needs alot of work, im sure there are flaws in my logic which i need pointed out, but I hope you get my general drift. * Along with this change, some weapons will need to be modified, particualarly the two handed weapons. Spears for instance will be getting quite abit more damage, and moving abit faster relatively than they currently do (you have two hands wielding it.. so you should be able to attack abit faster than you would expect). * A Big idea which I had, that isn't really important, but I thought might be cool, is to give Q's (Quetzalcoatls) three hands. Two for the arms, and one for the tail. Obiviously the same str, weapon speed and damage rules would apply thus making it alittle less efficient per weapon. Also because of the Str stuff, a Q wouldn't be able to wield three heavy swords, but possibly one two handed sword and a dagger or similar. This would give Q's alittle more firepower later on in the game I think.. which is still needed as Q's currently get in alot of trouble in the later stages of the game. Well thats it for now, but I am very interested to hear your replies. If you agree on some then that is great, because I will then implement it. Currently I plan to do the number of hands stuff over this weekend if time allows so prompt response about that would be much appreciated. I personally don't think it will make much difference to the balance of the game, as a player will have to forgo a shield to wield two weapons, thus drastically reducing over AC and arm, and the resistance bonuses a shield will give (remembering that only one artifact weapon can be wielded). plus it will be slightly less efficient to wield more than one weapons, as speed and damage penalties will be enforced, and maybe even.. only the same god on any weapon can be wielded.. so a player cannot wield Mostrai and Devourers weapons at the same time. Thanks for reading, dnh (AKA Darth_bob and Carrot) ps. MichToen, could you please use the gcfclients method for calculating speeds, I would really like to see standardisation there, it is alittle confusing having two different systems for the same thing. Especially when you try to compare weapons. From erik at subnett.no Fri Dec 1 06:55:08 2000 From: erik at subnett.no (Erik Gjertsen) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:22 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds and weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > * Change AC so that the displayer AC (in the client) is (AC - 20) x -1. > This will then mean the overall Armour Class a player has is give as zero > then increases as more AC is gained. Although I know it has been a > tradition to have it going 20 then decreasing, I would like to make it so > that all numbers are -> Bigger = Better. (On this theme we recently > changed it so that higher values of hunger are better, it used to be that > hunger -1 is good.. but this seemed alittle out of place). I mostly agree on your proposals, but I don't like this one... Armour class has always been calculated with a basis of 20, counting downwards when adding armour. This is so in AD&D, this is also so for most all RPGs and MUDs. Call me conservative, but I'd really hate to see that change. If you chose to do this, you should really call it something else, since AC (or Armour Class) is a very old RPG term, and would confuse a lot of people if not used as it should be. ---------------------------------------------e-r-i-k--g-j-e-r-t-s-e-n------ --- PGP http://erik.subnett.no/pgp.txt --- --- Why PGP? http://www.futt.org/whoami_html --- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Fri Dec 1 08:04:25 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds and weapons In-Reply-To: ; from dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 10:32:38PM +1100 References: Message-ID: <20001201160425.A1973@tukki.jyu.fi> On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 10:32:38PM +1100, dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > > * Change AC so that the displayer AC (in the client) is (AC - 20) x -1. > This will then mean the overall Armour Class a player has is give as zero > then increases as more AC is gained. Although I know it has been a > tradition to have it going 20 then decreasing, I would like to make it so > that all numbers are -> Bigger = Better. (On this theme we recently > changed it so that higher values of hunger are better, it used to be that > hunger -1 is good.. but this seemed alittle out of place). AC has always been growing downwards, and it should remain so! > able to wield even one heavy weapon due to extremely low str). Bows are > two handed, and will ne ever be able to be wielded at the same time as a > melee weapon. This idea still needs alot of work, im sure there are flaws > in my logic which i need pointed out, but I hope you get my general drift. Come on. In real life you cannot use both a shield an a bow, but that is essential in a game like crossfire. Once You get the polished shield, You never ever remove it :). Certainly not for firing slay dragon arrows at an electric dragon, eh? -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From leaf at real-time.com Fri Dec 1 11:49:25 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: Armour Class discussion, was Re: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds and weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Traditionally AC has has been calculated on the basis of 20, counting downwards. However the current trend is going the opposite. AD&D 3rd Edition starts at 10 and goes upward. This system is now the new standard for the D20 Open Gaming license as well. The reason is for simplicity, all you have to remember is higher numbers are better. Like what DNH suggests. If AC needs to be renamed, then perhaps calling it Defense Rating or Defense Class ? Another note, if AC is changed to "bigger is better," would changes to the WC (displayed in the client) need to be changed as well? Again, it goes to the non-THAC0 system that 3rd edition now uses. If your WC + d20 is greater than opponents AC, then you hit. Let the discussion continue =) On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Erik Gjertsen wrote: > On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > > > * Change AC so that the displayer AC (in the client) is (AC - 20) x -1. > > This will then mean the overall Armour Class a player has is give as zero > > then increases as more AC is gained. Although I know it has been a > > tradition to have it going 20 then decreasing, I would like to make it so > > that all numbers are -> Bigger = Better. (On this theme we recently > > changed it so that higher values of hunger are better, it used to be that > > hunger -1 is good.. but this seemed alittle out of place). > > I mostly agree on your proposals, but I don't like this one... Armour > class has always been calculated with a basis of 20, counting downwards > when adding armour. This is so in AD&D, this is also so for most all RPGs > and MUDs. > > Call me conservative, but I'd really hate to see that change. If you chose > to do this, you should really call it something else, since AC (or Armour > Class) is a very old RPG term, and would confuse a lot of people if not > used as it should be. From mtx93 at tzi.de Fri Dec 1 12:29:12 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] bugs Message-ID: Hi I do some tests on Mids server and i see, that the skull generators don't work, perhaps more. Also, i have the feeling since times, that some keys i got and use, get not deleted from my keyrings. Perhaps iam wrong, i don' test it, but i count the unused special keys in there, and i don't remember to enter some locations x times without using them. MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Fri Dec 1 12:36:28 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: Armour Class discussion, was Re: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds andweapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Perhaps we should use the 3rd Edition changes. ALso, for map design/monster calculation we can make some better balanced maps and monsters, if the ac/wc calculated like downwards. Its always a good idea to make things easier. But when we do changes, i suggest to implement the 3rd AD&D rules exactly, because iam also a old RPG guy and the AD&D rules are "the rules". Also, I never get very happy with this THAC0 system (i have some AD&D books here from before this times). I find it always to complicate for a simple thing like armor and hit. MichToen > Traditionally AC has has been calculated on the basis of 20, counting > downwards. However the current trend is going the opposite. AD&D 3rd > Edition starts at 10 and goes upward. This system is now the new standard > for the D20 Open Gaming license as well. The reason is for simplicity, > all you have to remember is higher numbers are better. Like what DNH > suggests. > > If AC needs to be renamed, then perhaps calling it Defense Rating or > Defense Class ? > > Another note, if AC is changed to "bigger is better," would changes to the > WC (displayed in the client) need to be changed as well? Again, it goes > to the non-THAC0 system that 3rd edition now uses. If your WC + d20 is > greater than opponents AC, then you hit. > > Let the discussion continue =) > > On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Erik Gjertsen wrote: > > > On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > > > > > * Change AC so that the displayer AC (in the client) is (AC - > 20) x -1. > > > This will then mean the overall Armour Class a player has is > give as zero > > > then increases as more AC is gained. Although I know it has been a > > > tradition to have it going 20 then decreasing, I would like > to make it so > > > that all numbers are -> Bigger = Better. (On this theme we recently > > > changed it so that higher values of hunger are better, it > used to be that > > > hunger -1 is good.. but this seemed alittle out of place). > > > > I mostly agree on your proposals, but I don't like this one... Armour > > class has always been calculated with a basis of 20, counting downwards > > when adding armour. This is so in AD&D, this is also so for > most all RPGs > > and MUDs. > > > > Call me conservative, but I'd really hate to see that change. > If you chose > > to do this, you should really call it something else, since AC > (or Armour > > Class) is a very old RPG term, and would confuse a lot of people if not > > used as it should be. > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel > From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Fri Dec 1 14:16:42 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] AC? WC? Message-ID: Tradition is tradition, the fact remain that Ac and Wc are both very confusing terms.. like Hunger was. In most if not all current rpg games, Ac goes up and so does chance to hit (which is probably a better term that WC). While it is fair that Ac has always been from 20 down, and it is true many games use this, I still think it is confusing (Ditto for WC thanks Rick). I Think changing Ac to Dc or Dr is fine, but the issue is I don't want things that go down when they get better, it looks really yuck to have negative numbers. I assume everyone is happy with the required hands etc stuff? For the bow you are sort of right, with shields like bucklers, you can fire (although I suppose it should be slower). But you are correct for large shields you would not be able to wear it and fire, is this what I should do? Perhaps I should just make a severe speed of bow firing penalty (Like armour gives for Magic) or even use the same code for bows. Thanks for the replys, dnh (AKA Darth_bob and Carrot) From leaf at real-time.com Fri Dec 1 14:55:07 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] AC? WC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think one should gain benefits from any type of shield (even a buckler) when wielding a bow. My reasoning is: How can a person effectively move that arm to block any attack - the arm is tied up pulling the bow string. Bucklers should still remain in the game because they are light (when it comes to weight) and therefore usable by mages and other spell casters with a smaller chance to miscast spells. If no shields are allowed when wielding a bow, then there would be no need to change bow firing speed, correct? On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > I assume everyone is happy with the required hands etc stuff? For the bow > you are sort of right, with shields like bucklers, you can fire (although > I suppose it should be slower). But you are correct for large shields you > would not be able to wear it and fire, is this what I should do? Perhaps I > should just make a severe speed of bow firing penalty (Like armour gives > for Magic) or even use the same code for bows. > From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Fri Dec 1 15:09:57 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Bows and shields In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:55:07 CST." Message-ID: <200012012109.NAA23900@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> What is this obsession with realism? Our question should not be "is it realistic to use bows and shields at the same time?" It should be, "is the game more fun if we disallow the use of bows and shields at the same time?" I believe the answer to that question is NO. I do NOT want to deal with re-equipping and de-equipping shields and bows all the time. The same argument applies to bow firing speed. It's NO fun to sit there frozen while you wait for a bowshot to "reset". Even with the new lighter arrows, quicker speed, and heavier damage with bows, they're STILL a total pain in the ass to use and by and large, I don't. Bows aren't useful enough in the first place for us to think about placing restrictions on them: they suck now (even now, after the changes), why should we make them suck more in the name of "realism"? I mean, come on! "Realism?"??????? "I'm gonna zap you with a magic lightning bolt! Oh yeah, and me, a human being, is 100x tougher than that other human being over there, because I'm level 20 and he's level 1! Oh, look at that dragon over there breathing fire!" PeterM From leaf at real-time.com Fri Dec 1 19:20:56 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Bows and shields In-Reply-To: <200012012109.NAA23900@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: You bring up some excellent points. Does anyone out there use bows or crossbows consistently? Or, does everyone agree with Peter's comment below? Does anyone have suggestions for making the use of bows or crossbows more appealing? Maybe something along the line of arrows that have a spell effect when they hit a target. I know there are such things as Arrows of Flame, but that is only an additional attack type (correct?) What if, the arrows would explode into a very small fireball when they hit a target? Imagine, shooting those arrows with Bow of Accuracy and seeing arrows fly around the corner and hit their target. Well, just a thought... On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Peter Mardahl wrote: > > What is this obsession with realism? > Our question should not be "is it realistic to use bows and shields > at the same time?" > > It should be, "is the game more fun if we disallow the use of bows and > shields at the same time?" > > I believe the answer to that question is NO. I do NOT want to deal with > re-equipping and de-equipping shields and bows all the time. > > The same argument applies to bow firing speed. It's NO fun to sit there > frozen while you wait for a bowshot to "reset". > > Even with the new lighter arrows, quicker speed, and heavier damage with > bows, they're STILL a total pain in the ass to use and by and large, > I don't. > > Bows aren't useful enough in the first place for us to think about > placing restrictions on them: they suck now (even now, after the changes), > why should we make them suck more in the name of "realism"? > > I mean, come on! "Realism?"??????? > > "I'm gonna zap you with a magic lightning bolt! Oh yeah, and me, a > human being, is 100x tougher than that other human being over there, > because I'm level 20 and he's level 1! Oh, look at that dragon over there > breathing fire!" > > PeterM From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 1 21:33:19 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: Armour Class discussion, was Re: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds andweapons References: Message-ID: <3A286D7F.2E1B8EE@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: > > Hi > > Perhaps we should use the 3rd Edition changes. > > ALso, for map design/monster calculation we can make some better balanced > maps and monsters, if the ac/wc calculated like downwards. Its always a good > idea to make things easier. I don't think the change to wc/ac will make it any eaiser (or harder) to balance monsters. Granted, the client could make any appearance changes it wants. The problem is I think that creates more confusion as the client display will tell you something (for values it generates), but for information the server tells you (like examining a monster or other areas), you would get opposite information. While I agree that the positive system that AD&Dv3 uses is simpler for players, I don't think that is an issue here - the program deals with all the rolls and adjustments and whatever else. To me, it is not hard to tell players that for ac and wc, lower is better. I personally suggest we don't follow any game system 'exactly'. First, I don't want to have to worry about any potential copyright issues. Second, we should do what works best, which for a program can be quite different than a real life system. From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 1 21:40:20 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Bows and shields References: <200012012109.NAA23900@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A286F24.925F3EC2@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > "I'm gonna zap you with a magic lightning bolt! Oh yeah, and me, a > human being, is 100x tougher than that other human being over there, > because I'm level 20 and he's level 1! Oh, look at that dragon over there > breathing fire!" > I don't know how many people use it, but the CASTING_TIME time in config.h In that case, spell casting was like you described a bow. Wait a few seconds to cast that spell. The simple fact is that crossfire is a fast paced game. If the game was slower paced, then I could see additional realism in terms of equipping approriate items and what not. But if I'm running arround killing stuff, I don't want to have to unequip the shield, equip bow, fire some more, etc. One thing that may make bows more useful is something like a 'quiver of unlimited arrows'. It would always create normal arrows on demand (when equipped). This should be a fairly costly item (couple hundred pp?), but would at least prevent the issue of having to haul around hundreds of arrows. Arrows it creates could have 0 value, so you can't sell them. From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 1 23:12:03 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Crossfire's Speeds and weapons References: Message-ID: <3A2884A3.613DB74C@scruz.net> dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > * Change the displayed players moving speed to be in tiles per second on > normal terrain. Could possibly be M/s or Km/h. > > * Change weapon speed (the value of the weapon.. not overall) to be -> > strikes per second. This value will be displayed when a player has > identified a weapon and will be between 0 (no hits... not really used) and > 100 (although it will be able to go higher than that). Where 100 is 10 > strikes per second. This value will be subject to change via the players > Dex, Str and level. I really have a problem with anything that is per second. this ties and external time unit (seconds) to the internal time scheme of crossfire. And since the internal timing scheme of crossfire can be changed simply by adjusting MAX_TIME in config.h, at least all the achetypes and internal values should be in referance to that tick time. If we want to change the time player sees to be per second, I don't have a big problem with it. But a few notes: Player speed is used for much more than movement - it is also used for things like casting spells and many other operations. Current player speed is 'actions per tick'. movement gets trickier in that many terrain types reduce players movement speed (you don't move nearly as fast through mountains as you do on roads for example), so having it too strongly suggest you should move X tiles in X seconds just seems like something that will cause trouble. newbie: "my speed says 6 tiles/second. I moved for 6 seconds, but only moved 24 tiles'. But as said in my AC/WC response, I really don't care too much what the client displays, but if you are going to change it, having some option for 'traditional' values might be nice. I personally don't have a problem with speed and weapon speed displays. higher equals better is all that you really need to know. And you pretty quickly get an idea of what is an acceptable speed for movement and what isn't. > > * The Big one, give players a weapons a number of hands (required and > have). Firstly, weapons like pikes and big axes will now have a required > hands of 2. Shields will only use one hand (unless someone wants to make a > special shield), and everything else will require no hands. This of course > will allow players to wield more than one weapon.. which raises a few > issues. Firstly, the damage and weapon speed will be weighted but be > slightly less than the average. When I say wieghted I mean that a weapon > that is really slow will have more effect on the overall weapon speed than > a fast one.. also a small damage will have alot more effect on the overall > damage. Thus preventing things like wielding a Bone Crusher and a dagger, > thus making the player hit really fast with a big weapon (couldn't happen > anyway because bone crusher is two handed). Secondly a player will only be > able to wield one artifactual weapon. This may also change to a player may > only wield one artifactual weapon, plus another weapon if they have a > spare hand. Importantly, what defines what weapons a player can wield at > the same time will be defined by the weight of the weapon. A player will > not be able to wield two very heavy one handed weapons, but possible one > heavy and one light, or two medium etc etc. The amount of total weight the > player can fight with will be based on the Str only, so only strong > players can wield two heavy weapons (and possibly some players may not be > able to wield even one heavy weapon due to extremely low str). Bows are > two handed, and will ne ever be able to be wielded at the same time as a > melee weapon. This idea still needs alot of work, im sure there are flaws > in my logic which i need pointed out, but I hope you get my general drift. Long paragraph to respond to, but various notes: 1) How do you deal with weapon attack types? Right now, for attacks, all values are basically grabbed from the player structure. IF a player is using a firebrand and frostbrand (one attack fire, one attack cold), does he now attack with fire and cold on his increased attack rate? 2) I'm a little worried about trying to adjust speeds and damage within the code. Its worth trying, but I'm concerned that people will find combination of weapons that become very powerful, and more twiddling would be needed. 3) Note that there is no easy way to know an artifact weapon from a none artifact one. The only really definition of artifact is really rare (or well guarded), with really good abilities. There is no flag that says it is an artifact. This also gets more difficult in many maps may just take a normal item and mutate it into an artifact (I believe most of the weapons in tower of demonology fall into that category) 4) I agree with Peter's comment in that I don't want to be shuffling my equipped items whenever I want to use a bow. And you go with that, you could make the same argument that at least one hand has to be free to use a scroll, rod, wand, and potentially two free to use a staff. If that is a worry about playbalance (or try to improve it), you could perhaps add a flag like 'in hand', and you only get the relevant bonuses when that item is inhand, but the server will switch between the appropriate equipped items as need. So for example, you have a sword and shield in hand. You fire a bow, so your sword and shield are no longer in hand, and you lose the relevant AC and any other benefits. You then attack something, so your sword and shield go back 'in hand'. But I really think that is probably more effort than its worth. Easier to presume that right now, it works that the item (scroll, wand, whatever) is only in hand long enough for you to do your action, and then you switch back to what you were doing. If you really want to add realism, changing armor, shields, and weapons should take much longer than they do right now. 5) IMO, the right (but hard) way to do multiple weapons would be to have the two of them be independent. Weapon #1 as equipped by the player may have weapon speed 1.5, and weapon #2 may have speed 0.5 Player attacks, and the weapons do there thing as long as they have the relevant speed. But this is much harder to do, as each attack you basically need to find the weapons. But this does fix problems of damage averaging and multiple attacktypes. > > * Along with this change, some weapons will need to be modified, > particualarly the two handed weapons. Spears for instance will be getting > quite abit more damage, and moving abit faster relatively than they > currently do (you have two hands wielding it.. so you should be able to > attack abit faster than you would expect). In real life, spears are not terrible fast weapons. The big advantage for many two handed weapons is they have some reach, so you can kill your opponent before they get close enough to damage you. It would be hard to do that in crossfire. And note that some weapons are simply suprerior to others. Good two handed weapons might be a two-handed sword and two-handed axe. But in reality, you tend not to have seen nights charging into combat with halberds. > > * A Big idea which I had, that isn't really important, but I thought might > be cool, is to give Q's (Quetzalcoatls) three hands. Two for the arms, and > one for the tail. Obiviously the same str, weapon speed and damage rules > would apply thus making it alittle less efficient per weapon. Also because > of the Str stuff, a Q wouldn't be able to wield three heavy swords, but > possibly one two handed sword and a dagger or similar. This would give Q's > alittle more firepower later on in the game I think.. which is still > needed as Q's currently get in alot of trouble in the later stages of the > game. Does this also give them an extra ring? From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sat Dec 2 19:10:25 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] testing partial resistance on tavern Message-ID: <200012030110.RAA07023@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> So I've been messing around with partial resistances, etc. on tavern. I've found it is actually harder to advance a troll under PR: trolls get -100 resistance fire, a huge disadvantage. It's taken 2.5 protection items to negate this. Before, one item would do the trick. I've found that "resistance weaponmagic" comes up sometimes. I do not think it should: Mark said he'd fix this but his server doesn't reflect it yet. Other than that, though, it seems to be working well. I think that the artifact "dragon mail" ought to get 50 or at least 40 prot. fire. In general, though, the PR stuff seems working well. I urge Mark to put it in CVS and we can all get busy about testing it and balancing things... PeterM From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Sun Dec 3 04:17:26 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] few things (Weapons stuff and PR) Message-ID: Firstly, I have been playing around with Mark's PR stuff and I am very impressed. Everyones fears about balance are really misfounded, it is actually harder to begin with (you need two items just to get what would usually take 1). I agree weapon_magic shouldn't be there but other than that I see no problems. It is really good for Vuns of characters as now we can make characters start off with say -20 vun instead of -100 thus being a minor annoyance but little more. With this power balancing the gods should be alot simpler, thanks alot Mark, Great job. I have greatly appreciated everyones comments on my proposals for the general speed and weapon code. I have come up with a few ideas that might make you feel abit better. Firstly, with multiple weapons, I have enlisted the help of my brother (hopefully) and we aim to change the whole attack code, so that a player can attack with more than one weapon seperately, at the same time =). What this means is as Mark suggested, you have a dagger and an axe, the dagger will hit fast, will the axe will only hit slowly. What this will allow us to do is completely prevent the whole averaging and adding rubbish that I thought I would have to do. Hopefully, we can do things like give the Q a permenent extra weapon, "Tail Whip" that constantly attacks and is permanently on when a Q fights. This also could be employed for some special attack skills, fire touch, karate, punching. Considering Kicking is different to Fire touch, a Fire born that knows Karate (I know that sounds stupid =) will attack with that and firetouch at the same time... What do you think? This will also apply to attack_types, thus preventing getting two weapons and creating a massively powerful combo. Also, the option may come that a player could wield two shields. Crazy as this may sound, it may turn out to be fine, or a massive spot for abuse (two good shields in combo might create some unforeseen unbalances), should I ignore this possibility and write pure code, then balance any items which may abuse the system. Or do I create a block so only one shield can ever be equiped? On the speed stuff, Mark is absolutely right, you can't really give speed in metres per second. My main issue was with weapon speed anyway, and that was with the numbers used (0 to 20) or whatever. I think it should be from 0 to 100 (or greater) which is % of the max speed you fight with your hands. Really I couldn't care what the units are, but the current system for designating weapon speed is very limited. I would like to know how the weapon speed actually affects the final speed, I can't seem to find to code that handles it =|. My feeling is that the weapon should affect the speed of the weapon only by the Dex, Str and level of the player. It should not be a matter of maximum speed because I think that is too restrictive (A player who has extremely good weapon skills will still only be able to swing a certain weapon as fast as a player of a much lower skill and str as long as they are both at max). For the unlimited quivers, I wouldn't mind that at all. My thoughts would be you would want the quiver to act as the arrow, and everytime it is fired it replicates in your inventory (Although the player wont see this). Then you could try and define how fast a player can fire out these magical arrows by setting a cooldown period on the quiver (arrow). So the player will still be limited by the fact that while the arrows are infinite, they can't be fired as fast as normal arrows... if of course the quiver had a magic value of say +5 I would think it would fire alot faster. I leave this project open to anyone, but I think it would greatly improve the 'FUN' rating of archery no end. Crossfire is one of the few games that actually keeps track of arrows, I personally think that detracts from archery (even if it is much more realistic). Adding this quiver as a normal item that is rare, and giving a special one in some quest would be appropriate I think. dnh (AKA Darth_bob) ps. Isn't this very exciting, I think crossfire is really moving now. I would say we are well on our way to version 1, which I dare say is even more exciting. Soon, we are going to have several projects all being 'beta' tested throughout the community... PR, gods rebalance, multiple handed weapons and Andreas' (red_blaze's) maps and savebeds stuff. My thanks to Pete and Mark especially for their massive amounts of work, and to Jay and his new god intervention code. Thanks also to anyone else who has been helping of late (MichToen and Andreas) I am really excited by this progress. From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 3 18:56:27 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:23 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] few things (Weapons stuff and PR) References: Message-ID: <3A2AEBBB.19A4AC1A@scruz.net> dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > > Firstly, I have been playing around with Mark's PR stuff and I am very > impressed. Everyones fears about balance are really misfounded, it is > actually harder to begin with (you need two items just to get what would > usually take 1). I agree weapon_magic shouldn't be there but other than > that I see no problems. It is really good for Vuns of characters as now we > can make characters start off with say -20 vun instead of -100 thus being > a minor annoyance but little more. With this power balancing the gods > should be alot simpler, thanks alot Mark, Great job. Just note that -100 equals double damage, but +50 would be half damage. But I agree - some races could very well get minor resistances (plus and minus) . However, if they are minor enough, there may not be a big point. As I said on IRC, for non damaging attacktypes, currently the protection value you have just affects the saving through. This could/should perhaps be modified to reduce duration as well. The PR code should be checked in now. > > I have greatly appreciated everyones comments on my proposals for the > general speed and weapon code. I have come up with a few ideas that might > make you feel abit better. Firstly, with multiple weapons, I have enlisted > the help of my brother (hopefully) and we aim to change the whole attack > code, so that a player can attack with more than one weapon seperately, at > the same time =). What this means is as Mark suggested, you have a dagger > and an axe, the dagger will hit fast, will the axe will only hit slowly. > What this will allow us to do is completely prevent the whole averaging > and adding rubbish that I thought I would have to do. Hopefully, we can do > things like give the Q a permenent extra weapon, "Tail Whip" that > constantly attacks and is permanently on when a Q fights. This also could > be employed for some special attack skills, fire touch, karate, punching. > Considering Kicking is different to Fire touch, a Fire born that knows > Karate (I know that sounds stupid =) will attack with that and firetouch > at the same time... What do you think? This will also apply to > attack_types, thus preventing getting two weapons and creating a massively > powerful combo. Also, the option may come that a player could wield two > shields. Crazy as this may sound, it may turn out to be fine, or a massive > spot for abuse (two good shields in combo might create some unforeseen > unbalances), should I ignore this possibility and write pure code, then > balance any items which may abuse the system. Or do I create a block so > only one shield can ever be equiped? Modifying the code to have 2 weapons is quite a bit of work. Take this as technical advice, and not to dissuade you: 1) hit player would need to be modified to pass the weapon that is doing the attack. This may not actually be bad - for things like spells, the spell effect could be passed, with hitter being the owner of that. 2) The weapons themselves would need a weapon_speed_left of the like (or maybe just use speed). Then when the player attempts to attack something, you would need to find all the weapons in the player inventory and pass them along. But to do this efficiently, you really need to have a pointer in the player structure pointing to the characters active weapons - you do not want to have to search the players inventory for the equipped weapon each time they attack. Presumably, only players could use two weapons, so this is not a big deal. 3) For the special attack skills, you have to be careful. You certainly can't use fire touch if you have weapons in both hands. To go with the pointers to ready weapons, you probably need an array then if you plan to support an arbitirary number of weapons. 4) As for two shields - unfortunately, there is no size listing for shield. I think for 'realism' and balance, only let them use one shield at a time. > > On the speed stuff, Mark is absolutely right, you can't really give speed > in metres per second. My main issue was with weapon speed anyway, and that > was with the numbers used (0 to 20) or whatever. I think it should be from > 0 to 100 (or greater) which is % of the max speed you fight with your > hands. Really I couldn't care what the units are, but the current system > for designating weapon speed is very limited. I would like to know how the > weapon speed actually affects the final speed, I can't seem to find to > code that handles it =|. My feeling is that the weapon should affect the > speed of the weapon only by the Dex, Str and level of the player. It > should not be a matter of maximum speed because I think that is too > restrictive (A player who has extremely good weapon skills will still only > be able to swing a certain weapon as fast as a player of a much lower > skill and str as long as they are both at max). The formula for weapon speed (common/living.c, around line 1220 with the PR code): M=(max_carry[op->stats.Str]-121)/121.0; M2=max_carry[op->stats.Str]/100.0; W=weapon_weight/20000.0; s=2-weapon_speed/10.0; D=(op->stats.Dex-14)/14.0; K=1 + M/3.0 - W/(3*M2) + op->speed/5.0 + D/2.0; K*=(4+op->level)/(float)(6+op->level)*1.2; if(K<=0) K=0.01; S=op->speed/(K*s); op->contr->weapon_sp=S; weapon_speed is set a bit above like: weapon_speed=((int)WEAPON_SPEED(tmp)*2-tmp->magic)/2; So strength and dex are important, but as well as the weapon_speed of the object. Note that weapon speed as displayed has a very simple meaning: When you attempt to move into a space to attack something, that is how many attack attempts you make. So if your weapon speed is 3, you get three attacks. Unfortunately, the way it does it right now isn't that good - basically, it sets the players speed_left to the weapon speed -1 I believe. So if for example your weapon speed is 3, attack a wall and switch directions, you can use that to move much faster than just moving that directions. I plan to fix that soon - it should be pretty simple. The two weapon code would also fix that I imagine. > > For the unlimited quivers, I wouldn't mind that at all. My thoughts would > be you would want the quiver to act as the arrow, and everytime it is > fired it replicates in your inventory (Although the player wont see this). > Then you could try and define how fast a player can fire out these magical > arrows by setting a cooldown period on the quiver (arrow). So the player > will still be limited by the fact that while the arrows are infinite, they > can't be fired as fast as normal arrows... if of course the quiver had a > magic value of say +5 I would think it would fire alot faster. I leave > this project open to anyone, but I think it would greatly improve the > 'FUN' rating of archery no end. Crossfire is one of the few games that > actually keeps track of arrows, I personally think that detracts from > archery (even if it is much more realistic). Adding this quiver as a > normal item that is rare, and giving a special one in some quest would be > appropriate I think. I don't like the idea of limited rate - the current problem is that bows are considered useless, and its too much a pain to haul around 500 arrows. I personally don't see any problem with unlimited ability to pull out arrows at whatever speed is needed. But I think the arrows should just be normal arrows, so you may still have use to pick up those magical arrows, arrows of slaying, and so forth. Something like this could be useful starting equipment for a archer type class. From karlg at alpha.chemwatch.net Sat Dec 2 06:17:30 2000 From: karlg at alpha.chemwatch.net (Karl Geppert) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] problem with crossedit make and fire spells Message-ID: <200012021217.XAA43452@alpha.chemwatch.net> o What version of crossfire did you use? 0.95.8 o What type of computer did you use? SGI Indy R5K o What release of the operating system did it have? Irix 6.2 o What windowing system are you using (Ie, openwindows, X11R6, etc) X11R6 o What compiler (and its version) did you use (ie, gcc, acc, etc)? gcc (from SGI's freeware collection, using MIPS4 -n32 assembler) o Which flags did you give it? CFLAGS = -g -O2 o If the bug happens when compiling crossfire, send an EXACT copy of the compiler line, as well as the errors it puts out. Sending bugs of the sort 'it failed with a line like ...' doesn't help any. Crossedit doesn't compile ( and hasn't on previous versions too) as the linker fails to resolve symbols needed from libXt. The problem lines in the options for crossfire in the make file - it ships as crossedit: $(OBJS) ../common/libcross.a Cnv/libCnv.a $(RM) -f $@ $(CC) -o $@ $(OBJS) ../common/libcross.a $(LIBS) Cnv/libCnv.a LibCnv.a requires the libXt symbols, so the actual compile line needs to have the $(LIBS) last crossedit: $(OBJS) ../common/libcross.a Cnv/libCnv.a $(RM) -f $@ $(CC) -o $@ $(OBJS) ../common/libcross.a Cnv/libCnv.a $(LIBS) o If the bug happened while running crossfire: - Include any output before to the bug. - Give a description of what you did before the bug occured. The better detailed the description, the better chance I have of figuring out where the bug happened, or how I can recreate the bug. The second problem is an annoyance within the game. This problem has been apparent for the last three versions of crossfire. Every other time my character is loaded, it cannot use fire spells. Every second time it is loaded, it can. (eg start the game, no fire spells, use a bed-to-reality and start again and fire spells are available). The character is a legacy character from sometime in the 0.7 range (I've been playing this for a long time - good job on making a good game). The character is reproduced here checksum f24e411f password Znq9VUc0g41Qw gen_hp 0 gen_sp 5 gen_grace 0 listening 9 spell 4 shoottype 2 peaceful 1 digestion 0 pickup 9 outputs_sync 16 outputs_count 1 usekeys key_inventory map /city/taverns/inn savebed_map /city/taverns/inn bed_x 10 bed_y 5 weapon_sp 0.210362 Str 18 Dex 24 Con 18 Int 21 Pow 21 Wis 17 Cha 22 lev_array 10 9 6 8 9 6 5 9 6 7 9 6 5 9 6 9 9 6 3 9 6 4 9 6 4 9 6 4 9 6 4 known_spell alchemy known_spell animate weapon known_spell antimagic rune known_spell armour known_spell banishment known_spell bless known_spell build bullet wall known_spell build director known_spell build fireball wall known_spell build lightning wall known_spell bullet storm known_spell bullet swarm known_spell burning hands known_spell call holy servant known_spell cancellation known_spell cause medium wounds known_spell cause serious wounds known_spell charisma known_spell charm monsters known_spell comet known_spell command undead known_spell confusion known_spell consecrate known_spell constitution known_spell counterspell known_spell counterwall known_spell create bomb known_spell create earth wall known_spell create fire wall known_spell create food known_spell create frost wall known_spell create missile known_spell create pool of chaos known_spell cure blindness known_spell cure confusion known_spell cure poison known_spell curse known_spell dancing sword known_spell dark vision known_spell destruction known_spell detect curse known_spell detect evil known_spell detect magic known_spell detect monster known_spell dexterity known_spell dimension door known_spell disarm known_spell dragonbreath known_spell earth to dust known_spell faery fire known_spell fear known_spell firebolt known_spell frostbolt known_spell heal known_spell holy orb known_spell holy possession known_spell holy word known_spell holy wrath known_spell icestorm known_spell identify known_spell improved invisibility known_spell insect plague known_spell invisible known_spell invisible to undead known_spell large bullet known_spell large fireball known_spell large lightning known_spell large snowstorm known_spell levitate known_spell light known_spell magic bullet known_spell magic drain known_spell magic mapping known_spell magic missile known_spell magic rune known_spell major healing known_spell mana blast known_spell mana bolt known_spell marking rune known_spell mass confusion known_spell medium fireball known_spell medium manaball known_spell medium snowstorm known_spell minor healing known_spell mystic fist known_spell pacify known_spell paralyze known_spell poison cloud known_spell probe known_spell protection from attack known_spell protection from cold known_spell protection from confusion known_spell protection from depletion known_spell protection from draining known_spell protection from electricity known_spell protection from fire known_spell protection from magic known_spell protection from paralysis known_spell protection from poison known_spell protection from slow known_spell regeneration known_spell remove curse known_spell restoration known_spell rune of blasting known_spell rune of fire known_spell rune of frost known_spell rune of shocking known_spell show invisible known_spell slow known_spell small fireball known_spell small lightning known_spell small manaball known_spell small snowstorm known_spell staff to snake known_spell steambolt known_spell strength known_spell summon air elemental known_spell summon avatar known_spell summon cult monsters known_spell summon earth elemental known_spell summon fire elemental known_spell summon fog known_spell summon golem known_spell summon pet monster known_spell summon water elemental known_spell sunspear known_spell transferrence known_spell turn undead known_spell wall of thorns known_spell word of recall known_spell xray endplst arch elf name airstrike slaying goblin,troll face elf.111 Str 19 Dex 28 Con 20 Wis 17 Pow 27 Cha 22 Int 27 hp 198 maxhp 198 sp 156 maxsp 306 grace 61 maxgrace 123 exp 28848674 food 434 dam 38 wc -10 ac -22 armour 66 x 10 y 5 speed 0.674873 speed_left -0.854265 level 39 type 1 protected 6 attacktype 292 vulnerable 1024 path_attuned 65554 path_repelled 64 path_denied 262144 carrying 1182560 last_heal 3 last_grace 12 last_eat 3 scared 1 reflect_spell 1 no_fix_player 1 xrays 1 been_applied 1 has_ready_skill 1 has_ready_weapon 1 arch depletion Int -1 applied 1 end arch force speed_left -0.362010 applied 1 xrays 1 end arch silvercoin nrof 4927 end arch goldcoin nrof 460 end arch platinacoin nrof 157 end arch pearl nrof 33 been_applied 1 end arch emerald nrof 805 been_applied 1 end arch sapphire face sapphire.112 nrof 856 state 1 been_applied 1 end arch ruby nrof 834 been_applied 1 end arch gem face gem.112 nrof 55 state 1 been_applied 1 end arch smallnugget nrof 6 end arch sapphire title of exceptional beauty face pretty_sapphire.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 2 value 18500 weight 65 is_animated 0 identified 0 end arch emerald title of great value face pretty_emerald.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 9 value 1600 weight 55 is_animated 0 identified 0 end arch ruby title of great value face pretty_ruby.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 3 value 2000 weight 55 is_animated 0 identified 0 end arch waybread nrof 209 been_applied 1 end arch ring face ring.114 wc 1 value 1000 end arch dragonclaw nrof 16 end arch heart name goblin's heart value 400 weight 2000 end arch potionwis name potion face potiongen.111 level 15 cursed 1 known_cursed 1 end arch scroll_new sp 133 exp 22 level 2 value 111 end arch wand face wand.113 sp 5 food 14 level 8 value 580 state 1 applied 1 end arch ring face ring.112 dam -1 value 333 cursed 1 known_cursed 1 end arch figurine_generic title of stone sp 11 nrof 4 level 20 value 222 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of ignition sp 4 value 92 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch card name Port Pass slaying port_pass msg This is a merchants pass allowing payed access between the City of Scorn and the Port of Scorn, for the purposes of trade and commerce. Animal or plants entering the city of scorn must be quarantined in the Quarantine Warehouse in the port area. endmsg value 2500 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch rod_light face rod_light.112 hp 9 maxhp 9 sp 82 level 7 value 10500 state 1 identified 1 inv_locked 1 end arch potion_cold nrof 3 level 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch improve_cha end arch scroll_new sp 75 exp 26 nrof 7 level 8 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of transparency sp 30 value 166 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of flying sp 54 nrof 4 value 150 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_heroism nrof 16 value 357 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_restoration nrof 2 level 3 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potionpow level 12 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 23 exp 32 nrof 3 level 19 value 163 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 25 exp 28 level 18 value 142 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new 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1 end arch rod_heavy face rod_heavy.113 hp 32 maxhp 32 sp 33 food 2 level 13 value 56000 state 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch rod_light hp 9 maxhp 9 sp 1 level 15 value 6300 identified 1 inv_locked 1 end arch dragonslayer identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch magnifier weight 1600 magic 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch scroll_new sp 75 exp 26 level 4 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 75 exp 26 nrof 5 level 6 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 23 exp 32 level 25 value 163 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 60 exp 28 level 19 value 142 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 73 exp 26 level 7 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of frost sp 17 value 46 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of firestorm sp 1 value 56 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 75 exp 26 nrof 7 level 13 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 23 exp 32 nrof 3 level 14 value 163 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch rod_heavy face rod_heavy.112 hp 32 maxhp 32 sp 33 food 2 level 13 value 56000 state 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch key nrof 58 end arch water title of the wise food 6 value 50 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch chocolate been_applied 1 end arch water nrof 19 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch water title of emerald food 6 nrof 4 value 290 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch clover nrof 4 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of show enchantment sp 76 value 46 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch immunity name the runs level 5 known_magical 1 end arch potion_heal nrof 2 value 3714 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_fire level 8 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of cure vision sp 163 nrof 4 value 387 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potiondex Dex 0 nrof 3 level 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potionint Int 0 nrof 4 level 10 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_heal nrof 14 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of resist slow sp 49 nrof 3 value 178 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_magic nrof 7 level 54 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of piercing vision sp 136 value 985 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of serpent sp 156 value 83 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of clinging glow sp 162 nrof 2 value 115 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of first aid sp 32 nrof 3 value 50 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of warmth sp 45 nrof 5 value 107 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of electric shock sp 5 nrof 4 value 56 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_improve level 7 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of firery destruction sp 89 nrof 2 level 60 value 3150 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of freezing sp 83 nrof 4 value 120 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of mystic power sp 121 nrof 4 value 1244 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of cure sickness sp 68 nrof 4 value 140 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of resist poison sp 48 value 168 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of traveling sp 25 nrof 2 value 178 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of aethereality sp 53 value 573 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_magic value 4998 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 164 exp 22 nrof 2 level 4 value 111 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 164 exp 22 level 16 value 111 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 164 exp 22 nrof 3 level 9 value 111 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 23 exp 32 level 9 value 163 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 73 exp 26 level 9 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_new sp 73 exp 26 nrof 2 level 10 value 133 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch rod_heavy face rod_heavy.112 hp 33 maxhp 33 sp 2 food 2 speed 0.250000 speed_left -0.398485 level 13 value 49500 state 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch arrow nrof 32 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch ring_nodrain name Animator's Ring face ring_drain.112 speed_left -0.399999 immune 0 material 0 value 1000 state 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch holy_symbol level 10 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potioncon nrof 4 level 7 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch rod_heavy hp 30 maxhp 30 sp 83 speed 0.250000 speed_left -0.036666 level 17 value 45000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of High Magic face ring.117 Pow 2 Int 2 sp 2 protected 2 value 125000 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of High Magic face ring.117 Pow 2 Int 2 sp 2 protected 2 value 125000 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of Life msg This semi-elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, globe of positive energy; which makes the wielder immune from life draining. It also grants an unnatural vitality. endmsg face ring.117 hp 2 nrof 2 immune 65664 value 40000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch arrow title of Fire nrof 5 attacktype 5 value 5 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch firebrand name Flametongue title of Lythander slaying goblin,troll Con 1 Int 1 dam 23 speed_left 0.150000 protected 4 attacktype 292 path_attuned 2 material 0 value 260000 weight 17000 magic 7 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch trident name Trident of Sea Mastery Cha 3 dam 25 immune 4192 protected 64 attacktype 33 value 50000 magic 5 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch nunchacu_2 name Lightning sticks Dex 4 exp 5 dam 3 protected 8 attacktype 8 material 0 value 75000 magic 4 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch gauntlets_dex armour 12 weight 2296 magic 5 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch bracers_dex armour 6 weight 3645 magic 4 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch girdle_strcon speed_left -0.686290 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.113 protected 12 vulnerable 16 value 9000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of Storm msg This elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, grid of force; which protects against electricity. It also gives facility with electricity spells. endmsg face ring.117 nrof 2 protected 8 path_attuned 8 value 12500 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of Fire msg This elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, globe of coolness; which protects against heat. It also grants the holder greater facility with fire spells. endmsg face ring.117 nrof 2 protected 4 path_attuned 2 value 17500 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of Acid msg This elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, globe of base liquid; which protects against acid. It also gives a fair protection against normal attacks. endmsg face ring.117 armour 20 nrof 2 protected 64 value 12500 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of Ice msg This elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, globe of warmth; which protects against cold. It also grants its holder greater control of cold spells. endmsg face ring.117 nrof 3 protected 16 path_attuned 4 value 15000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.111 Dex 1 Cha 1 exp 1 nrof 2 value 39960 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.114 exp 2 nrof 2 value 1332 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.111 food 2 nrof 2 value 2000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring title of Free Action face ring.117 nrof 2 immune 6144 protected 16416 value 30000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.114 ac 1 protected 1024 value 6000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.113 ac 2 nrof 2 protected 2 value 24000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.112 Str 2 hp 1 value 48000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.114 Str 2 value 2000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch ring face ring.115 protected 16512 value 6000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch amulet title of Shielding face amulet_lif.111 armour 20 value 5000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch amulet value 27500 applied 1 identified 1 reflect_spell 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch bow title of wizard msg This bow is magically enchanted so that archer's strength doesn't affect damage made by it. endmsg value 250 applied 1 identified 1 startequip 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch skill_bowyer level 1 end arch skill_woodsman level 3 end arch lockpicks level 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch skill_jumping level 13 end arch skill_jeweler level 9 end arch skill_alchemy level 9 end arch skill_karate level 19 been_applied 1 end arch skill_melee_weapon level 21 been_applied 1 end arch skill_missile_weapon level 20 been_applied 1 end arch skill_use_magic_item been_applied 1 end arch skill_praying level 9 been_applied 1 end arch skill_spellcasting level 33 applied 1 been_applied 1 end arch skill_find_traps level 8 been_applied 1 end arch skill_remove_trap level 7 been_applied 1 end arch talisman title of Frost level 33 path_attuned 4 path_denied 2 value 9000 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch skill_singing level 1 end arch skill_thaumaturgy level 9 end arch skill_literacy level 8 been_applied 1 end arch stylus identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch skill_sense_magic level 27 end arch skill_smithery level 9 end arch skill_climbing end arch skill_stealing level 3 end arch skill_punching level 19 been_applied 1 end arch experience_agility exp 73997 level 7 last_heal 25472 applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch experience_charisma applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch experience_mental exp 103894 level 7 last_heal 39485 applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch experience_physical exp 7008225 level 19 last_heal 2375475 applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch experience_power exp 21151829 level 33 last_heal 7236636 applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch experience_wis title Lythander exp 510729 level 10 protected 2 vulnerable 1024 path_attuned 65552 path_repelled 64 path_denied 262144 last_heal 203572 applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch horn2 title of Frost hp 40 maxhp 40 sp 83 speed_left -0.078942 value 59000 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch luggage face luggage.114 speed_left 0.400000 carrying 200350 state 3 magic -5 inv_locked 1 arch book_read name Not THE book msg This is Not THE book. Too bad you still can't understand it. endmsg identified 1 been_applied 1 no_skill_ident 1 end arch potion_generic title of self knowledge sp 24 nrof 2 value 93 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of recuperation sp 146 value 356 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of quickness sp 40 value 120 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of resist slow sp 49 value 178 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of cure madness sp 125 nrof 2 value 356 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of resist magic sp 52 nrof 2 value 600 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_magic nrof 26 level 54 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_invulnerability nrof 5 level 4 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch balm_generic title of insulation sp 46 nrof 2 value 125 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_heroism nrof 38 level 21 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potiondex nrof 6 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potioncon Con 0 nrof 18 level 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_fire nrof 43 level 18 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potioncha identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potionstr nrof 5 level 5 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_heal nrof 25 level 8 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potionpow Pow 0 nrof 5 level 5 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potionwis nrof 3 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potionint nrof 3 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_restoration nrof 23 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_generic title of magic immunity sp 102 nrof 2 value 35000 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch potion_cold nrof 35 level 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of night vision sp 164 nrof 15 value 127 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of piercing vision sp 136 nrof 2 value 985 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dust_generic title of conflagration sp 57 nrof 3 value 613 identified 1 been_applied 1 end end arch luggage speed_left 0.400000 carrying 30217 magic -5 inv_locked 1 arch sapphire title of exceptional beauty face pretty_sapphire.