From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 13:22:53 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 1 13:23:15 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-devel] Made a CVS upload error: /maps-bigworld/unlinked/mlab-devel/mlab-devel.tar.gz In-Reply-To: <433E1308.7000500@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051001182253.73884.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> If you don't want mlab then fine. I am _not_ going to change for you, just as you are _not_ going to change for me. --- Mark Wedel wrote: > Mitch Obrian wrote: > > For all other maps sans mlab I follow the map > guide. > > However mlab was started way before these, thus it > > uses the flatdirectory structure so it stays > working. > > I've seen maps break many times before, including > my > > tavern when it was uploaded to cvs originally. > > The issue is that there seems to be no work on > your part to move it into the > proper directory layout. > > If there was some progess being made in going to a > non flat structure, > wouldn't be a big deal. > > > > > Why must there be contoversy just over a file > system? > > Ask yourself the same question - why can't you fix > them so they aren't in a > flat directory. > > > > > If I can't upload my maps to CVS where do I back > them > > up to? Are they that worthless? I do a fair amount > of > > CF work in arches and non-mlab maps, could I have > > alittle slack? Why is there opposistion just > because I > > put the maps in their own flatlevel dir? > > Sourceforge and the crossfire distribution in > particular is not meant to > provide a backup service for people. > > There are standard practices for a reason. The > second exceptions start > getting made for one person, the next person shows > up and says 'well, you did it > for him, why not for me'. And figuring out what > rules to break for who then > leads to a mess of problems. > > > > > The reasoning that mlab doesn't even deserve to be > in > > CVS is very alienating, I've worked years on > theses > > maps. I work nearly constantly on maps for CF. > > I don't think I said it doesn't deserve to be in > CVS. I've just said that if > it is in CVS, it should follow proper standards. > > > > > Mlab could be intergrated into CF-proper right now > if > > I was just given the OK. If an exception to the > dir > > rule was made. > > > > I though after being involved in CF this long the > > controversy was over and I could develop as a > regular > > without asking about every change. I uploaded mlab > so > > it would be with CF, so if my computers go down my > > years of work are not lost. Sure one can say "go > find > > some other place to back up to" but... that's > > basically telling the person to screw off; their > work > > is of little value. > > Simple solution is that if you make the directory > structure follow the proper > naming, it could be an official part of the map > distribution. > > The only issue is that your completely unwilling > to do that. Some people have > even started the work to integrate your maps with > proper naming structure, but > you continue to keep going with yours (so that even > those get updated). > > Sure, we could make an exception. Or you could > just follow the rules. The > fact that your not willing to make any effort to do > so doesn't give me any > reason whatever on why I should bend the rules for > you. > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From Benjamin.Lerman at ambre.net Sat Oct 1 04:09:22 2005 From: Benjamin.Lerman at ambre.net (Benjamin Lerman) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:07:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Summon pet monster In-Reply-To: <20050930223546.GA26062@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> References: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> <20050930095717.GA27478@marelle.ambre.net> <20050930223546.GA26062@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20051001090921.GA3703@marelle.ambre.net> > If so: that probably would not be correct. According to the comment for > this function, "!new_skill" means to just unapply the old skill. > Therefore the call to apply_special(..., AP_UNAPPLY) must not be > removed. Yes, of course you're right. I realize that after sending my message. Benjamin Lerman From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 14:09:01 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:12:49 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-devel] Made a CVS upload error: /maps-bigworld/unlinked/mlab-devel/mlab-devel.tar.gz In-Reply-To: <20051001182253.73884.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051001190901.79110.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Let us free our memory of merging the rest of mlab, it just seems to become a huge discussion for whatever reasons. So have any quest ideas for azamuindo? I need someone who has a good grasp on japanese lore to give me some ideas. --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > If you don't want mlab then fine. I am _not_ going > to > change for you, just as you are _not_ going to > change > for me. > > --- Mark Wedel wrote: > > > Mitch Obrian wrote: > > > For all other maps sans mlab I follow the map > > guide. > > > However mlab was started way before these, thus > it > > > uses the flatdirectory structure so it stays > > working. > > > I've seen maps break many times before, > including > > my > > > tavern when it was uploaded to cvs originally. > > > > The issue is that there seems to be no work on > > your part to move it into the > > proper directory layout. > > > > If there was some progess being made in going to > a > > non flat structure, > > wouldn't be a big deal. > > > > > > > > Why must there be contoversy just over a file > > system? > > > > Ask yourself the same question - why can't you > fix > > them so they aren't in a > > flat directory. > > > > > > > > If I can't upload my maps to CVS where do I back > > them > > > up to? Are they that worthless? I do a fair > amount > > of > > > CF work in arches and non-mlab maps, could I > have > > > alittle slack? Why is there opposistion just > > because I > > > put the maps in their own flatlevel dir? > > > > Sourceforge and the crossfire distribution in > > particular is not meant to > > provide a backup service for people. > > > > There are standard practices for a reason. The > > second exceptions start > > getting made for one person, the next person shows > > up and says 'well, you did it > > for him, why not for me'. And figuring out what > > rules to break for who then > > leads to a mess of problems. > > > > > > > > The reasoning that mlab doesn't even deserve to > be > > in > > > CVS is very alienating, I've worked years on > > theses > > > maps. I work nearly constantly on maps for CF. > > > > I don't think I said it doesn't deserve to be in > > CVS. I've just said that if > > it is in CVS, it should follow proper standards. > > > > > > > > Mlab could be intergrated into CF-proper right > now > > if > > > I was just given the OK. If an exception to the > > dir > > > rule was made. > > > > > > I though after being involved in CF this long > the > > > controversy was over and I could develop as a > > regular > > > without asking about every change. I uploaded > mlab > > so > > > it would be with CF, so if my computers go down > my > > > years of work are not lost. Sure one can say "go > > find > > > some other place to back up to" but... that's > > > basically telling the person to screw off; their > > work > > > is of little value. > > > > Simple solution is that if you make the > directory > > structure follow the proper > > naming, it could be an official part of the map > > distribution. > > > > The only issue is that your completely unwilling > > to do that. Some people have > > even started the work to integrate your maps with > > proper naming structure, but > > you continue to keep going with yours (so that > even > > those get updated). > > > > Sure, we could make an exception. Or you could > > just follow the rules. The > > fact that your not willing to make any effort to > do > > so doesn't give me any > > reason whatever on why I should bend the rules for > > you. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! for Good > Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 1 14:15:34 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:16:33 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Summon pet monster In-Reply-To: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> References: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> Message-ID: <433EE056.70301@laposte.net> Committed your 2 patches. Just changed one call from (pseudo variables) (x)?f(a,b,c):f(a,b,d) to f(a,b,x?c:d) to not duplicate 2 similar calls Nicolas From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 1 14:38:56 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:39:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-devel] Made a CVS upload error: /maps-bigworld/unlinked/mlab-devel/mlab-devel.tar.gz In-Reply-To: <20051001190901.79110.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051001190901.79110.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <433EE5D0.1040300@laposte.net> Why don't you create a new Sourceforge project and use it to store your maps? This way you'll have storage room, cvs, and will be able to use the structure you want :) Nicolas From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 15:42:27 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 1 15:43:18 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-devel] Made a CVS upload error: /maps-bigworld/unlinked/mlab-devel/mlab-devel.tar.gz In-Reply-To: <433EE5D0.1040300@laposte.net> Message-ID: <20051001204228.89403.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> A new module would be simpler, but perhapse. --- Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Why don't you create a new Sourceforge project and > use it to store your > maps? > This way you'll have storage room, cvs, and will be > able to use the > structure you want :) > > Nicolas > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 2 22:16:31 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 2 22:17:48 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Those new guilds look fantastic. Message-ID: <20051003031631.47490.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Those new guilds look fantastic. I eagarly await the coming of said python guilds! __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From alex_sch at telus.net Mon Oct 3 01:04:01 2005 From: alex_sch at telus.net (Alex Schultz) Date: Mon Oct 3 01:05:54 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS commit: crossfire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4340C9D1.7080909@telus.net> crossfire-cvs-admin@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: >Module Name: crossfire >Committed By: cavesomething >Date: Mon Oct 3 03:29:41 UTC 2005 > >Modified Files: > crossfire: ChangeLog > crossfire/common: item.c loader.l map.c > crossfire/doc/Developers: map-technical > crossfire/include: define.h libproto.h map.h sproto.h > crossfire/server: apply.c c_object.c shop.c skill_util.c >Added Files: > crossfire/doc/Developers: shops > >Log Message: >add support for specialised shops > > Mikee and I both discovered a segfault caused here: Saving map /scorn/shops/bowshop Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. print_shop_string (m=0xafffee20, output_string=0xafffee20 "") at map.c:710 710 for (i=0; i>items[0].index; i++) { (gdb) bt #0 print_shop_string (m=0xafffee20, output_string=0xafffee20 "") at map.c:710 #1 0x080d29d9 in new_save_map (m=0x888d1d8, flag=0) at map.c:1194 #2 0x080aab16 in swap_map (map=0x888d1d8) at swap.c:166 #3 0x080aabf2 in check_active_maps () at swap.c:194 #4 0x08085429 in main (argc=13, argv=0xafffee20) at main.c:1247 (gdb) print i $13 = 0 (gdb) print items[i] Cannot access memory at address 0x0 (gdb) print items $15 = (shopitems *) 0x0 (gdb) print m->shopitems $14 = (shopitems *) 0x2e3a72 (gdb) print *m->shopitems Cannot access memory at address 0x2e3a72 Looking at this, the issue is "items" being a null pointer. Also, from what I've found, it's something perticular about the bowshop that's causing it. Also, if this helps: (gdb) up #1 0x080d29d9 in new_save_map (m=0x888d1d8, flag=0) at map.c:1194 1194 print_shop_string(m, shop); (gdb) print m $19 = (mapstruct *) 0x888d1d8 (gdb) print shop $20 = "\000\000\000\000\000\000\000\004\000\000\000\000\210S\035\b(\uffff\uffff\b\000\000\000\000\004\000\000\000\uffff7\uffff\bK\001\000\000\000\000\000\000\210\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffffU\v\b\uffff\205\uffff\b", '\0' , "\004\000\000\000\000\210S\035\b(\uffff\uffff\b\000\000\000\000\004\000\000\000\000{\uffff\bJ\001\000\000\000\000\000\000\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffffU\v\b\uffff7\uffff\b", '\0' , "\004\000\000\000\000\210S\035\b(\uffff\uffff\b\000\000\000\000\004\000\000\000\220u\uffff\bI\001\000\000\000\000\000\000\b\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffffU\v\b\000{\uffff\b", '\0' , "\004\000\000\000\000\210S\035\b(\uffff\uffff\b\000\000\000\000\004\000\000\000(\uffff\uffff\bH\001\000"... Alex Schultz From quisar at quisar.ambre.net Mon Oct 3 02:43:49 2005 From: quisar at quisar.ambre.net (Benjamin Lerman) Date: Mon Oct 3 02:45:52 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Summon pet monster In-Reply-To: <20050930095717.GA27478@marelle.ambre.net> References: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> <20050930095717.GA27478@marelle.ambre.net> Message-ID: <20051003074349.GA15632@marelle.ambre.net> Hi all, > And at least, I have a question, does there exists a way to force the > client to wear a particular holy symbol whenever possible. Right now, > whenever I change skill, even if I do not need any object to get my new > skill, my holy symbol is unapplied, which is quite a problem when the > holy symbol does a lot more than give the skill praying... Well, I find out where the problem was with this issue: there is only one slot (body_skill) to handle natural skills (any skills learned with a scroll, or any natural skills), to handle object that give skills. My advice is there should be two... I do not see any reason to be obliged to remove an amulet when you use a skill you know. I can try to modify that if there is a consensus, but then I have a slight problem... I'll have to change all the code where skill and object_skill do the same thing, because it will be needed to force not to use 2 skills at the same time and not 2 object_skills at the same time but allow 1 skill and 1 object_skill. Would this be fine? Benjamin Lerman From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 10:50:25 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 3 10:51:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS commit: crossfire In-Reply-To: <4340C9D1.7080909@telus.net> References: <4340C9D1.7080909@telus.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510030850w1140021em9e32901f80e9e0be@mail.gmail.com> On 10/3/05, Alex Schultz wrote: > Mikee and I both discovered a segfault caused here: > > Saving map /scorn/shops/bowshop > > Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. > print_shop_string (m=0xafffee20, output_string=0xafffee20 "") at map.c:710 > 710 for (i=0; i>items[0].index; i++) { > (gdb) bt > #0 print_shop_string (m=0xafffee20, output_string=0xafffee20 "") at > map.c:710 > > Looking at this, the issue is "items" being a null pointer. Also, from > what I've found, it's something perticular about the bowshop that's > causing it. Also, if this helps: I've fixed a typo in that map now, hopefully that will stop it crashing, if I am right, then the parser needs to be made more strict (to cope with errors by merely giving warnings). Also I used the wrong comparison in that for statement, which I have now fixed. I shall also look into the parser, and see if there isn't a nice way to detect malformated headers like that better, and if so discard them completely. From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Oct 3 23:44:26 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 3 23:46:10 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Summon pet monster In-Reply-To: <20051003074349.GA15632@marelle.ambre.net> References: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> <20050930095717.GA27478@marelle.ambre.net> <20051003074349.GA15632@marelle.ambre.net> Message-ID: <434208AA.1050506@sonic.net> Benjamin Lerman wrote: > Hi all, > > >> And at least, I have a question, does there exists a way to force the >>client to wear a particular holy symbol whenever possible. Right now, >>whenever I change skill, even if I do not need any object to get my new >>skill, my holy symbol is unapplied, which is quite a problem when the >>holy symbol does a lot more than give the skill praying... > > > Well, I find out where the problem was with this issue: there is only > one slot (body_skill) to handle natural skills (any skills learned with a > scroll, or any natural skills), to handle object that give skills. > > My advice is there should be two... I do not see any reason to be > obliged to remove an amulet when you use a skill you know. > > I can try to modify that if there is a consensus, but then I have a > slight problem... I'll have to change all the code where skill and > object_skill do the same thing, because it will be needed to force not to use > 2 skills at the same time and not 2 object_skills at the same time but > allow 1 skill and 1 object_skill. I think you really need to set up 2 slots for a proper solution (body_item_skill and body_natural_skill or the like) and not make body_skill be two slots. Doing the later is completely the wrong approach, and was one of the things that the body_... stuff was meant to prevent. Such a change would require changing all the natural skills to use the other slot, but that wouldn't be that hard (just an archetype update). But there are also some other possible considerations - I think you'd want to make sure that a character doesn't have the same skill equipped through both methods (holy symbol and actual praying skill) - I think that may cause some issues - probably more see with the arcane skills. Also, every place that checks to see if the skill is already ready would need to be updated, but that would have to be done regardless (I'm pretty sure that that code checkes the pl->ranges[range_skill] - so you'd probably need to add a new range slot (just like the body stuff above) and update all the code to look for it. In fact, I'm pretty sure your proposed solution won't work just for that reason - even if I have two skill slots, you'd get this scenario - I equip holy symbol, so range_skill is the holy symbol. Then I use some other (natural) skill. the holy symbol is still equipped, but now range_skill is that other skill (say disarm traps). When I go to cast the spell, the range_skill isn't appropriate so it goes and finds something to equip for me. All this said, one could make the case that having only 1 skill equipped at a time, regardless of natural or item, is a play balance limitation. A case could also be made that perhaps things like talismans should share the amulet spot, lock picks require unequipping your weapon, etc (eg, skill items shouldn't have their own slot, but rather use one of the normal body locations of characters - that after all actually makes even more sense.) - Can't really pick a lock holding a long sword and shield. From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Oct 3 23:55:03 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 3 23:55:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS commit: crossfire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43420B27.6040709@sonic.net> > *************** > *** 1190,1199 **** > */ > if (m->difficulty) fprintf(fp,"difficulty %d\n", m->difficulty); > if (m->region) fprintf(fp,"region %s\n", m->region->name); > ! if (m->shopgreed) { > print_shop_string(m, shop); > fprintf(fp,"shopitems %s\n", shop); > } > if (m->shopmin) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %d\n", m->shopmin); > if (m->shopmax) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %d\n", m->shopmax); > if (m->shoprace) fprintf(fp,"shoprace %s\n", m->shoprace); > --- 1190,1200 ---- > */ > if (m->difficulty) fprintf(fp,"difficulty %d\n", m->difficulty); > if (m->region) fprintf(fp,"region %s\n", m->region->name); > ! if (m->shopitems) { > print_shop_string(m, shop); > fprintf(fp,"shopitems %s\n", shop); > } > + if (m->shopgreed) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %f\n", m->shopgreed); > if (m->shopmin) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %d\n", m->shopmin); > if (m->shopmax) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %d\n", m->shopmax); Is that code there really correct? It seems you are saving shopgreed as the field name when you are actually saving shopmin and shopmax. From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 00:07:28 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 4 00:08:12 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-cvs] CVS commit: crossfire In-Reply-To: <43420B27.6040709@sonic.net> References: <43420B27.6040709@sonic.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510032207x1bf61b11h7446957d1eb6755f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > > if (m->shopmin) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %d\n", m->shopmin); > > if (m->shopmax) fprintf(fp,"shopgreed %d\n", m->shopmax); > > Is that code there really correct? It seems you are saving shopgreed as the > field name when you are actually saving shopmin and shopmax. no, no it isn't, those are typos. I've fixed that now in CVS. Thanks for pointing it out. From Benjamin.Lerman at ambre.net Tue Oct 4 02:19:08 2005 From: Benjamin.Lerman at ambre.net (Benjamin Lerman) Date: Tue Oct 4 11:48:47 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Summon pet monster In-Reply-To: <434208AA.1050506@sonic.net> References: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> <20050930095717.GA27478@marelle.ambre.net> <20051003074349.GA15632@marelle.ambre.net> <434208AA.1050506@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051004071908.GA25103@marelle.ambre.net> > I think you really need to set up 2 slots for a proper solution > (body_item_skill and body_natural_skill or the like) and not make > body_skill be two slots. > > Doing the later is completely the wrong approach, and was one of the > things that the body_... stuff was meant to prevent. Sorry to have been misunderstood, but yes, that was exactly what I was suggesting... > But there are also some other possible considerations - I think you'd want > to make sure that a character doesn't have the same skill equipped through > both methods (holy symbol and actual praying skill) - I think that may > cause some issues - probably more see with the arcane skills. Do you have more idea on what problem that may cause?? It is not very useful to have the same skill equipped twice, but I don't see how it could cause problems. > Also, every place that checks to see if the skill is already ready would > need to be updated, but that would have to be done regardless (I'm pretty > sure that that code checkes the pl->ranges[range_skill] - so you'd probably > need to add a new range slot (just like the body stuff above) and update > all the code to look for it. Ok. > All this said, one could make the case that having only 1 skill equipped > at a time, regardless of natural or item, is a play balance limitation. Well, it does not really change the balance of play having 1 or 10 skill items equipped because the change of skill item is automatic, but when some items give bonuses and you cannot use natural skill without unequipping it, it made those items nearly useless... I'll modify the code to gace x_item_skill and x_natural_skill and put the patch to sourceforge... -- Benjamin From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Tue Oct 4 12:08:43 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:09:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Diseases question Message-ID: <4342B71B.2000706@laposte.net> Hello. I fixed a bug concerning diseases that had a negative "value", but got a question concerning maxhp: according to the doc, negative means "permanent outside the host". And positive "max ticks the disease stays". So the obvious question is: what about 0? Should the disease stay permanent? Disappear right away? Asking because my fix in server/disease.c:173 may be wrong depending on the reply :) Ryo From antonoussik at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 12:21:08 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:24:30 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Diseases question In-Reply-To: <4342B71B.2000706@laposte.net> References: <4342B71B.2000706@laposte.net> Message-ID: On 04/10/05, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Hello. > > I fixed a bug concerning diseases that had a negative "value", but got a > question concerning maxhp: according to the doc, negative means > "permanent outside the host". And positive "max ticks the disease > stays". So the obvious question is: what about 0? Should the disease > stay permanent? Disappear right away? Disappear seems to make sense. (as in it has 0 time to live left) From lalo at exoweb.net Tue Oct 4 12:27:22 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:36:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] swarm spells Message-ID: sorry if this was brought up before, I seem to remember discussing it, but a quick search didn't turn up anything. So, "swarm" spells (eg bullet swarm, bullet storm) used to shoot a fair ammount of (whatever it is you're shooting), in three rows (the one you're in, and one to each side). Now they seem to shot more, in only one row, which makes them much less useful. (It's possible that they're just shooting the same ammount as before, but in a single row, so it seems to be three times as much). Was this intentional or a regression? If intentional, why? best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Tue Oct 4 12:42:03 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:42:19 2005 Subject: [crossfire] swarm spells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4342BEEB.9040102@laposte.net> It works like that for me, on Metalforge. What server are you playing on? Ryo From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Tue Oct 4 12:58:37 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:59:10 2005 Subject: [crossfire] GTK question Message-ID: <4342C2CD.6090502@laposte.net> Hello. In gx11.c, function buildLoginDialog, there is a call to: 1116 gtk_box_pack_start(GTK_BOX(vbox),hbox,TRUE,TRUE,0); followed a few lines later by: 1198 gtk_box_pack_start(GTK_BOX(vbox),hbox,FALSE,FALSE,0); with vbox & hbox the same values. The 2nd line generated a warning in the console: [ ERROR ] (Library::Gtk-CRITICAL) gtk_box_pack_start: assertion `child->parent == NULL' failed so i guess one is not exactly required :) Which one, now, i don't know, since i don't really master GTK. Ryo From eracclists at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 4 13:35:14 2005 From: eracclists at bellsouth.net (ERACC) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:39:00 2005 Subject: [crossfire] swarm spells In-Reply-To: <4342BEEB.9040102@laposte.net> References: <4342BEEB.9040102@laposte.net> Message-ID: <200510041335.14441.eracclists@bellsouth.net> On Tuesday 04 October 2005 12:42 pm Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Lalo Martins wrote: > > > So, "swarm" spells (eg bullet swarm, bullet storm) used to shoot a fair > > ammount of (whatever it is you're shooting), in three rows (the one > > you're in, and one to each side). ?Now they seem to shot more, in only > > one row, which makes them much less useful. > > It works like that for me, on Metalforge. > What server are you playing on? I only see the "three rows" with missile swarm. Try bullet swarm and meteor swarm you'll see the "single row" that was mentioned by Lalo. IIRC both bullet swarm and meteor swarm USED to work just like missile swarm does now. At this point they look more like the bolt spells than swarm spells. Plus meteor swarm can now be shot through a narrow door without worry. I can recall killing my character with it in the past by trying to shoot it through a narrow door. :-) Gene Alexander -- Linux era4.eracc.UUCP 2.6.8.1-12mdk i686 13:26:21 up 139 days, 14:07, 8 users, load average: 0.12, 0.06, 0.05 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eCS, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer & UnixWare resellers From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Tue Oct 4 14:01:01 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Tue Oct 4 14:01:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] swarm spells In-Reply-To: <200510041335.14441.eracclists@bellsouth.net> References: <4342BEEB.9040102@laposte.net> <200510041335.14441.eracclists@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4342D16D.6010603@laposte.net> > I only see the "three rows" with missile swarm. Try bullet swarm and > meteor swarm you'll see the "single row" that was mentioned by Lalo. > IIRC both bullet swarm and meteor swarm USED to work just like > missile swarm does now. At this point they look more like the bolt > spells than swarm spells. Plus meteor swarm can now be shot through a > narrow door without worry. I can recall killing my character with it > in the past by trying to shoot it through a narrow door. :-) > > Gene Alexander ha yes, indeed :) it effectively works in a single row now. Ryo From mwedel at sonic.net Wed Oct 5 00:55:42 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Wed Oct 5 00:56:32 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Summon pet monster In-Reply-To: <20051004071908.GA25103@marelle.ambre.net> References: <20050929132153.GA17271@marelle.ambre.net> <20050930095717.GA27478@marelle.ambre.net> <20051003074349.GA15632@marelle.ambre.net> <434208AA.1050506@sonic.net> <20051004071908.GA25103@marelle.ambre.net> Message-ID: <43436ADE.1020906@sonic.net> Benjamin Lerman wrote: >> But there are also some other possible considerations - I think you'd want >> to make sure that a character doesn't have the same skill equipped through >> both methods (holy symbol and actual praying skill) - I think that may >> cause some issues - probably more see with the arcane skills. > > Do you have more idea on what problem that may cause ? It is not very > useful to have the same skill equipped twice, but I don't see how it > could cause problems. Not 100% sure. My initial thought could be that some of the wizardry skills/talismans may have attunements and replusions/denials to spellpaths. Thus, if I have a talsman equipped and then explicitly ready wizardry, that talisman should become unequipped because it may be preventing me from casting the spell I want. From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 21:51:38 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Wed Oct 5 21:52:44 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Obsolete parameters in arches Message-ID: In the archetypes, the "color_fg" and "color_bg" parameters appear repeatedly. However it seems as both are now unused, except for "color_fg" being used for the magicmap color if one is not specified. Should these be removed, and "color_fg" changed to "magicmap", where appropriate? -- Andrew Fuchs From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Oct 7 13:07:39 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri Oct 7 13:09:23 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Obsolete parameters in arches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4346B96B.4080103@laposte.net> > Should these be removed, and "color_fg" changed to "magicmap", where > appropriate? Sounds good to me. Make sure though it isn't used in Java editor, or CrossEdit, or some weird program :) Ryo From kirschbaum at myrealbox.com Fri Oct 7 15:18:09 2005 From: kirschbaum at myrealbox.com (Andreas Kirschbaum) Date: Fri Oct 7 15:19:23 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unbalanced spell types In-Reply-To: <43376E6F.8070901@sonic.net> References: <20050925092456.GA27655@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> <43376E6F.8070901@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051007201808.GA7863@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> 5FJust committed the changes. I only fixed area affecting spells; bolt spells are still broken. Mark Wedel wrote: > Andreas Kirschbaum wrote: > > I think the damage should be scaled down by the monster size > > (measured in tiles it occupies). This would mean a spell deals full > > damage only if it hits the whole monster (i.e. the spell covers all > > monster tiles). > > Do note you need to cover rounding issues. In the case of the greater > demon (42 spaces), that could be a considerable amount of damage. I added this by simulating a float effect by randomly giving an additional damage point. Now on average it should do correct (fractional) damage. > And ideally, this should be handled after damage (or maybe as part of) > damage reduction from protections is taken into account, since that also > has rounding errors (but I think those might have been fixed by randomly > determing if the remainder does damage). I added the damage reduction code after all other damage calculations are done, just before the "hp -= dam" statement. Therefore no rounding issues should be present. From kirschbaum at myrealbox.com Fri Oct 7 15:51:09 2005 From: kirschbaum at myrealbox.com (Andreas Kirschbaum) Date: Fri Oct 7 15:53:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unbalanced spell types In-Reply-To: <433800DA.1070102@woosworld.net> References: <20050925092456.GA27655@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> <43376E6F.8070901@sonic.net> <433800DA.1070102@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <20051007205108.GB7863@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> Joshua Wilson wrote: > Mark Wedel wrote: > > Having the same logic for bolt spells doesn't seem unreasonable - if > > a bolt only hits 50% of the creature, it only does 50% of the > > damage. > > This is awfully dangerous sounding - given a bolt spell can NOT hit > 100% of any monster other then a 1xX monster we will end up nuking > bolt spells if we are not careful here. Of course, we should not blindly scale down by monster area. Since a bolt spell naturally hits only in one dimension, we should scale down by monster "diameter". The adjustment Mark Wedel suggested above should be (IMHO): scale down by the maximum number of tiles you could hit. This number depends on the bolt direction, so four values are necessary. For rectangular monsters this would reduce to: - horizontal bolt: scale down by width - vertical bolt: scale down by height - diagonal bolt: scale down by MIN(width, height) To reduce necessary calculations, we could add five new fields to the archetype type: scale factors for area spells and for bolt spells in all four directions. These fields would be calculated only once at archetype load time. (Unlike to the code I just committed which calculates the value each time it is accessed.) From kirschbaum at myrealbox.com Fri Oct 7 16:12:05 2005 From: kirschbaum at myrealbox.com (Andreas Kirschbaum) Date: Fri Oct 7 16:13:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unbalanced spell types In-Reply-To: <43376E6F.8070901@sonic.net> References: <20050925092456.GA27655@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> <43376E6F.8070901@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051007211205.GC7863@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> Mark Wedel wrote: > That said, one thing I said long ago and hasn't been done is the idea > that a monster (or other object) no longer needs an archetype to cover > the extent of its image. With the big image support, a hill giant can > be changed so that it is only 1 square, but still appears 2 spaces > tall. > > Likewise, demon lords could be greatly reduced in size - their full > height doesn't have to be set. So that can be done to also reduce the > footprint of many monsters, also fixing the problem to some extent. > > That said, some monsters, like dragons, can't really be fixed in that > way. I'd support the arguments of Anton Oussik that such a change (i.e. user-visible monster size is not "real" monster size) will confuse players. Therefore I don't think this feature should be implemented. Nevertheless, the code I just committed should work with such monsters: it calculates the monsters size as the number of objects present in the archetype. This is the "real" monster size (i.e. the x/y area of the monster), not the user-visible monster size (i.e. the x/z or y/z area). Therefore, the damage will be scaled down by "real" monster size, which is IMHO the right value since an area spell (IMHO) covers more x/y than z dimension. From mwedel at sonic.net Fri Oct 7 23:34:01 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Fri Oct 7 23:33:33 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Obsolete parameters in arches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43474C39.9010207@sonic.net> Andrew Fuchs wrote: > In the archetypes, the "color_fg" and "color_bg" parameters appear > repeatedly. However it seems as both are now unused, except for > "color_fg" being used for the magicmap color if one is not specified. > > Should these be removed, and "color_fg" changed to "magicmap", where > appropriate? That should be fine. Nothing should be using the monochrome bitmaps, and haven't for a long time. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 8 04:58:25 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 8 04:59:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] moving gps code In-Reply-To: <433AF52B.6070508@laposte.net> References: <433AF52B.6070508@laposte.net> Message-ID: <43479841.90500@laposte.net> Ok, moved code to Python script, cleaned server core. GPS is now type "9" (clock). It works exactly like before, no need to change anything for it to work, you'll even keep the ones you have. Obviously, if Python is not available, will revert to a clock (!) Ryo From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 8 06:03:26 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 8 06:03:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Empty bottles bug Message-ID: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> Hello. Investigating why empty bottles behve weirdly, here are some oddnesses: * the insertion of the empty bottle in the bottle sometimes fails. Empty tries to be inserted in creator's (bootle) map which is NULL for some reason. * merge_ob doesn't correctly free the item's inventory. Thus when you pick a booze bottle and already have one, they get merged and empty bottle is dropped on floor. Just a matter of using free_object2( , 1 ) to fix that, i guess. And I don't see any side effect, when merging inventory should be destroyed! * when applying a bottle, you'll get an empty bottle only if it's the last bottle. This is because apply_food calls decrease_ob, which merely decreases the item's count. Two fixes for that: apply_food checks for inventory and if there is one splits items to copy inventory and drop it. Or decrease_ob_nr splits itself, and always drops inventory when needed. Last solution would be imo the best, but not sure of side effects of that. That'd mean everytime you call it, the inventory of decreased object gets dropped. Bad for scrolls & things like that, i think. Anyone got opinions on that? Nicolas From mwedel at sonic.net Sat Oct 8 15:25:21 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sat Oct 8 15:25:50 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Empty bottles bug In-Reply-To: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> References: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> Message-ID: <43482B31.6000909@sonic.net> My personal thought is that using soemthing like other_arch (or if needed, a new field like other_arch) is probably the better way to go. This simplifies a lot of the work (problems you describe). Using the inventory to me seems like an odd way to handle this. I'm sure at some point we will get into cases where we will have items and using inventory is ambigous - is that inventory what the object should turn into when used up/destroyed, or what is really in the object? Also, I'd think that putting the empty bottles in the inventory of existing bottles will effectively increase the weight of the original. Not sure if that is intended. And I'd have to double check the examine object would do the correct thing in terms of saying the weight. OTOH, using other_arch only works if it isn't being used for something else (which at least for booze, it isn't). Other thought is use of the new key-value lists - can just do something like: on_use_item ... And just put the appropriate hook when booze and potions are applied to look for that and create the item in question. This and/or other_arch does have the problem that the object has to be an archetype. But same is true for treasurelists, so no loss there. From mwedel at sonic.net Sat Oct 8 15:25:21 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sat Oct 8 15:25:54 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Empty bottles bug In-Reply-To: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> References: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> Message-ID: <43482B31.6000909@sonic.net> My personal thought is that using soemthing like other_arch (or if needed, a new field like other_arch) is probably the better way to go. This simplifies a lot of the work (problems you describe). Using the inventory to me seems like an odd way to handle this. I'm sure at some point we will get into cases where we will have items and using inventory is ambigous - is that inventory what the object should turn into when used up/destroyed, or what is really in the object? Also, I'd think that putting the empty bottles in the inventory of existing bottles will effectively increase the weight of the original. Not sure if that is intended. And I'd have to double check the examine object would do the correct thing in terms of saying the weight. OTOH, using other_arch only works if it isn't being used for something else (which at least for booze, it isn't). Other thought is use of the new key-value lists - can just do something like: on_use_item ... And just put the appropriate hook when booze and potions are applied to look for that and create the item in question. This and/or other_arch does have the problem that the object has to be an archetype. But same is true for treasurelists, so no loss there. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 8 15:45:57 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 8 15:47:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Empty bottles bug In-Reply-To: <43482B31.6000909@sonic.net> References: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> <43482B31.6000909@sonic.net> Message-ID: <43483005.7040107@laposte.net> > Other thought is use of the new key-value lists - can just do something > like: > > on_use_item ... On yeah, great idea, didn't think of that :) I'll use key/value for item transformation, too (and i'll probably move the code to Python, as it isn't imo required for the game) Nicolas From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Oct 9 03:55:56 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun Oct 9 03:58:02 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Empty bottles bug In-Reply-To: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> References: <4347A77E.2000908@laposte.net> Message-ID: <4348DB1C.6070201@laposte.net> Ok, fixed item dropping. Now instead of using inventory for item to drop when applying, specify the archetype name with "on_use_yield" field. I fixed archetypes, and removed now unused treasure list. Right now this field is checked when applying food, poison or potion. It can be extended to other things if needed (i added the handle_apply_yield that takes care of that dropping, just call it before removing your applied item). Warning: as bottles used to have an inventory, some weird effects may be seen in servers. Empty bottles popping up, things like that. That should be fixed as bottles with inventory get used and removed. Also, I fixed a typo in an archetype name, "vial_posion" instead of "vial_poison". The archetype was committed a few days ago only, so hopefully there isn't any yet in the world (my commit will break existing archetypes that use "vial_posion"). Sorry for the inconvenience, but i think that typo needed to be fixed :) Ryo From bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com Mon Oct 10 02:35:06 2005 From: bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com (Sebastian Andersson) Date: Mon Oct 10 02:36:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Charm monster too powerful? Message-ID: <20051010073506.GD21417@hogia.net> I'm playing at a v1.6 server, am around level 28 in summoning and at the end of the chaos lair/snake pit in Lake Country at the Chaos Lord, I just need to enter the room, cast charm monster and usually I've got him charmed. I exit the map, the other charmed monsters take up all the place in the new map, so the chaos lord is killed in the first map. Unfortunally, he is killed before leaving his "hiding" room, and thus I can't get the chaos fragment. I see three things that are wrong: 1) Why is charm monster a summon spell and not a sorcery ? (On the other hand, the golems, elementals and pets are now so weak that its really, really hard to get lots of points except with charm monster). 2) Should charm monster reach so far as to his hiding room? Shouldn't it be stopped somehow by the map at least, since the hiding room is unavailable to the players? 3) Should charm monster be so successful? If one can't see the target, I think it should have a much lower chance of success. I've just recently began playing crossfire again, first time at the bigmap world, but so far most monsters have been charmed by me after at most 3 attempts with charm monster. /Sebastian -- .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: http://dum.acc.umu.se/ ( ) \_/ ( ) (o_ "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ //\ password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ V_/_ From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Mon Oct 10 04:34:16 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Mon Oct 10 04:36:27 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Charm monster too powerful? Message-ID: > I see three things that are wrong: > 1) Why is charm monster a summon spell and not a sorcery ? Don't know why, probably a historic reason somewhere :) > 2) Should charm monster reach so far as to his hiding room? Don't remember on top of my head whether charm monster has a range or not. See also 3) > 3) Should charm monster be so successful? If one can't see Upgrade server. At some point charm monster was much reduced, now you can't ever possibly charm the Chaos Lord, and success chance has been reduced. Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 14:05:33 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 10 14:06:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) In-Reply-To: <43483005.7040107@laposte.net> Message-ID: <20051010190533.22537.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I don't think it's a good idea to move all these things to python without "requiring" python (IE: when debian people ask if they need to require python for the debs we should say yes). Now for make.. python shouldn't be required. On a second note, what are the benifits to using python for object transformations? My thoughts are that we can quickly add many transformations and no recompile is needed, I assume python is greatly flexible in this instance. I think we should have python required in the packages (or atleast strongly recomended) as without it there's no banks, no mail, etc... no slots. --- Nicolas Weeger wrote: > > Other thought is use of the new key-value lists - > can just do something > > like: > > > > on_use_item ... > > On yeah, great idea, didn't think of that :) > I'll use key/value for item transformation, too (and > i'll probably move > the code to Python, as it isn't imo required for the > game) > > Nicolas > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 14:19:19 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 10 14:20:37 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me Message-ID: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Ryo banned me and tor from #crossfire because no matter how much one contributes to CF one has to fit in with the clique, be "nice" and "sociable" and accept constant art-by-committeism + the trollage by Leaf that follows when you don't (naturally, this seems to happen often enough). __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Mon Oct 10 14:24:13 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Mon Oct 10 14:24:36 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) In-Reply-To: <20051010190533.22537.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051010190533.22537.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434ABFDD.8010604@laposte.net> The rationale i see for using Python for item transformation is that it's not a required feature to play the game. Same for bank actually - you can play and do many things without the bank system. Same for gps, and everything in Python scripts. It makes the game more fun, but the core of the game does not depend on it. As for transformation "formulaes", they still are hardcoded in the archetypes, so Python doesn't enter the equation so far. Or I could use Python to let players/DMs alter ingame changes, by storing formuleas in a Python object saved on disk. Nicolas From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 10 14:41:31 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 10 14:42:36 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434AC3EB.1030305@woosworld.net> And that is your way of asking to be unbanned? Placing blame on someone else? How about looking at it as: Everyone has to follow certain rules be they developer or not, DM or not, irc op or not. Mitch Obrian wrote: > Ryo banned me and tor from #crossfire because no > matter how much one contributes to CF one has to fit > in with the clique, be "nice" and "sociable" and > accept constant art-by-committeism + the trollage by > Leaf that follows when you don't (naturally, this > seems to happen often enough). > > > > __________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > From trhyne at MIT.EDU Mon Oct 10 15:23:18 2005 From: trhyne at MIT.EDU (Vernon T Rhyne) Date: Mon Oct 10 15:24:37 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <434AC3EB.1030305@woosworld.net> References: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <434AC3EB.1030305@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <20051010162318.hnkw5q6icha8s08c@webmail.mit.edu> Quoting Joshua Wilson : > And that is your way of asking to be unbanned? > Placing blame on someone else? > > How about looking at it as: > Everyone has to follow certain rules be they developer or not, DM or > not, irc op or not. That hasn't, and will never be the case. Rule enforcement at all levels is by whim and mood, as with most clique-managed open-source communities. It's undoubtedly a major reason that the wordlwide crossfire player count is in the hundreds (or less), rather than thousands or more. I grant that I'm a largely outside observer, but the general politics of crossfire ensured I'd never step inside. > > Mitch Obrian wrote: >> Ryo banned me and tor from #crossfire because no >> matter how much one contributes to CF one has to fit >> in with the clique, be "nice" and "sociable" and >> accept constant art-by-committeism + the trollage by >> Leaf that follows when you don't (naturally, this >> seems to happen often enough). >> >> >> >> __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make >> it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> crossfire mailing list >> crossfire@metalforge.org >> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire >> > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 15:55:09 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Mon Oct 10 15:56:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051010162318.hnkw5q6icha8s08c@webmail.mit.edu> References: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <434AC3EB.1030305@woosworld.net> <20051010162318.hnkw5q6icha8s08c@webmail.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/05, Vernon T Rhyne wrote: ... > That hasn't, and will never be the case. Rule enforcement at all > levels is by whim and mood, as with most clique-managed open-source > communities. It's undoubtedly a major reason that the wordlwide crossfire > player count is in the hundreds (or less), rather than thousands or more. > > I grant that I'm a largely outside observer, but the general politics of > crossfire ensured I'd never step inside. ... Can you please elaborate on this, and give examples? -- Andrew Fuchs From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:52:19 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Mon Oct 10 16:57:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? Message-ID: There has been a discussion on IRC about Crossfire's band with usage. One suggestion, is to store the information about static objects in maps, client side. Every time an animation changes state, data is resent to the client. This supposedly uses a large amount of bandwidth, compared with everything else. Why not send the animation once, and have the client repeat it by itself? How would glowing crystals, and gates be handled? -- Andrew Fuchs From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 17:40:34 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 10 17:40:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051010224034.49772.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> > How would glowing crystals, > and gates be > handled? Based on type number? --- Andrew Fuchs wrote: > There has been a discussion on IRC about Crossfire's > band with usage. > > One suggestion, is to store the information about > static objects in > maps, client side. > > Every time an animation changes state, data is > resent to the client. > This supposedly uses a large amount of bandwidth, > compared with > everything else. Why not send the animation once, > and have the client > repeat it by itself? How would glowing crystals, > and gates be > handled? > > -- > Andrew Fuchs > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:12:25 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 10 18:12:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) In-Reply-To: <434ABFDD.8010604@laposte.net> References: <20051010190533.22537.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <434ABFDD.8010604@laposte.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510101612l57e8d4fyc3477690a8076a1f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/05, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > The rationale i see for using Python for item transformation is that > it's not a required feature to play the game. Same for bank actually - > you can play and do many things without the bank system. Same for gps, > and everything in Python scripts. It makes the game more fun, but the > core of the game does not depend on it. Such a line of reasoning does make me uneasy. How many things are not 'required' to play the game? If you play as a monk, or a dragon/fireborn, then weapons aren't required to play the game. The usage of clocks isn't required by the game. If you never die or get depleted and potions of life aren't required to play either. There are dozens of things which are non-essential like this, but there comes a certain point where, If you remove them, what remains? Currently python is needed for banks, mail, slot machines, the new guild system (if it gets turned on at some point), rings of occidental mages, message boards & the gps (possibly some there stuff too). In the near future it may include transformers also, and sess has been playing with doing AI in python as well (an idea that seems to have a great deal of merit to it). At some point (and to my mind we are there already) playing on a server without python is so much the inferior option, that it shouldn't be considered as something that anyone would intentionally do. Therefore I would argue that python should be a mandatory dependency, probably from the next stable version. From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:49:18 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 10 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051010162318.hnkw5q6icha8s08c@webmail.mit.edu> References: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <434AC3EB.1030305@woosworld.net> <20051010162318.hnkw5q6icha8s08c@webmail.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510101649q3d1a33acj4aaa40aa0ed346cb@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/05, Vernon T Rhyne wrote: > That hasn't, and will never be the case. Rule enforcement at all > levels is by whim and mood, as with most clique-managed open-source > communities. Try as with all stable communities anywhere in the world. The nature of rules is such that to have them enforced uniformly would be unjust. because rules only describe concepts, not individual circumstances. This is why court systems the world over allow for extenuating circumstances. (and why politicians who distrust their local judicary and try to make the response to such calls formalised in law create the loophole-filled laws that blight most nations in the world today) > It's undoubtedly a major reason that the wordlwide crossfire > player count is in the hundreds (or less), rather than thousands or more. I suspect there are five more noticable reasons for the lack of players. 1) mediocre performance on slow/laggy network connections (crossfire was designed for playing on an internal university network, and has never really been properly optimised to cope with modem connections, that up until only a couple of years ago were very common) 2) a historical lack of stability. - less of an issue in stable server releases, though the metalforge and cat2 servers sometimes find rather more bugs than might be preferred (that is, however, the nature of CVS code). 3) difficulty in setting up clients - until comparitively recently this required some interesting playing with telnet, and windows client support is a fairly new (and under exposed) thing - I've had a small go at helping in this respect myself (look at the posts about autopackage from last month) 4) High initial learning curve to play the game - partially this is an artifact of the way existing clients are created, partially this is a map/item issue (the god-given initial items are an interesting detail for a newbie who accidentally drops something). 5) lack of information about the project. - there are some steps being taken to deal with that. ( http://www.gamesites200.com/mpog/vote.php?id=2197 is one of them) > I grant that I'm a largely outside observer, but the general politics of > crossfire ensured I'd never step inside. I have not seen any noticable intrusion of politics in the project itself, arguably on the metalforge server such a thing can be observed, but metalforge != crossfire With all of the problems and issues that have arisen since I joined the project, I have never seen anything but a desire to find the best or most useful technical solution to the problem at hand, From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Oct 10 23:56:41 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 10 23:56:44 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510101612l57e8d4fyc3477690a8076a1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051010190533.22537.