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 36 value 18500 weight 65 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch sapphire title of great value face pretty_sapphire.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 219 value 1850 weight 55 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch ruby title of great value face pretty_ruby.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 78 value 2000 weight 55 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch gem title of great value face pretty_crystal.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 210 value 4000 weight 55 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch emerald title of great value face pretty_emerald.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 247 value 1600 weight 55 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch ruby title of exceptional beauty face pretty_ruby.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 27 value 20000 weight 65 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch gem title of exceptional beauty face pretty_crystal.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 153 value 40000 weight 65 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch ruby title of flawless beauty face pretty_ruby.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 3 value 200000 weight 100 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch emerald title of exceptional beauty face pretty_emerald.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 25 value 16000 weight 65 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch sapphire title of flawless beauty face pretty_sapphire.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 9 value 185000 weight 100 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch emerald title of flawless beauty face pretty_emerald.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 18 value 160000 weight 100 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch gem title of flawless beauty face pretty_crystal.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 3 value 400000 weight 100 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end end arch luggage speed_left 0.400000 carrying 400 magic -3 inv_locked 1 arch improve_damage been_applied 1 end arch improve_int been_applied 1 end arch improve_weight been_applied 1 end arch improve_dex been_applied 1 end end arch luggage face luggage.112 speed_left -0.100000 carrying 9640 state 1 magic -1 inv_locked 1 arch sapphire title of great value face pretty_sapphire.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 47 value 1850 weight 55 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch ruby title of great value face pretty_ruby.111 speed 0.000000 nrof 19 value 2000 weight 55 is_animated 0 been_applied 1 end arch improve_dex nrof 3 been_applied 1 end arch improve_weight been_applied 1 end arch improve_int nrof 3 been_applied 1 end arch improve_damage nrof 2 been_applied 1 end arch ench_armour nrof 2 been_applied 1 end arch mandrake_root nrof 5 been_applied 1 end arch tome name record title of residents msg This beastiary contains: --- *** Gnarg *** (fast movement)(armour+40)(slay faerie,dwarf)(wield weapon)(wear armour)(spellcaster)(Attacks: poison)(Immune: poison)(Protected: poison)(Vulnerable: fear)(Attuned: Missiles, Wounding)(Repelled: Restoration, Turning) --- *** zombie *** (very slow movement)(infravision)(undead)(Attacks: physical)(Immune: fear)(Protected: cold) --- *** wraith *** (normal movement)(infravision)(undead)(pass through doors)(Attacks: cold, ghosthit)(Immune: fear)(Protected: cold)(Vulnerable: fire) --- *** wight *** (slow movement)(infravision)(undead)(Attacks: physical, fear)(Immune: cold, fear)(Protected: electricity) endmsg exp 360 level 15 value 3600 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll name treatise title of the mystic veil msg Herein are detailed the names of prayers belonging to the path of Information: perceive self, detect evil, detect curse, show invisible endmsg exp 51 level 17 value 510 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll name list title of evil nature msg This beastiary contains: --- *** Evil Master *** (lightning fast movement)(armour+60)(see invisible)(wear ring)(read scroll)(fire wand)(spellcaster)(unaggressive)(Attacks: physical, cold)(Immune: magical, fire, electricity, cold)(Protected: physical, magical) endmsg exp 90 level 15 value 900 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll_2 name testament title of cults msg This document contains knowledge concerning the diety Mostrai, known as Dwarven deity of metal smithing and warcraft, Giant basher and Delver of secrets . --- [Unfortunately the rest of the information is hopelessly garbled!] --- endmsg exp 13 level 7 value 136 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll name datebook title of Zagy msg endmsg exp 48 level 16 value 480 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch scroll name compendium title of astral byways msg Herein are detailed the names of incantations belonging to the path of Wounding: - no known spells exist - endmsg exp 57 level 19 value 570 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch improve_wis been_applied 1 end arch scroll name Warn scroll msg Open to the ocean, from the docks I cast the crown of our king. Strangely, it made no splash in the darkness. I wonder to this day if the crown rests at the bottom of the sea endmsg identified 1 been_applied 1 no_skill_ident 1 end arch improve_str nrof 2 been_applied 1 end arch scroll name list title of the living msg This beastiary contains: --- *** bat *** (fast movement)(levitate)(see invisible)(Protected: physical) --- *** behemoth *** (extremely fast movement)(Attacks: physical, poison)(Immune: fear)(Protected: magical) --- *** slime *** (very slow movement)(infravision) endmsg exp 102 level 17 value 1020 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch improve_pow nrof 2 been_applied 1 end arch improve_enchantment nrof 3 been_applied 1 end arch letter msg Dear Mr Redwood, As you are our town's best carpenter, could you have a look at the belltower of our church? That part of our church is quite old and I am afraid that a bell might fall down and hurt someone. endmsg identified 1 been_applied 1 no_skill_ident 1 end end arch rod_heavy face rod_heavy.113 hp 27 maxhp 27 sp 18 food 2 speed 0.250000 speed_left -0.586667 level 9 value 52500 state 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch rod_heavy name Rod of Fire face rod_heavy.113 hp 60 maxhp 60 sp 58 food 6 speed 0.250000 speed_left -0.738331 level 15 state 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch rod_light hp 7 maxhp 7 sp 138 level 12 value 8166 identified 1 inv_locked 1 end arch rod_light face rod_light.112 sp 157 speed 0.250000 speed_left -0.420000 level 16 state 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch rod_light face rod_light.113 hp 6 maxhp 6 sp 17 level 21 value 4200 state 2 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch reflector face reflector.113 armour 14 speed_left 0.150000 weight 22971 state 2 magic 5 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch helmet_of_brilliance armour 16 weight 8932 magic 5 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch mithril_chainmail face mithril_ar.113 armour 37 speed_left -0.690575 weight 13891 state 2 magic 5 last_sp 21 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch elvenboots armour 6 weight 606 magic 4 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch speedboots armour 14 speed_left 0.100000 weight 6379 magic 5 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 inv_locked 1 end arch flint_and_steel food 484 end arch torch_unlit nrof 5 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch immunity name scurvy level 5 known_magical 1 end arch immunity name flaming farts level 5 known_magical 1 end arch immunity name warts level 5 known_magical 1 end arch skill_hide end arch skill_sense_curse level 10 been_applied 1 end end o If you managed to compile Crossfire, include the output of "crossfire -o". Reading bmaps from /usr/games/crossfire/share/crossfire/bmaps...done (got 3513/3514/3514) Reading faces from /usr/games/crossfire/share/crossfire/faces...done Reading animations from /usr/games/crossfire/share/crossfire/animations...done. got (754) Reading archetypes from /usr/games/crossfire/share/crossfire/archetypes... arch-pass 1...Switching lex buffers Adding friendly object Evil Master, Bonehead. done Setting up archetable...done loading treasure...done arch-pass 2...done done Welcome to CrossFire, v0.95.8 Copyright (C) 1994 Mark Wedel. Copyright (C) 1992 Frank Tore Johansen. Can't open /usr/games/crossfire/share/crossfire/shutdown Non-standard include files: Datadir: /usr/games/crossfire/share/crossfire Localdir: /usr/games/crossfire/var/crossfire Perm file: /forbid Shutdown file: /shutdown Save player: Save mode: 0660 Playerdir: /players Itemsdir: /unique-items Use checksum: Tmpdir: /tmp Map max timeout: 1000 Map reset: Max objects: 6000 Use_calloc: Use_swap_stats: Explore mode: Shop listings: Random encounter: Max_time: 120000 IRIX co3017300-a 6.2 03131015 IP22 From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 3 19:55:11 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: few things (Weapons stuff and PR) Message-ID: This is dnh, but my work account, >Just note that -100 equals double damage, but +50 would be half damage. Sorry yeah, I was still thinking in terms of the old system. 50 resistance is not the same as protected 50%. >But I agree - some races could very well get minor resistances (plus and minus). However, if they are minor enough, there >may not be a big point. Following this logic there is little point in having spears, axes etc. Because a sword is better anyway. Minor differences make characters more unique and closer to the "actual" races =). >As I said on IRC, for non damaging attacktypes, currently the protection value >you have just affects the saving through. This could/should perhaps be modified >to reduce duration as well. Yup, I think it should reduce duration as well if you can do that. >1) hit player would need to be modified to pass the weapon that is doing the >attack. This may not actually be bad - for things like spells, the spell effect >could be passed, with hitter being the owner of that. Erm, well I was planning on basically rewriting the attack code (My brother, njh, will be able to help me do this). This is because there are currently several fatal flaws that will become apparent when we add multiple weapons etc. >2) The weapons themselves would need a weapon_speed_left of the like (or maybe >just use speed). Then when the player attempts to attack something, you would >need to find all the weapons in the player inventory and pass them along. But >to do this efficiently, you really need to have a pointer in the player >structure pointing to the characters active weapons - you do not want to have to >search the players inventory for the equipped weapon each time they attack. >Presumably, only players could use two weapons, so this is not a big deal. This is exactly how I planed on doing it =). >3) For the special attack skills, you have to be careful. You certainly can't >use fire touch if you have weapons in both hands. To go with the pointers to >ready weapons, you probably need an array then if you plan to support an >arbitirary number of weapons. No creature other than a fireborn has or probably will have firetouch. The fireborn can't use weapons, I can't see the issue of having weapons in both hands being a problem. =) >4) As for two shields - unfortunately, there is no size listing for shield. I >think for 'realism' and balance, only let them use one shield at a time. Erm, if you were a hero and you got backed into a corner and all you had was two shields, realistically would you use them? I know I would. I think it adds a certain flair and realism if a player can equip whatever he wants in his hands. In hindsight shields are currently quite poor with only 2 - 3 being of any great use especially in comparison to the high powered weapons around. I really think we should not put blocks on anything that uses hands, fair is fair. >the formula for weapon speed (common/living.c, around line 1220 with the PR >code): This is what I wanted to know, in particular this -> common/living.c =). I was looking around in attack.c and time.c =) >Unfortunately, the way it does it right now isn't that good... This i know, this I intend to change =))) "I don't like the idea of limited rate - the current problem is that bows are considered useless, and its too much a pain to haul around 500 arrows. I personally don't see any problem with unlimited ability to pull out arrows at whatever speed is needed. But I think the arrows should just be normal arrows, so you may still have use to pick up those magical arrows, arrows of slaying, and so forth. Something like this could be useful starting equipment for a archer type class." Yup, it took 48 arrows for Peterm to kill a raas yesterday =| Well i mainly suggested the cool down period for anyone who was worried about unlimited arrows being unbalanced. Personally I think archery is a wasted skill right now, in most RPG games I love to get the old bow and and pepper things before they get in range, in crossfire this is just not possible. Unlimited arrows are direly needed IMHO, whether they be slower or not. As I said I leave this open to anyone, but I wouldn't think it would be to hard to implement at all. I recently added 3 new bows, the purpose of which was to allow alittle more balancing in archery. If anyone is unhappy with their speeds, please do change them, the values I suggested were because I like to have realistic firing, and I didn't think firing 5 arrows in a second really very "realistic". If this is annoying change it.. I would like to see the "bow" all but removed and replaced by the range of bows I have created "Hunters, Composite and Longbow". As I have said to Peterm on many occasions, I would really love to see an archery caste and haved made alot of changes to archery to make the caste "worth while" as archery was so poor at the time Peter felt there little point in such a caste. I am quite happy to draw up graphics for an archer, and having unlimited quivers would be one of the best things archery could have currently. On the same theme, I believe we should split missile weapons into, throwing and archery. Firing a bow is VERY different to throwing a dagger let me assure you. dnh From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Dec 4 11:49:52 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: few things (Weapons stuff and PR) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:55:11 +1100." Message-ID: <200012041749.JAA09113@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > Yup, it took 48 arrows for Peterm to kill a raas yesterday =| No, I hit it with 48 arrows (counted in its inventory after its death), and THEN I killed it with lightning. I think it was an issue of a Raas's con --> regen rate > arrow damage rate. I was using the most powerful bow in the game, too: the Bow of Auriga. > As I have said to Peterm on many occasions, I would really love to see an > archery caste and haved made alot of changes to archery to make the caste > "worth while" as archery was so poor at the time Peter felt there little > point in such a caste. I am quite happy to draw up graphics for an archer, > and having unlimited quivers would be one of the best things archery could > have currently. On the same theme, I believe we should split missile weapons > into, throwing and archery. Firing a bow is VERY different to throwing a > dagger let me assure you. Here we've got this realism problem again. Yeah, it's more realistic. Yeah, it's more stuff for the player (and us coders) to manage. Maybe it's worth doing, but I don't think so. And if they both go into the physical experience category, I can find NO reason to split them. Who throws stuff anyway? PeterM From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Mon Dec 4 16:24:17 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: The journey of the attack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could someone do me a massive favour and tell me exactly how crossfire currently runs when a player first attacks. I would like to be able to trace the path so that I can add a few thing to it (like check for multiple weaponary etc). My current plan is to add code so that the server first checks if the players has multiple weapons, then runs the two attacks uniquely. It would be alot more efficent to only check once for multiple weapons, then run the attack code. Code would have to be added so that crossfire keeps track of when a player changes his weaponary around, and would have to check again. Ideas? As the attack speed is just the number of times it rolls a dice each time you move into a monster, the code will not have to be modified at all. For gameplay I also intend to tell the client where each attack is coming from. Ie Dagger: You make a bonecrunching sound.. axe: you atomize Goblin..... This will hopefully give players a better idea of the differences with weapon speed (thus reducing the need to change units). Also, I would like some help on where I should stick the code that keeps track of how many hands a player has free. This I would assume would be done by running through the inventory and counting how many hands. If the player has two many hands used it will deequip the first item that uses hands. Seems fairly simple (although I have no idea how to do it yet ;). I would dearly love to look at the code that currently sorts through the inventory (there used to be one in god intervention). Once I get the latest CVS the first target I have is living.c . The Code is terrible I can't follow 3 lines of it before I have to refer back somewhere. If Mark hasn't already, I will go through comment it throughly and move things like varibles from the start to the place that they are used. For instance in the version that I have, 7 or 8 varibles are defined at the start, but aren't used until line 1250 and aren't really needed anyway (in particular S). In that same area (line 1250 or so) there are formulas that appear to have subtractions that can be removed from the fraction. I assume they are inside the fraction because the coder wanted to use integers instead of floats but in this case it would be faster to use floats anyway. To Pete and Mark: Can you guys come on IRC at around 6 oclock my time (10 oclock pm your time) so I can discuss standards through the code (naming etc), so I don't go and change something which is the common standard. Thanks muchly. dnh (Darth_bob) From mtx93 at tzi.de Mon Dec 4 18:02:11 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] run mode Message-ID: Hi I have a little problem with the run mode in my client. What i want is, to set the runmode permanent with the 'r' key and 'virtual' with the alt key. So, if you press the ALT key, you should send moves in run mode with run xxx. If you drop ALT key, you should back in normal mode. With 'r' you should set the server in run mode. Hit again, no run mode. Also, if you hit ALT in fix run mode, you should go back to normal mode, if you have fix set it with 'r'. This is nice, because you can hold on in a run, do something and run along again. This work fine, but you must send a single 'run' cmd if you hit ALT or 'r' key. The other clients don't do this. If you don't do it, the client starts get side effects if you hit 'r' with hold on ALT key and so on. But if you send a 'run' without moving you get a "you can't push yourself" msg. This should be removed. Then, i can show the player always the true server status. MichToen From andi.vogl at gmx.net Mon Dec 4 20:33:30 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Uuh... compile errors - neverthless, PR is great! Message-ID: <000001c05e63$c4b5dcc0$f19de23e@kyle> I played around with the new partial protections (PR) a bit. It?s really great, well done! In my opinion that is a leap forward in CF-development. Too bad, I had to face quite a lot of trouble when I tried to install crossfire (server) of todays CVS. (My last update was about a week ago, moreover I upgraded my OS). My current OS is SuSE Linux 7.0, here?s what happened during the compilation/installation process: (I?m not complaining, I just try to provide information so that this can be fixed ;-) ) o ./configure: worked fine o make depend: dumped *heaps* of errormessages, looking like: -------- /usr/include/unistd.h:967: macro or `#include' recursion too deep In file included from ../include/includes.h:76, from ../include/global.h:36, from button.c:28: /usr/include/unistd.h:300: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:301: macro or `#include' recursion too deep [etc, etc...] In file included from ../include/includes.h:76, from ../include/global.h:36, from button.c:28: /usr/include/unistd.h:967: macro or `#include' recursion too deep [etc...] --------- For godssake, this did not really affect the make-process. Maybe I could even do without "make depend" anyways, never tried though. Still I have not the slightest idea why this happened. o make: First error: crossedit/xutil.c, Line 39: #include "png.c" There is NO png.c on my whole HD. After being stunned for a while I figured out that there is a png.c file in the CF-client code. Downloaded that, put into the crossedit/ dir and modified xutil.c so that it can cope with the functions from my new png.c file. Of course this was a dirty fix. Anyways, I?m quite curious how this was *supposed* to work on any OS? Real weird. Second error: main.c Line 154: function des_crypt() not defined. Reason: The #ifdefs deciding between "des_crypt()" and "crypt()" just plain failed. When looking into /usr/include/des.h one can see that it?s possible to have des.h existing and included but still no des_crypt() defined. Bad luck, this happened on *my* OS. Easy to fix for me, but not so easy to make it work on every OS... o make install: uses the following compile flags: gcc -g -02 (X_EXTRA_CFLAGS) -I../include [...] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "(X_EXTRA_CFLAGS)" is not an acceptable flag for gcc, at least on my system. So I had to open the makefile and delete these extra-cflags. Seems to be new stuff, never seen it before. I would greatly appreciate some help on these issues. I managed to apply some personal workarounds, but that doesn?t mean I?m able to come up with proper fixes for CVS right away (bummer). Especiall since my expertise on make-files is damn low... =/ Andreas V. From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 4 20:52:17 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Uuh... compile errors - neverthless, PR is great! References: <000001c05e63$c4b5dcc0$f19de23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A2C5861.88108F09@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > o make depend: dumped *heaps* of errormessages, looking like: > -------- > /usr/include/unistd.h:967: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > In file included from ../include/includes.h:76, > from ../include/global.h:36, > from button.c:28: > /usr/include/unistd.h:300: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:301: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > [etc, etc...] > In file included from ../include/includes.h:76, > from ../include/global.h:36, > from button.c:28: > /usr/include/unistd.h:967: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > [etc...] > --------- > For godssake, this did not really affect the make-process. Maybe > I could even do without "make depend" anyways, never tried though. > Still I have not the slightest idea why this happened. This is obnoxious, but not really an error. my personal opinion is that this is a problem with the C library or make depend. On my system in fact (running glibc 2.2), I had to modify one of the files in /usr/include because it had a line like: #define stderr stderr which makedepend barf's on - I wouldn't really be concerned with that, except that data it then dumps into the Makefiles is bad. > > o make: > First error: crossedit/xutil.c, Line 39: #include "png.c" Fixed (or should be). I thought I had added that file to the cvs repository, but apparantly that commit didn't take or I forgot the cvs add. > Second error: main.c Line 154: function des_crypt() not defined. > Reason: The #ifdefs deciding between "des_crypt()" and "crypt()" > just plain failed. When looking into /usr/include/des.h one can > see that it?s possible to have des.h existing and included but > still no des_crypt() defined. Bad luck, this happened on *my* OS. > Easy to fix for me, but not so easy to make it work on every OS... I think I have a better check in the configure.in - when checking for libdes, it will also check to see that des_crypt is in it. Unfortunately, none of the systems I use (redhat linux or solaris) have/use libdes by default, so this is only something I and attempt to adjust based on feedback and hope I get it right. . > > o make install: uses the following compile flags: > gcc -g -02 (X_EXTRA_CFLAGS) -I../include [...] > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > "(X_EXTRA_CFLAGS)" is not an acceptable flag for gcc, at least > on my system. So I had to open the makefile and delete these > extra-cflags. Seems to be new stuff, never seen it before. Found the bug for that - will check in a change shortly (sometime this evening). The makefile.in had some ($XX_...) instead of $(XX_...) entries in it. From mtx93 at tzi.de Mon Dec 4 23:26:27 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:24 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] new run and fire mode Message-ID: Hi I just do some fine tuning on my client and i include the ALT key as run key and CTRL as fire key. I run in some glitches using them. The problem is, that trigger the key and firing an arrow for example trigger the auto fire mode of the server. For all who don't know: There is no way at the moment to do a single arrow shoot. All times the server do someting like this: client do: fire / turns the auto fire mode of the server on -> server sends the FIREON flags in the STATS cmd fire_stop // server sends this to avoid multiple fire -> server sends cleared flags in STATS back ... and so on If you have some lags, this kills the bow skill. Also, you want shoot a row of assassination arrows. You run in, give out 2-3 fast shots and run away (good tactic in front of some dragons.) The same for the clients: run cmd turn automatically on the autorun mode. Also, the clients try to track down the server stats. The windows client has none ALT/CTRL use and the x client for example use a mix of client stats and server stats to track down the mode stat. I want use the ALT key in a way, you can toggle the standard run mode for the client. If you in "go mode" , ALT toggle the run. If pressed you run, if you drop it, you hold on. If you press 'r', you are in autorun mode. ALT then should stop the run, and if you release, you should run again in the same direction (or new if you press a different direction). Same should work with fire mode. Run in, press CTRL, fire 2 times in direction, release CTRL and run away. Problem is, that it don't work, if you run. So you cant run in, press CTRL then, fire 2 times and run away releasing CTRL. This all will bring the bow skill and moving/run handling in all in a new better way. But the old system with fixed run/fire mode on the server will not serve it! But its easy to fix! Skip the run mode / fire mode on the server. Lets it all on client side! With this, we can handle the problem! - We don't need the run mode trigger on the server! In fact, you can skip it with the client today too. Just send all times you have a pressed ALT key or a set 'run_on' a run cmd and let the client run in the direction! run_stop will called in normal way, but will end the current run in the current direction (= stop). Also, a simple 'move will end it too! This will avoid cmds, will avoid side effects and all is like before. - Same for fire mode. fire always toggle the fire_on on the server, so you need to send a fire_stop before you can do anything different. Skip this. Then you can run in, fire and run out. Plus, if the server gets a run followed by a fire the server should stop moving and fire the arrow in the direction. There is no real need for the fire mode, where you stand and fire fast as possible, except praying. Bow skill should do more damage, this nail the character on a place and fire like a maschine gun in all directions is a bad style to play. The game is growing above this. If we change it in the way i describe, we can make the moving/firing thing much more exact and better to handle, also we can speed up things a little bit. If you has a lag, the single fire mode is a real pain in all asses. Also, it will make client handling of running and firing much more clearer and easier. MichToen From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 4 23:38:47 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: few things (Weapons stuff and PR) References: <200012041749.JAA09113@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A2C7F67.D9DB4000@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > > As I have said to Peterm on many occasions, I would really love to see an > > archery caste and haved made alot of changes to archery to make the caste > > "worth while" as archery was so poor at the time Peter felt there little > > point in such a caste. I am quite happy to draw up graphics for an archer, > > and having unlimited quivers would be one of the best things archery could > > have currently. On the same theme, I believe we should split missile weapons > > into, throwing and archery. Firing a bow is VERY different to throwing a > > dagger let me assure you. > > Here we've got this realism problem again. Yeah, it's more realistic. > Yeah, it's more stuff for the player (and us coders) to manage. > Maybe it's worth doing, but I don't think so. And if they both go > into the physical experience category, I can find NO reason to split them. > Who throws stuff anyway? You could part archery into the ability based category. Not sure if that would be good or not. There are certainly lots of way to make archery more potent. An archer class could do more damage as they gain levels (1 dam/level when using a bow or something, up to a maximum point), the ability to make good arrows as needed, or so on. The problem is how to do that and still keep some things balanced (ie, if you add a lot more good arrows, other classes could get them also). Probably the best way to make archery better would be to have arrows with spell effects - ie, you fire an arrow of fireball, and any kills go to your archery skill category. But once again, if those arrows are readily available, it doesn't help the archery class. It also sort of reduces the necessity of the mage and other classes. From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 5 00:02:10 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: few things (Weapons stuff and PR) References: Message-ID: <3A2C84E2.E121D0B8@scruz.net> David Hurst wrote: > >But I agree - some races could very well get minor resistances (plus and > minus). However, if they are minor enough, there > >may not be a big point. > > Following this logic there is little point in having spears, axes etc. > Because a sword is better anyway. Minor differences make characters more > unique and closer to the "actual" races =). My point is more than if you just have 5% protections/vulnerabilities, the sort of create more clutter than actual use. That 5% isn't going to make a hill of beans difference, but is another value the player may notice. It also adds more confusion to choosing a race (only so many protections can be shown in the client). This isn't a big deal, just a minor point. > >3) For the special attack skills, you have to be careful. You certainly > can't > >use fire touch if you have weapons in both hands. To go with the pointers > to > >ready weapons, you probably need an array then if you plan to support an > >arbitirary number of weapons. > > No creature other than a fireborn has or probably will have firetouch. The > fireborn can't use weapons, I can't see the issue of having weapons in both > hands being a problem. =) But there are some other hand based skills like karate and punching you have to be careful about. You can't use punching if you have a weapon and shield in hand. > Erm, if you were a hero and you got backed into a corner and all you had was > two shields, realistically would you use them? I know I would. I think it > adds a certain flair and realism if a player can equip whatever he wants in > his hands. In hindsight shields are currently quite poor with only 2 - 3 > being of any great use especially in comparison to the high powered weapons > around. I really think we should not put blocks on anything that uses hands, > fair is fair. > But if both of those shields were tower shields for example, it probably isn't very realistic (or effective) to try and use both of those at the same time. More so if your character is a dwarf or halfling. Bow thoughts (in addition to previous message): There are several reasons bows don't find use (IMO): 1) By the time you see your enemy, its close enough you only get a few shots before he's on you. 2) too many things block the flight of arrows, like most water and other 'impassable' objects. End result being is that prime places where you might want to use a bow doesn't work out. 3) The things you tend to want to pick off with bows are the type of things that have range weapons in return (breath weapons, spells) which usually do more damage than your bow does. 4) To followup #3 above, most artifact weapons are so much better than bows, going hand to hand is almost always preferable way of killing things. Some of these things can be fixed in various ways. #1 might be helped out by increasing the viewable size of the game map, which is one of those things on the TODO list. But even with the revised sizes (17x17, 21x21 or whatever), that still ends up being 8 or 10 spaces - still not a lot of shots, especially for most of the monsters you are likely to take on. From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 5 00:19:43 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] new run and fire mode References: Message-ID: <3A2C88FF.E2A516F0@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: Pretty much all you describe is client issues. notes follow: > For all who don't know: There is no way at the moment to > do a single arrow shoot. All times the server do someting like > this: > > client do: > fire / turns the auto fire mode of the server on > -> server sends the FIREON flags in the STATS cmd > fire_stop // server sends this to avoid multiple fire > -> server sends cleared flags in STATS back > ... and so on Simple. HAve your client just send a fire followed immediately by a fire_stop command. That should get you one arrow. > > If you have some lags, this kills the bow skill. Also, you want shoot a row > of > assassination arrows. You run in, give out 2-3 fast shots and run away (good > tactic > in front of some dragons.) But it goes both ways. IF the client just sends 'fire direction' for each arrow fired, lag in sending those commands to the server results in arrows not being fired at their full potential. Its tough to determine what the right behaviour is. You can have fine control but perhaps not do things to the full potential, or you could have a case where you loose the fine control, but blat as much as possible in that time frame. > > The same for the clients: run cmd turn automatically on the autorun mode. > Also, the clients > try to track down the server stats. The windows client has none ALT/CTRL use > and the x client > for example use a mix of client stats and server stats to track down the > mode stat. I don't completely parse what you are talking about. Note that run mode is no different than normal movement, except for the 'keep moving in direction x until I get a new direction or a run_stop'. Once again, this was a performance issue. I've been working on the client a long time, and can tell you some of the old behaviour. Before a run mode, the behaviour was to just send the appropriate direction commands as long as the run & key is pressed. The problem is syncrhonization issue. If the player speed is 0.5, you end up sending a fair number of commands a head of the client, so after you stop pressing that key, the client may have sent 10 movement to the server that have yet to be processed. OTOH, if you use a slower rate but the player speed is 1.2 for example, then the player does not move to the full potential, as the client may only send them effectively at speed 0.7. This gets trickier as information reported for player speed is highly variable. Moving accross rough terrain, you effectively have a slower speed, but that is all taken care of in the server and movement code. Note the addition of the run and fire status in the stats command was simply to better let the player know what is going on in terms of server state. Client is free to keep its own state and show that to the player. Client is not required to report all data that may be sent to it. > > I want use the ALT key in a way, you can toggle the standard run mode for > the client. If you in "go mode" > , ALT toggle the run. If pressed you run, if you drop it, you hold on. > If you press 'r', you are in autorun mode. ALT then should stop the run, and > if you release, you should > run again in the same direction (or new if you press a different direction). > Same should work with fire mode. Run in, press CTRL, fire 2 times in > direction, release CTRL and run away. > Problem is, that it don't work, if you run. So you cant run in, press CTRL > then, fire 2 times and run away > releasing CTRL. Sounds all like a client issue to me. Client should keep state of its different keys and send the appropriate run and fire commands. Note that the server tracking of run and fire states on the server was not originally done - the original theory was that the server should track a minimal state of the client, but for performance reasons, it was added. > Skip the run mode / fire mode on the server. Lets it all on client side! > With this, we can handle > the problem! > > - We don't need the run mode trigger on the server! In fact, you can skip it > with the client > today too. Just send all times you have a pressed ALT key or a set > 'run_on' a run > cmd and let the client run in the direction! run_stop will called in > normal way, but will end the > current run in the current direction (= stop). Also, a simple 'move > will end it too! > This will avoid cmds, will avoid side effects and all is like before. I still don't see any reason this can't be done without any changes to the server. But see notes above. > There is no real need for the fire mode, where you stand and fire fast as > possible, except praying. See notes above. > > Bow skill should do more damage, this nail the character on a place and fire > like a maschine gun > in all directions is a bad style to play. The game is growing above this. > > If we change it in the way i describe, we can make the moving/firing thing > much more exact and > better to handle, also we can speed up things a little bit. If you has a > lag, the single fire > mode is a real pain in all asses. See notes above. From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 5 00:49:03 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: The journey of the attack References: Message-ID: <3A2C8FDF.4E5FDB25@scruz.net> David Hurst wrote: > > Could someone do me a massive favour and tell me exactly how crossfire > currently runs when a player first attacks. > I would like to be able to trace the path so that I can add a few thing to > it (like check for multiple weaponary etc). My current plan is to add code > so that the server first checks if the players has multiple weapons, then > runs the two attacks uniquely. It would be alot more efficent to only check > once for multiple weapons, then run the attack code. Code would have to be > added so that crossfire keeps track of when a player changes his weaponary > around, and would have to check again. Ideas? As the attack speed is just > the number of times it rolls a dice each time you move into a monster, the > code will not have to be modified at all. For gameplay I also intend to tell > the client where each attack is coming from. Ie Dagger: You make a > bonecrunching sound.. axe: you atomize Goblin..... This will hopefully give > players a better idea of the differences with weapon speed (thus reducing > the need to change units). General path is as follows: server/main.c - process_players1 and process_players2 deals with player movement and setting their speed. server/player.c - handle_newcs_player - deals with reading data from socket (or requests to do so), and moving the character. server/player.c - move_player deals with player trying to move, which then calls move_player_attack in teh same file. If we can't move to the destination space, check the destination space for a an attackable object. If we find one, we then call skill_attack, which finds appropriate skill and sets it up, and then calls attack_ob, which really calls attack_ob_simple. That function then sees if we actually managed to hit the object and does a bunch of other stuff. thats the main order of thingss > Also, I would like some help on where I should stick the code that keeps > track of how many hands a player has free. This I would assume would be done > by running through the inventory and counting how many hands. If the player > has two many hands used it will deequip the first item that uses hands. > Seems fairly simple (although I have no idea how to do it yet ;). I would > dearly love to look at the code that currently sorts through the inventory > (there used to be one in god intervention). Going through inventory is pretty simple. You could look at the ring code to see how it does it. But one thing ring code does not do is keep track of what is in what hand - it just knows you can have two rings equipped, so if you try to equip another, it unequips one (probably the first one found in your inventory). this is a minor inconvenience (unfortunately, there is really no good way to say what hand you want to put a ring on even if we did track what is on what hand). Thinking about this, the proposed two weapon code & multiple shields will seem to greatly complicate that. If I have sword and shield equipped and try to equip a different sword, should that unequip the shield and go two weapon, or should it unequip the current weapon I have? Likewise, if I do try to theoretically equip a new shield, does it replace the current one or assume I want to go dual shield? Thinking about this, I would strongly suggest that the first thing you should add is two handed weapons (great swords and so on). This will get you familiar with the code and should require a fairly small amount of code change (ie, apply code gets changed to unequip current weapon & shield, and likewise if you try to equip one of those, it unequips your weapon). This doesn't get you that far down the attack code path, but will at least get you familiar with the apply code. > > Once I get the latest CVS the first target I have is living.c . The Code is > terrible I can't follow 3 lines of it before I have to refer back somewhere. > If Mark hasn't already, I will go through comment it throughly and move > things like varibles from the start to the place that they are used. For > instance in the version that I have, 7 or 8 varibles are defined at the > start, but aren't used until line 1250 and aren't really needed anyway (in > particular S). In that same area (line 1250 or so) there are formulas that > appear to have subtractions that can be removed from the fraction. I assume > they are inside the fraction because the coder wanted to use integers > instead of floats but in this case it would be faster to use floats anyway. Err, this is tricky. You can only declare new variables inside a { grouping, and they only survive (accessible) within that group. Standard ANSI C does not allow arbitrary declaration of variables wherever you want them like C++. Personally, I prefer for variables to be declared at the top of the function unless they are really local to a small area - at least if I'm looking to see where a variable is declared and how its declared, I look at the top of the function first. some formulas may be broken up like that simply to make the formula clearer to read. For example, if you take: K=1 + M/3.0 - W/(3*M2) + op->speed/5.0 + D/2.0; And expand M, W, M2, and D, you may now get a three line formula that is much harder to read (for example, doing a quick glance, I can see that D is basically a bonus for high dex, and M and M2 are adjustments based on character strength/carrying caacity, and W is weapon weight). Also, any good compiler/optimizer will collapse it and automaticaly remove the unused variables. I will strongly state: Write code for clarity. Performance is certainly an issue, but in most functions, the compiler will probably do as good a job as you can do. The real thing is to beware of things that can't be optimized very wall and do take time (like traversing object lists) From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 5 01:21:55 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] problem with crossedit make and fire spells References: <200012021217.XAA43452@alpha.chemwatch.net> Message-ID: <3A2C9793.1AA7700E@scruz.net> Karl Geppert wrote: > crossedit: $(OBJS) ../common/libcross.a Cnv/libCnv.a > $(RM) -f $@ > $(CC) -o $@ $(OBJS) ../common/libcross.a $(LIBS) Cnv/libCnv.a > > LibCnv.a requires the libXt symbols, so the actual compile line needs to > have the $(LIBS) last I've fixed that up. > The second problem is an annoyance within the game. This problem has been > apparent for the last three versions of crossfire. Every other time my > character is loaded, it cannot use fire spells. Every second time it is > loaded, it can. (eg start the game, no fire spells, use a bed-to-reality > and start again and fire spells are available). The character is a > legacy character from sometime in the 0.7 range (I've been playing this for a > long time - good job on making a good game). You have a talisman of frost that will prevent you from using fire spells. There is an old bug which equips the first skill item of relevance it finds when attempting to cast a spell. The pecularity you see is because the each time a character is saved, the inventory is reversed. I've made a change that should fix this - I need to test it a little bit more before I commit it. Basically, it will look for a native skill first when attempting to use a skill, and then should fall back to a skill item. This may not be ideal - if you have lockpicks, they may give you a straight advantage and no penalty, so you would always want to use them. But if the server is going to choose a skill for you, I would think it should choose a native skill first. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Tue Dec 5 11:13:59 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] weapons, archery... and stuff Message-ID: <000001c05ede$c36990c0$04a5e23e@kyle> My own humble opinion about a few things that have been discussed lately... First, I?m sorry but I don?t like the idea of wielding two weapons (or shields) at once too much. It would make the attack code very complicated for little outcome: Nobody would want to use a shield anymore. (Artifact) weapons grant far more protections than shields. And even more, killing a monsters faster is so much more useful than anything that could come with a shield. Two-handed weapons could be nice though. As long as they do nothing special except "blocking" the use of shields. In return, these weapons could have extra-good stats. About the use of bows: Sure, archery still does suck right now. ;) I think the main problem is that bows must always compete with weapon attacks. If it?s much easier to kill with weapon, why use a bow? I don?t like the idea of creatig a seperate archery-skill cathegory either, nor the use of spells on arrows. That would just cause other conflicts (magic <-> archery). There?s no use for two similar ways to kill monsters, players will always choose the easier one. I?d prefer to leave the missile-weapons-scheme as it is now, but focus more on it?s unique possibilities. There could be some real powerful arrows/bolts in shops somewhere, for a fair price. The alch. receipes for the slaying/assassinating arrows need some modifications too. And the damage of projectiles in general should rise. That reminds me... of the reflect-spell/missile fix that still needs to be done (is it?). I believe there was a positive consens for the following scheme: > Jan E. wrote: > > > I suggest implementing the following protections/immunities: > > arrows/thrown objects: 80% > > spell missiles: 90% > > bolt spells: 100% > > finger of death: 100% > > "smite" spells: 90% Is there actually anyone up to coding this? If not, I?ll try if I can do it myself someday. Andreas V. From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 13:37:05 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] new run and fire mode (and throw mode) - read this In-Reply-To: <3A2C88FF.E2A516F0@scruz.net> Message-ID: > Pretty much all you describe is client issues. Well, no. :) I want make it to a client issue, but at the moment, its on server side. Of course you must track it on client side too, but for the run mode, its set on server side. 'run', 'fire', 'run_stop' and 'fire_stop' are commands who are not needed, if you put the run/fire managment to the client. I will describe downwards how you can avoid them, kick the fire and run mode, integrate the throw command like the fire command and remove a rod/bow glitch. Look at the cast command. What it is doing? In fact, it TELLS the server to simply ready the spell for use for fire command. Same here: it does NOTHING on client side. Its only use is it, to tell the server the readied spell for a following fire command mode! > Note that run mode is no different than normal movement, except > for the 'keep > moving in direction x until I get a new direction or a run_stop'. > Once again, > this was a performance issue. It is different, because the server sets himself in run mode for every run he gets which you must explicit end with a run_stop. So, like i say above, the run mode is server side, not client side at the moment. > The problem is syncrhonization issue. If the player speed is > 0.5, you end up > sending a fair number of commands a head of the client, so after you stop > pressing that key, the client may have sent 10 movement to the > server that have > yet to be processed. Yes, thats the point, i will not change it. read downwards. Ok, i work a lot the last days with the client and run/fire and i find some glitches and as i think about it i find out, that the 'run', 'fire', and the stops for it are unnecessary commands who can be skipped. Also, the throw command is "not very often used" in the game. :) Truth: NO one really use throwing potions or someting else in fight. I want change it. Also, there is a glitch in bow/rod use but also with spells. The bad point is the way, the RANGE works. In case of rod / bow it is confusing you can apply both, but ready only one for RANGE, the last one. Ok, the prinzip is clear, but i dont like it! If you apply a bow, then you should use it and only it, when you FIRE a range weapon because you have applied it! Same for a rod. How often you fight with a bow, then you use a rod of perceive. Then a bad monster comes. You know what happens? Right, you try to fire your bow, but wait, your rod of perceive is aktive and tells you, that you are dead. :) This or nearly same one happens often to me or others. What i want is: 1. Make crossfire more popular 2. remove 'run' and 'run_stop, 'fire' and 'fire_stop' and the fire/run mode of the server (read downwards: remove means only the mode, NOT the way the run/fire works) 3. Use of the throw command same like fire command 4. remove rod/bow as both can be applied at the same moment. 5. Remove the CAST command (hehe, not really, but you should use ready instead) (also, a new interface for cast/ready a spell) For all which stays braindead now: no Issue will really change the way the game works, it will simply put the managment to the client, remove some confusing points and make things easier to understand (for newbies) and better to handle (for us programmer in the future). I will make for every point a single thread/mail. MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 13:49:02 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: few things (Weapons stuff and PR) In-Reply-To: <3A2C7F67.D9DB4000@scruz.net> Message-ID: > > Peter Mardahl wrote: > > > As I have said to Peterm on many occasions, I would really > love to see an > > > archery caste and haved made alot of changes to archery to > make the caste > > > "worth while" as archery was so poor at the time Peter felt > there little > > > point in such a caste. I am quite happy to draw up graphics > for an archer, > > > and having unlimited quivers would be one of the best things > archery could > > > have currently. On the same theme, I believe we should split > missile weapons > > > into, throwing and archery. Firing a bow is VERY different to > throwing a > > > dagger let me assure you. > > > > Here we've got this realism problem again. Yeah, it's more realistic. > > Yeah, it's more stuff for the player (and us coders) to manage. > > Maybe it's worth doing, but I don't think so. And if they both go > > into the physical experience category, I can find NO reason to > split them. > > Who throws stuff anyway? > > You could part archery into the ability based category. Not > sure if that would > be good or not. Hm, this will effect game play, but not the handling/damage problem we have. > There are certainly lots of way to make archery more potent. An > archer class > could do more damage as they gain levels (1 dam/level when using a bow or > something, up to a maximum point), the ability to make good > arrows as needed, or > so on. Thats the way i think about: Not make mashine gun shots. Its hard to hit a monster correct with a bow from distance (if it is a dangerous monster). In my opinion, a bow fighter should have the same damage list like a guy with a holy servant or a avatar (with god spells) or fireball or someting (as mage). Talking about game play means, giving hin the same potential. Means, killing a skull with the same effort as a mage/priest with same equipment/level. This will only work, if you kill then greater monster with 2-3 shots. You will then make a lot of more damage like with hand, but you must do more for it. The 'real' balance is to count the dead monster of level x in time y with used equipment z. If you think so, you must do a lot of damage with bow, because hand to hand with run mode is faster and spells has more area effects. If you can make the 'kill ratio' equal to fighter/spell, you has bring the bow back in game. > The problem is how to do that and still keep some things > balanced (ie, if you > add a lot more good arrows, other classes could get them also). > > Probably the best way to make archery better would be to have > arrows with spell > effects - ie, you fire an arrow of fireball, and any kills go to > your archery > skill category. But once again, if those arrows are readily available, it > doesn't help the archery class. It also sort of reduces the > necessity of the > mage and other classes. Well, be a bow man is a kind of game playing. It will never make spell caster unnecessary. As priest you has all the healing/cure stuff, as mage you has much more other spells, like fireball or snowstorm. No, it will give an alternative, it will not bring other races/chars down. _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel > From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 15:52:31 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] skip 'run'and 'run_stop' command and 'fire' and 'fire_stop' (read this first) Message-ID: Hi Goal of this is to make on programmer side the cmd structure clearer, on client side to give him more potential and on user side to make it easier. Also, the throw cmd will fit in this easier system. I will describe it later. Ok, this here means not to skip run mode, just the single command 'run' and 'run_stop', which is a client to server command to put the server in run mode (Also a run put him in run mode). You must after every running send a 'run_stop' to the server, if you want put the server back to normal move. The only reason for run mode on server side is, that now the server parse every cmd as a run . But thats nonsense. Skip the on server side the run mode. Means, if you get a run , all is like the server do it yet, except he don't stay in run mode. This means, if you get a run , the server runs in until it gets the , you do one step south and then stop, like you send a run_stop before. The point is, that you can put on client side the client in run mode, or toggle it with ALT. But if the client knows if the run mode is on, and he always must know it, he always can send a run (and all client do this) instead of a move . So, if you think about it, there is no need for the run/run_stop cmd. Ok, but run_stop? Simple, use stay. Thats what the stay command is for, stay after running or moving! (also, i wil use it in fire mode as fire_stop, this will work fine). One problem is, that when you are in run mode AND in fire mode, what happens with a south cmd? The idea is, that you put the client with ALT in run mode and with CTRL in fire mode. 