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <434ABFDD.8010604@laposte.net> <7903f03c0510101612l57e8d4fyc3477690a8076a1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <434B4609.1080204@sonic.net> But all this doesn't really answer the question - when should something be in python, and when should it be coded in C? I haven't looked at the python code really closely, but what I gather is that a badly written python script is as dangerous for the server as badly written C code (eg, the script could do things to objects it shouldn't, etc). But the point is that lots of stuff could potentially be moved to python is valid. but I know from my perspective, I'd rather debug C code than python code (which is likely harder because there is an extra layer there - is the script bad, or is there a bug in the plugin logic itself). I'm open to thoughts. I could certainly see people writing new spells entirely in python, but I'm not sure that would be a good idea. And same for lots of other code - I think we need to try and develope some standard for what should and should not be in python. Especially true if python is a requirement - in that case, the case that 'this isn't really required so is in python' goes away, as python would be required, then everything could be done in python. From mwedel at sonic.net Tue Oct 11 00:08:05 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Tue Oct 11 00:08:44 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434B48B5.5090706@sonic.net> Andrew Fuchs wrote: > There has been a discussion on IRC about Crossfire's band with usage. > > One suggestion, is to store the information about static objects in > maps, client side. One problem is to try to define what is static and what isn't. > > Every time an animation changes state, data is resent to the client. > This supposedly uses a large amount of bandwidth, compared with > everything else. Why not send the animation once, and have the client > repeat it by itself? How would glowing crystals, and gates be > handled? That is what is tricky. Glowing crystals are not that bad - presumably, as part of the info that a space is animated, you send how fast to animate it. The problem is with gates and the like - keeping those in sync with the client is critical. For example, you could imagine a map that has spikes going up and down. The player sees them when he enters the map, but has to kill a bunch of monsters to get there. Unfortunately, the players computer isn't very fast, and got bogged down a little little when he cast that fireball, to the extent it lost a few ticks. Now what the client displays as the state of the gates vs what the server thinks is the state is no longer in sync - player tries to pass them, and gets skewered. Note that you can substitute player computer for server there also - there are known times that the server can't keep up, and would thus be behind. So to do this, a new flag is really need like 'static animation' or something to denote that this is a purely cosmetic animation only and doesn't have any actual effect on gameplay, and thus doesn't need to be kept in sync. For those, we could send the animation id and just forget about it. For animations that are relevant, treat them like they are now. Also, at some level, you start imposing higher CPU cost on the server to figure all this out. So there are also some tradeoffs there. From bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com Tue Oct 11 02:43:43 2005 From: bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com (Sebastian Andersson) Date: Tue Oct 11 02:44:48 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? In-Reply-To: <434B48B5.5090706@sonic.net> References: <434B48B5.5090706@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051011074343.GA29633@hogia.net> On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 10:08:05PM -0700, Mark Wedel wrote: > The problem is with gates and the like - keeping those in sync with the > client is critical. For example, you could imagine a map that has spikes > going up and down. The player sees them when he enters the map, but has to > kill a bunch of monsters to get there. For cyclic animations (like spikes moving up and down), perhaps the server could just send out a "the current clock-tick is X" message to the client and all the animations could be based on that clock-tick, to make the client and server be in sync? Also "one shot" animations like gates could be improved by just triggering a start of the animation, not one message for every animation. To make things even more efficient, perhaps the server could somehow tell the client which arches are connected like when 20 gates are connected and will move all of them at the same time which is rather common in many maps. If the client knows that they are connected, a single command could be used to start all of their animations. Regards, /Sebastian -- .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: http://dum.acc.umu.se/ ( ) \_/ ( ) (o_ "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ //\ password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ V_/_ From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Tue Oct 11 04:36:58 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Tue Oct 11 04:46:50 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) Message-ID: > But all this doesn't really answer the question - when should something be in > python, and when should it be coded in C? True. As I see it, Python is used when you want to make it easy to customize things (no need to recompile) or "quick" (as in quick to implement) things, C else. Thus GPS is a good example of thing that can be done either in C or Python. It's quite simple, isn't performance critical, and can easily be extended (use "gps coins" to run, have a delay before displaying result, ...). But doing it in Python means you don't need to create a new item type for it, the Java editor will handle it out of the box easily, and such. Arguably the mail scripts could be put in server core too, since they add things. Also, Python is more easy for map designers, to extend gameplay. It's easier to distribute map + Python script than map + server patch, no need to recompile, and so on. Remember compilation can be a pain on some platforms :) And you can put the map & script on a running server, et voila, it works without any restart required - nice for uptime. > I haven't looked at the python code really closely, but what I gather is that > a badly written python script is as dangerous for the server as badly written C > code (eg, the script could do things to objects it shouldn't, etc). Yep. A mere "sys.exit()" in the script just exits the whole server - whoops. Also you can (for now, maybe it'll change with plugin rewrite) overwrite any value in the objects, trash things around, whatever you want :) > Especially true if python is a requirement - in that case, the case that 'this > isn't really required so is in python' goes away, as python would be required, > then everything could be done in python. Well, I see a few solutions: * make Python mandatory. Maybe not the best solution, Python is not installed on some platforms (Windows), and we don't really want to force people to install it, I think. Especially since Python comes with a zillion libraries, security considerations, some PATH issues, and such - and let's not start on version dependencies :) * have many small plugins, in C. If we find a simple way to build plugins, it would make it easy to write small specific plugins (gps, item transformation) that could be built and ran, but still not go into server "core". I think we then run into the server's design idea: do we want a "big" server, with every function builtin? A modular server with many plugins? A server with many Python scripts, thus making not having Python a major hindrance (not sure of the spelling on that one)? Maybe we can take a median way, actually. For now, concentrate on the server core, redo map protocol, things like that. Let new features / functions be handled by Python / plugins. Then when we'll decide the core is good, put some of those features in core. Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 08:55:56 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 11 08:56:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) In-Reply-To: <434B4609.1080204@sonic.net> References: <20051010190533.22537.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <434ABFDD.8010604@laposte.net> <7903f03c0510101612l57e8d4fyc3477690a8076a1f@mail.gmail.com> <434B4609.1080204@sonic.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510110655x2e97d155h37191b14d8574c8d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/11/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > > But all this doesn't really answer the question - when should something be in > python, and when should it be coded in C? To my way of thinking about it, python is something that should for the most part be tied to maps or objects. If an object needs to do something special then python is flexible way to have it act in a way that is unique without needing to add special cases to the server code all over the place. This would for example include moving grim reapers out to a python plugin (though there may be performance issues there) If something doesn't have a particular tie to a single map or item, then the server core seems a more sensible place for it, since many things could make use of it. This would mean that whereas the 'charm monster' spell could be done in python (but probably shouldn't because it is already working in C, and porting it would just be a way to introduce bugs), fire spells shouldn't be because there are lots of them, all of which rely fire propagating as it normally does - having the server deal with the fire propagation is far more sensible because more than 1 object (spell in this case) uses it. The only other consideration is speed, python is slower than C to run, although the number of times this matters is limited. From tchize at myrealbox.com Tue Oct 11 09:13:52 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (Tchize) Date: Tue Oct 11 09:14:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051010191920.59095.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434BC8A0.9010401@myrealbox.com> May be is it time for you to consider there is probably a good reason why you get banned from everywhere. Probably you are trying to get the world record of being banned from everywhere You are already the first person to get banned from list.debian.org, the first from bugs.debian.org, and this appear on first results on google, great job. Now your mail is simply trolling and whinning again. Being a commiter does not grant you the right to insult other commiters or either players. I don't know exactly 'why' you get banned, but i think everyone here can guess you where still polluting the chan in some of your favorite way. Mitch Obrian a ?crit : >Ryo banned me and tor from #crossfire because no >matter how much one contributes to CF one has to fit >in with the clique, be "nice" and "sociable" and >accept constant art-by-committeism + the trollage by >Leaf that follows when you don't (naturally, this >seems to happen often enough). > > > >__________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > >_______________________________________________ >crossfire mailing list >crossfire@metalforge.org >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 10:00:38 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:00:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <434BC8A0.9010401@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I was banned from the debain lists because the debian people are pro-women's rights for the most part. The ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will (check out debian women's list for confirmation). Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey the clique then it's felt that it's better that you leave. We wonder why there are few CF developers... well men usually don't take kindly to "do as I say because you have to obey!" mentality, which is the current CF mentality. Death To women's Rights. --- Tchize wrote: > May be is it time for you to consider there is > probably a good reason > why you get banned from everywhere. > Probably you are trying to get the world record of > being banned from > everywhere > You are already the first person to get banned from > list.debian.org, the first from bugs.debian.org, and > this appear > on first results on google, great job. Now your mail > is simply trolling > and whinning again. Being a commiter does not grant > you the > right to insult other commiters or either players. I > don't know exactly > 'why' you > get banned, but i think everyone here can guess you > where still > polluting the chan in some of your favorite way. > > > Mitch Obrian a ?crit : > > >Ryo banned me and tor from #crossfire because no > >matter how much one contributes to CF one has to > fit > >in with the clique, be "nice" and "sociable" and > >accept constant art-by-committeism + the trollage > by > >Leaf that follows when you don't (naturally, this > >seems to happen often enough). > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home > page! > >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > >_______________________________________________ > >crossfire mailing list > >crossfire@metalforge.org > >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 10:04:02 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:04:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? In-Reply-To: <20051011074343.GA29633@hogia.net> Message-ID: <20051011150402.55950.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> I think it would be best to not do that. We do not want to leak information to the client that he cannot see, nor do we want to tell him what is connected. I think the best would be to specify what is cosmetic animations (ex: monster animations, water, spell animations (fire etc) (these eat bandwith), etc) and keep the funcitonal ones as is (doors, gates, triggers, spikes). Most of the bandwith hit is on the spell, water, etc animations. --- Sebastian Andersson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 10:08:05PM -0700, Mark Wedel > wrote: > > The problem is with gates and the like - keeping > those in sync with the > > client is critical. For example, you could > imagine a map that has spikes > > going up and down. The player sees them when he > enters the map, but has to > > kill a bunch of monsters to get there. > > For cyclic animations (like spikes moving up and > down), perhaps the > server could just send out a "the current clock-tick > is X" message to > the client and all the animations could be based on > that clock-tick, > to make the client and server be in sync? > > Also "one shot" animations like gates could be > improved by just > triggering a start of the animation, not one message > for every animation. > To make things even more efficient, perhaps the > server could somehow > tell the client which arches are connected like when > 20 gates are > connected and will move all of them at the same time > which is rather > common in many maps. If the client knows that they > are connected, a > single command could be used to start all of their > animations. > > Regards, > /Sebastian > -- > .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: > http://dum.acc.umu.se/ > ( ) \_/ ( ) > (o_ > "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ > //\ > password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ > V_/_ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > ed __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 10:10:31 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:10:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] (Python) In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510110655x2e97d155h37191b14d8574c8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051011151031.83186.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I've though of python as something used for special case items (occiental mage rings, casino slots) and some interfacing (IPO etc). Big things (weather, spells, etc) should be done in C. Speed is good. Note: for debugging the server I suggest running it in gdb and questing for a few hours (or atleast running it for 4,5 hours, doing something sometimes). Most of the crashes don't happen in the first 5 min... note: it's still crashing for some reason every few hours. (And I'm banned from the channel because I'm not obeying the CF clique, so helping to debug it is out). Death To women's Rights --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/11/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > > > > But all this doesn't really answer the question > - when should something be in > > python, and when should it be coded in C? > > To my way of thinking about it, python is something > that should for > the most part be tied to maps or objects. If an > object needs to do > something special then python is flexible way to > have it act in a way > that is unique without needing to add special cases > to the server code > all over the place. This would for example include > moving grim reapers > out to a python plugin (though there may be > performance issues there) > > If something doesn't have a particular tie to a > single map or item, > then the server core seems a more sensible place for > it, since many > things could make use of it. > > This would mean that whereas the 'charm monster' > spell could be done > in python (but probably shouldn't because it is > already working in C, > and porting it would just be a way to introduce > bugs), fire spells > shouldn't be because there are lots of them, all of > which rely fire > propagating as it normally does - having the server > deal with the fire > propagation is far more sensible because more than 1 > object (spell in > this case) uses it. > > The only other consideration is speed, python is > slower than C to run, > although the number of times this matters is > limited. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com Tue Oct 11 10:22:22 2005 From: bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com (Sebastian Andersson) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:22:57 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <434BC8A0.9010401@myrealbox.com> <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051011152221.GC29633@hogia.net> On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 08:00:38AM -0700, Mitch Obrian wrote: > I was banned from the debain lists because the debian [snip] > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey the > clique then it's felt that it's better that you leave. [snip] http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html "The only consistent feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you". /Sebastian -- .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: http://dum.acc.umu.se/ ( ) \_/ ( ) (o_ "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ //\ password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ V_/_ From tchize at myrealbox.com Tue Oct 11 10:25:25 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (Tchize) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:28:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434BD965.9090604@myrealbox.com> Mitch Obrian a ?crit : >I was banned from the debain lists because the debian >people are pro-women's rights for the most part. The > > You were banned because you were abusing the bugreport system, but that's not the place to discuss about it. >ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will >(check out debian women's list for confirmation). > >Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not >matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey the >clique then it's felt that it's better that you leave. > > Mmm nice, a clique? I don't know half of the commiters of this clique, damn I am not part of the clique, does that mean I will have to leave? Ho shit! >We wonder why there are few CF developers... well men >usually don't take kindly to "do as I say because you >have to obey!" mentality, which is the current CF >mentality. > > I don't think there are few CF developers. Moreover, i have always though the reason crossfire had so little success was because of lack of strict development rules, people can do what they want as long as players enjoy it. All is required is to follow some development guideline which were agreed by other developpers. >Death To women's Rights. > > > Death To Jerks >--- Tchize wrote: > > > >>May be is it time for you to consider there is >>probably a good reason >>why you get banned from everywhere. >>Probably you are trying to get the world record of >>being banned from >>everywhere >>You are already the first person to get banned from >>list.debian.org, the first from bugs.debian.org, and >>this appear >>on first results on google, great job. Now your mail >>is simply trolling >>and whinning again. Being a commiter does not grant >>you the >>right to insult other commiters or either players. I >>don't know exactly >>'why' you >>get banned, but i think everyone here can guess you >>where still >>polluting the chan in some of your favorite way. >> >> >>Mitch Obrian a ?crit : >> >> >> >>>Ryo banned me and tor from #crossfire because no >>>matter how much one contributes to CF one has to >>> >>> >>fit >> >> >>>in with the clique, be "nice" and "sociable" and >>>accept constant art-by-committeism + the trollage >>> >>> >>by >> >> >>>Leaf that follows when you don't (naturally, this >>>seems to happen often enough). >>> >>> >>> >>>__________________________________ >>>Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home >>> >>> >>page! >> >> >>>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>crossfire mailing list >>>crossfire@metalforge.org >>> >>> >>http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>crossfire mailing list >>crossfire@metalforge.org >> >> >> >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ >crossfire mailing list >crossfire@metalforge.org >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 10:24:34 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:28:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <434BC8A0.9010401@myrealbox.com> <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510110824t2fc61fa7y961cb763baac4019@mail.gmail.com> On 10/11/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > I was banned from the debain lists because the debian > people are pro-women's rights for the most part. The > ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will > (check out debian women's list for confirmation). I'm sorry, I seem to be a bit confused here, weren't you supposed to be supplying reasons why you /shouldn't/ be banned? > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey the > clique then it's felt that it's better that you leave. I rather think that the set of people who do /not/ : 1) repeatedly and incessently, troll about women's rights and development methodology, 2) 'quit' whenever they felt they aren't getting their own way 3) immediatly rejoin after being kicked, then kickbanned, using various proxies before considering there might be a reason for being kicked in the first place. form a fairly large clique. Please consider joining this 'clique' of ours, there are another 6.4 billion (cia estimate) members waiting for you to do so. > We wonder why there are few CF developers... well men > usually don't take kindly to "do as I say because you > have to obey!" mentality, which is the current CF > mentality. If anything there is a /lack/ of this at the moment. If you think otherwise, then answer this question: What will be in the next stable release? Which features, which bug fixes, which changes will be in crossfire between now and when 1.9 is out? What has to be finished? Who is currently blocking the release of the next version and therefore needs to be 'ordered' to complete something? > Death To women's Rights. I don't think this point needs further comment. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 10:34:30 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:34:49 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051011152221.GC29633@hogia.net> Message-ID: <20051011153430.74445.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> :) --- Sebastian Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 08:00:38AM -0700, Mitch > Obrian wrote: > > I was banned from the debain lists because the > debian > [snip] > > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > > matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey > the > > clique then it's felt that it's better that you > leave. > [snip] > > http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html > > "The only consistent feature of all your > dissatisfying relationships is > you". > > /Sebastian > -- > .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: > http://dum.acc.umu.se/ > ( ) \_/ ( ) > (o_ > "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ > //\ > password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ > V_/_ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 10:54:47 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:55:36 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <434BD965.9090604@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20051011155447.50339.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tchize wrote: > >Death To women's Rights. > > > > > > > Death To Jerks > Death To women's Liberties __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 10:56:40 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 10:58:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510110824t2fc61fa7y961cb763baac4019@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051011155640.77590.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> 6.4 billion members? The whole world is pro-women's rights? If so then I'll welcome WW3 as I can't war against the whole world by myself (thus the whole pro-women's rights world destroying it'self is preferable). --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/11/05, Mitch Obrian > wrote: > > I was banned from the debain lists because the > debian > > people are pro-women's rights for the most part. > The > > ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will > > (check out debian women's list for confirmation). > > I'm sorry, I seem to be a bit confused here, weren't > you supposed to > be supplying reasons why you /shouldn't/ be banned? > > > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > > matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey > the > > clique then it's felt that it's better that you > leave. > > I rather think that the set of people who do /not/ : > 1) repeatedly and incessently, troll about women's > rights and > development methodology, > 2) 'quit' whenever they felt they aren't getting > their own way > 3) immediatly rejoin after being kicked, then > kickbanned, using > various proxies before considering there might be a > reason for being > kicked in the first place. > > form a fairly large clique. > > Please consider joining this 'clique' of ours, there > are another 6.4 > billion (cia estimate) members waiting for you to do > so. > > > We wonder why there are few CF developers... well > men > > usually don't take kindly to "do as I say because > you > > have to obey!" mentality, which is the current CF > > mentality. > > If anything there is a /lack/ of this at the moment. > If you think > otherwise, then answer this question: > > What will be in the next stable release? > Which features, which bug fixes, which changes will > be in crossfire > between now and when 1.9 is out? What has to be > finished? Who is > currently blocking the release of the next version > and therefore needs > to be 'ordered' to complete something? > > > Death To women's Rights. > > I don't think this point needs further comment. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 11:25:02 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 11:26:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Server debug session starting at 3:45 Eastern Standard today on #crossfire-bs (irc.debian.org or associates) Message-ID: <20051011162502.70164.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Since the server is crashing every couple of hours (sometimes more often) I'd like to start up a server in gdb on port 8055 at cat2.dynu.ca that we could join and try to crash. Thoughts on what to do: utilize various shops. Use say and shout muchly (seems to crash with some says?) Quest abit so we will do all of these (and run through monsters etc, giving the whole game the run around). Perhapse also use some python scripts (IPO etc). Before this, however, it would probably also be good if some people ran their private servers in gdb with a client connected for some time (hours) incase this crash is a time based one. Congrats to Ryo and the gang for getting bottles working with the new attribute :). __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 11:34:09 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 11:34:57 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051011155640.77590.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051011163409.94570.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I'd rather not join the pro-women's rights clique. For some reason I don't believe that women who murder their husbands or children should get away (regardless of the reason), I think said women should be hanged without a drop, then just before they die taken down and taunted and then strung back up for the final removal of said "goddess". Women should have no rights. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4321130.stm Woman stabs husband because he is verbally abusive, gets community service. I pray that that woman is murdered in the streets while she is doing her community service... where's the muslims when you need them (or as cave tell's me, they're pro-women's rights too (their religious texts are atleast)). Death To women's Rights, Liberties, and Freedoms. --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > 6.4 billion members? The whole world is pro-women's > rights? If so then I'll welcome WW3 as I can't war > against the whole world by myself (thus the whole > pro-women's rights world destroying it'self is > preferable). > > --- Brendan Lally wrote: > > > On 10/11/05, Mitch Obrian > > wrote: > > > I was banned from the debain lists because the > > debian > > > people are pro-women's rights for the most part. > > The > > > ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will > > > (check out debian women's list for > confirmation). > > > > I'm sorry, I seem to be a bit confused here, > weren't > > you supposed to > > be supplying reasons why you /shouldn't/ be > banned? > > > > > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > > > matter how much one contributes, if you don't > obey > > the > > > clique then it's felt that it's better that you > > leave. > > > > I rather think that the set of people who do /not/ > : > > 1) repeatedly and incessently, troll about > women's > > rights and > > development methodology, > > 2) 'quit' whenever they felt they aren't getting > > their own way > > 3) immediatly rejoin after being kicked, then > > kickbanned, using > > various proxies before considering there might be > a > > reason for being > > kicked in the first place. > > > > form a fairly large clique. > > > > Please consider joining this 'clique' of ours, > there > > are another 6.4 > > billion (cia estimate) members waiting for you to > do > > so. > > > > > We wonder why there are few CF developers... > well > > men > > > usually don't take kindly to "do as I say > because > > you > > > have to obey!" mentality, which is the current > CF > > > mentality. > > > > If anything there is a /lack/ of this at the > moment. > > If you think > > otherwise, then answer this question: > > > > What will be in the next stable release? > > Which features, which bug fixes, which changes > will > > be in crossfire > > between now and when 1.9 is out? What has to be > > finished? Who is > > currently blocking the release of the next version > > and therefore needs > > to be 'ordered' to complete something? > > > > > Death To women's Rights. > > > > I don't think this point needs further comment. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 12:22:10 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 12:22:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Interesting discussion that could be applied to some crossfire mapping Message-ID: <20051011172210.76477.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.nexuiz.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1264 This might work well for the azamuindo region. Currently I can't think of quests to add in there (not knowing japanese lore). However, if mutliple map makers worked together building a quest (or a few), when one got bored for awhile another could pick it up. As it is azamuindo doesn't really have quests :(. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com Tue Oct 11 13:03:15 2005 From: yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com (Yann Chachkoff) Date: Tue Oct 11 13:04:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me Message-ID: <1129053795.c7dc973cyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Well, could you *please* keep the political rants away from this mailing list ? This is devoted to Crossfire, not to what you think about Freedoms, Women or other conspiracy theories. May I request for the list administrator to take the necessary measure to regulate what can only be labelled as troll, please ? From tchize at myrealbox.com Tue Oct 11 13:10:56 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (tchize) Date: Tue Oct 11 13:12:57 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me Message-ID: <1129054256.c7e6315ctchize@myrealbox.com> This discussion should be closed, Goldwin point was reached. -----Original Message----- From: Mitch Obrian To: Crossfire Discussion Mailing List Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [crossfire] Unban me I'd rather not join the pro-women's rights clique. For some reason I don't believe that women who murder their husbands or children should get away (regardless of the reason), I think said women should be hanged without a drop, then just before they die taken down and taunted and then strung back up for the final removal of said "goddess". Women should have no rights. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4321130.stm Woman stabs husband because he is verbally abusive, gets community service. I pray that that woman is murdered in the streets while she is doing her community service... where's the muslims when you need them (or as cave tell's me, they're pro-women's rights too (their religious texts are atleast)). Death To women's Rights, Liberties, and Freedoms. --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > 6.4 billion members? The whole world is pro-women's > rights? If so then I'll welcome WW3 as I can't war > against the whole world by myself (thus the whole > pro-women's rights world destroying it'self is > preferable). > > --- Brendan Lally wrote: > > > On 10/11/05, Mitch Obrian > > wrote: > > > I was banned from the debain lists because the > > debian > > > people are pro-women's rights for the most part. > > The > > > ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will > > > (check out debian women's list for > confirmation). > > > > I'm sorry, I seem to be a bit confused here, > weren't > > you supposed to > > be supplying reasons why you /shouldn't/ be > banned? > > > > > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > > > matter how much one contributes, if you don't > obey > > the > > > clique then it's felt that it's better that you > > leave. > > > > I rather think that the set of people who do /not/ > : > > 1) repeatedly and incessently, troll about > women's > > rights and > > development methodology, > > 2) 'quit' whenever they felt they aren't getting > > their own way > > 3) immediatly rejoin after being kicked, then > > kickbanned, using > > various proxies before considering there might be > a > > reason for being > > kicked in the first place. > > > > form a fairly large clique. > > > > Please consider joining this 'clique' of ours, > there > > are another 6.4 > > billion (cia estimate) members waiting for you to > do > > so. > > > > > We wonder why there are few CF developers... > well > > men > > > usually don't take kindly to "do as I say > because > > you > > > have to obey!" mentality, which is the current > CF > > > mentality. > > > > If anything there is a /lack/ of this at the > moment. > > If you think > > otherwise, then answer this question: > > > > What will be in the next stable release? > > Which features, which bug fixes, which changes > will > > be in crossfire > > between now and when 1.9 is out? What has to be > > finished? Who is > > currently blocking the release of the next version > > and therefore needs > > to be 'ordered' to complete something? > > > > > Death To women's Rights. > > > > I don't think this point needs further comment. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ _______________________________________________ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:28:22 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Tue Oct 11 13:28:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <1129054256.c7e6315ctchize@myrealbox.com> References: <1129054256.c7e6315ctchize@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/05, tchize wrote: > This discussion should be closed, Goldwin point was reached. ... Agreed, at least in the discussion's current form. I also think that it may be a good idea to keep more information about bans from now on. Possibly including the text of the conversation leading up to the banning. -- Andrew Fuchs From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:31:29 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 11 13:32:57 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Server debug session starting at 3:45 Eastern Standard today on #crossfire-bs (irc.debian.org or associates) In-Reply-To: <20051011162502.70164.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051011162502.70164.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510111131h747b2cddv68e5e56023190cfa@mail.gmail.com> I like this idea. I wonder if it could be a weekly (ish) thing? probably would need to switch across timezones each week given the geographic range that crossfire developers span, and maybe switch days slowly over time. Maybe something like every 8 days and 6 hours: this would mean then that bugfixing sessions would be (all times given as local time from london) 1) today at 8:45pm 2) thursday 20th october at 2:45am 3) friday 28th october at 8:45am 4) saturday 5th november at 3:45pm (switch to greenwich mean time occurs that week) 5) sunday 6th nov 9:45pm 6) tuesday 14th nov 5:45am etc. The point would be that someone who only gets a few hours spare on a couple of days a week should still have one of these timed suitably for them at least every couple of months, possibly more frequently. From yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com Tue Oct 11 10:21:23 2005 From: yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com (Yann Chachkoff) Date: Tue Oct 11 13:58:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051011150038.42929.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200510111721.31225.yann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Le Mardi 11 Octobre 2005 17:00, Mitch Obrian a ?crit : > I was banned from the debain lists because the debian > people are pro-women's rights for the most part. The > ban had no effect, I post to those lists at will > (check out debian women's list for confirmation). > Point is that if you follow the proper "netiquette" of good behavior, you'd never get banned from anywhere. > Crossfire is a clique based project, it does not > matter how much one contributes, if you don't obey the > clique then it's felt that it's better that you leave. > Keeping anarchy from crippling a project that exists for so many years, involving people with so many different habits is a difficult task. That's why there are some basical rules to follow - and it is already hard enough sometimes to coordinate everything. Being part of a community and participating to a project starts by accepting its rules. If you don't want to comply, provide good reasons to show in which way those rules are harmful for your work and should be changed. Apart from that, I agree with the "clique": if you don't obey the rules, it is indeed better to leave. > We wonder why there are few CF developers... > There are more than enough developers for a project of that scale. > well men > usually don't take kindly to "do as I say because you > have to obey!" mentality, which is the current CF > mentality. > Again, if you have good reasons not to comply to rules that were edicted for the goodness of everybody contributing, then expose them. Else, either comply or leave. Simple as that. > Death To women's Rights. > Keep your political rants outside of this list, which is devoted to Crossfire, not to your personal opinion about topics that aren't related to it. That's *also* part of common courtesy. Have a nice day. -- Yann Chachkoff ----------------------- Garden Dwarf's Best Friend ----------------------- GPG Key : http://keyserver.veridis.com:11371/export?id=9080288987474372064 Fingerprint: 6616 2E02 BAD2 4AEF C90A F1EB 7E03 AAB9 844D 25E0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20051011/4f52f936/attachment.pgp From eracclists at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 11 14:02:57 2005 From: eracclists at bellsouth.net (ERACC) Date: Tue Oct 11 14:05:03 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: References: <1129054256.c7e6315ctchize@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <200510111402.58214.eracclists@bellsouth.net> On Tuesday 11 October 2005 01:28 pm Andrew Fuchs wrote: [...] > I also think that it may be a good idea to keep more information about > bans from now on. Possibly including the text of the conversation > leading up to the banning. This information *is* kept but not in a public place. The IRC Ops from #crossfire have access to history of most (if not all) bans. The history includes the relevant "conversation". Gene Alexander -- Linux era4.eracc.UUCP 2.6.8.1-12mdk i686 14:00:24 up 146 days, 14:41, 9 users, load average: 1.09, 1.11, 1.13 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eCS, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer & UnixWare resellers From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Tue Oct 11 16:36:18 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Tue Oct 11 16:37:00 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Weather bug Message-ID: <434C3052.7000904@laposte.net> Hello. There's a weather bug, seen on cat2. Floor tiles disappear under 'rain' archetypes. Apparently it only happens when there is something apart the ground on the tile (house, light, whatever). I looked at the weather code, but can't right now find the issue. Either the avoid_weather function, or something else - singing_in_the_rain probably. I'll try to look more in depth. Ryo From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 16:39:07 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 16:41:22 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me In-Reply-To: <1129053795.c7dc973cyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20051011213907.96294.