'r' and 'f' let stay him always in fire/run mode and when you press CTRL/ALT then, it shut fire/run down until you release it. Somekind of inverse toggle then. I test it, and it worked good. Bad point is, that the clients don't use the run/fire mode flags from the server, they simply ignore it. More, they must work around it, because you can't send a single 'run' as run mode init for the server, because you run then in yourself. Also, one of top 5 questions of newbies is: 'how can i hit myself?' For fire, we can do the same. Ok, how it worked? Now you thing a started client. If you go south, you hit numpad key and a command south goes out. if you toggle run or ALT, the server always send run . Server runs now in the same way as you know it. Release ALT (send 'stay'), is send, server go one south and stop then. It works without any 'run' mode. The server never knows the client status. In real, it means that we ADD a cmd: a single is always a go now, different from run . ( that means, we don't need send many run to run in a single direction). Now, what happens, if we hit ALT and run south for example and then we hit CTRL? Now the fire mode is on. At the moment, nothing happens. But if you press a num key a fire is send. For the server it means you stop running and fire a single shot in new . For CF as action game, this will be great. ->fire cmd always overrule run cmd I prefer the single shot in this way. We CAN add mutiple shots, if we handle the set fire mode with 'f' as mutiple. What not all knows: In a command we can always send the numbers of repeats. So we can easily make a fire many times, and it is handled like the old style. Also, a 'stay' command skip this mutiple fire mode. As you see, we can skip 4 commands, make it all with the cmds we still has. dir = "north", "south", ... run fire stay The next point is, that 'run north' isn't a valid command, because the fire/run command use numbers instead of the strings. Also, this should be removed, to make a clear style line. Some words for glitches: the client never can handle all times the run/fire mode in the old system. If you toggle run mode, a south cmd in the cmd console will be 'run south'. Thats bad style, because it should be a step. Do this interactiv with the num pad is ok, but in the console, a go should be not run. You will see, that newbies and not so computer experienced people will have problems with it. (If you ever sell games, you will start think about things like this, because you will encounter that games magazines for example will talk about issues like this and not about the great gameplay. Its like the news in TV: the bad and stupid simple things are the interesting ones, the big issues and good things are out). From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 16:56:14 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] throw cmd, ready a range attack, bow and rod Message-ID: Hi The bad point of the throw cmd is, that we don't have any real control of what we can throw. Also, you must first send a throw command out, and then you throw items instead of firing... Also, if you have some arrow in inventory and a throwing axe, you will often throw the arrow. The trick is to mark a item in the inventory as "applied throw object" or not. You can mark more, then he get the first the server finds. This will work like the mark cmd or the lock cmd. We can do this also on client side only, but then the client must have a way to tell the server exactly what item will be thrown, a kind of throw command. This will then of course be hidden to the user. If we put it on server side, we need a new flag like lock or applied. But this will not be the big point. Another problem is, how you easily change the range attack kind? i don't like it, that the range type is changing when you do a simple "use_skill disarm traps" cmd for example. * Also here, this should NOT be set from server, it must be set from client. * a use_skill is not a ready_skill, so its bad if you use_skill lockpicking, the door opens and a monster stand in front of you. Now you hit CTRL to fire your mega bow... and try to lockpick the monster instead because the range shoottyp has changed... More crazy is, that when you invoke a spell then, the range type change to skill wizardry.... Happy fire time. I like only ONE kind of change: if the user do it! All other is confusing. This MUST go to total client control. Also, at the moment, you has as fire type: wand rod bow (applied weapon) nothing spell skill (more?) Thats way to much. As i explain, make only ONE slot for wand/rod and bow. You never handle all 3 or know what you has applied. Lets put the rotateshoottype on a nice key and make only this kind of range shoot types: weapon (bow, rod or wand - only one can applied at time - readied = when applied) spell (at the moment prepare or cast will ready a spell) throw (at the moment, you must explicit give the command first, but it must be in as default). skill (ready_skill is the proper cmd for it. It will be neccessary to show by the throw range the item which will be thrown. Weapon -> RANGE: bow ... or rod of... Spell -> RANGE: spell small fireball Throw -> RANGE: throw throwing daggers skill -> RANGE: skill oratory Again, only the user change the selected type. Means if you has toggle throw as range attack, applying a new bow will change weapon range type, but not changing the selected range type to weapon. This is much easier than old system, but much complex if you look to other games. Don't make it more complex! As i type, i got the idea about a nice item: What about a "throwing weapon of return"? You throw it, and it comes back. This can be handled in a very fancy way: If you throw a object like this, generate a duplicate which will be thrown. Set the item in the inventory on invisible with a timer. If the inv. timer expired (works like a bomb), the item get visible again and can be thrown again. This will avoid many glitches. You can destroy the thrown duplicate or delete it, it will for the player simply vanish and come back to inventory for him. Problem is, that this weapon will fit not as throw weapon. To handle this kind of weapon and has applied a bow is somewhat strange... MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 17:08:52 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] prepare, cast, invoke and ready_spell Message-ID: Hi As i start CF the real confusing thing was the cast cmd. In all other games and RPGs a cast means to invoke and fire the spell. In CF it means to ready it. Thats much confusing and all times a big problem for newbies. Thats not enough, we have also the prepare cmd which does the exactly same then the cast command. I prefer to make a major change to it: Cast should be cast, means it will fire a spell in . So it will be the invoke cmd, invoke will be dropped. Also drop prepare. Use ready_spell instead. Now we have with the new range system: weapon (apply item (bow or something) to ready it) throw (tag item with ready_throw (this will be a hidden cmd when using real tags) to ready it) skill (ready_skill...) spell (ready_spell ...) Now the names will be make much more sense! MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 17:31:57 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Ready_Spell and Ready_Skill menu, PR stats and skill exp values Message-ID: Hi Ok, lets go on. Now we have the problem, that we have much more spells and skills then keys. Also, i want waste a ready_skill to a key where i want see a invoke spell! Also, we ever has not enough keys. And you really remember where you has set your ready_spell protection of draining? What we need and what i always i will use in the dx client is a ready_spell and ready_skill menu. I you hit it, it will show you all the spells you know. it will work with fast keys. i Don't know what the best is: Making a bar above it with a-z. pressing a-z will show all spells starting with the first char as the same. if you hit 1-0 or SHIFT 1-0 (makes 20 slots) you ready it as spell. This will work fast and smooth and save you many keys. You will fast remember the 2 keys you has to hit for a certain spell. Also you have a REAL spell list. And we can add a EXPLANATION to every spell!! What we need is to send at game start the list of all spells. Also, every change of the list must be send to the client. At the moment i simply do a cast command as start for the list, problem is the update of the spells, for example when you get them from gods or when your spell path is not allowed. The spell explanation will give the player a short briefing about was the spell does. It will only be send if the player move the mouse about it and request it. Then the server is asked about it. Also, it will be cached for game time. This is strongly needed for newbies but also for experienced players when the spell is changed. The same for skills. This is a major task for client interface and user friendly work to make CF better. Also, its really simple to make, on client and also on server side. Also, the client should show the player the skill exp/level when changed (same like the normal exp and level). Also, the main PRs values. Fire, cold, acid, posion, elec, magic, slow, paralyze, fear. Perhaps we should show them your attack types too? MichToen MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 18:14:23 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:25 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Make Crossfire more Popular Message-ID: Hi Well, i think like all of us that crossfire is a great game. Its fun, its complex, is action. Sadly, it is the biggest non public open source project i ever see. Imagine, thats CF is one of the oldest running open source games ever. Only nethack and some of them are really older. And now look what we have. we have more open servers than playing user!!!!! Go through the server list, count the player online, we have often more servers open then players on it - on all servers! Its a shame. You ever look at http://www.mpogd.com/ ? Its the Multiplayer Online Game Directory. Search for crossfire. Cross...what? Also hard stoned unix gurus on my university, playing never a non unix game don't know crossfire. Why? There are a few reason. I will not talk about why this happens in the past and what it effect. I will talk about why it NOW not is and what we must change to get more people on it. First: Why should we have more people? After all, that this is a game for people, there is one major reason: More people= more potential supporters of the game, more potential artists, more potential map maker = better and growing CF! Second: How we can get more players? The points i will list are "not for discussion" (ok, you will do it ;). But aLL projects, all games needs to hail the points i will list. I work for 3 years as game programmer, i know it because i learned it. Skip one or more of this rules and you will be spanked for it. 1. simply access start and play. Thats the first rule. Players are idiots. User are idiots. They want play. They don't want think about anything else then the game itself. They don't want compile it first. They don't want set it up first. So, thanks to MW, we have in the future the meta server. This is one of the big points. Start the programm, get an autolist of the servers, look at the ping to get the best (to avoid lag = no fun= player drop CF) and start playing. 2. A Release For CF it means, we should build a 1.0 Version. Ok, ok, i know it what you will say, but really: CF is about 10 years old. There SHOULD be a 1.0 version. Lets make the next version to 1.0!! Why? People don't like to play beta! If you give it to them as 0.98 all people, also sites like MPOG will tell about CF as beta. Beta means more than not finished. It means not complete. CF is not finished but it is nearly complete. More complete than many other programms with much higher version numbers. Don't think that this point is not important. The player honors programmer who say: "this is version 1.0 but now stay tuned for version 1.1 where we will show you xx and yy". But they hate the programmers who never find an end, who always drop the last things the programm needs to be good, like a simple login screen (because there are other things to do which are more important). On programmers side there are ALWAYS more important things to do than a simple login screen or some like the meta server. But for the player, he will need weeks to make that the great BOOM spell don't kill the greyred dragons in the right way. But every day, he will get mad about the unfinished login screen. 3. PC and MAC client version Well, well. We have talk about it. But you wanna see some artist for CF? then you need an PC or MAC client. Artist hate unix. They have no use for it. They are dumb. They are want a computer like a MAC. Turn on, klick here, klick there, turn off. No console, no text to type, no knowledge about the computer, the running system (unix? what is unix? windows? you mean the windows on the screen with the fancy icons, right?). In real, most artist use MACs. about 40-60%. the rest use most times PCs with windows. Not why they like them, but most used renderers and gfx programms needed for them (and there work) run on it. Only about 5% use linux or unix. And these guys are freaks or programm to or something. Also, you want players and map makers? read above. 4. PNGs as default, better sound Yes, yes. But i have now work me through the pngs and have make about a few hundreds new or set the palette right. You know that most of the ugly pics are because the transparent color is not set right? For all grass, mountains and others full pics the color is false. I will give it to CVS when i finished the dx client. But really, now my png grafiks looks better then the xpm stuff!! Rework some of the items to original size and look looks great as png! For sound, i will out some better sounds i collect. 5. Maps We need a better map editor! We need it for PC and/or MAC too!! Many people like to make some maps when they play CF, but they will not work for years on it. So we must give them a nice and easy Tool for maps, collecting the maps and put then in the game! 6. More public Bring crossfire to MPOG and other gaming sites. On no one i know you will find CF! Simply do a searchmashine search and look what poor you get. Change it= more player, more server, more... You got the point. Ok, i have more points, but these are the most common. Lets make the PR changes and rework some maps. Lets me finish the DX client and rework the server/client issues i list. Put the meta server on. Then make Version 1.0 and bring it on the start to mpog and others. And then i swear you will see a nice list of servers with about 50-200 player on it. You don't believe? Look at MPOG and how many players there a good public game has. CF can beat many there! MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 5 20:17:31 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] mail box and bulletin board Message-ID: Hi Btw: what i really miss in CF, because its an old standard MUD are the feature to send a player a mail (character mail boxes) and a bulletin board, where all players can write something. MichToen From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 5 22:14:08 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Ready_Spell and Ready_Skill menu, PR stats and skill exp values References: Message-ID: <3A2DBD10.E4564572@scruz.net> > Also, the client should show the player the skill exp/level when changed > (same like the normal > exp and level). Also, the main PRs values. Fire, cold, acid, posion, elec, > magic, slow, paralyze, fear. I know it does the protections, as I coded that in. It will send also send draw_info messages to the client when the player gains skill levels. > Perhaps we should show them your attack types too? Player doesn't always know what these are (like if using an unidentified weapon). Granted, it may not be a lot to give away (for example, even with an unidentified weapon, it will adjust your other stats and get updated to the client). From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 5 23:06:25 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] throw cmd, ready a range attack, bow and rod References: Message-ID: <3A2DC951.B642B25D@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: > > Hi > > The bad point of the throw cmd is, that we don't have any real control of > what we can throw. > Also, you must first send a throw command out, and then you throw items > instead of firing... err, you can give an item name when you give the throw command. I haven't played around with it much. I believe when you run out of whatever item you specified, it goes on to an effectively random object again. Problem, for the most part, throw is even more useless than bows, as its slower, and tends to lack range and damage. The only real use I could see for throw is that you could throw various interesting items (like things that explode on impact or have other strange effects. But then this basically mimics currently existing objects/spells (not that its a bad thing, but finding those would tend to be even more unlikely than say wands, and probably cost more too boot). The only way this might even be vaguely interesting if you could make those mixtures via alchemy. then presumably you could make enough of them easy enough that it may actually be useful. but if you had to find such things, there isn't much use. Now of couse, in real life there was use of missile weapons like throwing daggers. But some of that is the relative quickness one can draw and throw daggers, neither of which is enforced in crossfire (you can switch objects pretty much as fast as you can click them, and we don't enforce any minimum ranges of bows). That makes it so missile weapons much less useful. The simple fact of the matter is that many things that may have been useful in earth's history do not make sense in the crossfire universe do to how things work there. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Wed Dec 6 02:25:16 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Weilding 2 weapons at once: bad In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:13:59 +0100." <000001c05ede$c36990c0$04a5e23e@kyle> Message-ID: <200012060825.AAA11357@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > Andreas Vogl wrote: > It would make the attack code very complicated for little > outcome: Nobody would want to use a shield anymore. I think Andi is completely right on this point. Wielding two weapons is a major, major game change and WOULD make shields obsolete. Instantly. No question about it. I'd vote against dual-wielded-weapons based on Andi's reasoning, with this possible exception: two for the Q, who can't use any armour. > Two-handed weapons could be nice though. As long as they do > nothing special except "blocking" the use of shields. In > return, these weapons could have extra-good stats. Agreed again. PM From mtx93 at tzi.de Wed Dec 6 08:24:45 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] throw cmd, ready a range attack, bow and rod In-Reply-To: <3A2DC951.B642B25D@scruz.net> Message-ID: > > Hi > > > > The bad point of the throw cmd is, that we don't have any real > control of > > what we can throw. > > Also, you must first send a throw command out, and then you throw items > > instead of firing... > > err, you can give an item name when you give the throw command. Yes, but you run in the same problems of other cmds where you can give names. for unidentified potions for example you can't specify which, when i remember it right and the server gets one random or all (that was the point why tags are in game, i think?). > I haven't played around with it much. I believe when you run > out of whatever > item you specified, it goes on to an effectively random object again. Yes, i try some and its pretty useless, it starts then throwing your silver coins and others. I think the throw command without specify what should be removed, because its useless and will bring murphy in the game, lets throwing you the one random you don't want lose. > Problem, for the most part, throw is even more useless than bows, as its > slower, and tends to lack range and damage. Thats true. So i think about integrating throw more in the way we use spell/weapons/bows/skills, that the modified range system i describe. > The only real use I could see for throw is that you could throw various > interesting items (like things that explode on impact or have > other strange > effects. But then this basically mimics currently existing > objects/spells (not > that its a bad thing, but finding those would tend to be even > more unlikely than > say wands, and probably cost more too boot). > The only way this might even be vaguely interesting if you could > make those > mixtures via alchemy. then presumably you could make enough of > them easy enough > that it may actually be useful. but if you had to find such > things, there isn't > much use. > > Now of couse, in real life there was use of missile weapons like throwing > daggers. But some of that is the relative quickness one can draw > and throw > daggers, neither of which is enforced in crossfire (you can switch objects > pretty much as fast as you can click them, and we don't enforce > any minimum > ranges of bows). That makes it so missile weapons much less useful. > > The simple fact of the matter is that many things that may have > been useful in > earth's history do not make sense in the crossfire universe do to > how things > work there. Yes, but as you say there are 2 things that be useful: - mighty throwing potions - special weapons Except for not so experienced player without good armor, i think thats normal throwing dagger be useless. Well, think about a mighty "mjoellnir" special weapon. In the original nordic tales, the hammer is a throwing weapon with electric attack which will automatically return to your hands. Which the throwing system i describe we can add this to mjoellnir. You apply it normal as weapon and use it in the same way. But you can also throw it. Make it in the way, that you add a invisible counter to it and remove his stats from your attack values. Then duplicate it and send this duplicate as thrown object which has a resolve timer as the inv. timer of your original object. Now, for the player, the hammer vanish from your hand, flying around, and when it resolve, it comes back to your hand. This will be a great add to range weapons. The players will play more with range attacks, and this will boost bows too. One big point is, that you must present the player a useful interface for using a gaming option. Throwing is a option you has as player, but it is not integrated in game (where you really need it?) nor as interface in the client. MichToen From bugs at real-time.com Wed Dec 6 01:45:37 2000 From: bugs at real-time.com (bugs@real-time.com) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] [Bug 34] Changed - Can't stop running until obstacle hit Message-ID: <200012060745.eB67jbx30616@crusader.real-time.com> http://bugzilla.real-time.com/show_bug.cgi?id=34 *** shadow/34 Mon Jul 24 14:39:16 2000 --- shadow/34.tmp.30612 Wed Dec 6 01:45:37 2000 *************** *** 3,10 **** Version: 0.95.6 Platform: PC OS/Version: Linux ! Status: NEW ! Resolution: Severity: normal Priority: P3 Component: X11 Client --- 3,10 ---- Version: 0.95.6 Platform: PC OS/Version: Linux ! Status: RESOLVED ! Resolution: FIXED Severity: normal Priority: P3 Component: X11 Client *************** *** 83,85 **** --- 83,94 ---- repeated assaults on random characters (the gate guard is a notable exception (;-)). However, with some caution, this one can be lived with/mostly avoided. + + ------- Additional Comments From mwedel@scruz.net 2000-12-06 01:45 ------- + Bug was actually in run code on server (I believe). At least my fix + for player speed not getting set to weapon_Speed unless actually attacking + an object fixed my really fast movement when leaving the gatehouse. + + I think client performance may contribute to the problem - client is so busy + trying to keep up with all the movement that this delays the client slightly + before it sends a response back to the server to say stop running. From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Wed Dec 6 19:47:10 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] WHAT?!?! Message-ID: Okay, what are you guys talking about? Shields obselete?? Shields are already obselete.. the only reason anyone wields them is because that is the only choice. You think this is GOOD? I am shocked. Here we are adding PR and on the verge of changing all the gods.. and you say "major game change". I realised long ago that this would obselete shields, but the solution is so simple, make shields useful. Lets face reality.. a shield gives as much AC as a pair of shoes. What the hell is that? If we bump the average AC of a shield up around 4 (remember a shield is used for blocking unlike body armour, thus it should have a very high AC but low armour). Just because something is currently not up to the standard is NO reason WHAT SO EVER, to stop progress. Not only is it more realistic.. but it will be ALOT more fun to sacrafice AC for damage, we add more PR to shields, alittle more AC and suddenly the option of two weapons isn't so exciting. Also I believe you are forgetting one of my KEY points. Str/Dex defining how heavy a pair of weapons you can wield. If you are a wizard with a Str of 8 you will barely be able to wield to swords effectively thus I will create another requirement of str. I plan to make it impossible excepting Str of 30 to wield to Bonecrushers, but 30 is a special case. at 20 a player will not be able to wield a total weight above (roughly) 50. To protect against multiple Dragonslayers we just bump the weight of the sword up. Now I stress, this is one freaken long term project. I am still tracing how crossfire handles attacks (I am no great programmer here =) (if you hadn't already realised). I have devoted most of my thoughts to this and an almost complete rework of the attack code is in order. With some help I think I can do it.. but you have to give me time. I REALLY am starting to get sick of comments like, it will make it too powerful blah blah blah. That is what TESTING is for, items change, we change everything, why does that suddenly have to change when I make a common sense suggestion about something which crossfire has been lacking for ALONG time? Stop worrying about simple holes about overpoweredness, and start thinking about how you could help me create the best code for the job =). There is a list of obselete items as long as this email, as we go through we can allow them to catch up. I mean offense in this email, but I find it very bizarre that such comments as Andreas and Peters are being made at a time like this. Sorry, take it up with me on IRC. dnh From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Wed Dec 6 20:45:11 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] WHAT?!?! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:47:10 +1100." Message-ID: <200012070245.SAA10573@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > Okay, what are you guys talking about? > > Shields obselete?? Shields are already obselete.. the only reason anyone > wields them is because that is the only choice. You think this is GOOD? I am > shocked. Here we are adding PR and on the verge of changing all the gods.. > and you say "major game change". I realised long ago that this would Yup, those are major game changes too, but we've discussed the hell out of them and built a consensus. It's pretty clear that doing the PR and the Gods changes will bring more balance to the game. NOW we're discussing "wielding two weapons". Weapon Weight Defender 20 Holy Avenger 25 Demonslayer 25 Stormbringer 25 Staff of Magi 4.5 Darkblade 20 So, pick any two of those and I can wield them if I have a Str of 20, if your weight limit of 50 at str 20 is used. But forget all that. Consider two "improved" daggers. If raising stats via improved weapons was bad BEFORE, well, NOW it is twice as bad. We'd have to go through and adjust ALL the weights to satisfy your system, and even when we were through, we'd still have a system open to abuse. Open to abuse? Begging for abuse. I still say two weapons is only appropriate for a Q, who cannot use either a shield or armour, or a helmet, or girdles. Allowing 2 weapons for Q's seems like a cool redress. > is that? If we bump the average AC of a shield up around 4 (remember a Yeah, but shoes rarely/never have any protections. Shields do. I always use shields now, but I would NEVER use them if I could use two weapons instead. I might use a Taifu or a Defender, but never again a shield. (Did I mention that Taifu's weigh only 5?) Do you use shields now? Yes? Then why are you claiming they're useless? > standard is NO reason WHAT SO EVER, to stop progress. Not only is it more > realistic.. but it will be ALOT more fun to sacrafice AC for damage, we add There's that "r" word again. Let me use the "r" word against you. How many great swordsmen in history were able to use two swords effectively in combat? Swinging two swords around just ain't "realistic"!!! Look into any fencing class.... Sword+shield is downright standard though. But screw realism. This is crossfire. Two weapons will make shields obsolete, and more than double the combat strength of characters: they lose nothing by dropping the shield (weapons can come with AC and protections too), and double their damage, and quite possibly gain some stats into the bargain. Unless, of course, we put in a lot of rules so that they can't actually wield two weapons. (Restrictions they'll easily circumvent: consider a weapon-improved taifu with high Str and Dex.) Your proposed counter to shield obsolescense is to inflate shields to great power, so they'll be useful compared to weapons. How about deflating your two-weapons proposal, instead? It's much less work. Please don't confuse "change" with "improvement." You paint us as resisting "progress". Well, I'm not convinced using two weapons is "progress." > face reality.. a shield gives as much AC as a pair of shoes. What the hell > (roughly) 50. To protect against multiple Dragonslayers we just bump the > weight of the sword up. > do it.. but you have to give me time. I REALLY am starting to get sick of > comments like, it will make it too powerful blah blah blah. That is what I'm sorry to hear you're tired of receiving our critical comments on your proposed change. I'm also sorry that you seem to be taking it as a personal attack rather than concern for game balance. It's no fun when people shoot down your pet idea. But I think this pet idea of yours is going to detract from game balance, not like the PR and the Gods changes, which I think will be beneficial. > TESTING is for, items change, we change everything, why does that suddenly > have to change when I make a common sense suggestion about something which > crossfire has been lacking for ALONG time? Stop worrying about simple holes > about overpoweredness, and start thinking about how you could help me create > the best code for the job =). There is a list of obselete items as long as > this email, as we go through we can allow them to catch up. > > I mean offense in this email, but I find it very bizarre that such comments > as Andreas and Peters are being made at a time like this. Sorry, take it up > with me on IRC. > > dnh > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From mwedel at scruz.net Wed Dec 6 22:55:21 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] throw cmd, ready a range attack, bow and rod References: Message-ID: <3A2F1839.4EA8B0D3@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: > Yes, but you run in the same problems of other cmds where you can > give names. for unidentified potions for example you can't specify which, > when i remember it right and the server gets one random or all (that was the > point why tags > are in game, i think?). Your right on that. I hadn't thought about that - there are probably many client->server commands where that is the case. It probably wouldn't be hard to change the behaviour on the server such that if the item name is numeric, treat it as a tag and find the right item. Note that many of the commands take names instead of tags because the player could type that name by hand. > Which the throwing system i describe we can add this to mjoellnir. You apply > it normal as > weapon and use it in the same way. But you can also throw it. Make it in the > way, that you > add a invisible counter to it and remove his stats from your attack values. > Then duplicate it > and send this duplicate as thrown object which has a resolve timer as the > inv. timer of your original > object. Now, for the player, the hammer vanish from your hand, flying > around, and when it resolve, > it comes back to your hand. Yeah, I guess that will work. You do have a problem in that the original can not re-appear in the players inventory until the thrown one disappears. This effectively limits the range or the rate of throw. which may not be terrible, but may be tricky to balance so that this is still a useful weapon. From mwedel at scruz.net Thu Dec 7 01:26:17 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: Dual weapon usage & future changes, was Re: [CF-Devel] WHAT?!?! References: <200012070245.SAA10573@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A2F3B99.840B0EC7@scruz.net> I'll try to avoid getting into the specifics of this change. But I'll try to put in some general notes that perhaps go beyond this specific proposal. For any significant project, the gains have to be weighed against the work to get there and support work after it. And I think at least in terms of dual weapon usage, people are seeing that a lot of work needs to be done to get there, and even more work (ever ongoing) will need to get done afterwards for balance. And to that extent, I agree - what has been suggested is that most all the weapons weights might need to get adjusted, all the shields may need to get adjusted (to still keep them worthwhile). From past projects, those that have worked on crossfire for a long time know that there is no such thing as one person making it all work. At best, the sponsor of the code may get it 75% right, but that last 25% could be the hardest part to get right (especially for balance, as changing one thing may shift the balance someplace else, etc). This was/is certainly true even with the partial resistance code. I basically did the code, and others had previously agreed (and have assisted) in fixing up objects and so forth. I don't really like the argument that shields are currently useful so something that doesn't address that but instead does something completely different doesn't seem to be the right approach. But more on that, one could argue that many objects are pretty much useless (lets face it, except for artifact versions, basically boots, helms, cloaks, and gloves are also useless.) I would certainly say it is bigger for these points to be brought up now than 6 months (or whatever from now) when you've done all the code and what not and it is deemed unacepptable. And that sort of makes this change more difficult. If all the code was done, then obviously the issue of balance could be better investigated. But that requires a lot of code to be changed. I would say it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to re-do all that code if the only thing that is going to benefit from it is Quetzolcoutls. To counter some points, it wouldn't be hard to make it so that a player can not equipped two improved weapons. But trying to deal with artifacts is very difficult.. So at this point, I think discussion is still good. I don't have a big problem with people not using shields - I've played some games where you can use two weapons (and not a shield), and it was certainly a choice on whether I wanted to do that or not. But as Peter and Andreas has brought up, given enough details, you may be able to change their mind. For example, a flag could certainly be added that limits a weapon to only be in the primary hand for example, with that being set on most/all artifacts. So that then fixes that play balance problem, but if all you can use is a mediocre weapon in your off hand which people probably will not do, then there is lots of code which once again no one may use. Just as a general note, long term projects are actually more difficult because the longer it takes to get a project done, the more likely the source you are based from changes in incompatible ways, and at some point, you may spend more of your time resolving those conflicts than actually generating/fixing code. From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Thu Dec 7 02:32:08 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Okay.. Message-ID: I'm not going to bother trying to change any of the weapons code at all. It is obvious the change is just going to cause more trouble than it is worth. It's working now isn't it. dnh From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Thu Dec 7 02:57:18 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Sorry Message-ID: Okay let me rephrase my previous email. I am not going to waste 4 or more weeks attempting to rewrite the whole code so a Q can wield two weapons, and some weapons are two handed. As I have previously stated I consider this a long term project and thus do not see a quick one night solution. After almost two weeks I am now told that basically all my ideas are worthless is not something which puts on in a particualarly good mood =|. As Mark has said, " So at this point, I think discussion is still good. I don't have a big problem with people not using shields - I've played some games where you can use two weapons (and not a shield), and it was certainly a choice on whether I wanted to do that or not." In every game I hgave played where multiple weapons have been able to be wielded (thinks of Diablo II), it is usually alot better to go with the shield. This was how I was planning to set it up, put enough negatives that it is much better to get that extra defense from the shield. "Swinging two swords around just ain't "realistic"!!!" Let me assure you Pete, that that is more than realistic. Barbarians were well reknowned for the ability to trample armies by running through equiped with 2! axes. While (And I have already said this) I plan to add code so that a certain weight level must be observed before a player can wield, the values I suggested were rough. If they are to high... we TAKE THEM DOWN!. How hard is that? To tell the truth I plan to just write the code and leave it, if people want to take advantage of it so be it, but the attack code is VERY poor and needs alot of catching up. It is just outdated now, I am sure it has fitted the purpose for along time, but it simply wasn't designed for the new and improved battle scenarios we now face. Concluding, Pete, I have alot of trouble understanding how you can go from wanting to remove caps, and taking out tables to declaring that something shouldn't be added because it will change the balance. I don't get upset by what you say, I welcome, and have welcomed all comment on this project. What I get upset about is your repeating of information I have already found solutions for, why is it so hard to comprehend balancing a few items? The majority of them should be okay anyway and it is the code that will balance it, not really the items... Again I have already said, please don't tell me the problems, I know them already, try and find SOLUTIONS. By all your problem finding it seems to me you are not being constructive rather dogmatic. Take this how you will, I don't enjoy one bit having stupid arguements about stupid things. This is the last message I send about this, please try and help me or at very least be constructive. Signing out dnh From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Thu Dec 7 04:02:04 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] WHAT?!?! In-Reply-To: ; from dhurst@it.swin.edu.au on Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 12:47:10PM +1100 References: Message-ID: <20001207110204.A22501@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 12:47:10PM +1100, David Hurst wrote: > and you say "major game change". I realised long ago that this would > obselete shields, but the solution is so simple, make shields useful. Lets > face reality.. a shield gives as much AC as a pair of shoes. What the hell > is that? If we bump the average AC of a shield up around 4 (remember a > shield is used for blocking unlike body armour, thus it should have a very > high AC but low armour). Just because something is currently not up to the I already proposed a solution for this problem: A cloak +6 (ac +1) should not effectively give AC +7, but something like AC +(1 + 6/3) = +3, whereas shields still give the full AC bonus. The short-term fix for shoes is also obvious: Remove AC bonus from all shoes, esp. jack boots. But I don't have the time to implement this. I object to increasing the base AC of shields because a) you'd need to re-balance everything, because players' AC is generally lower b) it doesn't help much with items that are enchanted 5 or 10 times Nevertheless, slightly increasing the base AC of a shield to 2 (light shields) or 3 (heavy and artifact shields) looks fine when the effective AC of other items is reduced. > standard is NO reason WHAT SO EVER, to stop progress. Not only is it more > realistic.. but it will be ALOT more fun to sacrafice AC for damage, we add The usual way for arranging that is to have two-handed weapons with much damage and one-handed weapons with little damage. -- Jan From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Thu Dec 7 20:36:21 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry Message-ID: <200012080236.SAA10557@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> >Okay let me rephrase my previous email. I am not going to waste 4 or more >weeks attempting to rewrite the whole code so a Q can wield two weapons, >and some weapons are two handed. As I have previously stated I consider And clean up the attack code, which you said is ugly and needs it. >After almost two weeks I am now told that basically all my ideas are >worthless is not something which puts on in a particualarly good mood =|. Please. Your email on the topic is dated Dec. 1. Andreas's reply was dated Dec. 5. Mine was Dec 6. I do not think we left you hanging for an unreasonable time after you put the idea up. Honestly, I thought the 2-weapons idea was a cool one at first, too. However, after Andi's mail, I saw the many downsides and difficulties of it, and I'd rather see these dealt with BEFORE we hack it into the code. Now, you say that we can restrict weapon use by weight. I do not like this idea, because it seems like I can always use an enhanced dagger or two and have quite an effective and abusive combination, better than could reasonably be expected with shields, or a dagger + taifu, which would double as a shield. The fact is that weapons in this game are much, much sexier than shields: they do damage, add stats, add protections, attunements, sometimes add ac/armour, sp++ and hp++, and slayings. Shields typically only add protections, ac, and armour, and occasionally a Cha stat. I simply can't imagine myself using a shield ever again if I can be using a Taifu of Valriel +3str +3dex +9 ac +10dam slaying demon weighing 1 unit instead. Unless I could find a shield which would do +3str +3dex and +9ac with a couple of protections: impossible currently. So, you say, let's make that shield possible, so everyone doesn't immediately forget about shields. Well, don't you see that either way, this adds a great deal to the power of the player? He can get more goodies. The balance of the game is... off.... I see your proposal as analogous to this: "Let's allow 2 rings on each hand if a player doesn't use an amulet." I just can't see anyone walking around with an amulet on after that: unless we make an amulet worth giving up two rings for. >As Mark has said, >" So at this point, I think discussion is still good. I don't have a big >problem with people not using shields - I've played some games where you >can use two weapons (and not a shield), and it was certainly a choice on >whether I wanted to do that or not." And I say to Mark, in those games, were weapons as sexy as they are in crossfire, compared to shields? >In every game I hgave played where multiple weapons have been able to be >wielded (thinks of Diablo II), it is usually alot better to go with the >shield. This was how I was planning to set it up, put enough negatives >that it is much better to get that extra defense from the shield. So basically no one ever used two weapons? Then if you follow this approach in Crossfire, then no one will use two weapons....except.... Q's. >"Swinging two swords around just ain't "realistic"!!!" >Let me assure you Pete, that that is more than realistic. Barbarians were Do I need to make the point again that arguing realism in crossfire is silly? >code so that a certain weight level must be observed before a player >can wield, the values I suggested were rough. If they are to high... we >TAKE THEM DOWN!. How hard is that? To tell the truth I plan to just write And my objection is that no matter how far you take them down, I can still find a combination of two weapons which will be superior to any shield/weapon combo: unless we inflate shields. But once we start inflating things, where do we stop? --> (Because of the choice of two weapons or weapon + inflated shield, monsters are weaker compared to players.... Let's inflate monsters... Oops, now spellcasting is disadvantaged. Let's enhance spells...) >Concluding, Pete, I have alot of trouble understanding how you can go from >wanting to remove caps, and taking out tables to declaring that something >shouldn't be added because it will change the balance. I don't get upset Let me explain. Removing caps on stats might lead a player to pick some stat to specialize in, increasing character diversity and fun. Allowing two weapons would lead everyone to using two weapons. Removing caps on levels and hp allows the game to be open ended, but leaves things in balance at low levels. Removing the cap on the number of weapons changes the relative balance of chars/monsters at every level. >What I get upset about is your repeating of information I have already >found solutions for, why is it so hard to comprehend balancing a few I have not found your solutions satisfactory. Mark's come up with some better solutions, such as setting a flag so that abusive combinations are not possible. However, any mapmaker can neglect to set a flag: I am not completely satisfied with this solution either. How about this? Two weapons are allowed if one of the weapons is COMPLETELY mundane. No special attacktypes. No protections, ac bonuses, attunements, magic+, or whatnot. I'd have no objection to that. Of course, people will completely stop using this second weapon once they have a nice shield. >By all your problem finding it seems to me you are not being constructive >rather dogmatic. Take this how you will, I don't enjoy one bit having Is objecting to change I see as destructive.... constructive? And there's some room for dogma in the world: "Evolution is the most credible theory of biology." "The earth revolves about the sun" "Balance is important in crossfire" "Doing less work is better than doing more work to achieve similar results." >items? The majority of them should be okay anyway and it is the code that >will balance it, not really the items... Again I have already said, please >don't tell me the problems, I know them already, try and find SOLUTIONS. Well, I HAVE proposed solutions. Before this email, I proposed: 1) Restrict two weapon use to Q's. and implicity: 2) Nip the problem in the bud by not doing all this work. Now I've added: 3) Allow only completely mundane second weapons. You've found my solutions about as satisfactory as I have found yours. Regards, PeterM From mwedel at scruz.net Thu Dec 7 21:57:44 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry References: <200012080236.SAA10557@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A305C38.13E7710D@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > Please. Your email on the topic is dated Dec. 1. > Andreas's reply was dated Dec. 5. Mine was Dec 6. I do not think > we left you hanging for an unreasonable time after you put the > idea up. Just to sort of state this to everyone - you must give at least fair oppurtunity for everyone to at least pipe up with suggestions. I would generally allow at least a 1 week time between suggesting a major change and starting work on it. I know there is temptation when in that high energy coding mood to just start. But people may be out of town, or just too busy to thoughtfully reply within 2 or 3 days. > So, you say, let's make that shield possible, so everyone doesn't > immediately forget about shields. Well, don't you see that > either way, this adds a great deal to the power of the player? > He can get more goodies. The balance of the game is... off.... I do think this can be countered with some by the suggestion to reduce bonus on boots, gloves, and cloaks. That unfortunately just takes us back to where things were a few years ago - I still think it is way to easy to get a very good AC. But removing those items will help - if the only items you can get AC out of is your helm, shield, and armour, that is 3 less items you can enchant (or find magical varieties of) to get AC from, so the effect may end up making AC's worse. Of course, this would be a fairly easy expirement to try out right now to see how it works out. > And I say to Mark, in those games, were weapons as sexy as they > are in crossfire, compared to shields? Probably not. And as alluded two, one problem in crossfire is that weapons are so much better than anything else - this is one thing that makes classes and followers of gods who can't use weapons so much weaker. I don't have a really good solution to that however - making other items so much better is probably not the way to go. > Let me explain. Removing caps on stats might lead a player to pick some > stat to specialize in, increasing character diversity and fun. Allowing > two weapons would lead everyone to using two weapons. Removing caps > on levels and hp allows the game to be open ended, but leaves things > in balance at low levels. Removing the cap on the number of weapons > changes the relative balance of chars/monsters at every level. Just to note, I'm not convinced that removing caps on levels or stats is necessarily a good value. More so levels than stats - it seems we really need to effectively cut the game off at some point - we can't really expect maps for levels 1 to 1,000,000 to be made. But that is a different discussion. > Mark's come up with some better solutions, such as setting a flag > so that abusive combinations are not possible. However, any > mapmaker can neglect to set a flag: I am not completely satisfied > with this solution either. Any mapmaker can do stuff to totally screw up balance (armor or shield with incredible protections for example). In fact, some maps like that have been found and fixed. I think we really need to trust that mapmakers will do the right things (or if the map is part of the standard distribution, it will be fixed). My personal preferance is to have the object to try and contain as much information as possible - this allows for much greater flexibility, and in many places reduces the code (as the code does not have to try and examine objects to see what they can do). One unrelated thought I had would be to add ego to weapons (ala AD&D's idea). If the weapons ego is higher than yours, it basically takes you over (force you to attack or the like - maybe the beserk flag could be extended to effect players also). But simpler might be to assign ego to all artifact class items, and you total up the ego the character has equipped, and this is limited to some value (level or the like). So using two artifact type weapons would add a lot of ego points, meaning you need to be very high level. IF you don't have the ego to equip that second weapon, it doesn't do you any good. Even for simple weapons, ego could be magic bonus + adjustement based on special abilities (so for example a sword +4 would have 4 ego just for being +4). This at least allows the setting of the artifacts egos more accurately than can probably be done in the code. From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 8 01:31:57 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:26 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Future development & version 1.0. Message-ID: <3A308E6D.10E4E996@scruz.net> I've taken a little time to think through future enhancements going towards the 1.0 release. Certainly the Partial Resistance code was a big piece of that puzzle. Looking over the TODO list, while there is lots of stuff there, a lot of it is probably minor. To me, the big points (harder to do) on the TODO list are (in no particular order): 1) Re-do object structure into type/subtype setup. This really does not affect gameplay in any way - it really is more of a code cleanup - it should allows some other features to be done more easily than the current object setup. 2) Automatic map tiling & increasing outdoor scale. Increasing the outdoor scale is not really dependant on the first, but map tiling would make it easier. This will affect gameplay some, but probably not in major ways. 3) Increase the viewable map to 17x17 or 21x21 or some other size. This is a very visible change - it probably does not affect balance much, but the player will have a bit more visibility on monsters. Also, this may make some maps much easier, as you can now see the target of some goal that otherwise was not noticable before (ie, before you open that great, you can see wherey ou need to run to). 4) Transportation objects. What I really mean by this is taking a transportation object that lets you go over terrain you normally could not - ie, a ship over water. With this change, the ships that instantly transport you to other places should be removed. This probably isn't a big deal/high priority. Client contacting metaserver and prompting for which to play on is on my near term list of things to do. It of course does not change play balance in any way. The above said, if version 1.0 is our most immediate goals, my main concerns would be: 1) Stability of the server. The server really needs to be able to run for days under heavy loads with no problems. 2) Scalibility of server. I don't know the most heavily loaded a server has been, but potentially if we are trying to make crossfire mainstream, this could be tens to hundreds of users. I'm not sure how well it currently does - even on my slow sparc 10 running the tavern, a couple players did not seem to chew up much cpu, so I think we may be OK on that. 3) Playability - how easy will it be for new players to play the game. Even on some of the current public servers without many players, you can get into cases of various buildings/dungeons having bee ncleared out. With 30 players on a server, I could see it being quite difficult to find available dungeons. The only real solution to this I can see is just have a lot more maps/choices. Now onto some personal thoughts: If possible, it would be much better to grow the user base slowly and not a sudden 10 or hundred fold increase. The former will let us address some of these points above as we see them - maybe it turns out that after 15 users, a server becomes unplayable - if thats the case, we can then investigate ways to fix that and so forth. But also, I really don't want to get inundated with hundreds of misc question or bug reports of minor nature. Or if I do, I probably won't have the time nor inclination to respond to those. I think the increased user base can be used to that advantage, as hopefully they will find some of those issues, but also be around and hopefully willing to answer more questions. As far as a technical basis, the way this would probably need to work out is have 2 cvs versions - a 1.0 and a 2.0 (or 1.1 or whatever). The only thing done on 1.0 would be to do bugfixes, and I personally do not want to do that, so someone else will need to volunteer for that. the 2.0 branch would be for the other great upcoming features, some of which I mention on the list above, and others I'm sure to be brought up by the new players. Anyways, thats just some words of thought. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Fri Dec 8 03:00:56 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2000 19:57:44 PST." <3A305C38.13E7710D@scruz.net> Message-ID: <200012080900.BAA32418@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > > > So, you say, let's make that shield possible, so everyone doesn't > > immediately forget about shields. Well, don't you see that > > either way, this adds a great deal to the power of the player? > > He can get more goodies. The balance of the game is... off.... > > I do think this can be countered with some by the suggestion to reduce bonus > boots, gloves, and cloaks. That unfortunately just takes us back to where > things were a few years ago - I still think it is way to easy to get a very g > AC. I would rather not reduce bonus with boots, gloves, and cloaks. Boots and gloves right now traditionally give very moderate benefit. [AC, levit, speed, stealth], and [protection, stats, armour, but not AC] ... unless "enchant armour" is used on them. I would not REDUCE the benefit of boots and gloves: I would just withdraw the ability to use "enchant armour" on them. This seems to me a more minimal and elegant solution than other proposals. Cloaks. No enchant armour for these either. When I added in cloaks I never intended them to be enchanted beyond what was native. minor +1, intermediate +2, greater +3, end of story. The rest of them are simple single-protection affairs for the most part, except Underworld and Invisibility: nothing that great and moderated very well by PR. But we should think of some issues before doing reductions: are we seriously screwing fighter chars by doing these reductions? Remember, these characters are going up against high-level demons, undead, and things like Jessies. On enhancing shields: well, we can add more AC to them. Honestly, though, i'd still be using a +5 enhanced taifu instead of a shield: doing extra damage is better than 2-3 AC points, and I think putting more than that would be wrong. > > And I say to Mark, in those games, were weapons as sexy as they > > are in crossfire, compared to shields? > > Probably not. And as alluded two, one problem in crossfire is that weapons > so much better than anything else - this is one thing that makes classes and > followers of gods who can't use weapons so much weaker. I don't really see this as a problem, but rather as style. Swords are *inherently* sexier than a helmet, for example. Take a sword and a helmet and stick 'em in a museum and people will spend more time looking at the sword. All the cool stories talk about magic swords, by and large. Crossfire just reflects that, and I think it is fine. > > Let me explain. Removing caps on stats might lead a player to pick some > > stat to specialize in, increasing character diversity and fun. Allowing > > two weapons would lead everyone to using two weapons. Removing caps > > on levels and hp allows the game to be open ended, but leaves things > > in balance at low levels. Removing the cap on the number of weapons > > changes the relative balance of chars/monsters at every level. > > Just to note, I'm not convinced that removing caps on levels or stats is > necessarily a good value. More so levels than stats - it seems we really nee > to effectively cut the game off at some point - we can't really expect maps f > levels 1 to 1,000,000 to be made. But that is a different discussion. I understand your point on levels, and I don't really have strong arguments against the cap. However, I don't have a problem with a non-existence of maps for players > level 100. Just because we allow the possibility doesn't mean we have to realize it. I can't think of anything I would do with a level 200 character, nor do I have any ideas on maps for such a char. I don't have strong objections to stat caps either, but I would like to see them go, because I think it would force players to make choices and specialize. Now, we'd leave caps on "natural" stats as they are, but enhancements could go as high as someone could pile on items to do. There'd be no more "well, my POW is 30, now I'll work on my Str." > > mapmaker can neglect to set a flag: I am not completely satisfied > > with this solution either. > > Any mapmaker can do stuff to totally screw up balance (armor or shield with > incredible protections for example). In fact, some maps like that have been > found and fixed. I think we really need to trust that mapmakers will do the That's a reasonable point. > information as possible - this allows for much greater flexibility, and in ma > places reduces the code (as the code does not have to try and examine objects > see what they can do). Well, what would we need to test in this case? path_attuned compared to 0, magic compared to 0, ac compared to 0 resistances compared to 0. Well, that IS a lot of stuff to check. > One unrelated thought I had would be to add ego to weapons (ala AD&D's idea) Yeah, I was once going to make power crystals do unexpected, interesting things, maybe useful things, using up the mana in them, and based on their personality. Hence the file "egoitem.c" where power crystal code resides. I never got around it. > But simpler might be to assign ego to all artifact class items, and you tota > up the ego the character has equipped, and this is limited to some value (lev > or the like). So using two artifact type weapons would add a lot of ego poin > meaning you need to be very high level. IF you don't have the ego to equip t > second weapon, it doesn't do you any good. We could use "level" for this. Set level to the sum of {magic + resistances/10 + attunements + 2*stats}, and MULTIPLY the weapons levels together. But still, on thinking of this, I do not like it. The rich get richer: high levelers would get to use two artifact weapons. I would rather see only one nice weapon and one mundane weapon in use. Use "level" as your flag. Whenever we create a + item, or an artifact, we set a level on it. Can't use two "leveled" weapons at once. We can retrofit most of the artifacts in the game by modifying the archetypes file to add "level 1", and hunt down the rest in the mapset. PeterM From jbontje at suespammers.org Fri Dec 8 03:39:26 2000 From: jbontje at suespammers.org (Joris Bontje) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] (Fwd) Crossfire Message-ID: <3A30BA5E.31343.5ADAF@localhost> A few weeks ago I got this email from someone. I forwarded it to peterm, but it seems he never got it. Lets do it right this time. Joris Bontje ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:19:36 -0800 To: jbontje@suespammers.org Subject: Crossfire From: glynn Hi! is Crossfire an ongoing project? if so would you like a feature page on everspire.com (a roleplaying/sci-fi/fantasy portal and news site this won't cost anything, and all we ask is regular updates and maybe some screenshots when developed etc. - anything that others may consider to be news let me know glynn@everspire.com ------- End of forwarded message ------- --- The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Fri Dec 8 03:48:52 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Future development & version 1.0. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2000 23:31:57 PST." <3A308E6D.10E4E996@scruz.net> Message-ID: <200012080948.BAA19496@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > I've taken a little time to think through future enhancements going towards > 1.0 release. I think crossfire was a good game deserving of 1.0 years ago. It's been fun to play the entire time I've worked on it. I really think that in the last years, we've added icing to an already good cake. It was a good game before I ever touched it. Now it is a 3-layer cake with a lot of innovations seen in no other game. The only major thing I think that has been missing is a real bugkill push. Jan in particular has done a lot in this direction: if we're close to 1.0, he gets a lot of the credit for the bugsquishing, though the rest of us have done some, too. The skills are great, the PR is great, the gods system is great: don't mistake me. But the game was good enough before any of these to deserve a 1.0. That is not to say crossfire is perfect, or "finished." It'll never be either, and I don't think anything remaining in the TODO list should stop us from promoting the game. Let's finish up the current projects, make the game usable by dummies, squash the serious bugs, and put out a 1.0. Seriously. Heck, we could have called the last release 1.0, and it would be a credit to us and everyone who has contributed. Omega was very fun to play, but let me tell you, it was FAR less balanced than crossfire is right now (even with the recent PR stuff.) Now I'll comment on the stuff below: > 1) Re-do object structure into type/subtype setup. This really does not aff > > 2) Automatic map tiling & increasing outdoor scale. Increasing the outdoor > > 3) Increase the viewable map to 17x17 or 21x21 or some other size. This is a > > 4) Transportation objects. What I really mean by this is taking a These all seem like splendid ideas for 2.0. > Client contacting metaserver and prompting for which to play on is on my near > term list of things to do. It of course does not change play balance in any "make it playable by dummies." > The above said, if version 1.0 is our most immediate goals, my main concerns > would be: > 1) Stability of the server. The server really needs to be able to run for da > under heavy loads with no problems. The only remaining serious bug I know of is "that map bug": the one where you come out of an exit and end up in the sea. > 2) Scalibility of server. I don't know the most heavily loaded a server has > been, but potentially if we are trying to make crossfire mainstream, this cou Honestly, I think we should make it easy for someone to play the game by himself on his own machine. The game is great standalone as well as networked, and I think we'd be better showing what crossfire can be like played locally as well as on the... few... laggy.... public servers. We should rename the client "crossfire", and have it start up a server, "cfserv" locally if the player doesn't select a network game: and all this stuff should be 1 package. > 3) Playability - how easy will it be for new players to play the game. Even > some of the current public servers without many players, you can get into cas > of various buildings/dungeons having bee ncleared out. With 30 players on a > server, I could see it being quite difficult to find available dungeons. The > only real solution to this I can see is just have a lot more maps/choices. Random maps. This is why I DID random maps. My whole reason for making that huge exertion. This is why I once proposed making cities where, by default, each exit led to a random map. The random maps are pretty good. They could be much better. However, no one has done significant work on them but me. The existing potential of random maps has been only 5% exploited.... For example, I could probably pretty much duplicate nethack with random maps. > If possible, it would be much better to grow the user base slowly and not a > sudden 10 or hundred fold increase. The former will let us address some of I disagree. We want a HUGE player base. We just don't want them all joining public servers. Start up a server on their machine for them, unless they specify a remote one. > these points above as we see them - maybe it turns out that after 15 users, a > server becomes unplayable - if thats the case, we can then investigate ways t > fix that and so forth. Well, we can try this out now. > But also, I really don't want to get inundated with hundreds of misc questio > or bug reports of minor nature. Or if I do, I probably won't have the time n > inclination to respond to those. I think the increased user base can be used The standard response to an indundation of bug reports that the developers cannot handle is to say, "why don't you help fix it?" No one is paying us: we've no obligation to do anything or fix anything. The Tanners have provided an excellent resource which should answer most questions, and there is the crossfire-list. Players can support each other. > As far as a technical basis, the way this would probably need to work out is > have 2 cvs versions - a 1.0 and a 2.0 (or 1.1 or whatever). The only thing > done on 1.0 would be to do bugfixes, and I personally do not want to do that, > someone else will need to volunteer for that. the 2.0 branch would be for th > other great upcoming features, some of which I mention on the list above, and > others I'm sure to be brought up by the new players. Nah, I think you're taking this too seriously. People can live with a few bugs or instability in their free game. Either that, or they can help us fix it. Right now, we've not the manpower to do what you're proposing, two CVS branches. I'd rather see a development-release cycle, like many codes do. That's not to say we shouldn't make an effort to respond to suggestions and fix bugs. But let's not turn our hobby into a job. PeterM From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Fri Dec 8 05:03:31 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: <200012080900.BAA32418@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:00:56AM -0800 References: <3A305C38.13E7710D@scruz.net> <200012080900.BAA32418@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001208120330.A8669@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:00:56AM -0800, Peter Mardahl wrote: > I would not REDUCE the benefit of boots and gloves: > I would just withdraw the ability to use "enchant armour" on them. "Enchant armour" has effects other than improving AC, e.g. protecting the item from cancellation. With partial resistances, enchanted items could also give better protections. There are many possibilities. Therefore I wouldn't dissallow "enchant armour" completely, but only reduce the AC effects on items that shouldn't give high AC bonus. > But we should think of some issues before doing reductions: > are we seriously screwing fighter chars by doing these reductions? > Remember, these characters are going up against high-level demons, > undead, and things like Jessies. Fighters do have a disadvantage in that they need to get in touch with the enemy. I think monsters with wc -20 or better are supposed to hit every player no matter how good the player's AC is. > I don't have strong objections to stat caps either, but I would like > to see them go, because I think it would force players to make choices > and specialize. Now, we'd leave caps on "natural" stats as they are, > but enhancements could go as high as someone could pile on items to do. > There'd be no more "well, my POW is 30, now I'll work on my Str." I think there must be a limit somewhere (well, there is always a limit unless players' strength is exceeding every limit). If players are reaching that limit too fast you don't need to increase the limit. You can also make it more difficult to reach the limit. IMHO monster's level should be removed from the formula for calculating experience gains. Right now it's difficult to see how much experience a monster actually gives. A few high level monsters make it very easy for players to get to high levels, even though they have the same "exp" value as other low level monsters that are not so much easier to kill. This would make the level limit difficult to reach. -- Jan From andi.vogl at gmx.net Fri Dec 8 07:46:23 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] (Fwd) Crossfire In-Reply-To: <3A30BA5E.31343.5ADAF@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c0611d$42a79a40$8d19993e@kyle> > Hi! > > is Crossfire an ongoing project? > > if so would you like a feature page on everspire.com (a > roleplaying/sci-fi/fantasy portal and news site > > this won't cost anything, and all we ask is regular updates > and maybe some screenshots when developed etc. - anything > that others may consider to be news > > let me know > > glynn@everspire.com What are we waiting for? I?d say Yes, yes and yes! The site is a nice one too. If I understand it correctly, they provide a link to our main site (crossfire.real-time.com) and we can post updates to their "latest news" column. Quite cool. I?d suggest we set up a table somewhere, listing all sites that provide a link to the CF main site. We can increase those slowly, depending on the number of players we aim to get. I completely agree with Michael T. and Peter M.: Current web-presence of CF is about zero. That?s why we got a less than moderate amount of players. Getting more players would be *very* good for us (More playing fun, more maps, more developers, more testers, etc). However, the real big "advertising" should start after 1.0 release (hopefully soon). Andreas V. From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 9 01:38:47 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry References: <200012080900.BAA32418@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A31E187.55AC2C16@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > I would rather not reduce bonus with boots, gloves, and cloaks. > Boots and gloves right now traditionally give very moderate benefit. > [AC, levit, speed, stealth], and [protection, stats, armour, but not AC] > > ... unless "enchant armour" is used on them. > > I would not REDUCE the benefit of boots and gloves: > I would just withdraw the ability to use "enchant armour" on them. > This seems to me a more minimal and elegant solution than other > proposals. Note that the levitation and speed boots are artifact items, and quite rare. > But we should think of some issues before doing reductions: > are we seriously screwing fighter chars by doing these reductions? > Remember, these characters are going up against high-level demons, > undead, and things like Jessies. However, mages can also use cloaks, gloves, and boots without any real problem, so it really helps both classes. If you want to help fighters and not mages, I think you really need to beef up shields and armors - things that cause significant spell point regen penalties and spell fumbling chances. But that is still a very hard call - even if the mage isn't in direct hand to hand combat, those items that help with spell casting give them benefit. > > On enhancing shields: well, we can add more AC to them. Honestly, > though, i'd still be using a +5 enhanced taifu instead of a shield: > doing extra damage is better than 2-3 AC points, and I think putting > more than that would be wrong. Arguably, for taifu's, only the base bonus should be given to AC, and not all the magic bonus. I think in most cases, a +5 taifu might currently be better than most shields - just the fact you already have a shield sort of reduces the need of taifu's. > I understand your point on levels, > and I don't really have strong arguments against the cap. However, > I don't have a problem with a non-existence of maps for players > level 100. > Just because we allow the possibility doesn't mean we have to realize it. > I can't think of anything I would do with a level 200 character, nor > do I have any ideas on maps for such a char. But you will get some user base saying 'hey - I'm level 150 and there is nothing to do in the game? Whats up?'. And if there is no point to those higher levels, why allow it? If you want to make things interesting, cap the level and instead have some very tough dungeons - tough enough that the player needs the right items and use them properly. With removal of immunity potions, this is a much more real possiblity. I've also made this point before - if there is no limit on levels, people will start making level 150 or 500 or whatever level maps. I would much rather map creation be concentrated in a more narrow range. It does seem that in terms of level, most things will keep scaling (damage for spells, hp and sp the player gets, etc), and improved items. > Well, what would we need to test in this case? > path_attuned compared to 0, > magic compared to 0, > ac compared to 0 > resistances compared to 0. > Well, that IS a lot of stuff to check. But my point is more, than using flags allow for greater flexibility. Sure, you don't want the character to be wielding two artifact weapons, but do we really want to prevent a dragonslayer and say a dagger +1? In terms of balance, except for the taifu and perhaps a few other very special weapons, wielding an artifact and a normal weapon, even if magical, probably is not unbalancing. And I would really have to question if a +4 long sword would be that much better than a dragonshield if you could use two weapons. Jan Echternach wrote: > IMHO monster's level should be removed from the formula for calculating > experience gains. Right now it's difficult to see how much experience > a monster actually gives. A few high level monsters make it very easy > for players to get to high levels, even though they have the same "exp" > value as other low level monsters that are not so much easier to kill. > This would make the level limit difficult to reach. I thought the simple exp system does this, but I then notice that calc_skill_exp does not use this, and it appears that is used when killing another creature. That is easy enough to change - should that also be changed for more than just combat? I sort of think perhaps it should - I know a low level character lucky enough to disarm a difficult trap can gets tons of experience. From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 9 02:09:49 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] (Fwd) Crossfire References: <000001c0611d$42a79a40$8d19993e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A31E8CD.458B2076@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > What are we waiting for? I?d say Yes, yes and yes! > The site is a nice > one too. > If I understand it correctly, they provide a link to our > main site (crossfire.real-time.com) and we can post updates > to their "latest news" column. Quite cool. > > I?d suggest we set up a table somewhere, listing all sites > that provide a link to the CF main site. We can increase those > slowly, depending on the number of players we aim to get. > > I completely agree with Michael T. and Peter M.: Current > web-presence of CF is about zero. That?s why we got a less than > moderate amount of players. Getting more players would be *very* > good for us (More playing fun, more maps, more developers, > more testers, etc). > However, the real big "advertising" should start after 1.0 release > (hopefully soon). I don't have a problem with crossfire getting added to new sites. Who wants to be the crossfire evangilist? Crossfire actually manages to have its own category on yahoo: http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Games/Computer_Games/Titles/Role_Playing/Crossfire/ At least the real time page is there. I think the other pages are out of date. From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 9 02:32:56 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Future development & version 1.0. References: <200012080948.BAA19496@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A31EE38.A7DF30A0@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > > > I've taken a little time to think through future enhancements going towards > > 1.0 release. > > I think crossfire was a good game deserving of 1.0 years ago. It's > been fun to play the entire time I've worked on it. I really think > that in the last years, we've added icing to an already good cake. > It was a good game before I ever touched it. I think before the client server split, crossfire would not have been ready for 1.0. Back when the server did remote x displays, lag was determined by the laggiest connection. > > Now it is a 3-layer cake with a lot of innovations seen in no other game. > The only major thing I think that has been missing is a real > bugkill push. Jan in particular has done a lot in this direction: > if we're close to 1.0, he gets a lot of the credit for the bugsquishing, > though the rest of us have done some, too. It helps a lot of major new features are not being done, and I think that has also stabilized (except for PR code) in more recent times. > That is not to say crossfire is perfect, or "finished." It'll > never be either, and I don't think anything remaining in the > TODO list should stop us from promoting the game. agree. > Heck, we could have called the last release 1.0, and it would > be a credit to us and everyone who has contributed. Omega was very > fun to play, but let me tell you, it was FAR less balanced than > crossfire is right now (even with the recent PR stuff.) Perhaps. But with multi player games, I think balance becomes a bigger concern. But I do think we are in pretty good shape. > > 1) Stability of the server. The server really needs to be able to run for da > > under heavy loads with no problems. > > The only remaining serious bug I know of is "that map bug": the one > where you come out of an exit and end up in the sea. I'll re-look at the enter_exit code - a rewrite may be in order in any case. But even that bug seems pretty rare. > > > 2) Scalibility of server. I don't know the most heavily loaded a server has > > been, but potentially if we are trying to make crossfire mainstream, this cou > > Honestly, I think we should make it easy for someone to play the > game by himself on his own machine. The game is great standalone as > well as networked, and I think we'd be better showing what crossfire > can be like played locally as well as on the... few... laggy.... > public servers. We should rename the client "crossfire", and have > it start up a server, "cfserv" locally if the player doesn't > select a network game: and all this stuff should be 1 package. Including the server with maps makes a pretty big distribution. For example, a client with sounds archive would probably be around 500k or so (presuming we only ship the raw sounds and don't do the au sounds). The bzip2 map archive is a tidy 2.6 megabtyes. Untarred, its like 15 megabytes (or 30 mb - don't remember if linux du shows blocks or kb). That becomes a non trivial archive. But more importantly, it probably would not be too hard to do binary only distributions of the client if you wanted to - binary distributions of the server would be more of a pain. But perhaps at least for unix folks, you want to force them to compile? As said, more players is good, but if they can't figure out how to compile & install the server, they probably will run into other troubles. Now what may be worthwhile is including a nice big notice with the client that you could get and set up a local server. And certainly, for many places (like behind firewalls), that may be the only viable option. > > > 3) Playability - how easy will it be for new players to play the game. Even > > some of the current public servers without many players, you can get into cas > > of various buildings/dungeons having bee ncleared out. With 30 players on a > > server, I could see it being quite difficult to find available dungeons. The > > only real solution to this I can see is just have a lot more maps/choices. > > Random maps. This is why I DID random maps. My whole reason for making > that huge exertion. > This is why I once proposed making cities where, by default, > each exit led to a random map. The random maps are pretty good. > They could be much better. However, no one has done significant work > on them but me. The existing potential of random maps has been only > 5% exploited.... For example, I could probably pretty much duplicate > nethack with random maps. But random maps are still persistant - ie, if I go on the goblin quest, those maps stick around for some amount of time (as evidenced by the fact I can go back and haul out my loot and make multiple trips). So while it may be easy to add lots of random maps, I don't recall a lot of exits leading to them right now. this is of course easy to fix, and maybe it should be worked on. I still think one of crossfires stronger points are the pre-made maps, but simply put, we can't make enough of those fast enough - perhaps with new players, we can get new maps created. > > > If possible, it would be much better to grow the user base slowly and not a > > sudden 10 or hundred fold increase. The former will let us address some of > > I disagree. We want a HUGE player base. We just don't want them all > joining public servers. Start up a server on their machine for them, > unless they specify a remote one. See note above. But my point is more that if you get tremendous growth and they find a large number of problems (server unstable or other major bugs), you may end up with a large dissatisfied user base who will never look at the game again (I've bought some games that were pretty poor in terms of reliability and made the decision not to buy that game/series again). I agree a very large user base is good. I would just like to get to that point over some amount of time (months) and not days. Hopefully, some of these new users will also set up public servers. And note that for windows client at least, their only real option is to play against a public server. Now the downside of windows only users is that they will not contribute much to the project, as they're not using the server code nor do we have a generic editor for other platforms. That later point is more difficult - the two solutions I could see would be to use a web based application for creating maps, use something like java which should run on all platforms, or resign ourselves to having to port the editor to each platform. For the current editor, this is probably a really big pain as it uses Xt (which I don't think as an easy translation), and the graphics code is mixed in much more than say on the client (which I've at least tried to isolate). > Well, we can try this out now. True. Helps if we have real players and not dummy logins or windows that aren't doing anything. > > Nah, I think you're taking this too seriously. People can live with > a few bugs or instability in their free game. Either that, or they > can help us fix it. Right now, we've not the manpower to do what > you're proposing, two CVS branches. I'd rather see a development-release > cycle, like many codes do. That's not to say we shouldn't make an > effort to respond to suggestions and fix bugs. But let's not turn > our hobby into a job. Fair enough, but to rephrase, you are basically saying to make a 1.0 release, branch continues forward, and patches, while integrated, will be handled by keeping a seperate patch file or the like with no additional releases. If so, then I would suggest this for a timeframe: In a few weeks, make a 0.99 release to get it out there (basically a 1.0 beta). Other than what we have and already proposed enhancements (gods rebalancing, PR adjustments), no new features. See how that release works out, and a month or so after that, release 1.0. Basically only difference from 0.99 is to squash some more bugs and try to balance any remaining issues. Sound reasonable? From andi.vogl at gmx.net Sat Dec 9 02:34:17 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] bug: too many archetypes? Message-ID: <000201c061ba$d3d90380$2821993e@kyle> Hi, Yesterday I've created a new 2x2-square monster: A "Giant Worm", attacking with acid, poison, slow and physical. It really looks nice because I didn?t draw it myself =)) Did it since I'm tired of seeing the same few dragons, titans and demons everywhere. But as I added it to my arches (local) and rebuilt them, I realized that the crossfire server didn't run anymore. I got an errormessage like: "Fatal error: hashtable for archetypes too small". CF abortet during the initialization process. After removing some other, unused arches, the bug was gone. But that I can't do on CVS ;) To verify the bug, just add about 5 new arches (of any content I guess) to the current up-to-date arch-dir. Please help me fix that bug and I'll reward you with a nice new CF-monster. Andreas V. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sat Dec 9 03:15:19 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:38:47 PST." <3A31E187.55AC2C16@scruz.net> Message-ID: <200012090915.BAA07490@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > > But we should think of some issues before doing reductions: > > are we seriously screwing fighter chars by doing these reductions? > > Remember, these characters are going up against high-level demons, > > undead, and things like Jessies. > > However, mages can also use cloaks, gloves, and boots without any real > problem, so it really helps both classes. True, but the AC only helps them when they're acting like fighters, in a fighter capacity. > If you want to help fighters and not mages, I think you really need to beef > shields and armors - things that cause significant spell point regen penaltie > and spell fumbling chances. Well, I honestly would like to see enchant-armour not add ac to boot, glove, cloak. I think that would do nicely. I've been doing some playing in a fighter recently, though, and I don't think it's too much of a problem as it is now. I.e., we should think about it, but it's not the top of our list of worries. > > I understand your point on levels, > > and I don't really have strong arguments against the cap. However, > > I don't have a problem with a non-existence of maps for players > level 100 > > Just because we allow the possibility doesn't mean we have to realize it. > > I can't think of anything I would do with a level 200 character, nor > > do I have any ideas on maps for such a char. > > But you will get some user base saying 'hey - I'm level 150 and there is > nothing to do in the game? Whats up?'. And if there is no point to those > higher levels, why allow it? > > If you want to make things interesting, cap the level and instead have some > very tough dungeons - tough enough that the player needs the right items and > them properly. With removal of immunity potions, this is a much more real > possiblity. > > I've also made this point before - if there is no limit on levels, people wi > start making level 150 or 500 or whatever level maps. I would much rather ma > creation be concentrated in a more narrow range. All of these points make sense: like I said, I have no strong arguments against your points. I'm just stating my opinion with no expectation of changing your mind or persuading anyone or forcing a change in the current policy. My personal reaction would be to not bother making maps for super-high-level people, and not bother playing a super-high-level char, but rather start new chars. "Hmm, time to try a troll-fighter. OK, now an elf-wizard. Hmm, a gnome-priest? How about a human-wizard following Gnarg?" > But my point is more, than using flags allow for greater flexibility. Sure, > you don't want the character to be wielding two artifact weapons, but do we > really want to prevent a dragonslayer and say a dagger +1? In terms of balan A dagger +1 obviously isn't offensive. However, a taifu +1 very probably is. I think setting level for taifu's, all archetype artifacts, all random artifacts, and certain map artifacts, and allowing only one "levelled" weapon is a sensible rule. However, I still am concerned about it a bit: what about a level 8 char: why would he use a shield instead of a second +4 long sword? He'd lose 3 ac, (shield +2), a loss of about 30%, but double his combat strength. It's not as bad if the second weapon is +0 and totally mundane. Even a dragonshield adds only 3ac, and a bit of armour: arguably well worth trading away for 2x damage if you don't need the fire protection. > > IMHO monster's level should be removed from the formula for calculating > > experience gains. Right now it's difficult to see how much experience > > a monster actually gives. A few high level monsters make it very easy > > for players to get to high levels, even though they have the same "exp" > > value as other low level monsters that are not so much easier to kill. > > This would make the level limit difficult to reach. > > I thought the simple exp system does this, but I then notice that > calc_skill_exp does not use this, and it appears that is used when killing > another creature. Actually, i like the level-difference-matters system on awarding experience. We could conceivably remove the "cap" on player level and experience and let the level-exp-diff system put a natural cap on it for us. I think the real problem here is that experience awards for various monsters is just off, as are their levels. > That is easy enough to change - should that also be changed for more than ju > combat? I sort of think perhaps it should - I know a low level character luc > enough to disarm a difficult trap can gets tons of experience. I think a difficult trap disarm is a feature rather than a bug. My characters typically lag agility levels far behind all the rest. (Until they get stealing). Let's not make it harder to advance in agility. PeterM From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sat Dec 9 03:49:21 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Future development & version 1.0. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Dec 2000 00:32:56 PST." <3A31EE38.A7DF30A0@scruz.net> Message-ID: <200012090949.BAA32493@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > > I think crossfire was a good game deserving of 1.0 years ago. It's > > been fun to play the entire time I've worked on it. I really think > > that in the last years, we've added icing to an already good cake. > > It was a good game before I ever touched it. > > I think before the client server split, crossfire would not have been ready > 1.0. Back when the server did remote x displays, lag was determined by the > laggiest connection. It was perfectly ready for 1.0 as a non-networked game. I have played much crossfire all by myself exploring the maps people have created. Crossfire is truly a worthy game based on that alone. > > > 1) Stability of the server. The server really needs to be able to run fo > > > under heavy loads with no problems. > > > > The only remaining serious bug I know of is "that map bug": the one > > where you come out of an exit and end up in the sea. > > I'll re-look at the enter_exit code - a rewrite may be in order in any case. > > But even that bug seems pretty rare. It's quite annoying though. It's the one thing we "really should fix". I don't understand that area of code very well, unfortunately. > Including the server with maps makes a pretty big distribution. For example > client with sounds archive would probably be around 500k or so (presuming we > only ship the raw sounds and don't do the au sounds). The bzip2 map archive > a tidy 2.6 megabtyes. Untarred, its like 15 megabytes (or 30 mb - don't > remember if linux du shows blocks or kb). That becomes a non trivial archive So 5M total for a complete server+maps+client distribution? And about 40M of disk space uncompressed? You... realize, of course, how lightweight those demands are compared to a great many games? Or to Netscape? I'll volunteer to put together RPMs of maps + clients + server: binary versions. I will need a client which will allow easy startup of the local server + metaserver support. I do not think making a binary version of the server would be difficult. I do not see why you think everyone would have to compile his or her own server. What is the difficulty with shipping server binaries? > > Random maps. This is why I DID random maps. My whole reason for making > > that huge exertion. > > This is why I once proposed making cities where, by default, > > each exit led to a random map. The random maps are pretty good. > > They could be much better. However, no one has done significant work > > on them but me. The existing potential of random maps has been only > > 5% exploited.... For example, I could probably pretty much duplicate > > nethack with random maps. > > But random maps are still persistant - ie, if I go on the goblin quest, thos > maps stick around for some amount of time (as evidenced by the fact I can go Certainly. What I was proposing was a greatly expanded application of random maps, such as a whole city with many buildings, all leading to deep random maps. I can also design random maps such that they lead to more random maps. > back and haul out my loot and make multiple trips). So while it may be easy > add lots of random maps, I don't recall a lot of exits leading to them right > now. No, there are about on the order of 10 right now. > this is of course easy to fix, and maybe it should be worked on. I still th > one of crossfires stronger points are the pre-made maps, but simply put, we > can't make enough of those fast enough - perhaps with new players, we can get > new maps created. True, which is another reason why I did random maps. Random maps can keep ahead of a rapidly growing playerbase, while set maps would have no hope. > And note that for windows client at least, their only real option is to play > against a public server. Now the downside of windows only users is that they Hmm, honestly, I wasn't considering "evangelizing" to Windows people. We can, of course, but I wasn't considering targeting them initially. I'm not too worried about not having a map editor for Windows. Let crossedit be their killer app which leads them to Linux! Certainly I don't see enough windows-programming-oomph currently around to do a windows crossedit, nor a new UNIX crossedit, for that matter. > True. Helps if we have real players and not dummy logins or windows that > aren't doing anything. Let's schedule a playday, then, on some server where we can run it under a debugger. Crossfire.csua could host it. > If so, then I would suggest this for a timeframe: > In a few weeks, make a 0.99 release to get it out there (basically a 1.0 > beta). Other than what we have and already proposed enhancements (gods > rebalancing, PR adjustments), no new features. > See how that release works out, and a month or so after that, release 1.0. > Basically only difference from 0.99 is to squash some more bugs and try to > balance any remaining issues. > > Sound reasonable? Better than reasonable, it sounds great. Let's: 1) finish up the Gods 2) finish up PR things 3) fiddle with the clients a bit to support the metaserver 4) and local-server-startup 5) find and crush bugs 6) tune balance and go to 0.99, 7) with 1.0 coming out a month after ...as you say. PeterM From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Sat Dec 9 12:43:15 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] gx11.c Message-ID: <20001209204315.A25851@tukki.jyu.fi> client/gx11.c:6526: the use of tmpnam' is dangerous, better use mkstemp' man tmpnam on debian unstable gives: BUGS Never use this function. Use tmpfile(3) instead. Any 'supported platforms' that lacks tmpfile? We really should get rid of these kind of warnings, if we aim for 1.0. To really make clean code, one can try to compile on MipsPro compiler on a sgi system with -fullwarn. Somewhere I read that nobody ever uses fullwarn, because it's nearly impossible to make code without warnings with fullwarn :-) I can even volunteer to do that if nobody else has access to a sgi system. The "Never use this comes ..." part from the fact, that the function is not completely thread safe, but if a function is deemed depriciated, we perhaps shouldn't use it? -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 9 15:39:39 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Future development & version 1.0. References: <200012090949.BAA32493@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A32A69B.85C7A3CC@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > > > The only remaining serious bug I know of is "that map bug": the one > > > where you come out of an exit and end up in the sea. > > > > I'll re-look at the enter_exit code - a rewrite may be in order in any case. > > > > But even that bug seems pretty rare. > > It's quite annoying though. It's the one thing we "really should fix". > I don't understand that area of code very well, unfortunately. The harder part is knowing if this is really fixed. I recall that this isn't a really reproducible bug, so play could go on a lot without really knowing if it is fixed (unless there is a real obvious error in the code). > So 5M total for a complete server+maps+client distribution? And about 40M > of disk space uncompressed? You... realize, of course, how lightweight > those demands are compared to a great many games? Or to Netscape? Its lightweight if you have a home system or work system. I'm curious if you are at a university what type of space they may give you now days. > > I'll volunteer to put together RPMs of maps + clients + server: > binary versions. I will need a client which will allow easy startup > of the local server + metaserver support. I do not think making > a binary version of the server would be difficult. I do not > see why you think everyone would have to compile his or her own > server. What is the difficulty with shipping server binaries? No real difficulty. There are probably more dependancies than on the client. > Certainly. What I was proposing was a greatly expanded application of > random maps, such as a whole city with many buildings, all leading to > deep random maps. I can also design random maps such that they lead to > more random maps. I'm not sure how deep I would want the random maps to get - and the problem remains that if that is a common set of maps that lead to a place a whole bunch of people want to go, the maps that lead there will tend not to get reset. I do like the idea of unused houses leading to random maps. > Better than reasonable, it sounds great. Let's: > 1) finish up the Gods I think Darth Bob said he would work on this. Note that the granting of prayers and whatnot in god.c need to be re-examined for PR code. > 2) finish up PR things Anything major here, or is it mostly twiddling of values? > 3) fiddle with the clients a bit to support the metaserver I'll do that. > 4) and local-server-startup A simple solution for this would just be a shell script that runs the server, waits 20 seconds or something for it to finish loading, and then runs the client. > 5) find and crush bugs > 6) tune balance and go to 0.99, Those two just have to get fixed as they are identified. From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 9 15:51:46 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:28 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry References: <200012090915.BAA07490@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A32A972.D22151CD@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > Well, I honestly would like to see enchant-armour not add ac to > boot, glove, cloak. I think that would do nicely. I would personally like to see much of the item enchantment removed from player control and instead by done on altars, magic pools, or other places. > > I've been doing some playing in a fighter recently, though, and I > don't think it's too much of a problem as it is now. I.e., > we should think about it, but it's not the top of our list of > worries. I actually find fighters probably the easiest to start off - lots of hit points, can kill things very quickly, and have the strength to haul everything back to town. I guess at some point the fighter falls behind (perhaps because as I alluded to, mages and spell casters damage for spells keep going up, where fighters really don't get any further benefit I don't think - they can pretty much already hit anything in sight). > A dagger +1 obviously isn't offensive. However, a taifu +1 very probably > is. I think setting level for taifu's, all archetype artifacts, all > random artifacts, and certain map artifacts, and allowing only one > "levelled" weapon is a sensible rule. > > However, I still am concerned about it a bit: what about a level > 8 char: why would he use a shield instead of a second +4 long sword? > He'd lose 3 ac, (shield +2), a loss of about 30%, > but double his combat strength. It's > not as bad if the second weapon is +0 and totally mundane. But I don't have a big problem with that - there will always be cases where it can be seen that some set of weapons is better. Even that mage may find using two daggers better than using a shield. In any case, I think the second weapon should have some penalties (less damage and hit chance), simply on the basis it is your off hand. That would make it so your not doubly effective (maybe 75% more effective lets say). But using two artifact weapons with all sorts of protections would pretty much always be unbalancing. > > Actually, i like the level-difference-matters system on awarding > experience. We could conceivably remove the "cap" on player level and > experience and let the level-exp-diff system put a natural cap on it > for us. > > I think the real problem here is that experience awards for various > monsters is just off, as are their levels. There is actually an option to control what behaviour (simple exp system). The typical problem with the level system is that if you manage to kill something several levels higher, you get gobs of exp - this can especially be true when you have arrows of assassination. Also, the current exp system needed for levels already increases as you gain levels, so that sort of takes into account that killing kobolds at level 10 is going to take you a long time. That was my reasoning for putting in the simple exp system - easier to adjust exp for monsters, fixes some problems with assassaniting higher level monsters, and the fact that player exp already increases what you need for each level. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Sat Dec 9 15:59:42 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] bug: too many archetypes? - hopefully fixed In-Reply-To: <000201c061ba$d3d90380$2821993e@kyle> Message-ID: <000001c0622b$5906af60$a89de23e@kyle> I wrote: > But as I added it to my arches (local) and rebuilt > them, I realized that the crossfire server didn't run > anymore. I got an errormessage like: > "Fatal error: hashtable for archetypes too small". In advice of several developers on IRC (especially Mark W.), I've set "#define ARCHTABLE 5003" in include/config.c (previous value was 2459). This should fix the bug I stated above. Seems like this started a big discussion on IRC concerning the hash-functions in our code. Some developers think that these need to be re-done since the current hash-functions might not provide best efficiency anymore. Anyways, we agreed to first test the performance with the current ARCHTABLE size. I'm going to insert my freaky new monster on cvs now as well. It will show up in the lower levels of the randommap below the "tower of the stars" (south-east of scorn). My personal advice: look, don't touch... ;) Andreas V. From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 9 15:59:40 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] gx11.c References: <20001209204315.A25851@tukki.jyu.fi> Message-ID: <3A32AB4C.2DDEC434@scruz.net> "Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)" wrote: > > client/gx11.c:6526: the use of tmpnam' is dangerous, better use mkstemp' > > man tmpnam on debian unstable gives: > BUGS > Never use this function. Use tmpfile(3) instead. > > Any 'supported platforms' that lacks tmpfile? Right now, tmpfile won't work for what the client needs it for. In fact, I believe the reason it is considered unsafe is exactly the reason the client needs it. IT is considered unsafe because it generates a supposedly unique name, but there is no guarantee that name is unique by the time you open the file. The reason the client needs it is because for png support, at the time I initially wrote it, it would only load from a given filename. And we need that filename to pass to the loading function. tmpfile doesn't give us a filename, only a file pointer. So once we close the file, it is lost. Now I did get it to work for crossedit such that I could give it a buffer of data. I can look at doing that in the client, and then we shouldn't need tmpnam (or tmpfiles for that matter) at all. From mtx93 at tzi.de Sat Dec 9 17:56:58 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] race patch, race face in cpl.ob->face and the "server don't send version bug" Message-ID: Hi I have worked out a new login interface for the dx client, and i want see the race face to the player, when he select his race. At the moment, the face is shown on the map, but not in the cpl.ob->face where later the players picture is. Can this please fixed, so i can get the race face from cpl.ob->face? I also finished the server login. Now the dx client show all servers and test them for ping and online. The client do it yet in the way, that he try a connect to the server, get the version cmd and log out then. This is the easiest way to test for speed and server online. I noticed there, that the server crossfire.jyu.fi is just in this nasty server bug state. This is also a old server problem: The server is running, and you get a connect, but he never answered to the version cmd, so client and server freeze after connect. I thought the bug was removed? MichToen From andi.vogl at gmx.net Sat Dec 9 22:02:30 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever Message-ID: <000001c0625e$06773f20$2899e23e@kyle> At first glance, polymorph seems like one cute little spell, completely harmless, no big deal. It turns out that this is completely wrong. Polymorph is a huge problem! The spell can be used in three different ways: o Polymorph items: In terms of gameplay - TERRIBLE! Not only that one can get all sorts of items that might not even be available in shops, one can even transform artifacts! I once casted polymorph over a bonecrusher and received a kobold dagger. I'm sure I would get a wdsm and magic cloak if I tried hard enough. But those items are supposed to be unique! The player should solve long quests to get them, not just sit there and cast a spell. o Polymorph monsters: This is the worst one by far! How can I defeat Gothwolte or Kasnuk (hardest monsters in the current mapset)? Fighting them? - Nooo... Much easier: Cast polymorph once and they end up as an orc, or maybe even as chicken! But they will still carry their original inventory of course. Do I have to say that this has certain negative effects concerning playbalance? o Polymorph generators: Rather harmless compared to the issues above. But still not good. One can abuse this to create certain generators, hence endless supply of monsters for collecting their loot: For example: Postmen for readables, vampires for spell- books/rings etc. Second problem: Fog is a generator. So guess what happens when you cast Polymorph at a fog? - Yes, you get a random monster generator. Since one can summon fog, this is possible on any given map. Even in scorn, or on savebed places, or in shops. One could annoy low-levels real bad with this trick! Hopefully all agree that we need to do sth. about that. I see only two ways: - Invent and code ideas to fix all the problems I mentioned above. That is HARD work, but who knows... - Remove Polymorph. All we need to do is make it unavailable. And when someone managed to fix it, we can make it accessable again. Andreas V. From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Sun Dec 10 00:44:58 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever In-Reply-To: <000001c0625e$06773f20$2899e23e@kyle>; from andi.vogl@gmx.net on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:02:30AM +0100 References: <000001c0625e$06773f20$2899e23e@kyle> Message-ID: <20001210084458.A172@tukki.jyu.fi> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:02:30AM +0100, Andreas Vogl wrote: > At first glance, polymorph seems like one cute little > spell, completely harmless, no big deal. > It turns out that this is completely wrong. Polymorph > is a huge problem! > > The spell can be used in three different ways: > > o Polymorph items: > In terms of gameplay - TERRIBLE! Not only that one can > get all sorts of items that might not even be available > in shops, one can even transform artifacts! I once casted > polymorph over a bonecrusher and received a kobold dagger. > I'm sure I would get a wdsm and magic cloak if I tried > hard enough. But those items are supposed to be unique! > The player should solve long quests to get them, not just > sit there and cast a spell. I never got anything useful with polymorph. I thought that you can only get less 'valuable' items with polymorph? I tried polymorphing a ton of girdle of damages (the old, useless ones) and never got anything. > o Polymorph generators: > Rather harmless compared to the issues above. But still > not good. One can abuse this to create certain generators, > hence endless supply of monsters for collecting their loot: > For example: Postmen for readables, vampires for spell- > books/rings etc. Second problem: Fog is a generator. > So guess what happens when you cast Polymorph at a fog? > - Yes, you get a random monster generator. Since one > can summon fog, this is possible on any given map. > Even in scorn, or on savebed places, or in shops. One > could annoy low-levels real bad with this trick! Guess how the stat wrap-a-round bug was used? One char with 600 SP would cast million summon fogs over about 6 squares and then he would fire a polymorph rod. In scorn, so one dies over and over and over and over and ... > - Remove Polymorph. All we need to do is make it unavailable. > And when someone managed to fix it, we can make it accessable > again. I think polymorphing monsters is the only real problem, as atleast me nor any of my friends ever got anything useful by polymorphing artifacts. (Not even the bloke who is lucky enough to have received katana of masamume from raffle) -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From mtx93 at tzi.de Sun Dec 10 01:04:37 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever In-Reply-To: <20001210084458.A172@tukki.jyu.fi> Message-ID: > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:02:30AM +0100, Andreas Vogl wrote: > > At first glance, polymorph seems like one cute little > > spell, completely harmless, no big deal. > > It turns out that this is completely wrong. Polymorph > > is a huge problem! > > > > The spell can be used in three different ways: > > > > o Polymorph items: > > In terms of gameplay - TERRIBLE! Not only that one can > > get all sorts of items that might not even be available > > in shops, one can even transform artifacts! I once casted > > polymorph over a bonecrusher and received a kobold dagger. > > I'm sure I would get a wdsm and magic cloak if I tried > > hard enough. But those items are supposed to be unique! > > The player should solve long quests to get them, not just > > sit there and cast a spell. > > I never got anything useful with polymorph. I thought that you > can only get > less 'valuable' items with polymorph? I tried polymorphing a ton of girdle > of damages (the old, useless ones) and never got anything. You will got a lot of good items when you know how. First ,all girdles polymorph with a chance of 66% in a different kind of girdle, 33% explode. Some lesser artifact weapons often change to shootingstars, best and rarest "normal" weapon in game, enchant it and you will beat 90% of all artifact weapons. There are only 2 very hard places in game where you can get them, but with polymorph you can get alot. Also, you can get luck dagger and, most worst, lava dasher with polymorph, both are most unique. Lava dasher has only 1 place ge can get ,with a bad chance even if you solve the quest for it. The fog thing (fog-> generator) is dangerous and not very logical. I use polymorph often after i got some artifacts and i boost most times my char with it (to get girdle of strength, lava dasher or even shootingstar). I also prefer to drop polymorph yet, lets do work an other things and when one has time and want it, it can be back. For real playing, there is no real use. MichToen From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 10 02:06:15 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever References: <000001c0625e$06773f20$2899e23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A333977.47A7C034@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > > > o Polymorph items: > In terms of gameplay - TERRIBLE! Not only that one can > get all sorts of items that might not even be available > in shops, one can even transform artifacts! I once casted > polymorph over a bonecrusher and received a kobold dagger. > I'm sure I would get a wdsm and magic cloak if I tried > hard enough. But those items are supposed to be unique! > The player should solve long quests to get them, not just > sit there and cast a spell. Looking at the code, there is a major bug in it. Instead of new items having less value than the old value, it checks to see if the new item value is greater than the old value. That is a one character change, and should fix that problem. > > o Polymorph monsters: > This is the worst one by far! How can I defeat Gothwolte > or Kasnuk (hardest monsters in the current mapset)? > Fighting them? - Nooo... Much easier: Cast polymorph once > and they end up as an orc, or maybe even as chicken! But > they will still carry their original inventory of course. > Do I have to say that this has certain negative effects > concerning playbalance? Currently, monsters get no saving throw - they are transformed. That is obviously wrong. A monster should get a saving throw as well as bonuses for magic resistance. That alone may make it impossible to polymorph very powerful monsters. Also, multisquare monsters are currently immune. Not a big deal, just a note I'm adding. > > o Polymorph generators: > Rather harmless compared to the issues above. But still > not good. One can abuse this to create certain generators, > hence endless supply of monsters for collecting their loot: > For example: Postmen for readables, vampires for spell- > books/rings etc. Second problem: Fog is a generator. > So guess what happens when you cast Polymorph at a fog? > - Yes, you get a random monster generator. Since one > can summon fog, this is possible on any given map. > Even in scorn, or on savebed places, or in shops. One > could annoy low-levels real bad with this trick! Do postmen generators exist? It would not be hard to remove the ability to polymorph fog, but this doesn't help with respect to other generators. More so, this can be a problem - you could polymorph a wyvern generator in a tight space such that you know the wyverns created are trapped and use whatever skills in relative safely to knock them off. Perhaps removing the ability to polymorph generators might be the best balancing change for this? From andi.vogl at gmx.net Sun Dec 10 06:28:17 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever In-Reply-To: <3A333977.47A7C034@scruz.net> Message-ID: <000101c062a4$ad929fc0$2899e23e@kyle> Mark W. wrote: > > o Polymorph items: [...] > > Looking at the code, there is a major bug in it. Instead of new > items having less value than the old value, it checks to see if the > new item value is greater than the old value. That is a one character > change, and should fix that problem. Fixing that is good, but it's not enough IMHO. Things like a lava-slasher aren't of higher value than other artifacts. Transforming a Chaos-Sword into a lava-slasher is still bad. Nobody ever used polymorph on items for other than abuse. You would need to specify TONS of special exceptions to define a "fair" trade of one item into another. Comparing the value only is not enough. I say: Disable polymorph on items. As a mapmaker, it makes me have nightmares. > > o Polymorph monsters: [...] > > Currently, monsters get no saving throw - they are transformed. > That is obviously wrong. A monster should get a saving throw as > well as bonuses for magic resistance. That alone may make it > impossible to polymorph very powerful monsters. Make all monsters above level 20 immune to polymorph. That, and nothing less, would seem acceptible to me. Transforming high level monsters is *always* bad. When I design a map, I want to rely on the fact that a player must really fight the monsters I put in. It is silly if a player can change the monsters to meet his personal favour. And like with artifacts<->value it's impossible to determine the true strenght of a monster just by looking at it's level! > > o Polymorph generators: > > Do postmen generators exist? Yes. > It would not be hard to remove the ability to polymorph fog, > but this doesn't help with respect to other generators. More so, > this can be a problem - you could polymorph a wyvern generator in a > tight space such that you know the wyverns created are trapped and > use whatever skills in relative safely to knock them off. > > Perhaps removing the ability to polymorph generators might be the > best balancing change for this? Great, I've got nothing to add here =)) Except that the points above should be considered as well. In general I have to say I see no point in spending massive amounts of work to improve the polymorph code. Even if we managed to have a totally balanced and fair polymorph-spell, it would still be invain since nobody would use it then. That spell is only interesting for players as long as they can cheat with it. I know that the idea of removing (or at least crippling) a feature might not cause enthusiasm, but in this case it seems neccessary. Andreas V. From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Sun Dec 10 15:48:07 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS update: crossfire/include In-Reply-To: <200012092131.NAA14225@boltzmann.eecs.berkeley.edu>; from crossfire-cvs-admin@lists.sourceforge.net on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 01:31:36PM -0800 References: <200012092131.NAA14225@boltzmann.eecs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20001210224807.A6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 01:31:36PM -0800, crossfire-cvs-admin@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: > -#define ARCHTABLE 2459 /* Used when hashing archetypes */ > +#define ARCHTABLE 3005 /* Used when hashing archetypes */ ^^^^ -- Jan From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Sun Dec 10 16:09:07 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: <200012090915.BAA07490@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 01:15:19AM -0800 References: <3A31E187.55AC2C16@scruz.net> <200012090915.BAA07490@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001210230907.B6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 01:15:19AM -0800, Peter Mardahl wrote: > Actually, i like the level-difference-matters system on awarding > experience. We could conceivably remove the "cap" on player level and > experience and let the level-exp-diff system put a natural cap on it > for us. The dependance on player level would still be there. But there is no need to include the monster's level in the formula. Just give high level monsters much experience. The monster's level is already used for many things like the level at which the monster casts spells, or how good it is protected against death attacks. > I think the real problem here is that experience awards for various > monsters is just off, as are their levels. The experience awards are way off because of the levels, but reducing the level breaks other things. > I think a difficult trap disarm is a feature rather than a bug. That's true, but trap_disarm() already uses its own formula for calculating the experience. Making the experience for killing a monster independent of monster's level doesn't affect this. -- Jan From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Sun Dec 10 16:17:03 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: <3A31E187.55AC2C16@scruz.net>; from mwedel@scruz.net on Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 11:38:47PM -0800 References: <200012080900.BAA32418@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> <3A31E187.55AC2C16@scruz.net> Message-ID: <20001210231703.C6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 11:38:47PM -0800, Mark Wedel wrote: > That is easy enough to change - should that also be changed for more than just > combat? I sort of think perhaps it should - I know a low level character lucky > enough to disarm a difficult trap can gets tons of experience. There's a general limit for gaining experience: At most half a level per add_exp() call. In my opinion, this is still too high. I think it could be reduced to 1/5 or 1/10 of a level. But this alone doesn't help against very high level monsters. A player would still get the maximum experience gain independant of his own level. He would just need to kill the monster 5 or 10 times instead of 2 times to advance one level. -- Jan From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 10 19:03:03 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Ello Message-ID: Hello again, I been quite busy of late and have thus gone quiet. The issue of multiple weapons and twohandedness has been put aside in favour of concentration on the major current issues. I am waiting on Jan's god intervention patch before I can begin to change the gods around. Mark I have said I will, and I will =). Currently we have all except two/three problems completely sorted out. Firstly, poisonous fog, and rather nasty Gnarg spell, has not been decided on. What do people think about this, poisonous fog will roughly follow players and move slightly faster than the current fog. If it goes over a monster that monster will rapidly get slower and have a nasty poison. This fog will also have the other qualities of fog, covering vision and stopping magic from passing (like a wall). Most importantly is that is is a fairly cheap spell and Gnarg players will be able to pump it out quite readily, shrouding themselves in an impentrable toxic cloud... sound cool? ;). Secondly, we have not resolved Holy Rage, currently it is one massive combo spell, consisting of heroism (I think), armour, protections given by god, and speed. If you cast it a few times you very quickly become EXTRAORDINARLY powerful =) with a speed up at 3.00 or 4.00 =), more health and faster hp regen. The simple thing to do would be limit it to one casting only, but this then raises the question, should we limit all the protection type spells? Due to the changes with PR resistance spells are now quite alot more useful, how should we handle this? Pete's suggestion was to limit it to only _1_ protection spell active at any time (includes protection, armour and rage spells). I agree with this except for armour which I think is currently quite well balanced (especially for Qs). We could also make Rage be cast a few times but only certain asspects of it will improve each time.. I am open to suggestions. Thirdly, items handed out by gods, there are a whole lot of issues regarding this. Firstly, players could sell them off, or give them to other players. This can be prevented by setting them to initial items and handing them directly into the players inventory. Is this satisfactory, Jan, can you work that in?. Secondly, there may be alot of issues regarding the relative "powerfulness" of handed out items. One would expect an item from mostrai to be fairly powerful, could I have some suggestion for good items to be handed out and their stats? I have a bad habit of adding items which turn out to be alittle more powerful than most other players would give. Also, I have a suggestion for acid. Could we change it to be like depleted stats? Instead of permanently corroding items, which makes acid one EXTREMELY fierce attack type, we could allow items to be "restored" perhaps with the skill of smithery? As you get higher smithery skills you can restore more of the weapon to its former self, rather like the "armour" spell, where you apply smithery and slowly the item can be restored back. Just a suggestion, but it really bugs me that items like, Dagger of Paralysis cannot ever be restored without adding alot of weight, because gods wont touch it to improve its enchantment. (Personally I would like to see Dagger of Poisoning etc be allowed to be worked on by Gods (Dagger of Poison of Mostrai, and then even cooler, Fog's Dagger of Poison of Mostrai... which makes it sound like one really cool weapon =)). While people seem to be against such, I think it adds a real aspect of an ultra cool weapon, that reaks of power... adds alot of coolness to crossfire being able to create new and unique weapons of your own, I REALLLLY love that idea. anyway thats all for now, dnh ps. AV, I haven't seen your worm yet, but I wouldn't mind knowing where you got it from... I read you borrowed it, I wouldn't mind playing the game you borrowed it from. pps I have got a very cool drawing of a Q, that has arms =), I will try to redo the png image of the Q so that it has arms (for holding weapon/s and perhaps even a shield ;)))) From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 10 19:56:38 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever References: <000101c062a4$ad929fc0$2899e23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A343456.801F2FDC@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > > Fixing that is good, but it's not enough IMHO. Things like a > lava-slasher aren't of higher value than other artifacts. > Transforming a Chaos-Sword into a lava-slasher is still bad. > Nobody ever used polymorph on items for other than abuse. > You would need to specify TONS of special exceptions to define > a "fair" trade of one item into another. Comparing the value > only is not enough. > I say: Disable polymorph on items. As a mapmaker, it makes me > have nightmares. If we disable polymorph on items, we might as well disable it completely. If the lava slasher is a superior weapon, I would argue it should have a higher value, so you could not transform it from a lesser artifact into that. But note that the way the polymorph code works (when it works properly) is that such transformations would be incredibly rare. Basically, it will pick one item from all the items of the same type (ie, weapons) of lower value. Being there are lots of mundane weapons and relative few artifacts, the chance of it picking a better artifact weapon is quite unlikely. More so, after the first polymorph of the artifact weapon, almost certainly it got transformed into a mundane weapon, like say an axe, and further polymorphs are only going to make it worse. So, for it to actually polymorph one artifact into another 'more worthwhile' one, you basically need to find one of higher value and be lucky enough that on the first try, it polymorphs into what you want it to be. To me, those conditions make it fairly unlikely for it to happen. And if it does, I don't think its a big deal. I find games that have such little quirks more interesting. Also note that the end result can only be items that is an archetype (ie, part of standard distribution). Items customized on maps can never appear, except for the base type it came from. So for example, you could try to polymorph all you want, but you'll never end up with any of the final weapons in the tower of demonology. So as a mapmaker, this should make no difference. The only case where this could perhaps be a problem if you give out a very high valued weapon that doesn't have much magic (say a jeweled sword). > Make all monsters above level 20 immune to polymorph. That, and > nothing less, would seem acceptible to me. Transforming high level > monsters is *always* bad. When I design a map, I want to rely on the > fact that a player must really fight the monsters I put in. > It is silly if a player can change the monsters to meet his personal > favour. And like with artifacts<->value it's impossible to determine > the true strenght of a monster just by looking at it's level! I was going to look at the saving throw code and see at what point monsters always make saves. Another thought I had would be to not polymorph monsters whose name does not match that of their archetype (in addition to other checks already mentioned). In this way, most custom monsters on maps will just be immune since they have non standard names. > In general I have to say I see no point in spending massive amounts of > work to improve the polymorph code. Even if we managed to have a totally > balanced and fair polymorph-spell, it would still be invain since > nobody would use it then. That spell is only interesting for players > as long as they can cheat with it. > I know that the idea of removing (or at least crippling) a feature > might not cause enthusiasm, but in this case it seems neccessary. So far, this discussion has probably taken more time than it will take to implement the suggested changes to polymorph. So these are only minor changes and quick to do. As per my comments under the items, I disagree on some points. Crossfire can never be 100% balanced, and if it was, I think it would be a very uninteresting game (100% balanced basically would mean all races/classes are equal at all levels, all items are balanced with respect to all others, etc). There will always be some cases - using such and such a spell to kill a specific monster works outstandingly well, items x,y,z are better than a,b,c, and so on. To me, what polymorph with the above changes will allow to happen: 1) You may be very lucky and be able to polymorph one artifact into another. Those are likely to be such rare occurances, I don't have a problem with it. 2) Polymorph will still be useful in some cases. Transforming monster X into monster Y to kill it/get past it seems perfectly fine. Transforming rings with a non useful protection into another might also work. 3) Polymorph will always be a net loss. You may get lucky in some cases and turn that ring resist poison +20 into a ring resist fire +20, or turn one artifact into another, but items get consumed and turned into garbage, and I don't think overall it will be a winning proposition for players. But it still will remain a nice curiosity. As per another discussion (I think it was the dual weapon thread) - not all weapons are useful (or the best), but I don't think that means they need to be removed. Keeping them in for color seems fine to me. Same is true for polymorph. Sure, it may generally not be used, but new players may have some fun with it. However, one thing I would do is remove all the rods of polymorph. Finding that wand and playing with it for a little while may be fun, but having a rod such you can play with it forever will probably cause polymorph to lose some of its mystery. From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 10 21:30:58 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Ello References: Message-ID: <3A344A72.31B62F0D@scruz.net> David Hurst wrote: > Thirdly, items handed out by gods, there are a whole lot of issues regarding > this. Firstly, players could sell them off, or give them to other players. > This can be prevented by setting them to initial items and handing them > directly into the players inventory. Is this satisfactory, Jan, can you work > that in?. Secondly, there may be alot of issues regarding the relative > "powerfulness" of handed out items. One would expect an item from mostrai to > be fairly powerful, could I have some suggestion for good items to be handed > out and their stats? I have a bad habit of adding items which turn out to be > alittle more powerful than most other players would give. I would rather that the value of the item be set to 0 (so it can't be sold for any money) than being marked as starting equipment. It would be quite annoying to accidentally drop that item and have it disappear. In terms of giving them to other players, if not already done, you could make it so that only followers of the same god could use the item. Sure, a high level player could give low level characters good god created items. However, at the same point, that high level character could give spellbooks or any number of good items, and I don't want to try and enforce that. In fact, it would seem perfectly reasonable from a multi player standpoint for a high level character to take some form of payment and give out good god enchanted weapons. > > Also, I have a suggestion for acid. Could we change it to be like depleted > stats? Instead of permanently corroding items, which makes acid one > EXTREMELY fierce attack type, we could allow items to be "restored" perhaps > with the skill of smithery? As you get higher smithery skills you can > restore more of the weapon to its former self, rather like the "armour" > spell, where you apply smithery and slowly the item can be restored back. > Just a suggestion, but it really bugs me that items like, Dagger of > Paralysis cannot ever be restored without adding alot of weight, because > gods wont touch it to improve its enchantment. (Personally I would like to > see Dagger of Poisoning etc be allowed to be worked on by Gods (Dagger of > Poison of Mostrai, and then even cooler, Fog's Dagger of Poison of > Mostrai... which makes it sound like one really cool weapon =)). While > people seem to be against such, I think it adds a real aspect of an ultra > cool weapon, that reaks of power... adds alot of coolness to crossfire being > able to create new and unique weapons of your own, I REALLLLY love that > idea. Depleting items could be done, but would require a bit of code to be added. I guess the easiest would be to store an original version of the object inside the damaged one. There may also be some problems with objects inside of objects going into containers. Additional damage to the object also needs to check to see if the object in the inventory necessarily is the damaged object. I think even normal objects having other objects in their inventory could be used to add many interesting abilities (say swords that have abilities). Doing depletion for player is relatively easy, because for the player we record the players original (natural) stats inside the player structure and then just apply all the adjustments, storing results in the player object structure which has easy referance. I agree depletion may by a neat feature (you could also just add wear and tear of armor for that matter), but with the current schedule, I would put this in post 1.0 release due to the number of changes involved. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sun Dec 10 22:50:28 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Poison Fog, Holy Rage, and other Force spells In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:03:03 +1100." Message-ID: <200012110450.UAA19665@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> On Poison Fog: My current idea is to do it like this: 1) Implement it using a modified lower-speed ball-lightning mover. 2) 3x3 size of cloud 3) cloud would seek a target, poison it, and then seek another target 4) Have the visual effect be 3x3 insead of 1x1 like ball lightning 1) and 3) require some moderate hacking of ball lightning to generalize it a bit and add some features so that the targeting will ignore previous victims. 4) also requires a moderate bit of hacking. > Secondly, we have not resolved Holy Rage, currently it is one massive combo > spell, consisting of heroism (I think), armour, protections given by god, > and speed. If you cast it a few times you very quickly become EXTRAORDINARLY > powerful =) with a speed up at 3.00 or 4.00 =), more health and faster hp On Rage: I've modifed spell_effect.c in the repository so that only one of any particular effect can be in force at a time, except armour, which may be cast multiple times. I.e., only ONE rage spell at a time will have effect. Repeated castings just restart the duration counter. I think the current state of it is reasonable. The spells effected are: stat spells, rage, haste, protection spells, immunities. On god-given items: > This can be prevented by setting them to initial items and handing them > directly into the players inventory. Is this satisfactory, Jan, can you work Setting start-equipment to 1 on these guys seems like a great solution to me. It even says something appropriate: "the god who lent it to you takes it back." > Also, I have a suggestion for acid. Could we change it to be like depleted > stats? Instead of permanently corroding items, which makes acid one This seems like a great idea, but one I'd like to see deferred until after 1.0. Unless someone can do the whole coding completely in the next couple of weeks. PeterM From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 10 22:02:09 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] race patch, race face in cpl.ob->face and the "server don't send version bug" References: Message-ID: <3A3451C1.73160B18@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: > > Hi > > I have worked out a new login interface for the dx client, > and i want see the race face to the player, when he select his > race. At the moment, the face is shown on the map, but not in the > cpl.ob->face where later the players picture is. > > Can this please fixed, so i can get the race face from cpl.ob->face? Fix is in CVS now. > > I also finished the server login. Now the dx client show all servers and > test them for ping and online. > > The client do it yet in the way, that he try a connect to the server, get > the > version cmd and log out then. This is the easiest way to test for speed and > server online. Yeah. It probably doesn't scale well if there are 100 servers to test, or if there are thousands of users doing this against the servers. But either way, at current time, not a big deal. > > I noticed there, that the server crossfire.jyu.fi is just in this nasty > server > bug state. This is also a old server problem: The server is running, and you > get > a connect, but he never answered to the version cmd, so client and server > freeze > after connect. I thought the bug was removed? This will happen in the following situations: 1) Server is running under debugger and has crashed, awaiting input from user. 2) Server is in an infinite loop. 3) Server is suspended (sigstop or the like) In both cases, the server has opened the socket to receive connections, which is why you can connect, but is yet to get in a state where connections will fail (for example, in case #1, if the server just crashes and generates a core, that machine won't accept connections anymore). all the situations above are rare, and if you want/need to handle this, you will need to put some timeouts in your client for the connection and request back. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sun Dec 10 22:36:10 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:29 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:17:03 +0100." <20001210231703.C6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> Message-ID: <200012110436.UAA26847@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 11:38:47PM -0800, Mark Wedel wrote: > There's a general limit for gaining experience: At most half a level > per add_exp() call. In my opinion, this is still too high. I think it > could be reduced to 1/5 or 1/10 of a level. But this alone doesn't > help against very high level monsters. A player would still get the > maximum experience gain independant of his own level. He would just > need to kill the monster 5 or 10 times instead of 2 times to advance > one level. I don't have any large problem with any of the other proposed changes to the experience system. I do have a problem with this. If some player comes up with a clever way to kill a monster and go up 1/2 a level in one go, I think it is great. If it doesn't require much cleverness, then the monster was worth too much. But 1/2 level monsters are pretty rare and usually at the end of quests, anyway: a nice reward for doing the quest. PeterM From andi.vogl at gmx.net Mon Dec 11 05:27:32 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever In-Reply-To: <3A343456.801F2FDC@scruz.net> Message-ID: <000001c06365$65138a40$18a4e23e@kyle> Mark W. wrote: > If we disable polymorph on items, we might as well disable it completely. > > If the lava slasher is a superior weapon, I would argue it should > have a higher value, so you could not transform it from a lesser > artifact into that. A lava-slasher or a kobold-dagger are surely not worth 5.000.000 or sth. But still I want players to solve the appropriate quests to get them. > But note that the way the polymorph code works (when it works properly) > is that such transformations would be incredibly rare. > > Basically, it will pick one item from all the items of the same type > (ie, weapons) of lower value. Being there are lots of mundane weapons > and relative few artifacts, the chance of it picking a better artifact > weapon is quite unlikely. [...] > > So, for it to actually polymorph one artifact into another 'more > worthwhile' one, you basically need to find one of higher value > and be lucky enough that on the first try, it polymorphs into what > you want it to be. > > To me, those conditions make it fairly unlikely for it to happen. > And if it does, I don't think its a big deal. I find games that > have such little quirks more interesting. > > Also note that the end result can only be items that is an archetype > (ie, part of standard distribution). Items customized on maps can > never appear, except for the base type it came from. So for example, > you could try to polymorph all you want, but you'll never end up with > any of the final weapons in the tower of demonology. > > So as a mapmaker, this should make no difference. The only case where > this could perhaps be a problem if you give out a very high valued weapon > that doesn't have much magic (say a jeweled sword). Well... okay, so be it. Make your changes, and when I got the feeling it is still possible to get a lava-slasher, wdsm or magic cloak via polymorph, then I will simply remove those from the arches. It's only a few artifacts that really bother me in that respect. > > Make all monsters above level 20 immune to polymorph. > > I was going to look at the saving throw code and see at what > point monsters always make saves. > > Another thought I had would be to not polymorph monsters whose name > does not match that of their archetype (in addition to other checks > already mentioned). In this way, most custom monsters on maps will > just be immune since they have non standard names. This's a good idea. But please make sure that the success-chance of polymorph on monsters also depends on the victim's level. At least beyond level 30 chances should be *very very* small - pleease. =) > > In general I have to say I see no point in spending massive amounts > > of work to improve the polymorph code. [...] > > So far, this discussion has probably taken more time than it will > take to implement the suggested changes to polymorph. So these are > only minor changes and quick to do. > > As per my comments under the items, I disagree on some points. > Crossfire can never be 100% balanced, and if it was, I think it > would be a very uninteresting game (100% balanced basically would > mean all races/classes are equal at all levels, all items are balanced > with respect to all others, etc). There are certainly ways to overdo "balancing". But for CF we don't have to fear that yet. ;) > There will always be some cases - using such and such a spell to kill > a specific monster works outstandingly well, items x,y,z are better > than a,b,c, and so on. > > To me, what polymorph with the above changes will allow to happen: > 1) You may be very lucky and be able to polymorph one artifact into > another. Those are likely to be such rare occurances, I don't have a > problem with it. Okay, when I remove the few critical artifacts from the arches, or maybe set them to very high value, I can live with that. > 2) Polymorph will still be useful in some cases. Transforming monster > X into monster Y to kill it/get past it seems perfectly fine. [...] If this doesn't work on special monsters (->archname) and past victim- level 30 chances run low, acceptable for me. > 3) Polymorph will always be a net loss. You may get lucky in some > cases and turn that ring resist poison +20 into a ring resist fire +20, > or turn one artifact into another, but items get consumed and turned > into garbage, and I don't think overall it will be a winning proposition > for players. But it still will remain a nice curiosity. > > As per another discussion (I think it was the dual weapon thread) - not > all weapons are useful (or the best), but I don't think that means they > need to be removed. Keeping them in for color seems fine to me. Same > is true for polymorph. Sure, it may generally not be used, but new > players may have some fun with it. I like "color" in games. If it doesn't violate playbalance it's fine. > However, one thing I would do is remove all the rods of polymorph. Finding > that wand and playing with it for a little while may be fun, but having a rod > such you can play with it forever will probably cause polymorph to lose > some of its mystery. Yes, I certainly agree. Andreas V. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Mon Dec 11 14:18:37 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] improving the PR-code (patch written) Message-ID: <000001c063af$8dd447e0$2f15993e@kyle> I tested the new PR code and felt that it is good, but still not perfect. The calculation for partial resistances works well for positive values, but for negative it doesn't. Examples: +50 and -50 makes +25 ...huh? -40 and -40 makes -96 ...d'oh! Moreover, the way potions work doesn't please me. We've created partial protections to get rid of immunties. But potions still grant +100% (immunity). Hence, not too much has really changed yet. Now I've written a patch, to make the PR-calculations perfect. Get it at (read INSTALL.txt for installation hints). Here's what my patch does: o I calculate positive and negative resistances seperately. The negative res. are calculated exactly like the positive. Then I take: "overall resistance = total positive - total negative". Advantage: Negative resistances are calculated in a "logical" way. For example: +50 and -50 makes zero. -40 and -40 makes -64. o Many People have stated their wish for "caps" on resistances. With my scheme vulnerabilities work automatically as caps for protection. Example: While wearing one item with fire -20, you cannot get more than fire +80 overall from equipment! (it's simple: +100% -20% = +80%) This will greatly help to balance powerful artifacts. If there is an artifact with "cold +100", we add a "fire -5" and viol?: Impossible to get both cold +100 and fire +100 by using that item! And if one is forced to live with hight vulnerability for permanent (like wraith: fire -30), one can still use a potion to go beyond the natural cap (see next point). o Potions work completely different than before. The so-called "immunity-potions" grant an absolute value of 90% protection, independant from the players's equipment and properties! Minor potions/balms grant 50%. If the player has already got more protection than that, the potion won't have any effect. Example: I have fire +50 and drink a "potion of fire res." - so I get fire +90. If I have fire +95 by equipment and drink the same potion - nothing happens. Great advantage: While newbies can use potions very efficiently, high-level characters can't abuse them to beat the game. 90% resist. is good for killing some dragons, but it won't suffice to kill a "grandmaster wizard" at clevel 18. o Cursed resistance potions are working now (have been broken before). They give a temporare vulnerability, but can be overriden by uncursed potions of the same resistance-type. Like all potions they give an absolute value (-100% or -50%), so they are truely dangerous while in effect. o Protection spells work different than potions. Their effect does add to the player's equipment. (Maybe +50% resistance for spells is a bit too much though... I consider changing it to +30%, but this is not part of my patch yet). I think this is fun because it makes combat more interesting: While your equipment might already be good you still have the option to gain an additional 30% by casting that spell. Not much, but maybe the small tweak deciding over life and death. (Fortunately, Peter has modified the spells so that no more than one protection spell (of same type) can be in effect) o When the player's state of resistance changes, a new kind of message shows up: The percentage of the new (current) resistance is displayed. I consider this very helpful, especially in combat. It just plain sucks to need a rod of perceive self all the time. That worked fine while there was no more than two classes of resistances (prot. & immu.), but now this is no longer acceptible. Okay, that's all. I know this might be hard to understand without being able to test it. Now this is why I wrote the patch *before* starting to babble about it. Maybe some of you might be afraid that there are some cute little bugs lurking in my patch. Well, look at it and you'll see that it is real easy code. In fact I have tested it seriously and even more, I have *fixed* some bugs with my patch. But still, nobody's perfect... at least I tried my best. Like you can all imagine, I would be glad if this peace of work found common acceptance. I believe it would really add a great deal of both gaming-fun and game-balance. Andreas V. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Dec 11 15:29:42 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] improving the PR-code (patch written) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:18:37 +0100." <000001c063af$8dd447e0$2f15993e@kyle> Message-ID: <200012112129.NAA00937@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > I tested the new PR code and felt that it is good, but still > not perfect. > > The calculation for partial resistances works well for > positive values, but for negative it doesn't. Examples: > +50 and -50 makes +25 ...huh? I think this case is actually good. At -100, it'd be VERY hard for a troll to resist fire even with lots of items. Mark's system makes it possible, though stillhard. Also, a cap of +0 for a troll would be rather harsh. How about this modification: use your system, but -50 ==> double damage (-100 ==> quadruple damage) give trolls and wraiths -30 (1.6x damage) and their "cap" would be +70? > -40 and -40 makes -96 ...d'oh! > > Moreover, the way potions work doesn't please me. We've created > partial protections to get rid of immunties. But potions still > grant +100% (immunity). Hence, not too much has really changed yet. > > > Now I've written a patch, to make the PR-calculations perfect. > Get it at > (read INSTALL.txt for installation hints). > > Here's what my patch does: > > o I calculate positive and negative resistances seperately. The > negative res. are calculated exactly like the positive. Then I > take: "overall resistance = total positive - total negative". > Advantage: Negative resistances are calculated in a "logical" way. > For example: +50 and -50 makes zero. -40 and -40 makes -64. > > o Many People have stated their wish for "caps" on resistances. > With my scheme vulnerabilities work automatically as caps for > protection. Example: While wearing one item with fire -20, you > cannot get more than fire +80 overall from equipment! > (it's simple: +100% -20% = +80%) > This will greatly help to balance powerful artifacts. If there > is an artifact with "cold +100", we add a "fire -5" and violà: > Impossible to get both cold +100 and fire +100 by using that > item! > And if one is forced to live with hight vulnerability for > permanent (like wraith: fire -30), one can still use a potion > to go beyond the natural cap (see next point). > > o Potions work completely different than before. The so-called > "immunity-potions" grant an absolute value of 90% protection, > independant from the players's equipment and properties! > Minor potions/balms grant 50%. If the player has already got > more protection than that, the potion won't have any effect. > Example: I have fire +50 and drink a "potion of fire res." > - so I get fire +90. If I have fire +95 by equipment and drink > the same potion - nothing happens. > Great advantage: While newbies can use potions very efficiently, > high-level characters can't abuse them to beat the game. > 90% resist. is good for killing some dragons, but it won't > suffice to kill a "grandmaster wizard" at clevel 18. > > o Cursed resistance potions are working now (have been broken > before). They give a temporare vulnerability, but can be > overriden by uncursed potions of the same resistance-type. > Like all potions they give an absolute value (-100% or -50%), > so they are truely dangerous while in effect. > > o Protection spells work different than potions. Their effect does > add to the player's equipment. (Maybe +50% resistance for spells > is a bit too much though... I consider changing it to +30%, but > this is not part of my patch yet). > I think this is fun because it makes combat more interesting: > While your equipment might already be good you still have the > option to gain an additional 30% by casting that spell. Not > much, but maybe the small tweak deciding over life and death. > (Fortunately, Peter has modified the spells so that no more > than one protection spell (of same type) can be in effect) > > o When the player's state of resistance changes, a new kind of > message shows up: The percentage of the new (current) resistance > is displayed. I consider this very helpful, especially in combat. > It just plain sucks to need a rod of perceive self all the time. > That worked fine while there was no more than two classes of > resistances (prot. & immu.), but now this is no longer acceptible. > > > Okay, that's all. I know this might be hard to understand without > being able to test it. Now this is why I wrote the patch *before* > starting to babble about it. > > Maybe some of you might be afraid that there are some cute little > bugs lurking in my patch. Well, look at it and you'll see that it > is real easy code. In fact I have tested it seriously and even more, > I have *fixed* some bugs with my patch. But still, nobody's perfect... > at least I tried my best. > > Like you can all imagine, I would be glad if this peace of work > found common acceptance. I believe it would really add a great deal > of both gaming-fun and game-balance. > > > Andreas V. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 11 22:45:14 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever References: <000001c06365$65138a40$18a4e23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A35AD5A.BECCF7F5@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > > Mark W. wrote: > > > If we disable polymorph on items, we might as well disable it completely. > > > > If the lava slasher is a superior weapon, I would argue it should > > have a higher value, so you could not transform it from a lesser > > artifact into that. > > A lava-slasher or a kobold-dagger are surely not worth 5.000.000 or sth. > But still I want players to solve the appropriate quests to get them. I was a bit wrong in how polymorph would check on value of item. Before, you could basically polymorph a really expensive item into one of the same of lesser value. Also, items can increase in value up to double value (but if greater than 20,000, you could get the same value) In my modifications, the max value for expensive items (>20,000 sp) is 20,000 + (old value-20000)*2/3 This can easily be adjusted further downward. And 20,000 may be too high to be considered really expensive. But i notice the lava slasher has a value of 220,000, so to be able to polymorph something into it, it would basically have to be work around 310,000 or something (rough approximitation). Also, it is unclear whether such polymorph have ever happened, or if it just seemed like a possiblity from anecdoctal evidence. > This's a good idea. But please make sure that the success-chance > of polymorph on monsters also depends on the victim's level. At least > beyond level 30 chances should be *very very* small - pleease. =) Right now, chance of success is only by victim's level, and not a difference. It is coded in that anyone over level 20 is immune, and lower levels still get a saving throw, modified by their resistance to magic. > Okay, when I remove the few critical artifacts from the arches, or > maybe set them to very high value, I can live with that. I will note that the need for artifacts to be archetypes is reduced some. At one point, animations for objects where in the archetype, so if you wanted something animated, you needed a corresponding arch for it. Now, you can set animations at will, as it is in the object. Granted, the images still need to be part of the archetypes, but that isn't a big deal. > If this doesn't work on special monsters (->archname) and past victim- > level 30 chances run low, acceptable for me. I didn't put in a check for monster name, but monsters do get a save, and anything above level 30 is immune. If only wands are available and with limited charges, trying to transform some monsters may be difficult. Also, as it was before, multisquare monsters are still immune. I'm guessing that originally was the case because trying to find a new multisquare monster of the same size was fairly difficult (and not a huge number in any case). From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 11 22:52:29 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] improving the PR-code (patch written) References: <000001c063af$8dd447e0$2f15993e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A35AF0D.781052F8@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > o When the player's state of resistance changes, a new kind of > message shows up: The percentage of the new (current) resistance > is displayed. I consider this very helpful, especially in combat. > It just plain sucks to need a rod of perceive self all the time. > That worked fine while there was no more than two classes of > resistances (prot. & immu.), but now this is no longer acceptible. Just a note, the two unix clients have been modified to show resistance values (in numeric form) in the stat bar window. So it is very easy to see what your resistance values are. Since the client knows when resistances change, it could generate the message is so desired. This isn't a big deal, but I just wanted to make people aware of this feature of the client. You will need to grab the CVS client, as this was not in the last official release. From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Tue Dec 12 10:12:58 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: <200012110436.UAA26847@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 08:36:10PM -0800 References: <20001210231703.C6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> <200012110436.UAA26847@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001212171258.A24858@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 08:36:10PM -0800, Peter Mardahl wrote: > If some player comes up with a clever way to kill a monster and go > up 1/2 a level in one go, I think it is great. If it doesn't require > much cleverness, then the monster was worth too much. Players will often find an easier way to kill a monster than the map creator expected. One such monster is enough to gain half a level per map reset - without doing anything worth that experience gain. But I have to admit that lowering the limit would only reduce the symptoms and not cure the disease. > But 1/2 level monsters are pretty rare and usually at the end of quests, > anyway: a nice reward for doing the quest. They are not that rare, and one such monster is already too much. For example, you can get several levels of agility experience and one level of another experience type in the prison in Butakis with very little difficulty, and even when you already have a high level. Another example is the demilich. You can get to level 30 very quickly once you're powerful enough to kill one demilich, there are also maps with many demilichs on them. But I must agree that lowering the limit would make a 1/2 level reward at the end of a long quest impossible. The only solution seems to be keeping the 1/2 level limit, but changing the experience formula such that there can be level 100 monsters that don't always give maximum experience gains. -- Jan From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 12 13:23:06 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Search feature on Website and Mailing lists Message-ID: A UdmSearch upgrade required a re-index of the mailing lists and website. This process has been running for 4 days now and is about 30% done. :-( So, if you try to use the search feature, you will encounter query errors. I will send out a followup when the re-index is complete. - Rick Tanner leaf@real-time.com From jbontje at suespammers.org Tue Dec 12 16:13:19 2000 From: jbontje at suespammers.org (Joris Bontje) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] server bug: version cmd Message-ID: <3A36B10F.21230.904E4C@localhost> Currently there is a bug in the serverside handling of the version command. If you break the connection to the server fast enough after sending/receiving the version cmd, the server will lock in the login-loop, new connections won't be accepted anymore. The logfile is then flooded with: "doeric_server: error on accept: Invalid argument doeric_server: error on accept" It is very serious, getting more CF players this bug will occure more often. Maybe this is why some admins kill crossfire every 3 hour with cron. -- cut -- Mark, you have added an option to the metaserver to connect to port tcp 13326 and then let a client retrieve information. I have tested this with telnet and netcat but it doesn't seem to work, have you updated the running metaserver? Joris Bontje / MiDS --- The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address From andi.vogl at gmx.net Tue Dec 12 16:40:30 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] improving the PR-code (patch written) In-Reply-To: <200012112129.NAA00937@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <000001c0648c$8b2487c0$e319993e@kyle> I'm sorry that this and my previous mail are rather long and not at every point easy to understand. I try to make myself as clear and short as possible. If there are still unsolved mysteries, please ask me on IRC. If you got time, simply download and test my patch: . Another note: I'd appreciate it very much if the process to make my patch accepted and "official" (-> CVS) would not take extra long. It's just because my patch includes numerous files and I'm afraid it might get outdated after a short while, meaning doubled work for me. =) In the last two days I asked every developer I met on IRC about his opinion to my pr-patch. (Thanks for your patience guys!) They are all in favour, except for two minor issues: (Skip this paragraph if your time is spare.) 1. protection values for potions: Several people were afraid that 90% resistance for potions might not be sufficient. Expecially since some Races (Wraith, Troll) must rely on potions due to "caps" from vulnerabilities. (-> Remember: Vuln. caps can only be surpassed by the use of potions) Here's my strategie to solve that problem: First of all: 90% resistance is A LOT! Example: A lvl 1 character (miserable stats) with nothing but a cloak granting fire +90, cannot be hurt by the fiery breath of a red-dragon. (because the damage is < 1). I entered the dragon-hangar (dragonisland) with an average lvl 60 char with all resistances at 90% (except magic - 0%). I had a fairly easy time clearing the map out - with melee combat. I did receive damage but slow enough to heal myself. => So, I still think 90% is the perfect value for "immu"-potions. If it would turn out that 90% is too low in some cases, I will introduce a new hyper-duper-potion with 95%, only for fire and cold. It will be quite rare and expensive though. 2. vuln. caps for races: With my calc. scheme, worse than -30% fire (or maybe -50%) for the races wraith/troll would probably be too hard at high levels. But at low levels -30% might be rather harmless (1.3 x damage). Personally I believe it's okay, since the disadvantage of fire-vuln will always stick to the character during his whole (virtual-)life. At any point he will have a total amount of 30 less fire resistance than other races with same equipment. Peter M. proposed, in terms of damage, we should make vulnerabilities count doubled: So, if a player has a total of -30% res. to fire, internally it will be treated like -60%, but if one got +30% this is treated just normal. (This is what Peter was trying to say in his previous post). I have no objections to that and it's easy to do. Still, I would prefer not to insert this in my patch right now, but to add it later. Finally, to answer Mark's post: > Just a note, the two unix clients have been modified to show resistance > values (in numeric form) in the stat bar window. So it is very easy to > see what your resistance values are. I'm aware of that. But I believe that the message "your resistance to fire rises to 58%" is still far more interesting than "you feel more resistant to fire". If there is still someone having major objections to my patch, please take the time to post them, or even better: Meet me on IRC. AndreasV. From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 12 17:59:03 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] improving the PR-code (patch written) In-Reply-To: <000001c0648c$8b2487c0$e319993e@kyle> Message-ID: > I'm sorry that this and my previous mail are rather long and not > at every point easy to understand. I try to make myself as clear > and short as possible. If there are still unsolved mysteries, please > ask me on IRC. If you got time, simply download and test my patch: > . > > Another note: I'd appreciate it very much if the process to make my > patch accepted and "official" (-> CVS) would not take extra long. It's > just because my patch includes numerous files and I'm afraid it might > get outdated after a short while, meaning doubled work for me. =) > > In the last two days I asked every developer I met on IRC about his > opinion to my pr-patch. (Thanks for your patience guys!) > > They are all in favour, except for two minor issues: > (Skip this paragraph if your time is spare.) > > 1. protection values for potions: > Several people were afraid that 90% resistance for potions might > not be sufficient. Expecially since some Races (Wraith, Troll) must > rely on potions due to "caps" from vulnerabilities. > (-> Remember: Vuln. caps can only be surpassed by the use of potions) > > Here's my strategie to solve that problem: > First of all: 90% resistance is A LOT! Example: A lvl 1 character > (miserable stats) with nothing but a cloak granting fire +90, > cannot be hurt by the fiery breath of a red-dragon. (because > the damage is < 1). > I entered the dragon-hangar (dragonisland) with an average lvl 60 > char with all resistances at 90% (except magic - 0%). I had a > fairly easy time clearing the map out - with melee combat. I did > receive damage but slow enough to heal myself. > => So, I still think 90% is the perfect value for "immu"-potions. > If it would turn out that 90% is too low in some cases, I will > introduce a new hyper-duper-potion with 95%, only for fire and > cold. It will be quite rare and expensive though. I think this is the point: The dragon hangar is a nightmare. I get killed dozens of times because my immun. potions wear out. But what i really don't like is the idea, to go into the hangar without fear. I like your PR system, lets put it in. We have to test it, the only way to find out the good or bad things. - we must test out the "cap" or whatever we call it, to make it impossible to get to much resistance on to low level (or to high on high level, this will kill the fun for high players too. You must EVER fear the dead!). The caps/items should so be prepared that you NEVER can't enter the dragon hangar or other creepy areas of the game without doing some hard work - not even as level 100 char - you should ever fear the dead, in this hard areas alot at all levels. I don't like the immunity potions in an other way: You never got them when you need it (to buy) or you got the false. When i want to go to a quest i want play it, don't run like an idiot through all shops. It is not "user friendly". Perhaps we can use spells for it. They give you the high res we need. But they can wear out. And thats what i like: Prepare for fight, do some things under time stress, run in safe area and prepare again. Spells will fit for this, and better as potions you get them without buying it. And more, spells will fit in the level scheme we have: make - minor xxx protection level at level 1-4 - medium xxx protection at level 10-15 - major xxx protection at level 25+ It is there no other way to make you immun/high PR to something this will be a good thing for map making and others. I prefer a lazy wear out: if you cast/drink or do something else to get the high res. for solving the hard places - the effect should come in real time - it should hold on some times (like the potions yet) - and then they start to wear off - slow the first seconds, then very fast in 2-3 seconds This will make some fun (put high your adrenalin if your see your PR- values start to drop in your client and still in some edges of the hangar) and it will give you some chance to leave. Remember that very hard monsters can kill you in 1-2 seconds if they can really strike you, that kills you so fast yet if your Immunity wear off. No chance to act against it. I prefer to put in the PR stuff and test it out. Lets try some, make different CVS versions with different values and lets test it, the only way to find the fun. MichToen MichToen From mtx93 at tzi.de Tue Dec 12 22:44:20 2000 From: mtx93 at tzi.de (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] server bug: login loop Message-ID: Hi Some more info about the server bug in the socket/connect part. I can now kill the server on demand with it, setting it in a inifitive loop where you can connect but never recieve any data. It is a socket error. To kill the server, connect to him, send a version command, wait for getting the command, break the connect after you get the version command. Now the Server writes to his terminal: CS: connection from client of type CF DX CLIENT ReadPacket got an error.: Connection reset by peer ReadPacket got error 104, returning 0 Now, to kill the server simply try another connect in about 150 ms!! My client polls the server to a ping, if he has only one server or you break the connect with esc, he trys the same server fast again. i put a sleep(250) for the socket init routine... All works fine. Make it to sleep(<150), the server get killed 100%! Then he puts out to the terminal: Waiting for connections... doeric_serover: error on select: Bad file descriptor (*serover? hey, there is a bug in the bug msg :) *) doeric_server: error on select Well, i am not in the server code, but it should be not so hard to find. Of course, this explains why server with more or bad connection dies so often. In the first case, the chance to get 2 connects in 100 ms with the same scheme is higher, in the 2nd case the chance that the connect break and the client tries again ist also higher. All remember that when the server get kills in old days, and you try to connect after it fast, you often kills the server in this way? Thing about it, that makes sense. MichToen From mwedel at scruz.net Wed Dec 13 01:10:02 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] server bug: version cmd References: <3A36B10F.21230.904E4C@localhost> Message-ID: <3A3720CA.491C486B@scruz.net> Joris Bontje wrote: > > Currently there is a bug in the serverside handling of the version > command. If you break the connection to the server fast enough > after sending/receiving the version cmd, the server will lock in the > login-loop, new connections won't be accepted anymore. > The logfile is then flooded with: > "doeric_server: error on accept: Invalid argument > doeric_server: error on accept" I've checked in some code that I think may fix this. I can't reproduce the system on my system, but just on code inspection I noticed that we were not initializing the status of the socket, so if the accept failed, the status could be in some state such that the program would think its an active socket. The code change to socket/loop.c is very minor - if someone who knows how to reproduce the system can verify if this is fixed, I would appreciate it. > Mark, you have added an option to the metaserver to connect to > port tcp 13326 and then let a client retrieve information. I have > tested this with telnet and netcat but it doesn't seem to work, have > you updated the running metaserver? Hopefully its OK now. I know the code works - its a matter of allowing ipfilter to allow connections to that port/protocol (before I had only allowed udp connections to that port). From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Wed Dec 13 11:21:40 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:30 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] new email Message-ID: Hi My email has changed from mtx93@tzi.de to michael.toennies.nord-com.net Please update your contacts. thanks MichToen From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Wed Dec 13 18:14:35 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:31 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] pngs Message-ID: Hi I have done some work with pngs and i run in some glitches. As the png lib writes, the transparent color of a png can be accessed in a special way, i don't remember exact. You must get the transparent index, and this shows of a table of numbers which present the transparent colors ( or so). The point is, as i implement it first time, it don't worked. Not with the pngs from the cf arches, not with paint shop from windows. As i search, i find out, that the transparent index not would handled as an index, it was the number of the transparent color. As i handled it in this way, all worked fine. Now tells me AV, that there was problems with my png in linux clients. Also program von image magick (good picture tools) tells me some absolut different. if i use the tool identify from it and use it on the behold_eye.png from the cf lib (original) i got this: Image: behold_eye.111.png Format: PNG (Portable Network Graphics) Type: true color with transparency Class: DirectClass Geometry: 32x32 Depth: 8 Matte: True Colors: 13 126: ( 0, 0, 0) #000000 black 14: ( 0, 49, 0) #003100 #003100 2: ( 0, 0,127) #00007f #00007f 695: ( 18, 52, 86) #123456 #123456 <- ** this is the background color ** 43: ( 99, 50, 29) #63321d #63321d 16: (127,127,127) #7f7f7f gray50 1: ( 45,138, 86) #2d8a56 #2d8a56 20: (175, 47, 95) #af2f5f #af2f5f 9: (159, 81, 44) #9f512c #9f512c 30: (249,127,113) #f97f71 #f97f71 6: (205,133, 63) #cd853f peru 17: (191,191,191) #bfbfbf gray75 45: (255,255,255) #ffffff gray100 Filesize: 307b Interlace: None Background Color: gray100 <------------- ?????????? Border Color: #dfdfdf Matte Color: gray74 Delay: 100 Compression: Zip Signature: d04658dbef4acf6af0d88817099137e5 Tainted: False User Time: 0.0u Elapsed Time: 0:01 Because this is the original, the transparent color is the #123456 one. The linux client should find this out, my paint shop also knows this as right color, also my client use #123456. But the image magick refer gray100? Is the background color = transparent color? If yes, why the tool refer it false? If no, why are the transparent color is not list? Now some strange come. I find out, that many of the "full color" tiles like the mountains, which not have any visible trans- parent color, are broken for me. - they are 16 or 256 palette pics with false color key (like swamp.111.png i included) - they are 16m true color pics. My client, but also paint shop etc. can't find a transparent color, even the png refers no one. Because it is a set format for textures and game pictures, in true color, color 000 RGB = black is transparent as default. Because there are more and more use for alpha pictures, stencil mask, etc. this is very useful. Also, many 3D cards works not in any case ok, when they got fancy color keys in true color textures. For cf, in later years true color pics will come more and more. At the moment there is no color key we give them for there pics. That can cause some problems, if people start to render pictures. They have often more than 256 colors and can't saved as palette pictures. So we need a default color key for true color pictures. Shown with image magick, this comes out. At this point, its interesting to look what identify from IM gives me for a true color pic from the original cf lib: Image: mountain_2.311.png Format: PNG (Portable Network Graphics) Type: true color Class: DirectClass Geometry: 32x32 Depth: 8 Matte: False Colors: 9 174: ( 0, 0, 0) #000000 black 30: ( 0, 49, 0) #003100 #003100 67: ( 99, 50, 29) #63321d #63321d 5: ( 99, 68, 18) #634412 #634412 237: (127,127,127) #7f7f7f gray50 19: ( 45,138, 86) #2d8a56 #2d8a56 447: (191,191,191) #bfbfbf gray75 5: (254,191,202) #febfca #febfca 40: (255,255,255) #ffffff gray100 Filesize: 1025b Interlace: None Background Color: gray100 Border Color: #dfdfdf Matte Color: gray74 Delay: 100 Compression: Zip Signature: 94e2dee0ad7e65509c17e62257f5d153 Tainted: False But gray100 should NOT the color key... It can't be above too. For this mountain picture with 8 colors, it absolutly nonsense to safe them as true color!!! they have about 1.100 bytes as true color, saved as 16 bit palette they have about 500!! 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Name: mountain2.111.png Type: image/png Size: 562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20001214/548a4611/mountain2.111.