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> This isn't crossfire-devel, not everything is thus directly related to cfdev on here. --- Yann Chachkoff wrote: > Well, could you *please* keep the political rants > away from this mailing list ? This is devoted to > Crossfire, not to what you think about Freedoms, > Women or other conspiracy theories. > > May I request for the list administrator to take the > necessary measure to regulate what can only be > labelled as troll, please ? > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 23:49:25 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 11 23:51:07 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Weather bug In-Reply-To: <434C3052.7000904@laposte.net> Message-ID: <20051012044925.93863.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Also dissapears under snows that are under walls/buildings/lights --- Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Hello. > > There's a weather bug, seen on cat2. > Floor tiles disappear under 'rain' archetypes. > Apparently it only happens when there is something > apart the ground on > the tile (house, light, whatever). > > I looked at the weather code, but can't right now > find the issue. > Either the avoid_weather function, or something else > - > singing_in_the_rain probably. > > I'll try to look more in depth. > > Ryo > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mwedel at sonic.net Wed Oct 12 00:03:26 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Wed Oct 12 00:03:07 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? In-Reply-To: <20051011150402.55950.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051011150402.55950.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434C991E.8030401@sonic.net> Mitch Obrian wrote: > I think it would be best to not do that. We do not > want to leak information to the client that he cannot > see, nor do we want to tell him what is connected. > > I think the best would be to specify what is cosmetic > animations (ex: monster animations, water, spell > animations (fire etc) (these eat bandwith), etc) and > keep the funcitonal ones as is (doors, gates, > triggers, spikes). Most of the bandwith hit is on the > spell, water, etc animations. I agree. The bandwidth of the gate moving is pretty trivial - something like 4 bytes/tick or the like (8 ticks/second, so 32 bytes per second). Granted, may be several gates/doors moving, but still. Has anyone actually done analysis on actual bandwidth usage, or is all this just WAGs? Bandwidth for the map is 2 bytes for the space (coordinates). 1 byte for darkness. 2 bytes for the 3 faces. Worst case situation is a space is 9 bytes. 625 spaces (25x25) - 5625 bytes/tick. 8 ticks/sec - 45000. So worse case, which would pretty much never be seen, is 45 k/sec - non trivial. But maybe it also depends on what we require. But I'd also say that isn't a case your likely to see very often. I'd estimate more realistic usage is closer to 10-20k/sec, even in really bad cases (highly unlikely you'd ever get a case where there are objects on all three layers, and all of those objects are also animated). I think that can be brought down. But one has to be careful on how much work is spent to optimize this. Conveying that a space should use an animation is likely to actually use more initial bandwith, with savings down the road. But for something like a gate, it may actually not be much a win - and almost certainly not for the complexity added. I can certainly see that the case of oceans can be a fairly big user - maybe of half the map of ocean spaces - 300 * (2 + 2) * 8 = 9600 bytes/sec. I'd much rather go for the easy cases like letting client animate oceans and other things we don't care about. IF that doesn't get enough savings, worry about trying to optimize the more complex cases. But all that said, one has to figure out what hte goal is. Its going to take some bandwidth no matter what you do - you can't optimize it to zero. Is it worth it to write a lot of code and add a lot of complexity to saving 500 bytes/second? My thought would be no - if anything, as time passes, bandwidth will become more available and cheaper. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 12 08:37:07 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 12 08:37:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Bandwith ussage too high? In-Reply-To: <434C991E.8030401@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051012133707.18808.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> The obvious easy things basically anything cylical) are the ones to do first (cylical ones: oceans, etc). Then second may be monsters and then spells. That's as far as we should go IMHO (any futher would reveal things we don't want the client to know about the map). Spells do cause lag because they have to animate fast while propagating, the bandwith might beable to be cut in 1/2 on that one (the animation the client allready knows (if he saw that spell before) but the propagation must still be sent). Another area where, when looking at the CF datastream, that ate bandwith were the verbose movement commands and the map1a command. Rednaxela suggested that these could be made into 3 or 4 bit commands (rather then the multi byte commands they are now). This would decrease lag happily :D. --- Mark Wedel wrote: > Mitch Obrian wrote: > > I think it would be best to not do that. We do not > > want to leak information to the client that he > cannot > > see, nor do we want to tell him what is connected. > > > > I think the best would be to specify what is > cosmetic > > animations (ex: monster animations, water, spell > > animations (fire etc) (these eat bandwith), etc) > and > > keep the funcitonal ones as is (doors, gates, > > triggers, spikes). Most of the bandwith hit is on > the > > spell, water, etc animations. > > I agree. The bandwidth of the gate moving is > pretty trivial - something like > 4 bytes/tick or the like (8 ticks/second, so 32 > bytes per second). > > Granted, may be several gates/doors moving, but > still. > > Has anyone actually done analysis on actual > bandwidth usage, or is all this > just WAGs? > > Bandwidth for the map is 2 bytes for the space > (coordinates). 1 byte for > darkness. 2 bytes for the 3 faces. > > Worst case situation is a space is 9 bytes. 625 > spaces (25x25) - 5625 > bytes/tick. 8 ticks/sec - 45000. So worse case, > which would pretty much never > be seen, is 45 k/sec - non trivial. But maybe it > also depends on what we > require. But I'd also say that isn't a case your > likely to see very often. I'd > estimate more realistic usage is closer to > 10-20k/sec, even in really bad cases > (highly unlikely you'd ever get a case where there > are objects on all three > layers, and all of those objects are also animated). > > I think that can be brought down. But one has to > be careful on how much work > is spent to optimize this. Conveying that a space > should use an animation is > likely to actually use more initial bandwith, with > savings down the road. But > for something like a gate, it may actually not be > much a win - and almost > certainly not for the complexity added. > > I can certainly see that the case of oceans can be > a fairly big user - maybe > of half the map of ocean spaces - 300 * (2 + 2) * 8 > = 9600 bytes/sec. > > I'd much rather go for the easy cases like letting > client animate oceans and > other things we don't care about. IF that doesn't > get enough savings, worry > about trying to optimize the more complex cases. > > But all that said, one has to figure out what hte > goal is. Its going to take > some bandwidth no matter what you do - you can't > optimize it to zero. Is it > worth it to write a lot of code and add a lot of > complexity to saving 500 > bytes/second? My thought would be no - if anything, > as time passes, bandwidth > will become more available and cheaper. > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Wed Oct 12 14:58:51 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Wed Oct 12 14:59:20 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Weather bug In-Reply-To: <20051012044925.93863.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051012044925.93863.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434D6AFB.40908@laposte.net> Well, if anyone knows the weather code, please put some comments in it lol I think i'm starting to understand how it works, but still... I found something that seems strange: in weather.c, lines around 2064. Apparently, if we find a tile and its herb, remove *both*. But why both? If mint grows on grass, why remove the grass with the mint? Nicolas From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 12:17:22 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Thu Oct 13 12:17:41 2005 Subject: [crossfire] How to use Ryo's quest stuff? Message-ID: <20051013171722.70682.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> How do I use ryo's quest stuff and where do I find it in crossedit? I'd like to start intergrating it into my maps. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From pc-crossfire04 at crowcastle.net Thu Oct 13 12:39:00 2005 From: pc-crossfire04 at crowcastle.net (Preston Crow) Date: Thu Oct 13 12:39:41 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Quest/Maps idea Message-ID: <1129225140.24533.26.camel@d5110227.lss.emc.com> I was just thinking that it might be cool to be able to set an entrance to point to a different map if you've completed a quest. For example, once you've completed the old Scorn undercity quest, the next time you enter those maps, it could be a happy under construction place. (Or perhaps, the hole was re-opened, and there is a fresh horde of much nastier monsters this time...) Not that I have time to make such maps. --PC From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Oct 13 14:17:10 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Thu Oct 13 14:17:44 2005 Subject: [crossfire] How to use Ryo's quest stuff? In-Reply-To: <20051013171722.70682.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051013171722.70682.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434EB2B6.2080401@laposte.net> There are new archetypes "quest_xxx" to use, put'em in the ear/mouth/npc's inventory. There's a (start of) documentation in doc/Developers/quest. Note that you also need to collect latest archetypes, not sure the lib/ directory was collected and committed since my quest changes. Ryo From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Oct 13 14:28:41 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Thu Oct 13 14:29:42 2005 Subject: [crossfire] How to use Ryo's quest stuff? In-Reply-To: <434EB2B6.2080401@laposte.net> References: <20051013171722.70682.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <434EB2B6.2080401@laposte.net> Message-ID: <434EB569.3030104@laposte.net> Oh yeah, also check test/quest map, basic test map. Note that I didn't really test everything... Ryo From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Oct 13 14:31:17 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Thu Oct 13 14:34:00 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Windows snapshot Message-ID: <434EB605.9000607@laposte.net> I plan on doing a snapshot release for client & server for Windows this week-end (been 4 weeks since last). If you want to commit breaking things, well, go ahead before that date *evil grin* Ryo From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:39:52 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Thu Oct 13 14:41:43 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Windows snapshot In-Reply-To: <434EB605.9000607@laposte.net> References: <434EB605.9000607@laposte.net> Message-ID: On 10/13/05, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > I plan on doing a snapshot release for client & server for Windows this > week-end (been 4 weeks since last). > If you want to commit breaking things, well, go ahead before that date > *evil grin* I think gros is going to commit the new plugin system, a.k.a. The Big Patch; on saturday -- Andrew Fuchs From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Oct 13 14:52:54 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Thu Oct 13 14:53:42 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Windows snapshot In-Reply-To: References: <434EB605.9000607@laposte.net> Message-ID: <434EBB16.5020602@laposte.net> > I think gros is going to commit the new plugin system, a.k.a. The Big > Patch; on saturday Then we'll have some testers for it :) Ryo From leaf at real-time.com Thu Oct 13 18:24:18 2005 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu Oct 13 18:25:46 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Quest/Maps idea In-Reply-To: <1129225140.24533.26.camel@d5110227.lss.emc.com> References: <1129225140.24533.26.camel@d5110227.lss.emc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Preston Crow wrote: > I was just thinking that it might be cool to be able to set an entrance > to point to a different map if you've completed a quest. > > For example, once you've completed the old Scorn undercity quest, the > next time you enter those maps, it could be a happy under construction > place. (Or perhaps, the hole was re-opened, and there is a fresh horde > of much nastier monsters this time...) Interesting idea, but wouldn't this also create some problems for players? Using your example - one player completes the old Scorn undercity quest. That player will never be able to go back to that mapset to help another player (who has never been there), to collect a specific monster part (treasure, etc.) because they know right where it is and so on. But then, they would have a "whole new map" to explore if/when they do complete the original quest. Is this incentive enough or enough of a reward to compensate for not being able to go back to the "original" map? On a somehwat similar thought, what about map entrances that vary based on time of day or other event? For instance, during the day a castle contains royal guards, no wondering monsters, etc. But at night, interior map is replaced with ghosts and other nasties. Or, a dungeon in a tower next the sea floods every afternoon because of high tide. From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 18:33:29 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Thu Oct 13 18:33:46 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Quest/Maps idea In-Reply-To: References: <1129225140.24533.26.camel@d5110227.lss.emc.com> Message-ID: On 10/13/05, Rick Tanner wrote: ... > On a somehwat similar thought, what about map entrances that vary based on > time of day or other event? > > For instance, during the day a castle contains royal guards, no wondering > monsters, etc. But at night, interior map is replaced with ghosts and > other nasties. Or, a dungeon in a tower next the sea floods every > afternoon because of high tide. Theres a RFE on the tracker, for a time-based connected object. Which could be used for this. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1318639&group_id=13833&atid=363833 -- Andrew Fuchs From mwedel at sonic.net Thu Oct 13 23:36:36 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Oct 13 23:35:50 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Quest/Maps idea In-Reply-To: References: <1129225140.24533.26.camel@d5110227.lss.emc.com> Message-ID: <434F35D4.5010507@sonic.net> Andrew Fuchs wrote: > On 10/13/05, Rick Tanner wrote: > ... > >>On a somehwat similar thought, what about map entrances that vary based on >>time of day or other event? >> >>For instance, during the day a castle contains royal guards, no wondering >>monsters, etc. But at night, interior map is replaced with ghosts and >>other nasties. Or, a dungeon in a tower next the sea floods every >>afternoon because of high tide. > > > Theres a RFE on the tracker, for a time-based connected object. Which > could be used for this. > > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1318639&group_id=13833&atid=363833 > The problem is that the same issue that applies with different exit pointer based on quest completion has. EG, player 1 enters time based map. Player 2 decides to join him 10 minutes later - unfortunately, in that time period, the event time has changed, so player 2 is now on a different map. I will say I'd prefer the idea of time based rather than player based events. But trying to keep in synchronized seems odd. Now I guess in theory the same thing can happen for random maps - a player could be deep in a random map set in which the first few maps have reset, so that a new player gets a different set of maps. I think for time based stuff, more likekly, different information given out by time (eg, NPC abc says something at night, not at day). And maps being open/closed by time make sense (the shop is closed, etc). From mwedel at sonic.net Thu Oct 13 23:37:35 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Thu Oct 13 23:39:51 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Windows snapshot In-Reply-To: <434EBB16.5020602@laposte.net> References: <434EB605.9000607@laposte.net> <434EBB16.5020602@laposte.net> Message-ID: <434F360E.9090502@sonic.net> Nicolas Weeger wrote: >>I think gros is going to commit the new plugin system, a.k.a. The Big >>Patch; on saturday > > > Then we'll have some testers for it :) I'm pretty close to commiting the new movement stuff (different blocking forms, etc) also. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Oct 14 02:29:50 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri Oct 14 02:29:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Windows snapshot Message-ID: > I'm pretty close to commiting the new movement stuff (different blocking > forms, etc) also. Ha well, if that many things coming, I can either release just before the Big Commits of New Features, or wait one more week for remaining bugs to be ironed out :) Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Oct 14 02:28:31 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri Oct 14 02:29:57 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Quest/Maps idea Message-ID: > Theres a RFE on the tracker, for a time-based connected object. Which > could be used for this. It's imo the perfect thing for a Python script, i think, assuming we add the right hook for time :) Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From mwedel at sonic.net Fri Oct 14 02:39:11 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Fri Oct 14 02:37:54 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. Message-ID: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> So I finished up the new movement code and did some basic testing, and it seems to work. In basic terms, now multiple move types (walking, fly_low, fly_high, swimming). Spaces can block some or all of those. For compatibility, no_pass 1 blocks all of those. My basic test shows this work. One issue: Movement blockage has to be explicitly set. In other words, unless something on the space explicity says you can't use movement type X, you can use it. This matches previous behaviour, and for the most part, works fine. The issue here is swimming. As things sound now, you can't swim in the ocean or rivers, because they have no_pass 1. However, since pretty much all outdoor spaces don't set anything, it means you can 'swim' through the desert. right now, this doesn't have any relevant meaning - there is no way to get swimming movement type. One issue if you could is that slow_move (old field) only slows down walking, not flying or swimming. It seems to me the proper way to fix this is to set all ground objects to have move_block 8, so you can't swim through desert, forests, etc. Any other thoughts? Notes? Questions? Also, feel free to try this out on my server: tavern.santa-clara.ca.us Do note this server is really only up for this testing. I put a building next to the inn in scorn that has some test cases. From delbd at oma.be Fri Oct 14 03:10:57 2005 From: delbd at oma.be (David Delbecq) Date: Fri Oct 14 03:11:54 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> Message-ID: <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> 2 questions - can we think about allowing player to swim in non-deep sea (near scorn port) and if so, make this movements very low (for geographical reasons) - If we suppose you can't swim in on grass (obvious) using move_block 8, what about grass with a piece of river above?? Tricky? that's because this flag is a per tile flag while it is set at the object level. Perhaps we could start start, apart from this patch, a discusion on the opportunity to move every square flag away from object to the map square itself. Or perhaps creating a mapsquare_flag object which override any map flag that could be set by other object. This mapsquare_flag object could be present not as an object but a a square properties in the editor. 