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: evergreens.111.png Type: image/png Size: 516 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20001214/548a4611/evergreens.111.png From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Wed Dec 13 18:16:12 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:31 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] pngs, sorry don't send all of the last msg Message-ID: Hi I have done some work with pngs and i run in some glitches. As the png lib writes, the transparent color of a png can be accessed in a special way, i don't remember exact. You must get the transparent index, and this shows of a table of numbers which present the transparent colors ( or so). The point is, as i implement it first time, it don't worked. Not with the pngs from the cf arches, not with paint shop from windows. As i search, i find out, that the transparent index not would handled as an index, it was the number of the transparent color. As i handled it in this way, all worked fine. Now tells me AV, that there was problems with my png in linux clients. Also program von image magick (good picture tools) tells me some absolut different. if i use the tool identify from it and use it on the behold_eye.png from the cf lib (original) i got this: Image: behold_eye.111.png Format: PNG (Portable Network Graphics) Type: true color with transparency Class: DirectClass Geometry: 32x32 Depth: 8 Matte: True Colors: 13 126: ( 0, 0, 0) #000000 black 14: ( 0, 49, 0) #003100 #003100 2: ( 0, 0,127) #00007f #00007f 695: ( 18, 52, 86) #123456 #123456 <- ** this is the background color ** 43: ( 99, 50, 29) #63321d #63321d 16: (127,127,127) #7f7f7f gray50 1: ( 45,138, 86) #2d8a56 #2d8a56 20: (175, 47, 95) #af2f5f #af2f5f 9: (159, 81, 44) #9f512c #9f512c 30: (249,127,113) #f97f71 #f97f71 6: (205,133, 63) #cd853f peru 17: (191,191,191) #bfbfbf gray75 45: (255,255,255) #ffffff gray100 Filesize: 307b Interlace: None Background Color: gray100 <------------- ?????????? Border Color: #dfdfdf Matte Color: gray74 Delay: 100 Compression: Zip Signature: d04658dbef4acf6af0d88817099137e5 Tainted: False User Time: 0.0u Elapsed Time: 0:01 Because this is the original, the transparent color is the #123456 one. The linux client should find this out, my paint shop also knows this as right color, also my client use #123456. But the image magick refer gray100? Is the background color = transparent color? If yes, why the tool refer it false? If no, why are the transparent color is not list? Now some strange come. I find out, that many of the "full color" tiles like the mountains, which not have any visible trans- parent color, are broken for me. - they are 16 or 256 palette pics with false color key (like swamp.111.png i included) - they are 16m true color pics. My client, but also paint shop etc. can't find a transparent color, even the png refers no one. Because it is a set format for textures and game pictures, in true color, color 000 RGB = black is transparent as default. Because there are more and more use for alpha pictures, stencil mask, etc. this is very useful. Also, many 3D cards works not in any case ok, when they got fancy color keys in true color textures. For cf, in later years true color pics will come more and more. At the moment there is no color key we give them for there pics. That can cause some problems, if people start to render pictures. They have often more than 256 colors and can't saved as palette pictures. So we need a default color key for true color pictures. Shown with image magick, this comes out. At this point, its interesting to look what identify from IM gives me for a true color pic from the original cf lib: Image: mountain_2.311.png Format: PNG (Portable Network Graphics) Type: true color Class: DirectClass Geometry: 32x32 Depth: 8 Matte: False Colors: 9 174: ( 0, 0, 0) #000000 black 30: ( 0, 49, 0) #003100 #003100 67: ( 99, 50, 29) #63321d #63321d 5: ( 99, 68, 18) #634412 #634412 237: (127,127,127) #7f7f7f gray50 19: ( 45,138, 86) #2d8a56 #2d8a56 447: (191,191,191) #bfbfbf gray75 5: (254,191,202) #febfca #febfca 40: (255,255,255) #ffffff gray100 Filesize: 1025b Interlace: None Background Color: gray100 Border Color: #dfdfdf Matte Color: gray74 Delay: 100 Compression: Zip Signature: 94e2dee0ad7e65509c17e62257f5d153 Tainted: False But gray100 should NOT the color key... It can't be above too. For this mountain picture with 8 colors, it absolutly nonsense to safe them as true color!!! they have about 1.100 bytes as true color, saved as 16 bit palette they have about 500!! There are many pngs in the arches which have the false format. Some pics are simply broken. Many of the walls are use false color keys, no colors keys are are simply bug transformed, using background color = 0 and black as paint color. A sample for a false set color key is swamp.111.png. 16 colors, but transparent key is set as color number 0, which is a blue. This is a bug, happens as the picture was transformed from xpm, setting color number 0 as transparent, but there was none, so it set it false. I included some of my pngs i transformed. Please test them with your linux client, copy them into your cache. report when they are not loaded or strange thing happens. At a result i find, thats not a hard work to make the pngs looks better than xpm. Most bad views come from a couple of bad pngs, some false set transparent color keys and some strange pictures. I have drawn about 125 new and you will see that the whole screen looks 3 times better. With a little affort, we can make the change from xpm to png in a week, believe me. MichToen From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Wed Dec 13 20:34:51 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:31 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] improving the PR-code (patch written) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:40:30 +0100." <000001c0648c$8b2487c0$e319993e@kyle> Message-ID: <200012140234.SAA09164@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> I've taken a look at the patch, and I think AV's changes are for the most part benefical and worth putting in. Here's what he's done in his patch: 1) Made dam between 0 and 1 sometimes able to cause damage by rolling random numbers. (I.e., if you have 90% resistance to an attack which was 8 dam, you'd have a .1 * 8 = .8 chance of getting hit for 1pt.) 2) Simplified how potions work 3) Repaired some problems in the protection spells 4) Implemented his system of total_resistance = plusses - minuses where plusses and minusses add together within themselves armour-wise 5) Made nice messages come out when resistances change PeterM > I'm sorry that this and my previous mail are rather long and not > at every point easy to understand. I try to make myself as clear > and short as possible. If there are still unsolved mysteries, please > ask me on IRC. If you got time, simply download and test my patch: > . > > Another note: I'd appreciate it very much if the process to make my > patch accepted and "official" (-> CVS) would not take extra long. It's > just because my patch includes numerous files and I'm afraid it might > get outdated after a short while, meaning doubled work for me. =) > > In the last two days I asked every developer I met on IRC about his > opinion to my pr-patch. (Thanks for your patience guys!) > > They are all in favour, except for two minor issues: > (Skip this paragraph if your time is spare.) > > 1. protection values for potions: > Several people were afraid that 90% resistance for potions might > not be sufficient. Expecially since some Races (Wraith, Troll) must > rely on potions due to "caps" from vulnerabilities. > (-> Remember: Vuln. caps can only be surpassed by the use of potions) > > Here's my strategie to solve that problem: > First of all: 90% resistance is A LOT! Example: A lvl 1 character > (miserable stats) with nothing but a cloak granting fire +90, > cannot be hurt by the fiery breath of a red-dragon. (because > the damage is < 1). > I entered the dragon-hangar (dragonisland) with an average lvl 60 > char with all resistances at 90% (except magic - 0%). I had a > fairly easy time clearing the map out - with melee combat. I did > receive damage but slow enough to heal myself. > => So, I still think 90% is the perfect value for "immu"-potions. > If it would turn out that 90% is too low in some cases, I will > introduce a new hyper-duper-potion with 95%, only for fire and > cold. It will be quite rare and expensive though. > > 2. vuln. caps for races: > With my calc. scheme, worse than -30% fire (or maybe -50%) for the > races wraith/troll would probably be too hard at high levels. > But at low levels -30% might be rather harmless (1.3 x damage). > > Personally I believe it's okay, since the disadvantage of fire-vuln > will always stick to the character during his whole (virtual-)life. > At any point he will have a total amount of 30 less fire resistance > than other races with same equipment. > > Peter M. proposed, in terms of damage, we should make vulnerabilities > count doubled: So, if a player has a total of -30% res. to fire, > internally it will be treated like -60%, but if one got +30% this is > treated just normal. (This is what Peter was trying to say in his > previous post). > I have no objections to that and it's easy to do. Still, I would > prefer not to insert this in my patch right now, but to add it later. > > > Finally, to answer Mark's post: > > Just a note, the two unix clients have been modified to show resistance > > values (in numeric form) in the stat bar window. So it is very easy to > > see what your resistance values are. > > I'm aware of that. But I believe that the message "your resistance to fire > rises to 58%" is still far more interesting than "you feel more resistant > to fire". > > > If there is still someone having major objections to my patch, please take > the time to post them, or even better: Meet me on IRC. > > > AndreasV. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From andi.vogl at gmx.net Wed Dec 13 22:55:54 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:31 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] PR-stuff committed Message-ID: <000001c0658a$25369440$eca6e23e@kyle> I have tested my PR-patch again, and since it works well I commited it to cvs. To make my patch more complete and working as a whole, I had added a few things lately: o New adjusted resistances for player-races. In general less vulnerabilities than before, since they are more severe now. o Cleaned up and enhanced the protection spells: The value of granted protection will now slightly increase with skill- level, bonus for spellpath-attunement is also included. The maximum value a "perfect" player can reach is currently 60%, while the typical "startout" value is 20%. Note that no more than one spell of the same type can be in effect at once. But it is possible to "refresh" it before it wears out. o Damage "fine-tuning": When a player got hit by dam<1 it used to be counted zero. To make the calculations more accurate, for 0 Message-ID: <3A39C5D5.FBFAF57B@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: > Now tells me AV, that there was problems with my png in linux clients. Also > program > von image magick (good picture tools) tells me some absolut different. > > if i use the tool identify from it and use it on the behold_eye.png from the > cf lib (original) > i got this: > > Image: behold_eye.111.png > Format: PNG (Portable Network Graphics) > Type: true color with transparency > Class: DirectClass > Geometry: 32x32 > Depth: 8 > Matte: True > Colors: 13 > > 126: ( 0, 0, 0) #000000 black > 14: ( 0, 49, 0) #003100 #003100 > 2: ( 0, 0,127) #00007f #00007f > 695: ( 18, 52, 86) #123456 #123456 <- ** this is the > background color ** > 43: ( 99, 50, 29) #63321d #63321d > 16: (127,127,127) #7f7f7f gray50 > 1: ( 45,138, 86) #2d8a56 #2d8a56 > 20: (175, 47, 95) #af2f5f #af2f5f > 9: (159, 81, 44) #9f512c #9f512c > 30: (249,127,113) #f97f71 #f97f71 > 6: (205,133, 63) #cd853f peru > 17: (191,191,191) #bfbfbf gray75 > 45: (255,255,255) #ffffff gray100 > Filesize: 307b > Interlace: None > Background Color: gray100 <------------- ?????????? > Border Color: #dfdfdf > Matte Color: gray74 > Delay: 100 > Compression: Zip > Signature: d04658dbef4acf6af0d88817099137e5 > Tainted: False > User Time: 0.0u > Elapsed Time: 0:01 > > Because this is the original, the transparent color is the #123456 one. > The linux client should find this out, my paint shop also knows this as > right color, > also my client use #123456. background color and transperancy I think are different things, but not sure. I'm no expert on png, but I think background and transperancy does not necessarily need to be the same value. > Now some strange come. > I find out, that many of the "full color" tiles like the mountains, which > not have any visible trans- > parent color, are broken for me. > > - they are 16 or 256 palette pics with false color key (like swamp.111.png i > included) > - they are 16m true color pics. My client, but also paint shop etc. can't > find a transparent > color, even the png refers no one. Unclear exactly what you are saying. I will agree that some png's are probably not stored in optimized format, and can be cleaned up. But some things, like swamp and mountains, should not have a transparency, so that doesn't seem like a problem to me. > A sample for a false set color key is swamp.111.png. 16 colors, but > transparent key is set as color > number 0, which is a blue. This is a bug, happens as the picture was > transformed from xpm, setting > color number 0 as transparent, but there was none, so it set it false. Thats possible. I don't remember the exact way the images were converted. In any case, I seem to recall that fixing up the tranperency information was pretty easy to fix up. In terms of png cleanup - its not a lot of work, and just doing a few png's can make things look a lot better. It is just a matter of people doing the effort to do it, and I'm glad that you are doing at least some of the images. I'll look at the images and see how they work out. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Fri Dec 15 10:31:15 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] some additional mods concerning PR Message-ID: <000001c066b4$7424f760$ab97e23e@kyle> I've done some further mods concerning PR. They are rather "harmless" changes and most of them have been settled in discussions on the list some time ago. So I decided to commit them to cvs right away. Here's what changed: lib/artifacts: Numerous adjustments to the random-artifacts concerning PR. common/living.c: Player chars that cannot wear armour (like quetzal and fireborn) gain in addition to ac a small amount of armour (= resist_physical) per level. A maxed out char (level 110) will get 80% armour. This is not too much, but at least a little help. server/attack.c: Acid will only corrode equipment while the player has less than 50% acid resist. Note that acid corrosion makes players feel *very* unappy since there is no way to reverse the process (yet). Moreover, this change was absolutely neccessary since I do not intend to hand out any artifatcs with "resist_acid 100". server/spell_util.c: server/time.c: include/sproto.h: Patch for spell/missile reflecting: The "reflect spell/missile" flag does no longer provide living creatures with perfect immunity to projectiles. There is a missing chance of: 10% + level of projectile / 10 This does apply for all kinds of magic bullets/missiles, arrows, bolts and thrown objects. Smite spells and bolt spells are not affected, they will always bounce off. server/spell_effect.c: Done some more cleaning and adjusting for the protection spells. E.g. it is no longer possible to have both a god's blessing and a holy possession in effect. Also removed is the ability to add holy bless/poss. effects of more than one god to a char. changes to the archetypes: Fixed up the god's arches. Reducing vuln. fire/cold. I renamed the "potion of restoration" to "potion of life". This shall help people understand that the potion has absolutely nothing to do with the restoration-spell. Andreas V. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Fri Dec 15 20:47:33 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Poison fog implemented and in repository Message-ID: <200012160247.SAA28826@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> I did a poison fog spell. It tracks and leaves behind a trail of cloud the trail is opaque and cannot be seen through the poisoning ignores any invisible monster (i.e., one already in the cloud) and goes after new ones the poison fog effect is slower than ball-lightning or divine wind, but it uses the same tracking algorithm. PM From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 15 23:27:40 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] pngs References: Message-ID: <3A3AFD4C.36841B2F@scruz.net> I looked at the images provided. The ones that do not need transperancies work fine. The ones that do need transparencies do not work, ie, there is no transperancy. Loading up with gimp, there is no alpha channel. And hence no transperancy. It seems that if the image has a matte, it also has a transperancy. But to be honest, other than a little fiddling I have done with the PNG's, I don't know much about the format. I notice that some images currently in the repository, like the spiked shield, have the same problem with lack of transperancy. From mwedel at scruz.net Sat Dec 16 18:39:46 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Checked into CVS: Message-ID: <3A3C0B52.BBC9B410@scruz.net> I've juste checked this in. IF someone wants to actually write descriptions for the chracter races so that the first change below actually has an effect, that would be great. You just need to add and msg ... endmsg into the player race archetypes (dwarf, elf, fireborn, etc). The message should contain information about the racial abilities (see in dark, regen, skills, ...) Certainly abilities that you otherwise don't really know about it. MSW 2000/12/16: server/player.c: If the player race archetype has a message, print that out. This allows a descriptive message about what the different races will get. The message is removed from the player once they decide on the race. common/living.c: Add some parens around some PR resistant checks - eliminates warnings from gcc. server/disease.c: have cure_disease remove all diseases a player is infected with. The code suggested it was attempting to do so, and the messages it printed out certainly suggested that the character was disease free. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Sat Dec 16 20:12:49 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] artifacts rebalanced (checked in CVS) Message-ID: <000001c067ce$dd6547a0$9a9ee23e@kyle> Now that we have the new PR-system many artifacts needed some adjustments. Since I want the whole game to "work", I made up a scheme to balanced the artifacts as good as I can for now. I consider this a "first shot". It is not at all meant to be the perfect configuration. Everybody is welcomed to test the current PR-system and propose better values here and there. I took the chance to removed all those 100%-immunities except for special attacktypes (drain, depletion, paralyze, confusion, etc). In case someone is interested, here a list of the most important artifacts as they are now (only resistances are listed, all without armour except "defender" and "bracers of great prot."): ----- wintermail: cold +90, poison -30 wdsm: fire +95, cold +30 midnight robe: magic +30, acid +75, ghosthit -100, fire/cold/drain/slow/paralyze +20 dragonmail: fire +40 Pdragonmail: fire +50, elec +30 lava slasher: cold +75 tritend of sea mastery: confusion/paralyze +100, acid +50, drain -30 venomtooth: poison +80, ghosthit +30, fear +30 Chaos sword: magic/fire/cold/elec +30, acid +75, confusion -50 defender: (armour +50), drain +100 warrior's helmet: magic +30, fear +30 wizard hat: drain/slow/paralyze +30, fire/cold +15 oilskin cloak: acid +75 (the fake one: acid +30) cloak of the underworld: acid +75, ghosthit +80, drain/depletion +100, fire -5 cloak of darkness: acid +85, fire -30 cloak of magic resistance: magic +95 serpent cloak: poison +30 Dshield: drain +100, ghosthit +80, fire +30 dragon shield: fire +30 white dragon shield: fire +30, cold +30 eyeshield: magic +30 holy shield: drain +100, ghosthit +50 belzebub shield: depletion +100 ring of the elements: magic/fire/cold/elec/acid/poison +15 ring of elrond: drain/depletion +100, magic +30 ring of fire: fire +30 (rings of ice/storm just alike) ring of acid: acid +30 bracers of great prot.: (armour +50) Essence of Flame of dex.: fire +30 gauntlets of electric power: elec +30 girdle of the firegod: fire +30 ----- On the whole I have to say that I'm very pleased how well the new PR-scheme is working already. There are no maps that are "undoably hard" with the current scheme. Still, most seem much better balanced now. No more: "walk in - gulp three potions - switch the brains out". =) Andreas V. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sun Dec 17 00:46:21 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Race descriptions, like class descriptions Message-ID: <200012170646.WAA16831@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Hello, The following is my cut at doing descriptions of the races, similar to what I've already done for classes. Andi Vogl has said he wants to incorporate them into crossfire somehow so that they come up when race choice is done. Here it is: ------------------------------------------------------ Wraith A Wraith is a spirit which has made an evil bargain in order to persist after natural death, or been forced involuntarily into its new undead state. This transformation frees them of the limits of a natural lifespan, and grants them immunity to diseases, poison, and loss of lifeforce. Wraith's also need feel little fear of cold, and they can see well in the dark. A Wraith's corporeal form has terrible vunlerabilites: Fire and most godpower are dangerous to Wraiths. Their tenuous form makes them quick, and somewhat harder to hit, but also weaker and less hardy. Wraith's have a strong affinity to magic, especially cold spells, and are very strong spellcasters. However, they cannot use fire spells for fear of self-destruction. Northman Northmen are simply humans who have been shaped by their harsh environment. They are stronger, quicker, and hardier than most humans, but also stupid and impious. Most races also consider them a bit unattractive. They have some resistance to cold, but the few of them who take up magic find it difficult to master fire spells. Quetzalcoatl Quetzalcoatls are a strange mix of dragon, bird, human, and a dash of the divine. They bear the most resemblance to dragonkind, but are able to manipulate objects with their claws. They are amazingly strong, very quick, and amazingly hardy, but quite stupid and impious (despite the dash of divinity). However, they are strongly magical in nature and usually have a vast reservoir of mana with which to cast any spell they're not too stupid to learn. Often, they're only able to grasp one basic fire spell. Their strongly draconic nature immures them to fire and helps them with fire spells, but they are vulnerable to cold and paralyzation. They can grasp weapons, but their bizarre body shape prevents them from using armour, helmets, and other items of apparel usually intended for bipedal creatures with two arms and two legs and a head. Their inability to use armour comes back to haunt them when they compare themselves with other races: highly enchanted armour is usually more benefical than dragonhide! The wings come in handy: they can use them to 'levitate', and their hide gets thicker as they gain power, compensating them somewhat for not being able to use armour. Half-Orc Half-Orc's are usually the product of rape or slavery or some unpleasantness of some sort. They look it too: Half-Orcs are rather ugly. On average, they're stronger, a bit quicker, and hardier than humans, but also dumb and impious, and unmagical. They're resistant to poison and can see in the dark, and every half-orc seems to know how to steal. Human Humans are the generalists of the races. They are fit for any trade, and usually pick up a skill from their parents in addition to what they've learned as apprentices in their craft. Halflings Halflings are another sub-race of humankind, like the Northman. They are much smaller and shorter than humans, so they are weaker, but they are far quicker and hardier. They're quite unreligious, but many take up magic. Their small sizes lets them hide more effectively, and for some reason, chance seems to favor them with good luck. They are also surprisingly resistant to loss of lifeforce. Fireborn Legends say that fireborn are sparks struck off the anvil of creation which had life and spirit, and after time, mind. Those who research magic think that they are relatives of some kind to will 'o the wisps. An observer seeing one for the first time would see a strangely intelligent vortex of flame somehow carrying items without burning them. Their insubstantial nature makes them both very weak and very quick. Their minds are agile, and they are able to commune well with the gods. However, their area of excellence is magic. They spellcast more powerfully than any other race, and mana flows into them readily. They can even cast cold spells with devastating effectiveness. They all know a basic fire spell. They have the ability to levitate at will, and they can touch to burn. As they gain more power, they are increasingly difficult to hit with weapons. However, they cannot use weapons or armour, and thereby miss out on many benefits (including powerful magical enchantments) those items may bring. Fire does not harm them, nor poison. Cold, spiritual drain, and physical drain present great peril to them. Elf An Elf is a child of Faerie, a scion of Lythander. Being of Faerie, they heal more slowly than other races, but mana flows into them more quickly. They also need far less food than other races. Every elf is taught the use of a bow, but their long lives allow them to take up any trade. They are weaker and less hardy than humans, but quicker of body and mind, and generally make more powerful spellcasters. However, they have a notoriously offhanded attitude toward their religious devotions and make poor priests. As a race, Elves possess a preternatural beauty and eyes that see into the dark. Dwarf The Dwarves are the hardy scions of Mostrai. The traditional profession of the dwarf is smithery, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a dwarf who is not competent at it. Whether their great strength and hardiness leads them to become smiths and miners, or whether their profession leads to their strength and hardiness is unknown. Their thick musculature makes them slow of body, and seemingly, some of their muscle has crept into their brain. Perhaps their repetitive tasks dull their minds, perhaps they're just plain born dumb. Dwarves can see in the dark, but they're slightly impious and tend to be a bit poor at controlling magic. Despite this, there are indeed dwarven clerics and mages. They're just not quite as good as human clerics or mages. Troll A Troll is a nasty creature, usually: a scion of Gnarg. They have amazing strength and amazing hardiness, but they're a bit clumsy, very stupid, impious, and bad at handling and obtaining magic. They heal with amazing rapidity and can see in the dark. Because of the above attributes, they're great in any fight. Well, they're great until someone waves torches at them: fire presents great peril to trolls. Most trolls are destroyed on sight by civilized people: but a few have proved deserving of tolerance and are permitted to enter cities. Gnome Gnomes and dwarves look so much alike that some speculate that they are the same race, but with very different cultures. No one has been able to talk a Dwarf and a Gnome into attempting interbreeding, however, which would settle the issue. Dwarves and gnomes have a disgust for one another and both find the thought of intimacy with the other repulsive. Despite that, they coexist peacefully enough: perhaps because their interests and needs never conflict. Gnomes do not have nearly the strength or hardiness of dwarves, and they are even more clumsy. They are quite spiritual, and make very good priests, and many are very strong magicians. They can see in the dark, and their familiarity with the gods seems to bring a general blessing of good luck on all Gnomekind. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Sun Dec 17 05:37:41 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] troubles with crossedit & libXaw Message-ID: <000001c0681d$c5e91120$9a9ee23e@kyle> Pertti Karppinen and me, we both have updated our linux distributions lately, and we both have troubles with Crossedit (CE) now. Pertti K. is using a daily updated debian, me using SuSE 7.0. The troubles we have is that CE is crashing in various functions of the Xaw-library. Looks like the latest xaw does no longer fit for CE. This is *very* bad, since it might affect most, maybe all up-to-date linux systems. If there is no way to fix these troubles except downgrading the Xaw lib, I believe it really is time to re-write CE ! We need a better user-interface anyways, as well as hardcoded png-support. I know that this is very easy to say while much work to do. But without a well-working editor, no way to get new maps... Andreas V. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Sun Dec 17 12:48:02 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] cpl.op-faces Message-ID: Hi One glitch is still in this damn faces: As you start, the face of the player char in cpl.op-faces will be set to face[dir]. But it should be the face which you see if you head south, like "full from front". MichToen From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 17 17:04:41 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Race info/crossedit/compiling Message-ID: Hello peoples. I am very excited to read peterm's race information. Sounds very clear and reasonable to me and I am very happy to see it go into the CVS as it adds more context to the game. I really like the Q's and Fireborns information as it lets players know early that these are more difficult to play. I would like to see some information about the Gnomes natural resistance to most common magics, ie paralyze, magic, confuse etc. I suggest again that we add +10 to each of the really common resistances and take off say one from one of the Max stats.. I suggest Str. I personally find the Gnome the best race to play as it gives a really good spread of Maxes that are all at reasonable levels. I think a gnomish summoner has the best stat maxs =). I still wouldn't mind seeing Q's be able to wear girdles though =), but I suppose with AV's armour improving by level this is no longer THAT important. Also, I happen to have a few ideas concerning further context. Perhaps it would be good if we could give players a better idea of what a Q is really supposed to look like =). If we could get some free graphics off some webpage and splash them across the screen as a player chooses race etc then perhaps the quality of the graphics would be alot less of an issue. If a person knows what they are supposed to be looking at, they might have less concerns about what it really does look. Obviously just getting better graphics is another way of doing it, but with this we can have nice big pictures with plenty of detail or something =). Well just an idea. About Crossedit. Several people have expressed their concern that there is no windows version of crossedit. It seems we really HAVE to improve crossedit ASAP because there are alot of map makers out there who simply cannot get past the install of linux or crossfire. I suppose if we are going to make a rewrite of it, that would be the best time to mac a port the windows. Personally I have no interest in that cause I run linux, but I can see the validity of such requests. More maps, better gameplay? Well I always thought it was quality before quantity, but more good maps wouldn't hurt anyone =)). I just remembner something REALLY important. Rick Tanner if you read this could you please put a notice on the download page of crossfire. ALL linux users must have GTK-dev installed as well as xpmlib!!!. Several people also have told me they could not install crossfire and I would bet the bottom dollar it is because they didn't have one, or either of these. For debian users it is just a simple matter of running apt-get install gtk-dev etc. but I don't know how you would do it for redhat etc. I think this is a very important issue as it got me =) and it has got me in the past =). A simple notice about the requirements would really help with alot of the compiling etc. (especially running the configure script!). Thanks. dnh From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 17 17:34:42 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Current status. Message-ID: Thought it might be a good idea to just let everyone know where we are now at. PR Implemented completely for both client and server. (client now has a list of the players current resistances) We are currently running as fast as we can through the balancing issues. AV and peterm have done a whole lot of item balancing and peterm as specifically done some monster balancing. Currently it is alittle (IMHO) to easy to get to 80% resistance which currently allows a player to one on one with a dragon with little loss of hp. Infact to let you know what I mean, I was talking on irc while my player stood two sqaures away from a dragon, it took the dragon about 1 minute to get a level 30 player on 79% resistance down to 30 health (from 117). There is now no simple immunity to the three major attack_types, fire, cold and elec and not even potions hand out 100%. At 95% resistance however I find even greater demons are survivable. Gods All spells implemented and waiting. All changes listed (see http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~dnh/crossfire_pantheon.html). We are now simply awaiting Jan's patch before all this can be added to CVS. We are still open to suggestion for anything ideas you have regarding god intervention. I am especially interested to get feedback on items handed out. =). Also, I believe the changes have made Ruggilli and Gaea quite powerful again and I think we need a ruggilli temple in or around scorn or some other major city (wolfsburg, Santo, dragon island, brest). devourers also will be getting a major face lift with all new nasty attacks. If someone is interested in adding some code to change draining to include stealing of hp I would be most greatful. Also if a god attunes you to wounding, it will steal gr too. These are very important changes and need to be implemented soon. I will do it if no one else will, but I currently have very little time, plus any changes I make are by definition slow =). Maps AV has been upgrading maps so they have floor tiles and has made some simple changes to make alot of maps more pleasing to the eye =). AV would like assistance on this I am sure, some major maps that need work are, the titans castle above navar/navar and some old and unvisited maps. If you find a map that needs "flooring" or just has got out of date/out of touch with the current level of balance, please tell either AV or I and something will be done as soon as possible =). Monster balancing for maps has also been taking place. Very recently crossedit has come into the spot light. It really needs fixing up, the call goes out to anyone who is interested etc. as this is quite important, if we can make it easy to make maps, more maps will be created =). I feel the same way about monsters, I nice "monster creator" would be cool which perhaps could also include "weapon smithery" and "player maker" =). Clients Currently in production are the dxclient, which is being produced by MichToen, and a new linux client which is still very much in alpha stage and may not be seen for some time yet. More than likely after the dxclient. Alot of game issues are coming up here, and if you have an issue with simple interface stuff, im sure MichToen would be very interested to here your idea. Servers Simply needs to be further optimized. If anyone has any skill in networking code etc etc =). Any graphics would be MOST welcomed even if it is just a sketch, the more monsters... the merrier =). Some issues regarding expanding of the server to a larger market of also cropped up.. see Mark's posts. Well this is about all I can think of, perhaps this information should be posted on the main page of crossfire.real-time.com? Alot of new players are appearing, especially on MiDS server, for which we are very greatful. Crossfire is a rapidly expanding game and we are always wanting more developers for windows or linux (or even Mac ;)). Well done everyone, keep up the good work. dnh From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 17 18:24:43 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Q's Message-ID: Wow third post =) Anyway, AV and I were talking about the Q and how it slowly "evolves" better armour and the idea came that perhaps we could evolve the whole Q. For instace, a player starts off as an "immature" Q which has burning hands and very low stat maximums. After the Q has fought some arbitary level of "things" (this could be based on exp or # of monsters or even value of stat (although this would be easy to short circuit for a mature player) the entire Q matures to say a Q. Its stats are now higher, the graphic is different (I would be very happy to do the graphics for this as the Q is my favorite character) and perhaps the player gets something special like a better spell than burning hands or a big armour bonus, or some special new skill.. the possibilities are endless. Anyway the player keeps going and later grows to a mature Q, perhaps some sort of negative could be used here.. ie str gets slightly less but magic and wisdom increase dramatically (we are talking only about stat maxes here... ). It is only an idea and I know currently we are very busy and so implementation of this is somewhat long term. I thought perhaps though it might be good just to see what people think. I think it is a really clever idea that can be expanded apon for the wraith and Fireborn, perhaps even trolls.. and in the really long term.. everything. Characters can age and thus gain or lose certain aspects. What do you think? dnh ps. note, this is a common point in quite a few RPG games, whether we want to follow these lines I don't know, I for one don't like characters that die of old age, or get pathetically weak. I like to just play for ever.. bugger realism. But for the Q in particullar this seems like a cool idea. From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 17 18:35:30 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] troubles with crossedit & libXaw References: <000001c0681d$c5e91120$9a9ee23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A3D5BD2.DD0845D@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > The troubles we have is that CE is crashing in various functions > of the Xaw-library. Looks like the latest xaw does no longer > fit for CE. This is *very* bad, since it might affect most, maybe > all up-to-date linux systems. This would seem odd, as most libraries try to be backwards compatible, but I'll take your word for it. Crossedit is quite old, and is very possible that some features it uses it uses are now long supported in the library. Also, crossedit has had some reliability problems for a long time - perhaps the newer Xaw library just exploints it more (if you had several maps open and update on object on one, it would sometimes update the 'need to be saved flag' on a different map, and crashes were more likely with multiple maps open > > If there is no way to fix these troubles except downgrading the > Xaw lib, I believe it really is time to re-write CE ! > We need a better user-interface anyways, as well as hardcoded > png-support. > I know that this is very easy to say while much work to do. > But without a well-working editor, no way to get new maps... Just a note - the latest CVS crossedit does have png support. the obvious question is whether someone wants to spend the time to write a new crossedit. To me, it mostly needs to be fairly abstract (be able to insert/remove objects) - as a first pass, to change variables you could use the current set variable function like the current editor does and not provide pre-defined widgets for certain things, and add those widgets as we go along. If it is decided to write a new crossedit, there are the following considerations: 1) Should it be one client for all platforms, or should it have a common set of base code with perhaps native gui's for each one? If the former, that means we need a portable gui interface (java or a library that is cross platform and hopefully not too obscure on the unix side of things). 2) For simplicity, might as well only make it support png images. 3) List of features the client really needs. The only thing I would add would be the ability to follow connected objects. Ie, I select a handle in the map, and say follow, and it finds the next connected object with the same connected value and makes the seleected, I say follow again, and it goes to the next one, and so on. The hardest thing I usually have with maps is trying to figure out how the handles/buttons/whatever interace with each other. Actually, one other thing would be to search objects base on something (ie, slaying of whatever) so you would find out where that key to the door is or whatever. > > Andreas V. > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 17 20:48:37 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: FW: [CF-Devel] Race info/crossedit/compiling Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Michael Toennies [mailto:michael.toennies@nord-com.net] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 11:29 AM To: David Hurst Subject: RE: [CF-Devel] Race info/crossedit/compiling > I just remembner something REALLY important. Rick Tanner if you read this > could you please put a notice on the download page of crossfire. ALL linux > users must have GTK-dev installed as well as xpmlib!!!. Several > people also > have told me they could not install crossfire and I would bet the bottom > dollar it is because they didn't have one, or either of these. For debian > users it is just a simple matter of running apt-get install > gtk-dev etc. but > I don't know how you would do it for redhat etc. I think this is a very > important issue as it got me =) and it has got me in the past =). A simple > notice about the requirements would really help with alot of the compiling > etc. (especially running the configure script!). Thanks. > Hm, what about the idea to make the first links of the clients to binaries? alike this: welcome to crossfire blabla online rpg... blabla ... to play you need a client. We have binaries for these systems: bin1 bin2 bin3 Or you can get the sources and compile for yourself: source1 source2 Also you can get the source of the server. source These will avoid some problems for the dummies. MichToen From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Sun Dec 17 20:48:37 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Race info/crossedit/compiling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Michael Toennies [mailto:michael.toennies@nord-com.net] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 11:29 AM To: David Hurst Subject: RE: [CF-Devel] Race info/crossedit/compiling > I just remembner something REALLY important. Rick Tanner if you read this > could you please put a notice on the download page of crossfire. ALL linux > users must have GTK-dev installed as well as xpmlib!!!. Several > people also > have told me they could not install crossfire and I would bet the bottom > dollar it is because they didn't have one, or either of these. For debian > users it is just a simple matter of running apt-get install > gtk-dev etc. but > I don't know how you would do it for redhat etc. I think this is a very > important issue as it got me =) and it has got me in the past =). A simple > notice about the requirements would really help with alot of the compiling > etc. (especially running the configure script!). Thanks. > --> Hm, what about the idea to make the first links of the clients to binaries? alike this: welcome to crossfire blabla online rpg... blabla ... to play you need a client. We have binaries for these systems: bin1 bin2 bin3 Or you can get the sources and compile for yourself: source1 source2 Also you can get the source of the server. source <-- Yup that sounds good, but this doesn't address the issue of requirements. I think we also need to add a line in saying the major requirements for a) the client, b) the server and c) crossedit >These will avoid some problems for the dummies. I don't think dummies is a fair thing to say. Just less experienced users. I certainly had troubles I hope i'm not too much of a dummy =). dnh From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Mon Dec 18 13:24:09 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS update: crossfire/server In-Reply-To: <200012152023.MAA26168@boltzmann.eecs.berkeley.edu>; from crossfire-cvs-admin@lists.sourceforge.net on Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:23:52PM -0800 References: <200012152023.MAA26168@boltzmann.eecs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20001218202409.A18925@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:23:52PM -0800, crossfire-cvs-admin@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: > Fixed some code which caused an unnecessary server exit. Do you mean that the server crashed? I thought that the runes were merely ignored. If it does crash the server, than it should be fixed or removed, because its sole purpose is to prevent server crashes. > move_apply CAN recurse many times when the code is operating properly. > For example, in a room full of rune_summon_water. You're right, I missed that possibility when I added the recursion depth limit. -- Jan From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Dec 18 13:36:26 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:32 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS update: crossfire/server In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:24:09 +0100." <20001218202409.A18925@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> Message-ID: <200012181936.LAA04021@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:23:52PM -0800, crossfire-cvs-admin@lists.sourcefor >ge.net wrote: > > Fixed some code which caused an unnecessary server exit. > > Do you mean that the server crashed? I thought that the runes were > merely ignored. If it does crash the server, than it should be fixed > or removed, because its sole purpose is to prevent server crashes. No, it did not crash. It exited. If the server logs too many "errors", it will exit. Every time there were "too many" recursions, an error would be logged. I changed the threshold from 5 to 500 for leaving the recursion, and changed the logging from an error to a debug message. PM > > move_apply CAN recurse many times when the code is operating properly. > > For example, in a room full of rune_summon_water. > > You're right, I missed that possibility when I added the recursion > depth limit. > > -- > Jan > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From leaf at real-time.com Mon Dec 18 14:39:32 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] (Fwd) Crossfire In-Reply-To: <3A31E8CD.458B2076@scruz.net> Message-ID: > Andreas Vogl wrote: > > What are we waiting for? I?d say Yes, yes and yes! > > The site is a nice > > one too. > > If I understand it correctly, they provide a link to our > > main site (crossfire.real-time.com) and we can post updates > > to their "latest news" column. Quite cool. > > > > I?d suggest we set up a table somewhere, listing all sites > > that provide a link to the CF main site. We can increase those > > slowly, depending on the number of players we aim to get. Currently, there is a short list on the Crossfire site right now, I try to update this section around every other month, but it's been neglected for about 5 months now.. http://crossfire.real-time.com/Website_Index/Introduction/introduction.html#introlinks > Andreas Vogl also wrote: > > I completely agree with Michael T. and Peter M.: Current > > web-presence of CF is about zero. That?s why we got a less than > > moderate amount of players. Getting more players would be *very* > > good for us (More playing fun, more maps, more developers, > > more testers, etc). > > However, the real big "advertising" should start after 1.0 release > > (hopefully soon). Mark Wedel replied: > I don't have a problem with crossfire getting added to new sites. Who wants to > be the crossfire evangilist? > > Crossfire actually manages to have its own category on yahoo: > http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Games/Computer_Games/Titles/Role_Playing/Crossfire/ > > At least the real time page is there. I think the other pages are out of date. If no one else volunteers, I can do this. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Mon Dec 18 15:00:20 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] (Fwd) Crossfire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Hm, lets wait for the CF 1.0 version and then we put it on mpogd http://www.mpogd.com/ or other similiar site. This will boost the game like hell. I know the sites there and the games, and i know how CF is rated there. If you then calculate the possible amount of new players - i tell you it will alot! But for this, we really should have - CF Server 1.0 - Crossfire for linux 1.0(= client) - Crossfire for windows 1.0 (= my client) - Crossfire Editor 1.0 (for what systems???) I think we should have - same name for same tool (that means the clients) - same version number for whole packet. Well, and a cross platform editor. Still the old question: In java or other language? And who will do it? MichToen > > Andreas Vogl wrote: > > > What are we waiting for? I?d say Yes, yes and yes! > > > The site is a nice > > > one too. > > > If I understand it correctly, they provide a link to our > > > main site (crossfire.real-time.com) and we can post updates > > > to their "latest news" column. Quite cool. > > > > > > I?d suggest we set up a table somewhere, listing all sites > > > that provide a link to the CF main site. We can increase those > > > slowly, depending on the number of players we aim to get. > > Currently, there is a short list on the Crossfire site right now, I try to > update this section around every other month, but it's been neglected for > about 5 months now.. > > http://crossfire.real-time.com/Website_Index/Introduction/introduc tion.html#introlinks > Andreas Vogl also wrote: > > I completely agree with Michael T. and Peter M.: Current > > web-presence of CF is about zero. That?s why we got a less than > > moderate amount of players. Getting more players would be *very* > > good for us (More playing fun, more maps, more developers, > > more testers, etc). > > However, the real big "advertising" should start after 1.0 release > > (hopefully soon). Mark Wedel replied: > I don't have a problem with crossfire getting added to new sites. Who wants to > be the crossfire evangilist? > > Crossfire actually manages to have its own category on yahoo: > http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Games/Computer_Games/Titles/Role_Playing/Cro ssfire/ > > At least the real time page is there. I think the other pages are out of date. If no one else volunteers, I can do this. _______________________________________________ crossfire-devel mailing list crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Mon Dec 18 15:30:05 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] magic rings Message-ID: Hi I try to buy rings in the big ring shop. I fetch 2 rings of magic+1 Both are similiar, except the prize. the on should cos about 360 platinum the other about 2100! Thats look strange. MichToen From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Mon Dec 18 16:00:54 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS update: crossfire/server In-Reply-To: <200012181936.LAA04021@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:36:26AM -0800 References: <20001218202409.A18925@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> <200012181936.LAA04021@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001218230054.D18925@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:36:26AM -0800, Peter Mardahl wrote: > No, it did not crash. It exited. If the server logs too many > "errors", it will exit. Every time there were "too many" recursions, > an error would be logged. > > I changed the threshold from 5 to 500 for leaving the recursion, > and changed the logging from an error to a debug message. Ok, I think that's the best solution. -- Jan From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Mon Dec 18 16:03:14 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] magic rings In-Reply-To: ; from michael.toennies@nord-com.net on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:30:05PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20001218230314.E18925@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:30:05PM +0100, Michael Toennies wrote: > I fetch 2 rings of magic+1 > > Both are similiar, except the prize. > > the on should cos about 360 platinum > the other about 2100! The best guess I have is that the other was created as (magic+1)(magic+1)(magic-1) or similar. -- Jan From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Dec 18 19:05:42 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Holy books for religions Message-ID: <200012190105.RAA12197@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> To everyone (and dnh in particular, as the principle architect of the new gods stuff) Andi Vogl has written books which get stuck in new players inventories giving some useful instructions. Someone on IRC similarly noted that a holy book sitting on the altars in scorn describing each God would be useful to new players too. Anyone want to volunteer to do that? "dnh" would be a logical person for it, since he's the principle architect of the changes we plan to put in place. However, if he isn't available for it, we should find someone to do it, it is such a good idea. PeterM From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Mon Dec 18 20:24:03 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. Message-ID: Thanks Pete, I would be happy to. Again this fits right in with the context stuff and I suppose we may be able to tie in that "story" about the gods to? It was a discussion LONG ago about creating a story to tie the gods together.. well just a thought. Also instead of all books, we could give the story to one of the priesty type people who are usually just inside the temple. If we make a trigger that you have to walk over that makes the priest ask the player to come and talk about the god etc etc. We could instead make the player have to find out about the god, more than just read it. Things like: priest: "devourers are dark beings it's true, but there is power behind their malice" player: "power?" priest: "yes, it is said the mere touch of the devourers will drain a person of their life and even give it to the wielder. Of course this comes with a setback, no devourer will allow it's followers anything to do with the gods of the living" player: "living?" priest: "Yes, gods like Gaea love to muck around with the living and bring peace and happiness. Devourers can't stand this and will stop at nothing to bring destruction. They go so far as to prevent followers from using restorative magics and instead bless them with stronger skills in wounding and death" Or something to this affect.. i'm sure you get where I am headed. Well I think this would be a better way to deliever the information. The point is I am happy to do it. dnh From andi.vogl at gmx.net Mon Dec 18 21:40:01 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c0696d$61383840$9d9ee23e@kyle> dnh wrote: > Thanks Pete, I would be happy to. > > Again this fits right in with the context stuff and I suppose we may > be able to tie in that "story" about the gods to? It was a discussion > LONG ago about creating a story to tie the gods together.. well just > a thought. I would certainly love to have an overall "creaton story" and a basic set of legends for CF. That might involve into several quests and it creates a nice, mystique atmosphere. > Also instead of all books, we could give the story to one of the priesty > type people who are usually just inside the temple. If we make a trigger > that you have to walk over that makes the priest ask the player to come > and talk about the god etc etc. We could instead make the player have to > find out about the god, more than just read it. [...] Yeah, stuff the priest with interactive info about the god. That's much nicer than just a book. For the complete newbies (maybe not able to communicate with npcs properly) I would put a magic mouth at the temple-entrance. Sth like: "This is the temple of Sorig, the diety of storm and lightning, god of the skies." Andreas V. From leaf at real-time.com Mon Dec 18 21:55:34 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Race info/crossedit/compiling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, David Hurst wrote: [SNIP] > I just remembner something REALLY important. Rick Tanner if you read this > could you please put a notice on the download page of crossfire. ALL linux > users must have GTK-dev installed as well as xpmlib!!!. Several people also > have told me they could not install crossfire and I would bet the bottom > dollar it is because they didn't have one, or either of these. For debian > users it is just a simple matter of running apt-get install gtk-dev etc. but > I don't know how you would do it for redhat etc. I think this is a very > important issue as it got me =) and it has got me in the past =). A simple > notice about the requirements would really help with alot of the compiling > etc. (especially running the configure script!). Thanks. I am adding info to the site now and it should be viewable sometime tomorrow afternoon when I re-publish the site using DreamWeaver. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Dec 18 22:28:40 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 04:40:01 +0100." <000001c0696d$61383840$9d9ee23e@kyle> Message-ID: <200012190428.UAA09907@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > > Also instead of all books, we could give the story to one of the priesty > > type people who are usually just inside the temple. If we make a trigger > > that you have to walk over that makes the priest ask the player to come > > and talk about the god etc etc. We could instead make the player have to > > find out about the god, more than just read it. [...] > > Yeah, stuff the priest with interactive info about the god. That's much > nicer > than just a book. For the complete newbies (maybe not able to communicate > with npcs properly) I would put a magic mouth at the temple-entrance. Sth > like: "This is the temple of Sorig, the diety of storm and lightning, > god of the skies." I'd rather read a book. Having to coax info out of a priest by repeating successive keywords seems like pure hoop-jumping to me. PeterM From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 18 22:29:48 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] (Fwd) Crossfire References: Message-ID: <3A3EE43C.88F633C7@scruz.net> Michael Toennies wrote: > But for this, we really should have > - CF Server 1.0 > - Crossfire for linux 1.0(= client) > - Crossfire for windows 1.0 (= my client) > - Crossfire Editor 1.0 (for what systems???) > > I think we should have > - same name for same tool (that means the clients) > - same version number for whole packet. > > Well, and a cross platform editor. > Still the old question: In java or other language? > And who will do it? > > MichToen Note that current ideas call for making a 1.0 release in the next few months. I would say except for some balancing, server is pretty much ready. Except for metaserver contact information, I would say the unix clients are ready. You can probably comment on the readiness for windows client. Editor is the one that would look most doubtful to me. I'm going to start another thread on that simply so it stays dedicated. I don't have a problem with everything be called version 1.0 when we first make a release. But it should be clear that you don't necessary need a 1.01 client to say play on a 1.01 server (lets presume that so patches get put out). I'm not positive by what you mean with same name for same tool. Certainly, the clients could all start with something like 'crossfire-client-1.0-unix.tar.gz' and 'crossfire-client-1.0-windows', and 'crossfire-client-1.0.i386.rpm' if we decide to include various binaries for various OS's. From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 18 22:36:50 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. References: <200012190428.UAA09907@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3A3EE5E2.F00DA658@scruz.net> Peter Mardahl wrote: > I'd rather read a book. Having to coax info out of a priest by > repeating successive keywords seems like pure hoop-jumping to me. I was thinking something similar. While talking should be used more in the game, the fact remains that the communication with NPC's basically suck, because you need to figure out what keyword they need to continue conversation. I think this is one of those things for the 2.0 release. However, if a book is done, you should make sure it is level 0 so anyone can read it. Otherwise, classes that don't start with literacy are basically screwed. In reality, this info is largely relevant for new comers. Experienced players will likely know about the different gods and go in and choose whatever one they want without having to converse or read books. So whatever we do, it should be very easy for first time players to get the information, and unfortunately, conversing with NPC's is not very easy. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Dec 18 22:55:43 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Status of gods project? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:34:42 +1100." Message-ID: <200012190455.UAA13859@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Despite your update on the topic, DB, I'm still not too clear on the status of the Gods patch. Subproject Who Status 1) Spells PeterM 95% done, requires final tuning, conflict spell, blinding cone 2) coding to hand out items and spells ?? ?? in a god-specific manner 3) set up to hand out ?? ?? items and spells (i.e., arches) 4) Descriptions in dnh (just accepted) temples So we could be anywhere from 1/2 done to ready to initiate and start polishing the new system. Where are we? PeterM > Gods > All spells implemented and waiting. All changes listed (see > http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~dnh/crossfire_pantheon.html). > We are now simply awaiting Jan's patch before all this can be added to CVS. > We are still open to suggestion for anything ideas you have regarding god > intervention. I am especially interested to get feedback on items handed > out. =). Also, I believe the changes have made Ruggilli and Gaea quite > powerful again and I think we need a ruggilli temple in or around scorn or > some other major city (wolfsburg, Santo, dragon island, brest). devourers > also will be getting a major face lift with all new nasty attacks. If > someone is interested in adding some code to change draining to include > stealing of hp I would be most greatful. Also if a god attunes you to > wounding, it will steal gr too. These are very important changes and need to > be implemented soon. I will do it if no one else will, but I currently have > very little time, plus any changes I make are by definition slow =). > > Maps > AV has been upgrading maps so they have floor tiles and has made some simple > changes to make alot of maps more pleasing to the eye =). AV would like > assistance on this I am sure, some major maps that need work are, the titans > castle above navar/navar and some old and unvisited maps. If you find a map > that needs "flooring" or just has got out of date/out of touch with the > current level of balance, please tell either AV or I and something will be > done as soon as possible =). Monster balancing for maps has also been taking > place. > Very recently crossedit has come into the spot light. It really needs fixing > up, the call goes out to anyone who is interested etc. as this is quite > important, if we can make it easy to make maps, more maps will be created > =). I feel the same way about monsters, I nice "monster creator" would be > cool which perhaps could also include "weapon smithery" and "player maker" > =). > > Clients > Currently in production are the dxclient, which is being produced by > MichToen, and a new linux client which is still very much in alpha stage and > may not be seen for some time yet. More than likely after the dxclient. Alot > of game issues are coming up here, and if you have an issue with simple > interface stuff, im sure MichToen would be very interested to here your > idea. > > Servers > Simply needs to be further optimized. If anyone has any skill in networking > code etc etc =). Any graphics would be MOST welcomed even if it is just a > sketch, the more monsters... the merrier =). Some issues regarding expanding > of the server to a larger market of also cropped up.. see Mark's posts. > > > Well this is about all I can think of, perhaps this information should be > posted on the main page of crossfire.real-time.com? Alot of new players are > appearing, especially on MiDS server, for which we are very greatful. > Crossfire is a rapidly expanding game and we are always wanting more > developers for windows or linux (or even Mac ;)). Well done everyone, keep > up the good work. > > dnh > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 18 22:53:40 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] crossfire map editor. Message-ID: <3A3EE9D4.95B3E570@scruz.net> Just to recap: current crossedit apparantly has severe problems with newest versions of Xaw making it unusable. So discussion has started on making a new crossedit. There are various considerations, like should it be a common editor between all systems (windows, mac, etc). That reduces/eliminates porting effort, but at the same time results in no common code with the current server (so for example map loading/saving would need to be written in java, as well as many other functions). Also, there may be performance issues with using java. another method would be to keep it in C, but instead use a toolkit that has a common API set for both unix and windows. Once again, saves porting effort, but this needs to be a pretty mainstream library. If people running unix have to jump through a dozen hoops to get the library and have it set up (Because of various dependancies or other issues), this may not be ideal. I'm presuming that windows would be distributed in binary form, so they won't need to jump through the hoops. Third idea would be to make a common backend (non gui portion), which a unique gui for the front end. But experience from the client shows that this doesn't seem that realistic, as unless there is a clear idea of what the backend needs to do for all platforms, we find that it doesn't integrate with the frontend. It seems that the editor will be the next high priority item, and to a great extent, I agree. Doing the editor will not affect the march to 1.0 at all, as it is a separate project, and I think it is something that needs to be available roughly when 1.0 is out (or shortly thereafter), as if we do get a bunch of new players, I can certainly believe that a fair number may want to design maps, and saying 'well, our editor is really buggy and only works on unix' isn't going to help things much. And I think most will agree that crossfire could use many more high quality maps. Whichever option for development is chosen, I do have the following thoughts: 1) Editor will be a separate package and not part of the server. 2) user can grab updated archetypes and image files for his editor to create maps. In face, breaking the files generated from the 'arch' distribution off from the server may not be a bad idea in any case, as I get the feeling that if 1.0 ends up being very stable, the archs will probably end up changing more than the source will. 3) user does not need map distribution to make new maps. They can easily enough make a standalone set of maps and send it to whoever who can then link it into the the main distribution. From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Mon Dec 18 23:34:41 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] gods status Message-ID: >Despite your update on the topic, DB, I'm still not too clear >on the status of the Gods patch. > >Subproject Who Status >1) Spells PeterM 95% done, requires final tuning, > conflict spell, blinding cone I am pleased with the current levels of balance. The only gods I see are still lagging are... devourers for LATER levels. Ruggilli (although we can make immolation get fairly powerful), I feel we need something greater still.. I suppose Holy Rage is one, but I think perhaps giving out Holy Fiend? or Holy Golem (;)) guess which graphic ;)) http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~dnh/special/fireborn/fireborn.ani.gif). I dun know, pete you are the best at such things =). >2) coding to hand out > items and spells ?? ?? > in a god-specific > manner Well I just sent off a message to Jan. This is currently in Jans ball park, I can't do anything until he has released the new interevention stuff. All I have done is prepare what items are to be handed out. I could probably actually make the arch files now, but RIGHT now I have little time, in two weeks I wont have a job and I will be home alone with a brand new fast computer with plenty of time... hopefully ;) >3) set up to hand out ?? ?? > items and spells > (i.e., arches) Once again Jan's area. I really need to talk to Jan on irc to settle a few questions I have... >4) Descriptions in dnh (just accepted) > temples Well I can start this.. I really feel the magic mouth at the door, plus talking to the priest is the best way. It would both teach newbies to communicate with NPCs plus it gives alot more interaction than a book =). I welcome further discussion here. >So we could be anywhere from 1/2 done to ready to initiate and >start polishing the new system. Ohh I'd say we are over 1/2 way. I know what I need to be added, Jan I believe has written the patch and you have almost completely done the spells. Expect plenty of questions regarding the Info gods stuff in irc ;). I would invite people to help create a story as it is a groupish type thing more than a one person thing. If I were to create it all, no one would be happy except me. =). I also thought of giving out colours or shades to gods, ie devourers of black, Gaea of white, Gnarg of grey. >Where are we? I would suggest 65% maybe more. I think perhaps we should fiddle the avatars abit. The two spells you haven't done I am not particualarly worried about yet, I am still not 100% on a blinding cone and was really more waiting to see what it was like before we decide on something like that. Perhaps sunspear could goto valriel early on? and the Solar Flare or something for later on? although this is starting to sound like valriel is god of the light? could we do that? Valriel, healer protector, god of the light, bringer of vision? Obviously there are still "issues" regarding conflict. I am happy to see it go in, but it will be very tricky to handle. With that in mind though, it will defn bring Lythander up to pace. Perhaps a spell for >40 or something? This really is the issue, the spells really start to dry up after 20, for devourers the disease ebola should make life alittle blacker, but certainly on average alot of gods run out (Mostrai's big spell is wall of thorns, pretty pathetic now.) Anyway, this is for irc. dnh From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Mon Dec 18 23:42:03 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Webboard. Message-ID: I have recently been in discussion with Mark about having both a News section on the main page of crossfire.real-time.com and a webboard for players to keep in touch with development issues without having to sign onto the mailing list. For the News webpage, Rick, I would be really interested to know if you could manage to update the webpage sort of once a morning with one of two news worthy items. This is to add more of a dynamic feel to the pages and make players/readers want to visit more regularly. I have my ear firmly held on the irc channel and you could perhaps monitor this list. Each day I would send you some item of interest which you could add to the news? Just a thought but I am really interested in broading our presence and a good way to do this is to get more readers to your webpage. Thoughts? For the webboard, I will contact MiDS (Joris) and see if it is possible to start a general webboard. Hopefully a really simple interface where posters don't even need to register names (unless it gets massive ;). I am prepared to maintain and reply when I am around (which is alot but only after 1800 my time). Perhaps Rick could add better links to this board so that it can be readily accessed? A webboard is alot of work, and must be maintained regularly.. but if we could get it working we could get alot more feedback and be able to pass on important new changes faster. Thoughts? This is all I have come up with so far, but I hope you can see my idea. If you have a better idea of how to do it, please put it forward, plus if you are interested in helping (even if it is once a week etc) I would like to hear. As we gear up to some big changes and huge releases (;)) I think our public relations must also be geared up. This is a good start IMHO. dnh From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Tue Dec 19 00:45:46 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: the spell of conflict In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:34:41 +1100." Message-ID: <200012190645.WAA24325@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > Obviously there are still "issues" regarding conflict. I am happy to see it > go in, but it will be very tricky to handle. With that in mind though, it > will defn bring Lythander up to pace. Perhaps a spell for >40 or something? Well, assuming I've implemented the conflict spell correctly and haven't missed any flags, I think it is harmless in its current form. I've been trying it out: 1) In a room full of small trolls, ogres, and dark elves, it took about a minute before anything started dying, and about 5 minutes before 1/3 of the things had killed each other. 2) In the wyvern nest, a wyvern surrounded by 5 other wyverns survived for 1.5 minutes before dying. After another 30 sec I got bored and left. 3) Three red dragons fighting each other: there was one in the middle getting attacked by two others. This one lasted about 3 minutes before dying. 4) I got no experience for any of these things 5) Monsters under conflict will attack YOU if you're in range. Given all that stuff, I do NOT see conflict as too powerful a spell *at all*. Mixes of monsters which are vulnerable to their own spells kill themselves off anyway without conflict's help. Regards, PeterM From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Tue Dec 19 00:56:46 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:33 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re-added the Spell of Conflict Message-ID: <200012190656.WAA31546@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> I put the Spell of Conflict into the CVS again. Last time I didn't have much luck, but this time it seems I got it right. However, I thought that last time too, so if you notice anything weird like the last time I tried it, lemme know. PM From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Tue Dec 19 01:39:16 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Face of Death spell Message-ID: <200012190739.XAA29334@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> It's not acting as before: did someone change it? Doesn't even kill goblins for me. PM From jbontje at suespammers.org Tue Dec 19 05:59:30 2000 From: jbontje at suespammers.org (Joris Bontje) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Webboard.] Message-ID: <20001219125929.A25642@mids.student.utwente.nl> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000, David Hurst / Darth_bob / DNH / Carrot wrote: > For the webboard, I will contact MiDS (Joris) and see if it is possible to > start a general webboard. Hopefully a really simple interface where posters > don't even need to register names (unless it gets massive ;). I am prepared > to maintain and reply when I am around (which is alot but only after 1800 my > time). Perhaps Rick could add better links to this board so that it can be > readily accessed? A webboard is alot of work, and must be maintained > regularly.. but if we could get it working we could get alot more feedback > and be able to pass on important new changes faster. Thoughts? I don't want to setup a webboard on my server, my connection is temporary. In 6 years it will be definitly gone, if I die or get kicked out of the university, even earlier :) But I have a much, much, much better idea. Use SourceForge!!! It has a public forum, bug tracking system, tech support manager, doc manager, patch manager, task manager, surveys, CVS repository with webbrowser interface, anonymous FTP space,etc [insert standard SourceForge advocacy here]. Let others (sourceforge staff) do the technical maintainance, they are fulltime skilled people. Their mailinglist facilities look very good. We have a few mailinglists now, but when I read things about a 6 day index building time (maybe I don't get it), I get the idea that things are wrong. Almost everything is there, only have to use it :) MiDs / Joris From andi.vogl at gmx.net Tue Dec 19 07:00:16 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. In-Reply-To: <3A3EE5E2.F00DA658@scruz.net> Message-ID: <000001c069bb$a44ec380$9d9ee23e@kyle> Mark W.wrote: > Peter Mardahl wrote: > > I'd rather read a book. Having to coax info out of a priest by > > repeating successive keywords seems like pure hoop-jumping to me. > > I was thinking something similar. While talking should be used more > in the game, the fact remains that the communication with NPC's basically > suck, because you need to figure out what keyword they need to continue > conversation. I think this is one of those things for the 2.0 release. Call them suckers, I still prefer NPCs over books in most cases. A serious quest without NPCs doesn't seem right to me. Just imagine pupland with books lying around in the cities and tavers... books instead of NPCs. What we really need to do is highliting the NPC's keywords as they appear in his speech. Make them bold or underlined, so that the player knows how to continue the conversation. And if a certain keyword is supposed to be "secret", the NPC simply doesn't mention it before - the latter is already the case in all maps that I can recall. About the gods' temples: I don't really care too much weither you write the descriptions in a book or an NPC for now. Do whatever pleases the majority. Andreas V. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Tue Dec 19 10:42:24 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Webboard.] In-Reply-To: <20001219125929.A25642@mids.student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: Hi Yes, and i think we should do, what we yet do, but more systematic. Real-time.com is our CF main site - for the game. And it is pretty large with this. SouceForge should be for the dev team, and the dev stuff. We should not mix both, thats confuse most times. As developer you got an different look to CF as players. Also, with more players and more dev people, both parts will grow, and real-time, again, is big and will grow up. With all the changes to gameplay the tanners have quite a lot to do there (always thanks for it!). So, sourceforge as dev site is a good choice for me. MichToen > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000, David Hurst / Darth_bob / DNH / Carrot wrote: > > For the webboard, I will contact MiDS (Joris) and see if it is > possible to > > start a general webboard. Hopefully a really simple interface > where posters > > don't even need to register names (unless it gets massive ;). I > am prepared > > to maintain and reply when I am around (which is alot but only > after 1800 my > > time). Perhaps Rick could add better links to this board so > that it can be > > readily accessed? A webboard is alot of work, and must be maintained > > regularly.. but if we could get it working we could get alot > more feedback > > and be able to pass on important new changes faster. Thoughts? > I don't want to setup a webboard on my server, my connection is > temporary. In 6 > years it will be definitly gone, if I die or get kicked out of > the university, > even earlier :) But I have a much, much, much better idea. > Use SourceForge!!! > It has a public forum, bug tracking system, tech support manager, > doc manager, > patch manager, task manager, surveys, CVS repository with > webbrowser interface, > anonymous FTP space,etc [insert standard SourceForge advocacy > here]. Let others > (sourceforge staff) do the technical maintainance, they are > fulltime skilled > people. > Their mailinglist facilities look very good. We have a few > mailinglists now, > but when I read things about a 6 day index building time (maybe I > don't get it), > I get the idea that things are wrong. > > Almost everything is there, only have to use it :) > > MiDs / Joris > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel > From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Tue Dec 19 12:13:48 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: the spell of conflict In-Reply-To: <200012190645.WAA24325@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:45:46PM -0800 References: <200012190645.WAA24325@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001219191348.B6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:45:46PM -0800, Peter Mardahl wrote: > Given all that stuff, I do NOT see conflict as too powerful a spell > *at all*. Mixes of monsters which are vulnerable to their own I'm wondering if conflict can be used as a substitute to paralysis: When some dragons are busy attacking each other, can you fire spells at them from a distance without the dragons turning on you? -- Jan From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Tue Dec 19 12:19:01 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Status of gods project? In-Reply-To: <200012190455.UAA13859@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:55:43PM -0800 References: <200012190455.UAA13859@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001219191901.C6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:55:43PM -0800, Peter Mardahl wrote: > Despite your update on the topic, DB, I'm still not too clear > on the status of the Gods patch. > 2) coding to hand out > items and spells ?? ?? > in a god-specific > manner > > 3) set up to hand out ?? ?? > items and spells > (i.e., arches) The patch might need porting to the latest CVS version. Apart from that, it should be ready for CVS. -- Jan From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Tue Dec 19 12:22:45 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] gods status In-Reply-To: ; from dhurst@it.swin.edu.au on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:34:41PM +1100 References: Message-ID: <20001219192245.D6969@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:34:41PM +1100, David Hurst wrote: > Well I just sent off a message to Jan. This is currently in Jans ball park, > I can't do anything until he has released the new interevention stuff. All I I sent the latest version of the patch to this list quite a while ago. It was already tested and working fine for me at that time. > Once again Jan's area. I really need to talk to Jan on irc to settle a few > questions I have... Try email instead. I don't even have an IRC client installed. -- Jan From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Tue Dec 19 14:39:37 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:00:16 +0100." <000001c069bb$a44ec380$9d9ee23e@kyle> Message-ID: <200012192039.MAA09451@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> > Mark W.wrote: > > > Peter Mardahl wrote: > > > I'd rather read a book. Having to coax info out of a priest by > > > repeating successive keywords seems like pure hoop-jumping to me. > > > > I was thinking something similar. While talking should be used more > > in the game, the fact remains that the communication with NPC's basically > > suck, because you need to figure out what keyword they need to continue > > conversation. I think this is one of those things for the 2.0 release. > > Call them suckers, I still prefer NPCs over books in most cases. > A serious quest without NPCs doesn't seem right to me. Just imagine > pupland with books lying around in the cities and tavers... books > instead of NPCs. I agree you have a point: NPCs are better for info in many cases, but sometimes books are better. This is one of those cases. Nearly every religion takes itself seriously enough to codify their teachings into a book. And Mark's point that books are far easier to use is a good one. These holy books are for newbies getting set up, not for people doing quests. PM From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 19 18:31:44 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Webboard. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I can create a section on the main page that is devoted to News. Yes, I can update it with information that is sent to me. Should it just be simple text or should I look into a scrolling applet or something? On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, David Hurst wrote: [SNIP] > For the News webpage, Rick, I would be really interested to know if you > could manage to update the webpage sort of once a morning with one of two > news worthy items. This is to add more of a dynamic feel to the pages and > make players/readers want to visit more regularly. I have my ear firmly held > on the irc channel and you could perhaps monitor this list. Each day I would > send you some item of interest which you could add to the news? Just a > thought but I am really interested in broading our presence and a good way > to do this is to get more readers to your webpage. Thoughts? > From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 19 18:46:32 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Website Followup Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I have finished importing and updating the website in DreamWeaver. I went ahead and published it now because I was running into to much "double work" where I would make a change on the site in NetObjects, then make the same change to the site in DreamWeaver... The look of the site hasn't changed that much, but the directory stucture and URL's have. The next step for me is to start updating the content for the changes that were made in v0.95.8 which include Partial Resistence, Races & Classes, New god spells, New god Info and some other things I saw get committed to CVS (entrance fee for Lord of Rings in Santo Dominion, etc.) to name a few. Any suggestions for the site or if you encounter any problems viewing the site, please let me know. -- From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Tue Dec 19 18:56:22 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Website Followup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:46:32 CST." Message-ID: <200012200056.QAA05576@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Hi Rick, I appreciate that you're doing such a good job with the crossfire website. Is there any way we (us developers) can help out? I mean, it really seems like a lot of work to keep up with everything we've done, and all the changes aren't even finalized yet. There are going to be more: lots more. PeterM > Hi Everyone, > > I have finished importing and updating the website in DreamWeaver. I went > ahead and published it now because I was running into to much "double > work" where I would make a change on the site in NetObjects, then make > the same change to the site in DreamWeaver... > > The look of the site hasn't changed that much, but the directory stucture and > URL's have. > > The next step for me is to start updating the content for the changes that > were made in v0.95.8 which include Partial Resistence, Races & Classes, > New god spells, New god Info and some other things I saw get committed to > CVS (entrance fee for Lord of Rings in Santo Dominion, etc.) to name a > few. > > Any suggestions for the site or if you encounter any problems viewing the > site, please let me know. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From tanner at real-time.com Tue Dec 19 18:59:53 2000 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Website Followup In-Reply-To: <200012200056.QAA05576@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>; from peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:56:22PM -0800 References: <200012200056.QAA05576@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20001219185953.E2093@real-time.com> Quoting Peter Mardahl (peterm@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU): > > Hi Rick, > > I appreciate that you're doing such a good job with the crossfire > website. Is there any way we (us developers) can help out? > I mean, it really seems like a lot of work to keep up with > everything we've done, and all the changes aren't even finalized > yet. > > There are going to be more: lots more. Be nice to have a tool that would take the the arch file and put it into some sort of SQL database (like MySQL), then the monster, item, weapon, armour thing could be dynamically generate those web pages. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (612)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (612)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 19 19:46:36 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Website Followup In-Reply-To: <200012200056.QAA05576@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: Thank you very much for the compliment! I'm not that Linux savy or have much understanding of the source code. So, when I look at the CVS checkin (announcements?) I am able to pick out bits and pieces but it probably takes me longer then it should. ;) Is there some command (like crossfire -m2 for monsters) to make information on the weapons or spells more readable so I just have to cut and paste it? Hmm, I just saw Bob Tanner's post - looks like he beat me to it.. =) I will have to get back to you on this.. On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Peter Mardahl wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > I appreciate that you're doing such a good job with the crossfire > website. Is there any way we (us developers) can help out? > I mean, it really seems like a lot of work to keep up with > everything we've done, and all the changes aren't even finalized > yet. > > There are going to be more: lots more. > > PeterM > From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Tue Dec 19 19:52:42 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Thanks Rick Message-ID: I suggest using your current webpage layouy for the news.. ie have semitables which have the standard green header containing the title, then in a black box, the actual content. Personally I don't like scrolling applets etc. Simple is better for this IMHO =). I also note there is a webboard at viksten? I have met Olle on occasions.. I wonder if he is still around. Anyway, if we could try and better maintain that board, and put a link DIRECTLY to it.. that might be abit better. About updating your map spoilers.. be very thankful you didn't write any for pupland =). Most of the changes AV has been making are either pupland related, or simply touching up.. not really changing the general map so that shouldn't be to bad. =|. Also repeat peterm's question, do you want any help? we could probably send you the exact changes we make directly to you or something? ie if peterm were to add a new spell.. he would send a message with what is basically is? just a thought. dnh From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 19 20:09:30 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Thanks Rick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, David Hurst wrote: > I suggest using your current webpage layouy for the news.. ie have > semitables which have the standard green header containing the title, then > in a black box, the actual content. Personally I don't like scrolling > applets etc. Simple is better for this IMHO =). I also note there is a > webboard at viksten? I have met Olle on occasions.. I wonder if he is still > around. Anyway, if we could try and better maintain that board, and put a > link DIRECTLY to it.. that might be abit better. When Olle Viksten first announced that he had the Crossfire board setup, it did get used quite a bit. But now, I think the traffic has tapered off because the mailing lists are getting better responses now. > > About updating your map spoilers.. be very thankful you didn't write any for > pupland =). Most of the changes AV has been making are either pupland > related, or simply touching up.. not really changing the general map so that > shouldn't be to bad. =|. Also repeat peterm's question, do you want any > help? we could probably send you the exact changes we make directly to you > or something? ie if peterm were to add a new spell.. he would send a message > with what is basically is? just a thought. Maybe if some of the checkins could be "dummed" down a bit so I just have to do a cut & paste. For instance there was an update to the Masumune weapon (http://lists.sourceforge.net/archives//crossfire-cvs/2000-December/000310.html) I think I understand most of what is shown (+2 Con, +1 Wis, Damage 25, resist drain 100%, resist ghosthit 100%, resist depleton 30%) but the spoiler page lists the speed of the weapon. How do I figure that out? As far as any further help, map summaries are always nice, so is proof reading for accuracy in areas like the FAQ or Crossfire Handbook. Also, thank you for the Thank You ;) From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Tue Dec 19 20:24:21 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Thanks Rick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I suggest using your current webpage layouy for the news.. ie have > semitables which have the standard green header containing the title, then > in a black box, the actual content. Personally I don't like scrolling > applets etc. Simple is better for this IMHO =). I also note there is a > webboard at viksten? I have met Olle on occasions.. I wonder if he is still > around. Anyway, if we could try and better maintain that board, and put a > link DIRECTLY to it.. that might be abit better. When Olle Viksten first announced that he had the Crossfire board setup, it did get used quite a bit. But now, I think the traffic has tapered off because the mailing lists are getting better responses now. Okay, well.. do we keep this as the board? > > About updating your map spoilers.. be very thankful you didn't write any for > pupland =). Most of the changes AV has been making are either pupland > related, or simply touching up.. not really changing the general map so that > shouldn't be to bad. =|. Also repeat peterm's question, do you want any > help? we could probably send you the exact changes we make directly to you > or something? ie if peterm were to add a new spell.. he would send a message > with what is basically is? just a thought. " Maybe if some of the checkins could be "dummed" down a bit so I just have to do a cut & paste. For instance there was an update to the Masumune weapon (http://lists.sourceforge.net/archives//crossfire-cvs/2000-December/000310.h tml) I think I understand most of what is shown (+2 Con, +1 Wis, Damage 25, resist drain 100%, resist ghosthit 100%, resist depleton 30%) but the spoiler page lists the speed of the weapon. How do I figure that out? " Ahhh yes. Well that information is in the arch file =). Have you got CVS of the arch there? Simply vim it and scroll down for speed. That value is the speed AFAIK. Actually you could just grab the archs, then delete all the graphics and change the archs to txts. Then you could just directly link through netscape to each one, making simple reading (although archs are generally very long, most items are quite short in comparison). " As far as any further help, map summaries are always nice, so is proof reading for accuracy in areas like the FAQ or Crossfire Handbook. Also, thank you for the Thank You ;) " mmm, well I suppose it would be easier if you did it as it came in.. instead of doing it all in one go =|. Do we want to start a system of keeping Rick up-to-date? Rick's work is absolutely excellent, but it must be a nightmare trying to keep up with us at out current pace =|. dnh From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Tue Dec 19 22:07:50 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Sudden thought on acid Message-ID: While peterm will bite my head off for this, I shall say it anyway ;). Realistically, acid is so unlikely to cause any real damage to items it isn't funny. A piece of mithril or platinum would (I assume mithril considering they dig it up pure)be so unreactive that acid would maybe take off a milimeter an hour =). Where as, a large club, wielded by a rather large force, say an elephant ;), would be able to pummel a piece of full plate mail in a few seconds. Why is it, that out items have no durability factor, and yet we have acid damage. For a much more fun and dare I say it, realistic experience, acid should take off durability, which should be so extraordinarily high for items like mithril and platinum that such forms of damage could be ignored. Perhaps this is a project alittle like the # hands stuff I was talking about. Long term ;). None the less it would solve all our acid woes (when durability for example reached 0, one stat of the item would be reduced once. If the item gets down to say 2, it can be repaired (for a large sum of money) and thus no permanent affect has been made. On the other hand, acid as an attack_type would more than certainly be an extremely fast and painful form of damage, something to be truely scared of. Plus it would quite happily flow straight through chain or ring mail straight to the very flesh of the player, ouch! I thought perhaps we could create an item of say "Animal Oil" that you could rub (once) into an item and it would become immune to acid (just that item, and it wouldn't stop damage), perhaps it could slowly wear off. Anyway, just some thought I just had while sitting here attempting to work ;). dnh From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 19 22:48:12 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:34 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Sudden thought on acid References: Message-ID: <3A403A0C.E4C55529@scruz.net> David Hurst wrote: > > While peterm will bite my head off for this, I shall say it anyway ;). > > Realistically, acid is so unlikely to cause any real damage to items it > isn't funny. A piece of mithril or platinum would (I assume mithril > considering they dig it up pure)be so unreactive that acid would maybe take > off a milimeter an hour =). Depending on the acid, for some materials, like iron, you could corrode it at a very rapid rate in the real world. But the game is not about realism. I think the severe and quick damage caused by acid probably goes back a bit to the AD&D settings, where things like rust monsters, black puddings, and so on would corrode items and a fantasic rate (rust monsters could destroy something like plate armor in one round, where I think black puddings would take 3 rounds to do it). But yeah, throwing a flash of acid at someone is unlikely to do very much damage to most metal items. I agree that there should be some form of item quality/damage. Right now, most all 'good' items/artifacts are immune to acid attacks (because they have no material or made of adamantite), and so at some point, you basically don't care much about acid anymore. If items were repairable, I would say very few items should actually be immune. But one issue no matter what is playability. Might & Magic VI or VII had items getting broken, and all I really found it to be was a nuisance (ok, need to go repair that item). So I'm not sure if items getting old/breaking down/needing repair would really make things more interesting or not (now granted, various skills like smithery could perhaps let you repair those items, so it may make some skills more relevant). That said, my general thoughts are: 1) Acid attacks should be very rare. Usage of the acid attacking monsters (black pudding, green slime, rust monster) should be very uncommon. Any other monsters that attack with acid should be revisited. 2) Acid attacks should be damaging/something you are really afraid of, and not 'ho hum - a rust monster, who cares'. 3) Most every item should be vulnerable to acid attacks, so even high level characters fear them. 4) Players should have at least some notice before running into that acid attacking monster. For example, perhaps its behind a great guarding the treasure hoard - to get the treasure, you need to take it out (or at least release). They should not be hidden behind a solid door and when you open the door the first thing you see is your items being corroded (although this case may be acceptable if there are signs or 'other' clues around). Way back when, I remember that this was one of those things that really caused a character of mine to grab a bow and a bunch of arrows - a black pudding loose, and there's a way to kill it with range (this was before rods were around, but wands were around also). I would actually make the same argument for drain attacktype. Right away, ring of life and strange ring should perhaps have resist_drain 90 (if they don't already). But at one time, grim reapers were something really feared (and once again, find that wand of fire or the like). Now days, at some certain point, drain monsters become 'ho hum' because your immune. I think having some situations where you go 'oh !$@$' as you see the monster coming at you make the game more interesting, not less. Putting a little fear into the players once in a while is probably a good thing. From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Tue Dec 19 23:17:32 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Drain Message-ID: I agree about your acid stuff... Acid is something which is still feared even by high players, plus now, Gorokh followers will have a fairly nasty "vitriol" acid spell. Indeed, I would actually make the same argument for drain attacktype. Right away, ring of life and strange ring should perhaps have resist_drain 90 (if they don't already). But at one time, grim reapers were something really feared (and once again, find that wand of fire or the like). Now days, at some certain point, drain monsters become 'ho hum' because your immune. It wasn't to long ago that I got my first taste of drain! I tell you I went straight out and bought a strange ring. =). Those things take of )(*& loads of points and very quickly. I think that is half the reason we have them so defended against. You can literally go from good to bad in a few seconds with one of those. I am actually intending on adding life stealing and grace stealing to the drain attack_type (specifically for devourers). I think we really need to review drain and depletion, especially now that it is in the shadow of PR! Grim reapers are everywhere and without a ring you are lost, I think it is alittle over the top, like a dragon was before PR, if we could make the PR reduce the % points drained it might be alittle better? But I seriously lost 3 levels when I got attacked by one and I was too busy attacking demons! food for thought. dnh From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 19 23:51:06 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Drain References: Message-ID: <3A4048CA.99EB9990@scruz.net> David Hurst wrote: > It wasn't to long ago that I got my first taste of drain! I tell you I went > straight out and bought a strange ring. =). Those things take of )(*& loads > of points and very quickly. I think that is half the reason we have them so > defended against. You can literally go from good to bad in a few seconds > with one of those. I am actually intending on adding life stealing and grace > stealing to the drain attack_type (specifically for devourers). I think we > really need to review drain and depletion, especially now that it is in the > shadow of PR! Grim reapers are everywhere and without a ring you are lost, I > think it is alittle over the top, like a dragon was before PR, if we could > make the PR reduce the % points drained it might be alittle better? But I > seriously lost 3 levels when I got attacked by one and I was too busy > attacking demons! drain resistance currently reduces proportionally. If you are 90% resistance to drain, you would only lose 10% the experience as if you were not resistant to drain at all. Depletion has never struct me as a big deal. Sure, you need to go out and buy a potion of life (was restoration), but other than that, it is mostly a nuisance. I don't know how you would deal with depletion and PR - you can't drain a fraction of a stat. I think the problem is really the grim reapers are probably too common. As said with my acid message, those monsters should be rare. I think the commonality is directly related to ease of immunity. IF map makers perceive that most everyone will be immune to the monster, they don't seem much issue tossing in a bunch of those. I think if the ring of life did not exist, there would be a lot less grim reapers out there (strange ring has been around for a long time, but that is a very hard ring to find - much harder than say the ring of life and not as good as the ring of life). Even when I'm not worrying about drain, I'll probably have a ring of life on simply for the regen properties. But I think the point remains - if you got into that same situation again (grim reaper and demons around), I think you would probably change your strategy - your not going to keep bashing on the demons and let the grim reaper bash on you. You'll retreat, equip appropriate items/spells, take out the grim reaper, and then proceed to the demons. What makes them put fear into your heart is because they are so nasty. If they just drained a tenth of a level, once again, you probably wouldn't care about them much. But I'll repeat again - these nasty monsters add some interest to the game, but they must be used sparingly. From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Wed Dec 20 03:57:55 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Valriel, glowing players. Message-ID: I refer people to my proposals (mids.student.utwente.nl/~dnh/crossfire_pantheon.html). You will see for valriel that I have written in, glowing. Peterm and I have come to the point where it is time to think about implementing this but we are still having doubts. Jan expressed the concern that it may make it worse for the player, not better, to be glowing. Peterm remains neutral, although he would rather not do it at all, than make it a spell. I am slightly weighted towards making them perm glow (Making it both a benefit and a bane). I am wondering what people think, of making players perm glow if they worship valriel (who now out of interest is called light of heaven =). It is something which would be very cool (very useful for parties) and peterm says he can do it, we would just like to hear your thoughts. dnh ps. Valriel is getting sunspear (and it is being removed from the books) plus a new blinding cone (kind of a paralyze spell, that may or may not actually cause damage). The avatar will probably be turned down alittle (to compensate for holy word). From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Wed Dec 20 07:50:01 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] crossfire map editor. In-Reply-To: <3A3EE9D4.95B3E570@scruz.net>; from mwedel@scruz.net on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:53:40PM -0800 References: <3A3EE9D4.95B3E570@scruz.net> Message-ID: <20001220155001.A27353@tukki.jyu.fi> On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:53:40PM -0800, Mark Wedel wrote: > > Just to recap: > > current crossedit apparantly has severe problems with newest versions of Xaw > making it unusable. So discussion has started on making a new crossedit. The first step into this direction, would be the separation of crossedit and crossserver source trees. This should be done before we move to sourceforge. <...> > another method would be to keep it in C, but instead use a toolkit that has a >common API set for both unix and windows. Once again, saves porting effort, but >this needs to be a pretty mainstream library. If people running unix have to >jump through a dozen hoops to get the library and have it set up (Because of >various dependancies or other issues), this may not be ideal. I'm presuming >that windows would be distributed in binary form, so they won't need to jump >through the hoops. I still propose fltk. Only drawback for this API is "support for MacOS is under development". On the good side is "Very small & fast portable 2-D drawing library to hide Xlib and WIN32". http://sourceforge.net/projects/fltk <...> > Whichever option for development is chosen, I do have the following thoughts: > 1) Editor will be a separate package and not part of the server. Absolutely. > 2) user can grab updated archetypes and image files for his editor to create > maps. In face, breaking the files generated from the 'arch' distribution off > from the server may not be a bad idea in any case, as I get the feeling that if > 1.0 ends up being very stable, the archs will probably end up changing more than > the source will. Looks likely as fair amount balancing is still about to happend. > 3) user does not need map distribution to make new maps. They can easily enough > make a standalone set of maps and send it to whoever who can then link it into > the the main distribution. But we do need good documentation. And tutorials. -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From andi.vogl at gmx.net Wed Dec 20 14:59:14 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] new initial map (-> HallOfSelection) Message-ID: <000001c06ac7$b8120a00$8c15993e@kyle> I wanted to clean up the character creation process, so I wrote a patch to change the initial map from "/city/city" (scorn) to "/HallOfSelection", as it was originally intended. Of course I also took care about updating the players death- respawn position after walking through one of the player_changers (-> class change). And I modified the HallOfSelection a bit. This I have tested, and since it worked fine I put it on CVS. So far so good. What still bothers me a little is the fact that Peter M. has tried to do the exact thing some time ago, and he had to face very big troubles instantly (memory violation: a map cut into half?!). Fortunately Peter's problems did not show up with my patch, but there was still a little weirdness that I want to mention: There was an old map-bug in "/city/kar/drink" - startx, starty was missing although needed (must point to 1,1). Don't ask me why but this bug did not cause bad effect before my patch it seems. I fixed it now of course, and I hope it's the only bug of it's kind. Still, if anyone can think of possible explanations for this and that, please lemme know. Andreas V. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Wed Dec 20 16:30:18 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] about acid & drain Message-ID: <000101c06ad4$6f9635a0$8c15993e@kyle> We must face it: Acid and drain have been considered a great nuisance both by most players and map-makers. That of course is the reason why there are these easy-to-get immunities. And that again caused map-makers to insert acid/drain-monsters without particular care. Before even thinking about making acid/drain "more nasty" we must implement at least the following features: o A serious way to "repair" the effects of acid-corrosion: Collecting artifacts is what CF-players usually enjoy most. If we carelessly ruin them, players get annoyed real hard. o Ways to figure out a monster's attacktypes *before* learning the hard way (Maybe a spell, call it "analyze monster"?): A lot of high level special monsters have acid/drain/depletion- attacktypes just for the fun of it. Nobody cared about these, since players were supposed to wear immunities at those levels. It would surely suck to loose 10 exp-levels or have stuff corroded just because this "Fred, the Big Demon" had a few more attacktypes than you would have expected. While I actually do like the idea of items with different states of quality, the thought of having to reduce grimreapers/rustmonsters.. does not please me. Search for those monsters with grep in the mapdir, and you will instantly know the reason. Andreas V. From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Wed Dec 20 17:37:48 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] acid and drain Message-ID: I agree with both Mark and AV. I personally see acid and drain as two attack_types which as AV says, are so powerful that people quickly give out immunity because it annoys them so much. Then because everyone quickly gets immunity.. map makers don't mind putting it in for abit of fun. Drain also has the special quality that it will kill avatars in one hit making a grim reaper extar ordinarily powerful, thus players need immunity. The solution I would most be happy with is durability, and then being able to either pay for or use smithery to repair the item.. permanent damage occuring only after all the durability has been destroyed (which will set durability back to the initial value, but take the item down alittle (from +3 to +2)). This though as Mark has pointed out, is not always "fun" and that tends to be the important thing. Well I must point out that permanent damage to items is DEFN not fun, after spending 2000pp on that plus +4 sword then to have it taken back to +3 because of a naughty rust monster... (down the wells) did not make me think "fun" =). Ahhh well, it isn't "fun" dieing either, but in the long run it makes crossfire a much more fun game because it become a challenge... perhaps this is true of acid also? Drain doesn't pup up as much, or at least I haven't noticed it as much, because all the standard rings give immunity to it, so you hardly ever actually get affected at high levels by it. And what about adding life stealing? is that just adding insult to injury? if it is, we will need to give devourers something to balance, as life stealing was a major point in the changes. thought for food. dnh From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Wed Dec 20 17:56:16 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] New AV patch triggers OLD map bug, apparently: In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:59:14 +0100." <000001c06ac7$b8120a00$8c15993e@kyle> Message-ID: <200012202356.PAA16293@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> So the new map patch seems to be triggering some OLD bugs in crossfire. I've looked at AV's code, and I do not believe he's done anything wrong. Here is MichToen's description of what happens: hi the new map patch seems to invoke some stranges to the game in the jones house for example you appear in the middle of the +house also player reports, that happens in shops too > heh > I tried that patch once and withdrew it > but the effects were worse it seems that the only effect... the general shop in scorn is +effected, the other not... This sort of weird behavior is partly why I did the Word of Recall into the Hall of Selection hack, except the problems I saw were more severe. I'd tried essentially the same thing AV has done: his side effects are much less severe than the ones I saw, however. So I challenge the crossfire developers: 1) WHY IS AV'S PATCH TRIGGERING THIS WEIRD BEHAVIOR? 2) WHAT CAUSES THE INTERMITTENT MAP BUG WE SEE? Regards, PeterM > I wanted to clean up the character creation process, > so I wrote a patch to change the initial map from "/city/city" > (scorn) to "/HallOfSelection", as it was originally intended. > Of course I also took care about updating the players death- > respawn position after walking through one of the player_changers > (-> class change). And I modified the HallOfSelection a bit. > This I have tested, and since it worked fine I put it on CVS. > > So far so good. What still bothers me a little is the fact > that Peter M. has tried to do the exact thing some time ago, > and he had to face very big troubles instantly (memory violation: > a map cut into half?!). > > Fortunately Peter's problems did not show up with my patch, but > there was still a little weirdness that I want to mention: > There was an old map-bug in "/city/kar/drink" - startx, starty > was missing although needed (must point to 1,1). > Don't ask me why but this bug did not cause bad effect before > my patch it seems. I fixed it now of course, and I hope it's > the only bug of it's kind. > > Still, if anyone can think of possible explanations for this and > that, please lemme know. > > > Andreas V. > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Wed Dec 20 19:02:48 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] generators Message-ID: Hi Hm, after i see no skulls coming out of the skulls generator, i tried this one the wyvvern generators in dragon caves entry. There was 7 generators. After i killed all wyvverns, i wait. After 2 minutes (!) 4 comes out. Well, you told me that they come slow, but this is REALLY slow. Much to slow i think. Some of the fun of the skull generators are that they generate then in a resonable row. 2 minutes or above is way to slow. MichToen From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Wed Dec 20 19:05:14 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] PR stats values server->client Message-ID: Hi I include in the dx client the PR stats value from the STATS cmd, but i never recieve a value. Are they not in the current server? Mids runs the last day ones. MichToen From dhurst at it.swin.edu.au Wed Dec 20 19:55:03 2000 From: dhurst at it.swin.edu.au (David Hurst) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Ehh? no one gonna comment on glowing? Message-ID: If no one will comment I shall ask peterm to go ahead and do it, then if it doesn't work we will cut it... but it seems alittle unfair on peterm, to ask him to do something then just take it out =| Mark? AV? see previous post. dnh From mwedel at scruz.net Wed Dec 20 21:29:58 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Ehh? no one gonna comment on glowing? References: Message-ID: <3A417936.989148A4@scruz.net> Have some patience. This is the first I've looked at my mail today. I personally can't comment much, as I don't really know how it will affect players or not. Perhaps the best compromise is to make this a skill or free spell that the player can activate/deactive as needed (similar to Q's levitate). This way, the player can use if it they desire, but if they think it will be harmful in some situation, they can turn it off. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Thu Dec 21 03:28:25 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] map-bugs fixed :-) In-Reply-To: <200012202356.PAA16293@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <000101c06b30$5fa931e0$0414993e@kyle> > So the new map patch seems to be triggering some OLD bugs > in crossfire. I've looked at AV's code, and I do not believe he's > done anything wrong. > [...] > So I challenge the crossfire developers: > > 1) WHY IS AV'S PATCH TRIGGERING THIS WEIRD BEHAVIOR? > 2) WHAT CAUSES THE INTERMITTENT MAP BUG WE SEE? Think I figured out the answer: hp, sp in map.arc obviously work as default values for startx, starty in all maps. I set these to 5,7 and that caused the "old map-bugs" to show up. Now I set it back to 1,1 and everything's doing fine again. My new HallOfSelection does also still work as before. Andreas V. From echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de Thu Dec 21 07:12:27 2000 From: echter at informatik.uni-rostock.de (Jan Echternach) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Valriel, glowing players. In-Reply-To: ; from dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 08:57:55PM +1100 References: Message-ID: <20001221141227.B3225@hokkaido.informatik.uni-rostock.de> On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 08:57:55PM +1100, dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au wrote: > but we are still having doubts. Jan expressed the concern that it may make > it worse for the player, not better, to be glowing. Peterm remains > I am slightly weighted towards making them perm glow (Making it both a > benefit and a bane). I am wondering what people think, of making players Glowing was proposed as an advantage, and I objected to it because it has significant disadvantages. But I have no argument against giving Valriel a disadvantage. So go ahead and implement the permanent glow. Valriel isn't an assassin after all. Monsters see its followers before they strike. -- Jan From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Fri Dec 22 01:25:13 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] troubles with crossedit & libXaw In-Reply-To: <000001c0681d$c5e91120$9a9ee23e@kyle>; from andi.vogl@gmx.net on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:37:41PM +0100 References: <000001c0681d$c5e91120$9a9ee23e@kyle> Message-ID: <20001222092513.A17213@tukki.jyu.fi> On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:37:41PM +0100, Andreas Vogl wrote: > Pertti Karppinen and me, we both have updated our linux > distributions lately, and we both have troubles with > Crossedit (CE) now. > Pertti K. is using a daily updated debian, me using SuSE 7.0. OK. Turns out that the no-select-from-map-bug I was having was unrelated to crossedit. It had something to do with my windowmanager/enviroment. I can now atleast select things on a map. -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From tanner at real-time.com Fri Dec 22 16:20:06 2000 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] NO metaserver participation? Message-ID: <20001222162006.C31438@real-time.com> What do you need to change so that you do NOT participate in the metaserver? -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From tanner at real-time.com Fri Dec 22 17:02:06 2000 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Bugs? Message-ID: <20001222170206.F5304@real-time.com> Before I hit bugzilla, I am seeing this in the logfiles: BUG: SK_level(arch altar, name altar of detect magic (10 gp)): level <= 0 BUG: SK_level(arch altar, name altar of detect curse (25 gp)): level <= 0 This really a bug? -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 22 23:44:41 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Bugs? References: <20001222170206.F5304@real-time.com> Message-ID: <3A443BC9.6C79B5E1@scruz.net> Bob Tanner wrote: > > Before I hit bugzilla, I am seeing this in the logfiles: > > BUG: SK_level(arch altar, name altar of detect magic (10 gp)): level <= 0 > BUG: SK_level(arch altar, name altar of detect curse (25 gp)): level <= 0 > > This really a bug? I would say they are bugs, but not really serious bugs. Basically, the server code will complain anytime a spell is cast by a 0 level object. Those altars are casting the spell at 0 level. For those particular spells, it doesn't make a difference, as those two spells at least don't have any level variations. My guess for a fix would be to edit the maps those objects occur on and change the altars to have level 1. From mwedel at scruz.net Fri Dec 22 23:53:38 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:35 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] crossfire map editor. References: <3A3EE9D4.95B3E570@scruz.net> <20001220155001.A27353@tukki.jyu.fi> Message-ID: <3A443DE2.85C33FFD@scruz.net> "Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)" wrote: > > The first step into this direction, would be the separation of crossedit and > crossserver source trees. This should be done before we move to > sourceforge. Note that there is very little crossedit specific code in common. So basically just removing the crossedit directory would achieve this. And while a seperate distribution is a must have, it would still be nice if that seperate distribution had/kept the same basic object functions, so a fix in one fixes the other. This is also helps in terms of consistency. While the object & map functions could be written special for the editor, if it stacks the objects on the space different, you now get a place of what the player sees in the editor is different when the map is played. A very general approach could of course be taken - the editor could know some certain key values (like faces, and messages), but otherwise treat each object a just a bunch of text. In that way, it does not need to know the internals of the object. While this creates a very general editor, at the same time it allows for a lot more errors to be made by the map maker. > I still propose fltk. Only drawback for this API is "support for MacOS is > under development". On the good side is "Very small & fast portable 2-D > drawing library to hide Xlib and WIN32". > http://sourceforge.net/projects/fltk I think whoever decides to write this will largely determine the toolkit (and most all other factors) used. and the editors could very well end up like the clients - multiple editors, with potentially different features/UI depending on the developer. That probably is not an ideal approach, and there should probably be at least one referance implementation of and editor (similar to the clients), but that could just remain the current one for that matter. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Sat Dec 23 12:08:47 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Bugs? In-Reply-To: <3A443BC9.6C79B5E1@scruz.net> Message-ID: > Bob Tanner wrote: > > > > Before I hit bugzilla, I am seeing this in the logfiles: > > > > BUG: SK_level(arch altar, name altar of detect magic (10 gp)): > level <= 0 > > BUG: SK_level(arch altar, name altar of detect curse (25 gp)): > level <= 0 > > > > This really a bug? > > I would say they are bugs, but not really serious bugs. > > Basically, the server code will complain anytime a spell is cast > by a 0 level > object. Those altars are casting the spell at 0 level. For > those particular > spells, it doesn't make a difference, as those two spells at > least don't have > any level variations. > > My guess for a fix would be to edit the maps those objects occur > on and change > the altars to have level 1. Also in answer to your CF editor mail following this: To fix and in first case to find and SHOW this kind of "side effects" should be part of the editor. Like Mark wants a key which shows the trigger connection between map object, there should be a "test map" key, which runs through a map and test these things. Like finding these possible altar bug, giving then a warning message, but also find unattached triggers, etc. These kind of rules can be easy implemented in some kind of script language. This isn't a big coding part, but much more than just a feature. It will cut off most of this kind of glitches and makes maps more understandable. I think this is a problem with the current editor, that he is not very "user friendly" in his interface and it is laking this kind of "self explaining" and features. Remember, that we are the people thats knows at most about CF. All other knows alot less. So, the editor should remember this and giving this people the help to understood CF and the map system. Its easy: If a guy needs to much CF interna to make maps and using the editor, he will perhaps start to go in code and mailing list to learn it (many will not) but in all cases, this time is lost for map making. And because this is a hobby for all of us, these people will not spend unlimited time in CF. Also, there is often a kind of "middle interesting time" in things like games. If this interest runs out, people will drop it. It should be a goal, to give this kind of people a map editor which they can use, and which collect a nice set of maps from them, before they leave CF. Ok, this is somekind of "to strategic" and perhaps it will not really work, but the other side works always: It the editor to complex or bad in interface, we will lake in maps. And for me i can say, that i find the work with the editor in this state not very comfortable. It don't gives me the wish to implement big set with it. MichToen From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 24 14:05:12 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] New god intervention patch. Message-ID: <3A4656F8.1C7C7748@scruz.net> I took Jan's latest god intervention patch (38d) and applied it to my source (latest CVS). IT required some hand merging, but other than that, it appears OK, but I haven't extensively tested it. do people want me to check it into main CVS? Make a diff and post it here for further test? I'll probably check in the arch's either way, since if not using the patch/treasures file, they are just unused arch's and shouldn't harm anything (but i'll need to look more closely and make sure that is the case). From mwedel at scruz.net Sun Dec 24 15:21:34 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: NPC communication, was Re: [CF-Devel] Re: Info for Gods. References: <000001c069bb$a44ec380$9d9ee23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A4668DE.76767780@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > > What we really need to do is highliting the NPC's keywords as they > appear in his speech. Make them bold or underlined, so that the player > knows how to continue the conversation. And if a certain keyword is > supposed to be "secret", the NPC simply doesn't mention it before - > the latter is already the case in all maps that I can recall. Now this is a good idea. It doesn't require much work (the communication interface with the client at least remains the same), yet it makes communication much easier. The way to do this would be to insert a tag or other special character into the messagein the map itself. The server wouldn't care about it, and would just pass the message along to the client untouched. It is then up to the client to do something 'intelligent' with that message. My preliminary idea would be to use underscore (_). If the client finds an underscore in the message, all information until the next underscore are highlighted. So in the following message: Can't you see I'm in pain? If pain is the keyword, the message would be: Can't you see I'm in _pain_? And then the client would underscore, highlight, bold, color change, or do whatever else special it wants with pain. The nice thing with the above scheme at least is that even if the client doesn't do anything with those underscores, the message is still readable and it still conveys the necessary information to the client. The only harder part on this (at least for the x11 client) is that if that bold/underscore needs to remain in the scrollback buffer, more work needs to be done to contain specials on that. Right now, color text has a resolution of one line for example. From peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sun Dec 24 21:48:27 2000 From: peterm at tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Re: new god intervention patch Message-ID: <200012250348.TAA12409@tesla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> In general I'd rather see stuff end up in CVS sooner than later, provided some effort at testing has been made. I think that Mark's and Jan's testing so far is probably sufficient. Then again, I won't be around to work on anything before January 2, so I don't much care if it gets in before then. PM From tanabi at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 26 15:56:22 2000 From: tanabi at bellsouth.net (Steve Conley) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Gamespy for crossfire? Message-ID: <3A491406.C6E3B939@bellsouth.net> Hey everybody; If you want to reply back to me, please make sure my email "tanabi@bellsouth.net" is included in the To/cc/whatever. I'm trying to avoid subscribing to more mailing lists, so I'm not on this one. I was wondering; do you have any plans to have something like gamespy for crossfire? I.e., an application you can run or a website you can go to, that has a list of active crossfire servers and if there are players on them? If not, I would be happy to host a crossfire gamespy server. If there was a TCP socket (i.e. not UDP) way to connect to crossfire servers and get basic status information, I could very easily make a PHP app on my webserver so people could come, and see what the various servers are doing. This way, we could also keep an active registry of all the servers that are alive and kicking as well. :-) Servers that are dead for more than X number of days will be removed. As for me ... I used to do Crossfire years ago. I've made maps and stuff, none that reached the public but several I kept for myself and anyone who drifted onto my server. I'm getting back into it, and plan to be making some maps and such. I will definitely be running a server, I can post the address here when it's done (seems a lot of the crossfire servers are in Europe; mine's in Raleigh, NC in the US, so it'll probably be zippier than the Europe servers for people in the States). Talk to you all later, Steve Conley From mwedel at scruz.net Tue Dec 26 17:03:29 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Gamespy for crossfire? References: <3A491406.C6E3B939@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3A4923C1.DD4EE8DC@scruz.net> Such a thing already exist: http://tavern.santa-clara.ca.us/metaserver.html (old one) http://crossfire.real-time.com/metaserver/ (new one) From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Wed Dec 27 03:59:18 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Non-cumulative spells??? Message-ID: <20001227115918.A22055@tukki.jyu.fi> Non cumulative spells (can only be casted once, or atleast has effect only on first cast) are ok and needed for protection type spells. BUT: strength and armour spells allowed a big wizard to get his strength up to 30 and advance his/her phys skill. It seems this is no longer possible (atleats on MiDS server). As wizards have low strength by nature, lot of areas become unsolveable to wizards, or really really really hard to solve, if you cannot pump up your strength. And as people tend to play crossfire unparty-like, there's often no help from barbarians available. As there's no such area as "no phys area" as there is "no spells area" magic casters are have a huge disadvantage with this modification. -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From andi.vogl at gmx.net Wed Dec 27 13:55:00 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Non-cumulative spells In-Reply-To: <20001227115918.A22055@tukki.jyu.fi> Message-ID: <000001c0703e$e6adb180$5f9ae23e@kyle> Pertti Karppinen wrote: > Non cumulative spells (can only be casted once, or atleast has effect > only on first cast) are ok and needed for protection type spells. > BUT: strength and armour spells allowed a big wizard to get his strength > up to 30 and advance his/her phys skill. It seems this is no longer > possible (atleats on MiDS server). This is no longer possible indeed, and for good reason IMHO: Pushing Str to 30 and armour to 99% doesn't seem acceptible to me, especially not for wizards. > As wizards have low strength by nature, lot of > areas become unsolveable to wizards, or really really really hard to > solve, if you cannot pump up your strength. You can still pump your strenght via equipment: like rings, enchanted weapons etc.. - temporarily, when you need it. Do you think that wearing all those wizard rings/amulets/robes PLUS boosting Str 30/ armour 99% is fair? I think that isn't being a wizard, that is being a wizard and a babarian all at once. Wizards are supposed to rely on spellcraft rather than physical power, at least for lower levels. Lateron, a character can easily advance in any skill. A babarian doesn't have the ability to boost his Wis/Pow either, although he could make good use of that. > And as people tend to play crossfire unparty-like, there's often no help > from barbarians available. > As there's no such area as "no phys area" as there is "no spells area" magic > casters are have a huge disadvantage with this modification. It is true that most people play unparty-like. That is the reason why we try not to put any restrictions on character development. Still, after all, there is a point where I agree with you: For a long time (this is unrelated to PR) I always had the feeling that melee-style characters have a little bit of an easier time than spellcasters. But the question is: How can we help the wizard without helping fighters at the same time? Non-cumulative strenght/armour spells don't look like a good solution to me. Most fighters use protection/stats spells as well, at lower magic levels of course - but usually that doesn't even make much difference. We could, for example, make those spell-effects more level-dependant. But then again we would not help the low-level wizards although they would need it most. On the other hand, due to PR, there *are* situations in the game where wizards are better off than fighters (though maybe more rare than vice versa). Killing with spellcraft from distance comes in very handy when you lack the resistances for melee. For example: At overall lvl 50 I did not manage to kill a hoard of anchient blue dragons (elec) by other means than fire spells. Andreas V. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Wed Dec 27 14:04:52 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: [CF List] Re: make depend In-Reply-To: <3A483223.82F5E70E@scruz.net> Message-ID: <000101c07040$4798fbc0$5f9ae23e@kyle> Mark W. wrote: > Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO wrote: > > > I seem to have problem installing from source > > crossfire. > > > > make depend is failing because of to much recurssion? > > > > Weird. > > > > /usr/include/unistd.h:305: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > > /usr/include/unistd.h:311: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > > [...] > > You can ignore the make depend errors. > > I believe the problem is really in with the new versions of glibc > (and/or makedepend not dealing correctly with it), and nothing to do > with crossfire. > > It seems that even with those errors, make depend still works OK, and > make depend isn't necessary anyways for comilation. I just wanted to add that I get the exact same errors on make depend, since the day I upgraded to SuSE Linux 7.0. Like Mark mentioned, my first reaction was skipping the make depend. And that did not cause any trouble for compiling. Still, these millions of "recursion too deep"-messages are very irritating, nasty and ugly. If anyone knows an easy way to fix make depend and kill that bug, please do it :-) Andreas V. From mwedel at scruz.net Wed Dec 27 15:48:03 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] RE: [CF List] Re: make depend References: <000101c07040$4798fbc0$5f9ae23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A4A6393.760E68BA@scruz.net> > I just wanted to add that I get the exact same errors on make depend, > since the day I upgraded to SuSE Linux 7.0. > Like Mark mentioned, my first reaction was skipping the make depend. > And that did not cause any trouble for compiling. > > Still, these millions of "recursion too deep"-messages are very > irritating, nasty and ugly. > If anyone knows an easy way to fix make depend and kill that bug, > please do it :-) A cause of a lot of them is the block of: #define stdin stdin #define stdout stdout #define stderr stderr in stdio.h I just put an #if 0 /#endif block around those, and that helps out a lot. Apparantly, glibc does that for c89/c99 standards (or so the comment claims), but make depend really doesn't like it. I haven't seen any ill effects of doing that. From mwedel at scruz.net Wed Dec 27 16:01:27 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Non-cumulative spells References: <000001c0703e$e6adb180$5f9ae23e@kyle> Message-ID: <3A4A66B7.7538DDB4@scruz.net> Andreas Vogl wrote: > > Pertti Karppinen wrote: > > > Non cumulative spells (can only be casted once, or atleast has effect > > only on first cast) are ok and needed for protection type spells. > > > BUT: strength and armour spells allowed a big wizard to get his strength > > up to 30 and advance his/her phys skill. It seems this is no longer > > possible (atleats on MiDS server). > > This is no longer possible indeed, and for good reason IMHO: > Pushing Str to 30 and armour to 99% doesn't seem acceptible to me, > especially not for wizards. I was going to ask - it generally seems that I see on this list the wizard are already plenty powerful at higher levels (having spells of mass destruction that can be relatively safely used from a range), and that its the non spell casters thtat have more troubles. If that is really the case, then perhaps this is a good thing. > > And as people tend to play crossfire unparty-like, there's often no help > > from barbarians available. > > As there's no such area as "no phys area" as there is "no spells area" > magic > > casters are have a huge disadvantage with this modification. I will say that no spell and unholy ground may get used in too many maps. It makes perfect sense to project the treasure chambers from getting dimensioned door into, but I don't really like it as a method to make the map harder, which in too many places is done. And really, if you wanted to make things more interesting, it would be to have 'no spell effect' spaces, which would remove any and all spell effects the player has on it. This would for example remove effects from those immunity potions, but still let you cast your range spells. What no magic spaces really do is just mean you need to prepare your protection spells sooner.. Peter has talked about raising the current max stat values. If stat spells do stack, I think that becomes more a problem, because a character will then always be able to max out the stat. You could do something with diminishing returns - not sure how that would balance out. > Still, after all, there is a point where I agree with you: For a long > time (this is unrelated to PR) I always had the feeling that melee-style > characters have a little bit of an easier time than spellcasters. But the > question is: How can we help the wizard without helping fighters at the > same time? Non-cumulative strenght/armour spells don't look like a good > solution to me. Most fighters use protection/stats spells as well, at lower > magic levels of course - but usually that doesn't even make much difference. I certainly think melee characters have an easier time at lower levels. For a few reasons: 1) armour is good enough for fighters to be fairly safe against some number of things. 2) Don't need to wait for sp or grace to regen - just go in and kill. 3) Higher strength means you can haul more stuff out of the dungeon. At higher levels, #1 becomes less different, as there are good armor that spellcaster can wear and it won't affect their performance that month. #2 is still some problem, but power crystals can help out the mage, but also sp regen tends to be much faster (as you get the rings of sp regen and the like). Even without those, I believe it is faster (as is hp) because the calculation more or less goes on the basis it will take X time to fully heal no matter what your points are (so if you have 100 hp, you regen 10 times faster than if you have 10 hp). IT may not be that linear, but it similar to that. #3 is a little less relevant at higher levels as you have good weight reducing containers, spells to get back to town quickly, and less likely to haul everything out - pulling out that 25 long swords at low levels can add up to some decent money, but at high levels, you really want the good stuff and leave the junk behind. But I haven't played any high level character for quite a while (with all the changes, I've been starting new characters more often to see how those changes work out (like the race/class system for example)), and haven't really had the time to build anyone up to really high level. From leaf at real-time.com Wed Dec 27 19:30:07 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Metaserver and new public server Message-ID: First, the metaserver is online. If you'd like to subscribe(?) to the metaserver edit your share/crossfire/settings file and set the following: metaserver_notification on metaserver_server crossfire.real-time.com metaserver_port 13326 Also, the list will be available here: http://crossfire.real-time.com/metaserver Second, there is a new public server at Real Time. metalforge.real-time.com (206.10.253.60) standard port non permadeath v0.95.8 with CVS updates - Rick leaf@real-time.com From leaf at real-time.com Wed Dec 27 19:48:25 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Navar map names Message-ID: Is anyone currently working on the Navar map, more specifically the individual house maps? I ask because I was exploring that area to update the website and found 9 maps named "small house" and 8 maps named "house". Were the map names overlooked or the person(s?) involved haven't gotten that far? - Rick leaf@real-time.com -- From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Wed Dec 27 20:15:40 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Non-cumulative spells In-Reply-To: <000001c0703e$e6adb180$5f9ae23e@kyle> Message-ID: Hi Hm, i think this is a general problem. Its the question how we play. More general characters, like we yet have (my barbarian is also a great wizard), or should we disallow a fighter class char wizard spells and should we drop wizards to <25 str? (ok, thats only the last step, but should we go for more difference in this elemetal game parts?) I like both ideas, but i must warn you! I played both system (Ultima Online is like CF, Everquest is WHOLE different with many classes). The game play is absolut different. Really different classes like in Everquest have some very bad drawbacks. You can say, for real different chars you need - a much bigger party system, - much more easier fighting system (we have >20 attacktypes, PR and much more, this all must fit for different classes) - a lot of player!!!! The fighters, wizards and priests must build groups. You need a bunch of all to server the players. - and your game play is often broken (Simple: You can't do some things, so you can't play them) In Everquest, you break in dungeons in big groups, then you make a camp there, the monks run out to bring monsters in, and when the monsters appear, the fighters hack them. Then the priests come out healing, then monks run out again (they are fast and can hide, but they haven't the equipment to hack the monsters). Everquest has still some problems with his system. Some chars get weaker in higher classes, after month of playing. This has upset many players. Also, the party gaming is NOT as funny as it sounds on paper. Most times, you stay around and wait. Wait for others, wait for chatting, wait for monsters. Is real boring. CF has some more "speed" in his game. That a point i really like on CF. I find, we should ON NO PRIZE not cut the way we plays char in CF yet: as multitalent chars, which starts from different edges, with different "high" skills, but and everage "bottom skill level" for all skills. This system has some REAL big advantages. What most of you very experienced players are totaly clear, HOW you play a babarian, how you play a wizard and how you make a barbarian yet to a big wizard or a wizard to a big fighter - new player, medium experienced player will need MONTH only for knowing the way to play it!! And its a big fun, to find out, how you tweak your wizard with spells to a good fighter. Remember, its NOT easy! Its hard! Remember the fun you have and the brain work you need to do it: Big hole with big nastys in it, no easy way to cast them out. You have to melee. You must equip different armor /weapons first. Then adjust rings, amulets. Start casting the power spells, prepare the priest spells... Run in, hack the monster. Fast, fast, your spells start to wear of.. Oh! a blue one. Whats your lighting PR? time is short, now we must run back... Safe.... ok... again in or should i change back to full wizard mode and use fire? Hm, lets look for my priest level... 13... hm, i can use the avatar.... THATS fun. Now what can a wizard as "shut off class" do? He looks over his spells. He don't think about melee or avatars - he is a wizard not a fighter or priest. He cast his spells. Damn, it don't work.. chat mode: "shout any fighter online? i need some help!"... Hm, 5h in the morning, no one here.... well, lets skip this dungeon... Ok, iam not a real fair, but thats really the general path both ideas go. Thats my opinion: Make more general chars! Make a kind of proto char, which can use melee, wizard and priest or any other "main game part" on a similiar level. ( in fact, we have this yet) Now give every one of them a special ability, which change the way you can solve a set of problems. Then let them start near different pools, like we do it yet: a wizard starts weak in melee but strong in magic, priest: strong in priest/wiz lower in melee... and so on. Then design the chars in a way you got a kind of "meeting" level, where all chars have nearly same powers. Which different tools, but a wizard should be able to boost himself on fighter level and a fighter should be can use magic on very high level. Why? Well, if this level is 60 or so, you have played for month. There must be an end of powers, a char can get. There is sense to build a super quest, where you first must collect the super power item/ability/spell at level 75, thats ok. But you can't bring in with level 50 or so new abilitys and spells which change them the way you play the whole game. You must adjust all quest for all kind of chars. And all abilitys. This will be a desinger nightmare then. At a point, you will try out a different char. starting as barbarian - or using the special chars we have. Q., Fireborn and Monk for example. Thats the reason, why we have it! Hack, to play all this without make different char system will bind you for over a year to CF, when you don't play 8 hours a day. MichToen > Pertti Karppinen wrote: > > > Non cumulative spells (can only be casted once, or atleast has effect > > only on first cast) are ok and needed for protection type spells. > > > BUT: strength and armour spells allowed a big wizard to get his strength > > up to 30 and advance his/her phys skill. It seems this is no longer > > possible (atleats on MiDS server). > > This is no longer possible indeed, and for good reason IMHO: > Pushing Str to 30 and armour to 99% doesn't seem acceptible to me, > especially not for wizards. > > > As wizards have low strength by nature, lot of > > areas become unsolveable to wizards, or really really really hard to > > solve, if you cannot pump up your strength. > > You can still pump your strenght via equipment: like rings, enchanted > weapons etc.. - temporarily, when you need it. Do you think that wearing > all those wizard rings/amulets/robes PLUS boosting Str 30/ armour 99% is > fair? > I think that isn't being a wizard, that is being a wizard and a babarian > all at once. > > Wizards are supposed to rely on spellcraft rather than physical power, > at least for lower levels. Lateron, a character can easily advance in > any skill. > A babarian doesn't have the ability to boost his Wis/Pow either, > although he could make good use of that. > > > And as people tend to play crossfire unparty-like, there's often no help > > from barbarians available. > > As there's no such area as "no phys area" as there is "no spells area" > magic > > casters are have a huge disadvantage with this modification. > > It is true that most people play unparty-like. That is the reason why we > try not to put any restrictions on character development. > > Still, after all, there is a point where I agree with you: For a long > time (this is unrelated to PR) I always had the feeling that melee-style > characters have a little bit of an easier time than spellcasters. But the > question is: How can we help the wizard without helping fighters at the > same time? Non-cumulative strenght/armour spells don't look like a good > solution to me. Most fighters use protection/stats spells as > well, at lower > magic levels of course - but usually that doesn't even make much > difference. > > We could, for example, make those spell-effects more level-dependant. > But then again we would not help the low-level wizards although they > would need it most. > > On the other hand, due to PR, there *are* situations in the game where > wizards are better off than fighters (though maybe more rare than > vice versa). Killing with spellcraft from distance comes in very handy > when you lack the resistances for melee. For example: At overall lvl 50 > I did not manage to kill a hoard of anchient blue dragons (elec) by other > means than fire spells. With priest level 10-15, a avatar of sorig, you can. Ok, we can say: See, thats a broken rule, now everyone can kill... Nope. I need month of month to find out all this tricks. Also, when you tell it minor experienced players, the game play is often to complex for them. Just to get the skills to play this, is a game in the game. From andi.vogl at gmx.net Thu Dec 28 03:22:12 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Navar map names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c070af$ac7c7840$7798e23e@kyle> Rick Tanner wrote: > Is anyone currently working on the Navar map, more specifically the > individual house maps? Nope I didn't. And I seem to be the only currently active map-maker. > I ask because I was exploring that area to update the website and found 9 > maps named "small house" and 8 maps named "house". > > Were the map names overlooked or the person(s?) involved haven't gotten > that far? I guess you mean that the entrances, the little houses one has to apply to get on the maps - those are often called "small house" and "house". The indoor maps themselves are mostly on "navar_city/city1houses" and "navar_city/city1houses2". What you complain about is that all these buildings called "(small) house" are irritating and boring right? Yes, I agree, it is boring. Whole Navar is somewhat boring. Except for the shops and about three nice dungeons almost nobody ever plays in Navar. Well... when we have a new editor, especially one for windows, these kinda things might get better ;) Andreas V. From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Thu Dec 28 07:36:54 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Non-cumulative spells In-Reply-To: <000001c0703e$e6adb180$5f9ae23e@kyle>; from andi.vogl@gmx.net on Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 08:55:00PM +0100 References: <20001227115918.A22055@tukki.jyu.fi> <000001c0703e$e6adb180$5f9ae23e@kyle> Message-ID: <20001228153654.A15961@tukki.jyu.fi> On Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 08:55:00PM +0100, Andreas Vogl wrote: > Pertti Karppinen wrote: > > > Non cumulative spells (can only be casted once, or atleast has effect > > only on first cast) are ok and needed for protection type spells. > > > BUT: strength and armour spells allowed a big wizard to get his strength > > up to 30 and advance his/her phys skill. It seems this is no longer > > possible (atleats on MiDS server). > > This is no longer possible indeed, and for good reason IMHO: > Pushing Str to 30 and armour to 99% doesn't seem acceptible to me, > especially not for wizards. > > > As wizards have low strength by nature, lot of > > areas become unsolveable to wizards, or really really really hard to > > solve, if you cannot pump up your strength. > > You can still pump your strenght via equipment: like rings, enchanted > weapons etc.. - temporarily, when you need it. Do you think that wearing > all those wizard rings/amulets/robes PLUS boosting Str 30/ armour 99% is > fair? > I think that isn't being a wizard, that is being a wizard and a babarian > all at once. OK. So basically we just then neutered wizards. There are a lot of quests and maps in the game now, that are only playable with hack'n'slash style. No spells every where on a map makes it impossible to wizard to get through. And a lot of those great things you can use to pumb up your 17 maximux str towars 30 are on maps that have this restriction (no spells and unholy ground). If consensus is that strength spell (constitution and armour don't need to be cumulative) is to be left uncumulative, we need maps for wizards only, that have no-melee floors!!! Otherwise wizards are a big joke. They can get to 100+ level, but they cannot get best equipment with the str 17. Try mwizard for example: corridoor of skulls is way easy to clear with spells only ... NOT! Then a barbarian can easily run through it hacking and slashing skulls as he goes. And try killing Fonz and Oppie with str 17. Way easy to kill with spells :) -- BSc. Pertti Karppinen |'Bridge Players | Systems Designer, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland | Do | http://www.iki.fi/~pjka/ | Office : +358 14 260 2088 | It | HAM: OH6KTR QTH: KP22UF | Cellular: +358 40 564 0786 | on the Table' | From leaf at real-time.com Thu Dec 28 11:05:45 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Navar map names In-Reply-To: <000001c070af$ac7c7840$7798e23e@kyle> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Andreas Vogl wrote: > I guess you mean that the entrances, the little houses one has to apply > to get on the maps - those are often called "small house" and "house". > The indoor maps themselves are mostly on "navar_city/city1houses" and > "navar_city/city1houses2". Yes, that is correct. > What you complain about is that all these buildings called "(small) house" > are irritating and boring right? Yes, I agree, it is boring. Whole Navar > is somewhat boring. Except for the shops and about three nice dungeons > almost nobody ever plays in Navar. > Well... when we have a new editor, especially one for windows, these > kinda things might get better ;) I was just hoping to avoid having a navigation area on the website look like this: [House] [House] [House] [Small House] [Small House] [Small House] - Rick Tanner leaf@real-time.com From mwedel at scruz.net Thu Dec 28 14:55:48 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:36 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Navar map names References: Message-ID: <3A4BA8D4.DE1E1B65@scruz.net> Is there actually anything of any interest in all those small houses? I know it may be nice to fill out towns with houses with people, but most towns have lots of houses, and if they are just empty/boring houses, I don't see much point to it. In fact, it can actually be quite annoying if you are actually looking for something to adventure. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Thu Dec 28 17:14:02 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Navar map names In-Reply-To: <3A4BA8D4.DE1E1B65@scruz.net> Message-ID: > > Is there actually anything of any interest in all those small houses? > > I know it may be nice to fill out towns with houses with people, > but most towns > have lots of houses, and if they are just empty/boring houses, I > don't see much > point to it. > > In fact, it can actually be quite annoying if you are actually > looking for > something to adventure. Very true. CF has a lifeless world and city style, there are no creatures NPCs aus there. If you then run in a house, which is nothing more than a dummy, this feeling will grow. I think this should be a task in the area editor/maps, to make this maps more "living". Perhaps, peter has said it somewhere in the list, we should use random maps. But not stupid random maps, where you enter a house with random bookcases and tables in it. This will show not very better. I prefer some kind of "mini" quests. A set of proto quests, using random maps and get attached randomly to this little houses. This will make it worth to search them! So a quest should be for newbies. For example a npc, telling you: "plase clear out my cellar. There is a chest with a sword+2, poisoing in it. You can get it as reward if you can find it." Give this maps a high refresh, like 1 hour and we can avoid the problem, that to much newbies try out the higher quest in search of something interesting. Michael From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Thu Dec 28 17:35:10 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] leprose Message-ID: hi The xpm/png for the disease leprose (the skin you drop to floor) is broken and set to blank.111.png/xpm. MichToen From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Thu Dec 28 19:07:06 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Sorig Message-ID: Hi I never think about it, but i build now a new char and play a bit. I changed to god Sorig and then i see that sorig is now pretty useless. Because the PR system, protection spells are now VERY important. I think no one want play without them. Well, a sorig follower can't cast a single protection spell. I really love sorig. He was a nice strong god, without big advantages and without big drawbacks. Because prot. spells are not so useful before PR, no one notice that they are denied. Remember his drawbacks he still has - no enemy race - he don't uncurse! (major drawback for uncurse stat potions until you max out) - he don't restore depletion. (i think so? or it is very hard?) Also, some spells are denied or harder. So, Sorig is really not to powerful. His good powers are: - good avatar - good special spells in high levels (i think we can forget this as good power until you lost them when you change gods. Its not the big deal to change gods twice to collect spells). - elec prot/immun as power As you see, he is balanced in my opinion. Also, he is a perfect alternative to mostrai for more experienced players. But with protection spell denied you can now forget him, he is really not longer a alternative. So i prefer: - make prot. spells not denied, make them perhaps harder to cast (more grace) This will bring him to old game balance. MichToen From andi.vogl at gmx.net Fri Dec 29 07:55:14 2000 From: andi.vogl at gmx.net (Andreas Vogl) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Sorig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c0719e$fa2257a0$bea1e23e@kyle> Michael T. wrote: > I never think about it, but i build now a new char and play a bit. > I changed to god Sorig and then i see that sorig is now pretty useless. > > Because the PR system, protection spells are now VERY important. > I think no one want play without them. Well, a sorig follower can't cast > a single protection spell. > I really love sorig. He was a nice strong god, without big advantages > and without big drawbacks. Because prot. spells are not so useful befor > PR, no one notice that they are denied. > > Remember his drawbacks he still has > - no enemy race This is not too much of a drawback... > - he don't uncurse! (major drawback for uncurse stat potions until you > max out) ...but that one is nasty. Sorig followers always need a second char to uncurse potions. A pain indeed, and no point (-> second char does the job). I think the effect is caused by denied turning? Maybe we should make all gods able to uncurse potions, independant from any denied spellpaths? > - he don't restore depletion. (i think so? or it is very hard?) Not sure. And not too important. > Also, some spells are denied or harder. Denied turning: no holy word. > So, Sorig is really not to powerful. His good powers are: > - good avatar > - good special spells in high levels (i think we can forget this as > good power until you lost them when you change gods. Its not the big > deal to change gods twice to collect spells). You're wrong on this one. Players loose all god-given spells on conversion. This has been done quite some time ago. However, diseases have been toned down and should not be the ultimate advantage anymore. > - elec prot/immun as power This still *is* Sorigs main advantage. Sorigs holy possession grants elec +95% (adding on equipment!). It's freakin hard to get elec res. 95% by equipment, and potions don't surpass 90%. Elec is not as important as fire/cold, but think of places like the lair of ancient blue dragons... > As you see, he is balanced in my opinion. Also, he is a perfect > alternative to mostrai for more experienced players. > > But with protection spell denied you can now forget him, he is really > not longer a alternative. > > So i prefer: > - make prot. spells not denied, make them perhaps harder to cast > (more grace) > > This will bring him to old game balance. Hm, hm... "old game balance"? - Sorig used to be unbalanced. =) However, I think setting sorig to "repelled protection" might be reasonable. The first day with PR, I switched to Mostrai - due to protection spells. And due to Mostrais blessing/holy possession (fire +30). So there is some truth in Michael's point. Generally about Gods: The new god intervention code is in cvs. The god's arches have been split up into different "property arches" like avatar, granted spells/items, etc. All prerequesites for gods re-balancing seem to be completed now. Andreas V. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Fri Dec 29 12:37:38 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Sorig In-Reply-To: <000701c0719e$fa2257a0$bea1e23e@kyle> Message-ID: > Michael T. wrote: > > > I never think about it, but i build now a new char and play a bit. > > I changed to god Sorig and then i see that sorig is now pretty useless. > > > > Because the PR system, protection spells are now VERY important. > > I think no one want play without them. Well, a sorig follower can't cast > > a single protection spell. > > I really love sorig. He was a nice strong god, without big advantages > > and without big drawbacks. Because prot. spells are not so useful befor > > PR, no one notice that they are denied. > > > > Remember his drawbacks he still has > > - no enemy race > > This is not too much of a drawback... > > > - he don't uncurse! (major drawback for uncurse stat potions until you > > max out) > > ...but that one is nasty. Sorig followers always need a second char to > uncurse potions. A pain indeed, and no point (-> second char does > the job). > I think the effect is caused by denied turning? > Maybe we should make all gods able to uncurse potions, independant > from any denied spellpaths? Yes, that is also a point. Because you can use a "exploit", a 2nd char to uncurse the potions or giving them to other players, this one is not a character drawback, its a player one, costing him nothing more than nerves and time. > > - he don't restore depletion. (i think so? or it is very hard?) > > Not sure. And not too important. Sorig can restore. This bring me to the thought, why i think not. I remember old days, where sometimes sorig don't restore. Also praying for 10 minutes don't work. But changing to mostrai and praying 30 sec work all times. I remember this happens 2-3 times, because i often play sorig when i use a fighter class char. > > Also, some spells are denied or harder. > > Denied turning: no holy word. > > > So, Sorig is really not to powerful. His good powers are: > > - good avatar > > - good special spells in high levels (i think we can forget this as > > good power until you lost them when you change gods. Its not the big > > deal to change gods twice to collect spells). > > You're wrong on this one. Players loose all god-given spells on > conversion. > This has been done quite some time ago. > However, diseases have been toned down and should not be the ultimate > advantage anymore. Ah ok, i was off from high level priest spells since some time. > > - elec prot/immun as power > > This still *is* Sorigs main advantage. Sorigs holy possession grants > elec +95% (adding on equipment!). It's freakin hard to get elec res. 95% > by equipment, and potions don't surpass 90%. > Elec is not as important as fire/cold, but think of places like the lair > of ancient blue dragons... Well, the background for the nice elec. res. of him is the fact, that you has always a good protection from elec with reflection. Reflection allow immunity when you don't move, sorig allows moving - what i find a good way to handle it. > > As you see, he is balanced in my opinion. Also, he is a perfect > > alternative to mostrai for more experienced players. > > > > But with protection spell denied you can now forget him, he is really > > not longer a alternative. > > > > So i prefer: > > - make prot. spells not denied, make them perhaps harder to cast > > (more grace) > > > > This will bring him to old game balance. > > Hm, hm... "old game balance"? - Sorig used to be unbalanced. =) Grin, nope. Devourers and other was unbalanced to the fact you echant weapons from them without getting a "of xxx", making mutli enchanting possible. Now, also Sorig gives "of sorig". > However, I think setting sorig to "repelled protection" might be > reasonable. Thats should be good. > The first day with PR, I switched to Mostrai - due to protection > spells. And due to Mostrais blessing/holy possession (fire +30). > So there is some truth in Michael's point. > > > Generally about Gods: The new god intervention code is in cvs. > The god's arches have been split up into different "property arches" > like avatar, granted spells/items, etc. > All prerequesites for gods re-balancing seem to be completed now. > > > Andreas V. > _______________________________________________ > crossfire-devel mailing list > crossfire-devel@lists.real-time.com > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/crossfire-devel > From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Fri Dec 29 18:43:40 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] some bugs and exploits Message-ID: Hi I played some for testing the dx client and i find some exploits and bugs. Exploits: - Not allow non peaceful mode as default on servers There are to many chields out playing CF with 12-13. They like pk, because they try out the world. But this will mess up many people. Because the who command, you know where every one is. Simply run in the dungeon, wait for some fight the char doing and then attack. Even as level 20, a level 10 Qeutzal killed me as i stay there with 25 hp left. - Stealing Player can steal from players. We should remove this. One player simply create a thief, bring him in 1/2 hours to some level and then he run in every player in town and steal from him. He got alot of items, rings and values. You can't do anything against it when he blocks a doors. You can't attack him, etc. I know from Ultima Online how worse it is, to include true and playable player to player stealing in the game. We should remove it for 1.0 and then one should include a proper system (perhaps mark criminal, etc.) for a real thief system. - anti-magical in towns and "non-combat" areas Todays "using brainless magic in town" is, to drop on every tile a earth wall. It was an old discussion point: Don't let us allow magic in town. There are no fights, etc. So, we can avoid spell pking and abusings. Bugs: - Leaving ruins to water bug I try it out, if you play with many and run in/out of the ruins and in/out the magic shop there, you can force the bug. We should setup a server perhaps marks tavern and flood him with 3-4 players running like mad through all the maps. It should work. - Monsters targeting bug Some times, i run in a dungeon and the monsters lost track of me. No one using only physical attack run to me. Sometimes attacking work, most times not. Relogin works, then they attack again. I find this sometimes in pupland power plant, attacking the Oleg-Hai (ok, runnning away from him :). - Leprose Like i say, the leprose disease has a false face for the pieces falling to ground. blank.111.png. From michael.toennies at nord-com.net Fri Dec 29 21:00:31 2000 From: michael.toennies at nord-com.net (Michael Toennies) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] apply bug Message-ID: Hi If you apply a sword and put it in a container, is it still apllied in there. It should not be. MichToen From dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au Sat Dec 30 04:33:29 2000 From: dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au (dnh@hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au) Date: Thu Jan 13 17:59:37 2005 Subject: [CF-Devel] Finally back Message-ID: Hello everyone, at last I have returned from my holidays, now I shall attempt to reply to a few emails. Cumulative spells. I think peterm has made some great changes with the single cast limit on spells. I personally feel wizards have it alot easier in CF at the moment. Once a player has all the major spells, they can tackle anything and usually with little pain, while a fighter has a heck of a time with quite a few monster up until very high levels. A wizard doesn't have to rely on items, speed makes up for the armour, and the spells don't really require close proximity. A wizard can get past dragons and demilich alot faster than a warrior for a long long time. For instance, although I know everyone hates it, the dragon hanger is really only useful for wizards, awhile ago, I could bring in 4 potions of fire and ice, 10 or so magic power potions, then get 4 levels in a few minutes (with mostrai more.. cause you can wipe out demilich fast). Warriors simply can't do that. Now with Qs having armour bonus, this change wont even bother them, the only race that really looks in trouble is the fireborn, which sucks already. Navar maps. I agree with the general populace ;), I hate single houses.. they are really boring and you don't get anything out of them. Monster are far apart and of a low level, NPCs are few and far between, and items are usually beyond sucky, for example I know one house, where the final monster is a chinese dragon, which is hidden behind a wall. After dieing once killing it, I get the treasure... and it is a single crown =|, with nothing special =(. Sorig. This is my ball park, this is information I have been wanting to hear for quite sometime folks. Please see -> http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~dnh/crossfire_pantheon.html, I have been trying to iron out these unbalances for along time. I agree with both AV and michtoen, sorig is slightly less off with PR now, I can fix it though. I thought perhaps we could give sorig followers +50 general resistance to elec? Sorig now doesn't get disease, but instead gets some serious firepower, most importantly divine shock, a ball lightning spell that does god power damage... ouch! at level 110 I cleaned out half of the well in brest with one spell =), this spell saves alot of time for sorig users and should make them quite fearsome point gainers (although divine shock is useless in one on one combat with players...). I am open to any suggestions on anything regarding gods =). AV i shall make turning repelled instead. In regards to this topic, Rick could you put a link to my new pantheon so that players who aren't on this list can look and send suggestions? dnh From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 12 12:51:24 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:51 2005 Subject: [CF List] Search feature on Website and Mailing lists Message-ID: A UdmSearch upgrade required a re-index of the mailing lists and website. This process has been running for 4 days now and is about 30% done. :-( So, if you try to use the search feature, you will encounter query errors. I will send out a followup when the re-index is complete. - Rick Tanner leaf@real-time.com From root at garbled.net Thu Dec 14 13:57:38 2000 From: root at garbled.net (Tim Rightnour) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:51 2005 Subject: [CF List] Crossfire under NetBSD, and a problem. Message-ID: I have recently ported the newest versions of the client and server to NetBSD. (also, FYI, I have been porting all versions of crossfire to NetBSD for the last 4-5 years, so NetBSD really should be listed on the "runs on the OS's") A link to the packages can be found at: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/games/crossfire-cli/README.html ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/games/crossfire-srv/README.html Now for the problem: When I load the client (either the GTK or the Xlib one, it doesn't matter) key bindings do not work. It loads the keybindings from my "keys" file, and under the GTK client, shows them in the keybindings dialog, but they are not functional, unless I click on each binding, and issue "bind" or manually retype all the bindings in. In addition, if I do sit down and retype all the bindings, they do not save, and next time I load the client, they are all gone. Typing "unbind" with no arguments, shows me the same list, of keys that are supposedly bound, but do not work. This happens on both my native NetBSD crossfire server, and when I connect to other public crossfire servers. Any explanations or help would be appreciated. (I have made no changes to the source itself, only patches to the Makefile and configure script) --- Tim Rightnour NetBSD: Free multi-architecture OS http://www.netbsd.org/ NetBSD supported hardware database: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/cgi-bin/hw.cgi From pjka at cc.jyu.fi Sat Dec 16 01:53:25 2000 From: pjka at cc.jyu.fi (Pertti Karppinen (OH6KTR)) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:52 2005 Subject: [CF List] png tool worth considering In-Reply-To: ; from root@garbled.net on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:57:38PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20001216095325.A4675@tukki.jyu.fi> I just saw an announce for a new version of a tool that might be useful for the crossfiren png craphics, namely the pngcrush. http://pmt.sourceforge.net/pngcrush/ From leaf at real-time.com Tue Dec 19 18:46:32 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:52 2005 Subject: [CF List] Website Followup Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I have finished importing and updating the website in DreamWeaver. I went ahead and published it now because I was running into to much "double work" where I would make a change on the site in NetObjects, then make the same change to the site in DreamWeaver... The look of the site hasn't changed that much, but the directory stucture and URL's have. The next step for me is to start updating the content for the changes that were made in v0.95.8 which include Partial Resistence, Races & Classes, New god spells, New god Info and some other things I saw get committed to CVS (entrance fee for Lord of Rings in Santo Dominion, etc.) to name a few. Any suggestions for the site or if you encounter any problems viewing the site, please let me know. -- From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Mon Dec 25 23:28:45 2000 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:52 2005 Subject: [CF List] make depend Message-ID: <3A482C8D.74B2005C@mrbrklyn.com> I seem to have problem installing from source crossfire. make depend is failing because of to much recurssion? Weird. /usr/include/unistd.h:305: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:311: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:315: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:319: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:321: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:338: macro or `#include' recursion too deep /usr/include/unistd.h:340: macro or `#include' recursion too deep In file included from ../include/includes.h:76, from ../include/global.h:36, from c_wiz.c:35: /usr/include/unistd.h:967: macro or `#include' recursion too deep In file included from ../include/includes.h:93, from ../include/global.h:36, and such......... It's installed in this directory /home/ruben/crossfire/crossfire-0.95.7 The config command was: ./configure --mandir /usr/local/man --datadir /usr/games/crossfire --bindir /usr/local/bin which seemed reasonable enough. I could never get this thing to compile - And I love this game! -- Brooklyn Linux Solutions http://www.mrbrklyn.com http://www.brooklynonline.com 1-718-382-5752 From mwedel at scruz.net Mon Dec 25 23:52:35 2000 From: mwedel at scruz.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:52 2005 Subject: [CF List] Re: make depend References: <3A482C8D.74B2005C@mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <3A483223.82F5E70E@scruz.net> You can ignore the make depend errors. I believe the problem is really in with the new versions of glibc (and/or makedepend not dealing correctly with it), and nothing to do with crossfire. It seems that even with those errors, make depend still works OK, and make depend isn't necessary anyways for comilation. Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO wrote: > > I seem to have problem installing from source > crossfire. > > make depend is failing because of to much recurssion? > > Weird. > > /usr/include/unistd.h:305: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:311: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:315: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:319: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:321: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:338: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > /usr/include/unistd.h:340: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > In file included from ../include/includes.h:76, > from ../include/global.h:36, > from c_wiz.c:35: > /usr/include/unistd.h:967: macro or `#include' recursion too deep > In file included from ../include/includes.h:93, > > from ../include/global.h:36, > > and such......... > > It's installed in this directory > /home/ruben/crossfire/crossfire-0.95.7 > > The config command was: > > ./configure --mandir /usr/local/man --datadir /usr/games/crossfire > --bindir /usr/local/bin > > which seemed reasonable enough. > > I could never get this thing to compile - And I love this game! > > -- > Brooklyn Linux Solutions > http://www.mrbrklyn.com > http://www.brooklynonline.com > > 1-718-382-5752 From leaf at real-time.com Wed Dec 27 19:38:09 2000 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Jan 13 18:03:52 2005 Subject: [CF List] Metaserver and new public server (fwd) Message-ID: First, the metaserver is online. If you'd like to subscribe(?) to the metaserver edit your share/crossfire/settings file and set the following: metaserver_notification on metaserver_server crossfire.real-time.com metaserver_port 13326 Also, the list will be available here: http://crossfire.real-time.com/metaserver Second, there is a new public server at Real Time. metalforge.real-time.com (206.10.253.60) standard port non permadeath v0.95.8 with CVS updates - Rick leaf@real-time.com