1 Suggestion Is it faisable with current code to create a square that could be traversed by small creature but not by big one. eg: mice, ants, dogs, cats, and 'crouched' humanoids could get thru but not any thing bigger? other example: only mice, ants, dogs Other suggestion: a square that need a minimu size to get thru. Eg a 1m wall mice can't pass while any humanoid can naturally climb it? :D Any way, good job Mark, Regards, Tchize Mark Wedel a ?crit : > > So I finished up the new movement code and did some basic testing, > and it > seems to work. > > In basic terms, now multiple move types (walking, fly_low, fly_high, > swimming). Spaces can block some or all of those. > > For compatibility, no_pass 1 blocks all of those. > > My basic test shows this work. One issue: > > Movement blockage has to be explicitly set. In other words, unless > something on the space explicity says you can't use movement type X, > you can use it. > > This matches previous behaviour, and for the most part, works fine. > > The issue here is swimming. As things sound now, you can't swim in > the ocean or rivers, because they have no_pass 1. However, since > pretty much all outdoor spaces don't set anything, it means you can > 'swim' through the desert. > > right now, this doesn't have any relevant meaning - there is no way > to get swimming movement type. One issue if you could is that > slow_move (old field) only slows down walking, not flying or swimming. > > It seems to me the proper way to fix this is to set all ground > objects to have move_block 8, so you can't swim through desert, > forests, etc. > > Any other thoughts? Notes? Questions? > > Also, feel free to try this out on my server: > > tavern.santa-clara.ca.us > > Do note this server is really only up for this testing. I put a > building next to the inn in scorn that has some test cases. > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > From delbd at oma.be Fri Oct 14 03:20:56 2005 From: delbd at oma.be (David Delbecq) Date: Fri Oct 14 03:21:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Quest/Maps idea In-Reply-To: <434F35D4.5010507@sonic.net> References: <1129225140.24533.26.camel@d5110227.lss.emc.com> <434F35D4.5010507@sonic.net> Message-ID: <434F6A68.9040707@oma.be> For time based: quite easy to manage, just do it at map load time from original map. So first to 'reset' the map does create the environnement, other just get the same map, loaded from cache or already in memory. So between 2 reset, there is only one version of map loaded. For player based loading, this is more tricky. As you said, problem is for party. Crossfire code is not really made for 'party/player based' maps. Showing different things to different players is a bit of problem in terms of roleplay. One could argue having a 'kill the goblin chief' quest reset again and again might also be a problem in terms of role play. I think for the second part, player just do not care. For the first part, people fill fill bugs when they notice they aren't on same place as their mates. regards, Tchize Mark Wedel a ?crit : > Andrew Fuchs wrote: > >> On 10/13/05, Rick Tanner wrote: ... >> >>> On a somehwat similar thought, what about map entrances that >>> vary based on time of day or other event? >>> >>> For instance, during the day a castle contains royal guards, no >>> wondering monsters, etc. But at night, interior map is >>> replaced with ghosts and other nasties. Or, a dungeon in a >>> tower next the sea floods every afternoon because of high tide. >>> >> >> >> >> Theres a RFE on the tracker, for a time-based connected object. >> Which could be used for this. >> >> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1318639&group_id=13833&atid=363833 >> >> >> > > The problem is that the same issue that applies with different exit > pointer based on quest completion has. > > EG, player 1 enters time based map. Player 2 decides to join him > 10 minutes later - unfortunately, in that time period, the event > time has changed, so player 2 is now on a different map. > > I will say I'd prefer the idea of time based rather than player > based events. But trying to keep in synchronized seems odd. > > Now I guess in theory the same thing can happen for random maps - a > player could be deep in a random map set in which the first few > maps have reset, so that a new player gets a different set of maps. > > > I think for time based stuff, more likekly, different information > given out by time (eg, NPC abc says something at night, not at > day). And maps being open/closed by time make sense (the shop is > closed, etc). > > > _______________________________________________ crossfire mailing > list crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > From lalo at exoweb.net Fri Oct 14 04:24:31 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Fri Oct 14 04:27:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Smooth movement Message-ID: Ok, I searched for the original thread to ressurect it, but couldn't find it, so here goes a new one. A few weeks ago, when Mark started talking about his new movement code, there was some talk about "smoothing" movement - drawing the image in partial locations between tiles, so that movement doesn't look so jerky. The problem is that everything happens in a tick-based timeframe, so until you move, there's no way to be sure where you will be next turn; and starting "smooth" movement only after you already moved would be worse, because for some time, you would seem to be in one tile while you're actually already on the next one (if "you" are a monster, this would cause players to shoot at the wrong tile). End summary. Now, the solution to this came to me two days ago just before sleep. I'm surprised nobody came up with it before. Although it has *serious* implications - it changes drastically the way the game works - but then it means it's the best time to introduce it now, together with Mark's other changes. And I think it's a tangible improvement. Basically, it consists on accepting "input" (whether it's actual input from the user, or a decision from the monster AI code) at a point in time half a tick before when the object actually gets its tick. Think of that as neural impulse delay. So, assuming the character was still then moves south, and its speeed is such that it gets one tick at each T (T being global ticks): Time | input | face position | actual position ------------------------------------------------------------------------- T | - | X,Y | X,Y T+5 | move south | X,Y | X,Y T+6 | - | X,Y+0.1 | X,Y T+7 | - | X,Y+0.2 | X,Y T+8 | - | X,Y+0.3 | X,Y T+9 | - | X,Y+0.4 | X,Y T+10 | - | X,Y+0.5 | X,Y+1 (TICK) | (exactly on the line b/w tiles) | T+11 | - | X,Y+0.6 | X,Y+1 T+12 | - | X,Y+0.7 | X,Y+1 T+13 | - | X,Y+0.8 | X,Y+1 T+14 | - | X,Y+0.9 | X,Y+1 T+15 | move south | X,Y+1 | X,Y+1 T+16 | - | X,Y+1.1 | X,Y+1 ... In a future version, this logic could also be useful for weapon-swing animations, attack sounds, etc etc. Does that make sense? best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From delbd at oma.be Fri Oct 14 04:53:25 2005 From: delbd at oma.be (David Delbecq) Date: Fri Oct 14 04:53:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Smooth movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434F8015.8060700@oma.be> Well, i did not play with smooth movement, but according to what i know, deciding *when* in the movement the player is on next square has never been the major issue. Major issues are, i think: 1) All drawing code on client assume a per square position, not half positions of character, need a very big redo on drawing routines 2) All server assume objects on a square, need additionnal code to manage transitions between square of objects. This is not trivial! Espcially for monster following character. The can't go on a square until player left it. however if at moment of tick player is 30% away, monster can't follow the player because square still in use. Also, what happen if after 30% movement destination square is now blocked? Rollback? Will end in graphical artefact, you need a 'reseration' systemn when you start movement, but then this may end in technically player using 2 squares at a time when moving. 3) protocol was never made to send partial positions. Your suggestion just resolve some trivial question on when do player is in a square, this is trivial imho. Deep problems are above :) Lalo Martins a ?crit : > Ok, I searched for the original thread to ressurect it, but > couldn't find it, so here goes a new one. > > A few weeks ago, when Mark started talking about his new movement > code, there was some talk about "smoothing" movement - drawing the > image in partial locations between tiles, so that movement doesn't > look so jerky. > > The problem is that everything happens in a tick-based timeframe, > so until you move, there's no way to be sure where you will be next > turn; and starting "smooth" movement only after you already moved > would be worse, because for some time, you would seem to be in one > tile while you're actually already on the next one (if "you" are a > monster, this would cause players to shoot at the wrong tile). > > End summary. > > Now, the solution to this came to me two days ago just before > sleep. I'm surprised nobody came up with it before. Although it > has *serious* implications - it changes drastically the way the > game works - but then it means it's the best time to introduce it > now, together with Mark's other changes. And I think it's a > tangible improvement. > > Basically, it consists on accepting "input" (whether it's actual > input from the user, or a decision from the monster AI code) at a > point in time half a tick before when the object actually gets its > tick. Think of that as neural impulse delay. > > So, assuming the character was still then moves south, and its > speeed is such that it gets one tick at each T (T being global > ticks): > > Time | input | face position | actual > position > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > T | - | X,Y | X,Y T+5 > | move south | X,Y | X,Y T+6 | - > | X,Y+0.1 | X,Y T+7 | - | > X,Y+0.2 | X,Y T+8 | - | > X,Y+0.3 | X,Y T+9 | - | > X,Y+0.4 | X,Y T+10 | - | > X,Y+0.5 | X,Y+1 (TICK) | > (exactly on the line b/w tiles) | T+11 | - | X,Y+0.6 > | X,Y+1 T+12 | - | X,Y+0.7 | > X,Y+1 T+13 | - | X,Y+0.8 | > X,Y+1 T+14 | - | X,Y+0.9 | > X,Y+1 T+15 | move south | X,Y+1 | > X,Y+1 T+16 | - | X,Y+1.1 | > X,Y+1 ... > > In a future version, this logic could also be useful for > weapon-swing animations, attack sounds, etc etc. > > Does that make sense? > > best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem > impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the > will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ > mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom > http://www.gnu.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ crossfire mailing > list crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 08:42:29 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Fri Oct 14 08:43:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051014134229.95158.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Sounds good, should be easy enough to set the proper permissions on the ground arches (2 hrs with nedit, 2 min with regex). --- Mark Wedel wrote: > > So I finished up the new movement code and did > some basic testing, and it > seems to work. > > In basic terms, now multiple move types (walking, > fly_low, fly_high, > swimming). Spaces can block some or all of those. > > For compatibility, no_pass 1 blocks all of those. > > My basic test shows this work. One issue: > > Movement blockage has to be explicitly set. In > other words, unless something > on the space explicity says you can't use movement > type X, you can use it. > > This matches previous behaviour, and for the most > part, works fine. > > The issue here is swimming. As things sound now, > you can't swim in the ocean > or rivers, because they have no_pass 1. However, > since pretty much all outdoor > spaces don't set anything, it means you can 'swim' > through the desert. > > right now, this doesn't have any relevant meaning > - there is no way to get > swimming movement type. One issue if you could is > that slow_move (old field) > only slows down walking, not flying or swimming. > > It seems to me the proper way to fix this is to > set all ground objects to have > move_block 8, so you can't swim through desert, > forests, etc. > > Any other thoughts? Notes? Questions? > > Also, feel free to try this out on my server: > > tavern.santa-clara.ca.us > > Do note this server is really only up for this > testing. I put a building next > to the inn in scorn that has some test cases. > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 10:14:01 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Fri Oct 14 10:16:01 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> Message-ID: <20051014151401.14775.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Perhapse an override 1 flag would be good, that way if anything conflicts between items of the same type then the override 1 arch wins, if there are more then 1 overrides that conflict the most restrictive arch with override 1 wins. --- David Delbecq wrote: > 2 questions > > - can we think about allowing player to swim in > non-deep sea (near scorn > port) and if so, make this movements very low (for > geographical reasons) > - If we suppose you can't swim in on grass (obvious) > using move_block 8, > what about grass with a piece of river above?? > Tricky? that's because > this flag is a per tile flag while it is set at the > object level. > Perhaps we could start start, apart from this patch, > a discusion on the > opportunity > to move every square flag away from object to the > map square itself. Or > perhaps creating a mapsquare_flag object which > override any map flag > that could be set by other object. This > mapsquare_flag object could be > present not as an object but a a square properties > in the editor. > > 1 Suggestion > Is it faisable with current code to create a square > that could be > traversed by small creature but not by big one. > eg: mice, ants, dogs, cats, and 'crouched' humanoids > could get thru but > not any thing bigger? > other example: only mice, ants, dogs > Other suggestion: a square that need a minimu size > to get thru. Eg a 1m > wall mice can't pass while any humanoid can > naturally climb it? :D > > > Any way, good job Mark, > > Regards, > Tchize > > > Mark Wedel a ?crit : > > > > > So I finished up the new movement code and did > some basic testing, > > and it > > seems to work. > > > > In basic terms, now multiple move types (walking, > fly_low, fly_high, > > swimming). Spaces can block some or all of those. > > > > For compatibility, no_pass 1 blocks all of those. > > > > My basic test shows this work. One issue: > > > > Movement blockage has to be explicitly set. In > other words, unless > > something on the space explicity says you can't > use movement type X, > > you can use it. > > > > This matches previous behaviour, and for the most > part, works fine. > > > > The issue here is swimming. As things sound now, > you can't swim in > > the ocean or rivers, because they have no_pass 1. > However, since > > pretty much all outdoor spaces don't set anything, > it means you can > > 'swim' through the desert. > > > > right now, this doesn't have any relevant meaning > - there is no way > > to get swimming movement type. One issue if you > could is that > > slow_move (old field) only slows down walking, not > flying or swimming. > > > > It seems to me the proper way to fix this is to > set all ground > > objects to have move_block 8, so you can't swim > through desert, > > forests, etc. > > > > Any other thoughts? Notes? Questions? > > > > Also, feel free to try this out on my server: > > > > tavern.santa-clara.ca.us > > > > Do note this server is really only up for this > testing. I put a > > building next to the inn in scorn that has some > test cases. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From cerzeo at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 12:27:52 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Fri Oct 14 12:28:03 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic Message-ID: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> I was playing Ultima Online much time, and i have an idea from this game. At Ultima Online, the players need reagents to cast spells, for example, to cast "lightning" it's required to have 1 mandrake root, 1 nightshade flower and 1 black pearl, and each spell has his own reagents convination, but there are only 6 or 7 reagents. In ultima online they was bloodmoss, black pearl, mandake root, spider silk, and two more that i do not remember at now. I was thinking that you can try this thing, and this way will balance the sorcerers power and more people will try warriors and other and not only sorcerers Can you set a test server to test this. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From eracclists at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 14 12:56:43 2005 From: eracclists at bellsouth.net (ERACC) Date: Fri Oct 14 12:58:02 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> On Friday 14 October 2005 12:27 pm Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > I was playing Ultima Online much time, and i have an idea from this game. > At Ultima Online, the players need reagents to cast spells, for > example, to cast "lightning" it's required to have 1 mandrake root, 1 > nightshade flower and 1 black pearl, and each spell has his own > reagents convination, but there are only 6 or 7 reagents. In ultima > online they was bloodmoss, black pearl, mandake root, spider silk, and > two more that i do not remember at now. [...] Needing items to cast spells is more along the lines of witchcraft than sorcerous magic (read some Steven Brust to see what I mean). In CF the magic system seems to be sorcerous based. The witchcraft based magic is more akin to alchemy in CF. Gene Alexander -- Linux era4.eracc.UUCP 2.6.8.1-12mdk i686 12:49:37 up 149 days, 13:30, 9 users, load average: 0.13, 0.11, 0.13 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eCS, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer & UnixWare resellers From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Oct 14 13:02:58 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri Oct 14 13:04:02 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <434FF2D2.1020909@laposte.net> See also : http://forum.metalforge.net/viewtopic.php?t=1274 thread on the forum on this exact subject :) Ryo From brenlally at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:48:04 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Fri Oct 14 15:02:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510141248m201f0f02w9b371a1086ce037f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, ERACC wrote: > Needing items to cast spells is more along the lines of witchcraft > than sorcerous magic (read some Steven Brust > to see what I mean). In CF the magic system seems to be sorcerous > based. The witchcraft based magic is more akin to alchemy in CF. Why do you take this to be your reference point? Real world magic is mostly con tricks and illusion anyway, and there is therefore no 'correct' way (consistent with the real world) to model the invocation of magic in a game. Using items for spells to my mind is as such more an issue of game balance than adherence to the fictional work of some random novelist. Anyway, the old amiga RPG worlds of legend (I never did win that game...) used a similar system, and I think runescape does too. If you really want to get around the issue of carrying ingredients, have it incorporated into diet. - define certain magic ingredients and have food be able to contain them. eating that food would then increment a counter stored as an invisible object on the player (or directly on the player struct - that would be faster in combat). Then decrease that back to zero every few hours (as the ingredients break down in the players body), or whenever a spell is cast. For extra effect, there could be variant sources of these foods which did nasty things, like permanently reduce stats. Then there would be a trade off (nice spells, or not needing to use more stat potions) In terms of game balance, spell ingredients /could/ be useful. Especially if they were created with alchemy/woodsman skills at high level. - That skill could then become essential to the ongoing usefulness of a wizard, and high level spells might be used a lot less if they were sufficiently expensive. (probably that means not using comet or meteor swarm against everything around - burning hands and firebolt could be useful even at higher levels if they cost much less) From brenlally at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:48:38 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Fri Oct 14 15:12:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510141248m2e8a7cf2l23ef9361a95ab1f7@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, ERACC wrote: > Needing items to cast spells is more along the lines of witchcraft > than sorcerous magic (read some Steven Brust > to see what I mean). In CF the magic system seems to be sorcerous > based. The witchcraft based magic is more akin to alchemy in CF. Why do you take this to be your reference point? Real world magic is mostly con tricks and illusion anyway, and there is therefore no 'correct' way (consistent with the real world) to model the invocation of magic in a game. Using items for spells to my mind is as such more an issue of game balance than adherence to the fictional work of some random novelist. Anyway, the old amiga RPG worlds of legend (I never did win that game...) used a similar system, and I think runescape does too. If you really want to get around the issue of carrying ingredients, have it incorporated into diet. - define certain magic ingredients and have food be able to contain them. eating that food would then increment a counter stored as an invisible object on the player (or directly on the player struct - that would be faster in combat). Then decrease that back to zero every few hours (as the ingredients break down in the players body), or whenever a spell is cast. For extra effect, there could be variant sources of these foods which did nasty things, like permanently reduce stats. Then there would be a trade off (nice spells, or not needing to use more stat potions) In terms of game balance, spell ingredients /could/ be useful. Especially if they were created with alchemy/woodsman skills at high level. - That skill could then become essential to the ongoing usefulness of a wizard, and high level spells might be used a lot less if they were sufficiently expensive. (probably that means not using comet or meteor swarm against everything around - burning hands and firebolt could be useful even at higher levels if they cost much less) From brenlally at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:46:12 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Fri Oct 14 15:16:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510141246v7ae0e73fi7aa9bd30d4cfc72f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, ERACC wrote: > Needing items to cast spells is more along the lines of witchcraft > than sorcerous magic (read some Steven Brust > to see what I mean). In CF the magic system seems to be sorcerous > based. The witchcraft based magic is more akin to alchemy in CF. Why do you take this to be your reference point? Real world magic is mostly con tricks and illusion anyway, and there is therefore no 'correct' way (consistent with the real world) to model the invocation of magic in a game. Using items for spells to my mind is as such more an issue of game balance than adherence to the fictional work of some random novelist. Anyway, the old amiga RPG worlds of legend (I never did win that game...) used a similar system, and I think runescape does too. If you really want to get around the issue of carrying ingredients, have it incorporated into diet. - define certain magic ingredients and have food be able to contain them. eating that food would then increment a counter stored as an invisible object on the player (or directly on the player struct - that would be faster in combat). Then decrease that back to zero every few hours (as the ingredients break down in the players body), or whenever a spell is cast. For extra effect, there could be variant sources of these foods which did nasty things, like permanently reduce stats. Then there would be a trade off (nice spells, or not needing to use more stat potions) In terms of game balance, spell ingredients /could/ be useful. Especially if they were created with alchemy/woodsman skills at high level. - That skill could then become essential to the ongoing usefulness of a wizard, and high level spells might be used a lot less if they were sufficiently expensive. (probably that means not using comet or meteor swarm against everything around - burning hands and firebolt could be useful even at higher levels if they cost much less) From eracclists at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 14 15:35:02 2005 From: eracclists at bellsouth.net (ERACC) Date: Fri Oct 14 15:36:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510141248m201f0f02w9b371a1086ce037f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> <7903f03c0510141248m201f0f02w9b371a1086ce037f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510141535.02352.eracclists@bellsouth.net> On Friday 14 October 2005 02:48 pm Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/14/05, ERACC wrote: > > Needing items to cast spells is more along the lines of witchcraft > > than sorcerous magic (read some Steven Brust > > to see what I mean). In CF the magic system seems to be sorcerous > > based. The witchcraft based magic is more akin to alchemy in CF. > > Why do you take this to be your reference point? Why not? It bears up my argument. > Real world magic is mostly con tricks and illusion anyway, and there > is therefore no 'correct' way (consistent with the real world) to > model the invocation of magic in a game. Heh, "real magic" is ALL con tricks and illusion. Or it is a science advanced enough to appear magical. ;-) "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke > Using items for spells to my mind is as such more an issue of game > balance than adherence to the fictional work of some random novelist. He's not random. I chose him specifically because I agree with his fantasy ideas on "witchcraft" vs. "sorcery" and his writing that down in his novels keeps me from having to reiterate it here. As for "game balance" ... well, I've not ever been fond of that term as it usually means nerfing or disabling something I have found fun to use in the game. Same goes for "game economy". It's a fantasy game, it *should* be easy to get insanely "wealthy" once one knows how. If I want things to be difficult and to have little money I have that in real life. [... stuff about other games...] I don't play other fantasy games, I play crossfire. [...] > In terms of game balance, spell ingredients /could/ be useful. > Especially if they were created with alchemy/woodsman skills at high > level. - That skill could then become essential to the ongoing > usefulness of a wizard, and high level spells might be used a lot less > if they were sufficiently expensive. (probably that means not using > comet or meteor swarm against everything around - burning hands and > firebolt could be useful even at higher levels if they cost much less) I'm reading "game balance" but thinking "game complexity". I think this will just make the game more complex. It is already quite complex now and takes plenty of time to learn to play well enough to survive to a high level (unless someone just gives a noob everything to survive and then helps the noob level up, which we all know does happen). If you want to do this because it is a coding challenge, yeah, I do understand that. :-) Gene Alexander -- Linux era4.eracc.UUCP 2.6.8.1-12mdk i686 15:14:32 up 149 days, 15:55, 9 users, load average: 0.24, 0.24, 0.09 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eCS, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer & UnixWare resellers From brenlally at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 19:35:04 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Fri Oct 14 19:36:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <200510141535.02352.eracclists@bellsouth.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <200510141256.43786.eracclists@bellsouth.net> <7903f03c0510141248m201f0f02w9b371a1086ce037f@mail.gmail.com> <200510141535.02352.eracclists@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510141735g69a781b5uaa67416378ea6de@mail.gmail.com> I'll try to only post to the list once this time..... On 10/14/05, ERACC wrote: > He's not random. I chose him specifically because I agree with his > fantasy ideas on "witchcraft" vs. "sorcery" and his writing that down > in his novels keeps me from having to reiterate it here. It might do if it was someone I had heard of..... > As for "game > balance" ... well, I've not ever been fond of that term as it > usually means nerfing or disabling something I have found fun to use > in the game. If by 'fun' you mean unequivocably superior to all other options to solve the same problem, then yes. Almost all games, from a simple game of draughts to more sophistacated games like risk or D&D are based around making interesting choices, when the best choice to make is unclear and requires some combination of skill, luck, experience and planning. A choice that has an obvious or trivial best solution is null. It doesn't matter in game terms and is merely an impediment to the enjoyment of the game. I am not convinced that currently choice of spells (particularly in combat) is an interesting choice most of the time (it tends to be meteor swarm, if that doesn't work icestorm or banisment (if undead or the right race). Only very rarely are any other spells used, at least IME. > Same goes for "game economy". It's a fantasy game, it > *should* be easy to get insanely "wealthy" once one knows how. If I > want things to be difficult and to have little money I have that in > real life. Maybe but you shouldn't get that at level 1. It should rather be something that is gradually accumulated, and requires a degree of challenge, at least initially. If that is absent, then money is made worthless. > I'm reading "game balance" but thinking "game complexity". I think > this will just make the game more complex. It is already quite > complex now and takes plenty of time to learn to play well enough to > survive to a high level This doesn't neccessarily have to make the game more complex. It would be quite possible to remove spell points at the same time, and with it the complexity of power crystals, power potions, and magic stats. Especially if the amount of each ingredient it was possible to stockpile was limited (to go back to my previous idea about incorporating it into food, a point at which you are told 'your body is incapable of holding any more of this' likewise paths could be removed, rather have attunements to the individual ingredients (so that you need twice as much, or half the number for certain spells). To my mind that would be a /simpler/ magic system than the one that exists currently. The question then would be whether it is worth changing to. That is a difficult question to resolve (which is why it is a topic of discussion here). From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 20:16:02 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Fri Oct 14 20:16:09 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510141735g69a781b5uaa67416378ea6de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051015011602.25627.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Please don't make the magic system less complex. Please. We can add witchcraft if it is desired, new spells will be needed (turn to frog, etc). Also in some areas witchcraft may land a person in jail :) --- Brendan Lally wrote: > I'll try to only post to the list once this > time..... > > On 10/14/05, ERACC wrote: > > He's not random. I chose him specifically because > I agree with his > > fantasy ideas on "witchcraft" vs. "sorcery" and > his writing that down > > in his novels keeps me from having to reiterate it > here. > > It might do if it was someone I had heard of..... > > > As for "game > > balance" ... well, I've not ever been fond of that > term as it > > usually means nerfing or disabling something I > have found fun to use > > in the game. > > If by 'fun' you mean unequivocably superior to all > other options to > solve the same problem, then yes. Almost all games, > from a simple game > of draughts to more sophistacated games like risk or > D&D are based > around making interesting choices, when the best > choice to make is > unclear and requires some combination of skill, > luck, experience and > planning. A choice that has an obvious or trivial > best solution is > null. It doesn't matter in game terms and is merely > an impediment to > the enjoyment of the game. I am not convinced that > currently choice of > spells (particularly in combat) is an interesting > choice most of the > time (it tends to be meteor swarm, if that doesn't > work icestorm or > banisment (if undead or the right race). Only very > rarely are any > other spells used, at least IME. > > > Same goes for "game economy". It's a fantasy game, > it > > *should* be easy to get insanely "wealthy" once > one knows how. If I > > want things to be difficult and to have little > money I have that in > > real life. > > Maybe but you shouldn't get that at level 1. It > should rather be > something that is gradually accumulated, and > requires a degree of > challenge, at least initially. If that is absent, > then money is made > worthless. > > > I'm reading "game balance" but thinking "game > complexity". I think > > this will just make the game more complex. It is > already quite > > complex now and takes plenty of time to learn to > play well enough to > > survive to a high level > > This doesn't neccessarily have to make the game more > complex. It would > be quite possible to remove spell points at the same > time, and with it > the complexity of power crystals, power potions, and > magic stats. > > Especially if the amount of each ingredient it was > possible to > stockpile was limited (to go back to my previous > idea about > incorporating it into food, a point at which you are > told 'your body > is incapable of holding any more of this' > > likewise paths could be removed, rather have > attunements to the > individual ingredients (so that you need twice as > much, or half the > number for certain spells). > > To my mind that would be a /simpler/ magic system > than the one that > exists currently. The question then would be whether > it is worth > changing to. That is a difficult question to resolve > (which is why it > is a topic of discussion here). > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 20:16:36 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Fri Oct 14 20:18:09 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me from #crossfire Message-ID: <20051015011636.92046.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Topic. Women's Rights Delenda Est. __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cerzeo at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 21:16:35 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Fri Oct 14 21:18:11 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <20051015011602.25627.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7903f03c0510141735g69a781b5uaa67416378ea6de@mail.gmail.com> <20051015011602.25627.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510141916t1925175p@mail.gmail.com> Or U can create a new spell type called something like "Reagented Spells". This will be something like Evocation, Sorcery, Summoning or so, but this spells needs then a reagent convination, but I prefer that all spells need a reagent convination. This way will made that spellcasters must search the reagents (or buy then), and made game more balanced. I think the "food effect" is a good idea too. Not only poisoned food, but depending your race (better than your class [proffesion]) some food may do some spacial damage, not only like zombies corpses with the dragon race. On this way you must be carefull with your "diet" -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 22:07:56 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Fri Oct 14 22:44:39 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510141916t1925175p@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051015030756.17779.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> I also like the food idea. Perhapse if you don't follow the correct diet then your SP stays at 1/2 of what it could be. --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > Or U can create a new spell type called something > like "Reagented > Spells". This will be something like Evocation, > Sorcery, Summoning or > so, but this spells needs then a reagent > convination, but I prefer > that all spells need a reagent convination. > This way will made that spellcasters must search the > reagents (or buy > then), and made game more balanced. > > I think the "food effect" is a good idea too. Not > only poisoned food, > but depending your race (better than your class > [proffesion]) some > food may do some spacial damage, not only like > zombies corpses with > the dragon race. On this way you must be carefull > with your "diet" > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brenlally at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 23:55:55 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Fri Oct 14 23:56:11 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <20051015030756.17779.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3fa509450510141916t1925175p@mail.gmail.com> <20051015030756.17779.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510142155y1ae4d44ap6230b5cad68f4e42@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > I also like the food idea. Perhapse if you don't > follow the correct diet then your SP stays at 1/2 of > what it could be. hmm, this is a different idea to what I had in mind, but actually has a lot to commend it. maybe even moreso, have all foodstuffs have different stats, and have them affect the player. foods could have a series of different stats, so that eating different types of food would slowly skew a character a little. Eating lots of fat would increase armour and resistances, and decrease speed and ac. Eating lots of sugar would increase dex and Con, but reduce intelligence and power and make spellcasting failure more common. Eating foods with E-numbers in could increase spellpoints and give spellpath attunements, but also have randomly bad effects (confusion, blindness, paralysis, death) Drinking some alcohol would increase Cha and cold resistance but reduce Dex, drinking more would reduce it, and create a (non-transmittable) illness - hangover. From yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com Sat Oct 15 01:50:36 2005 From: yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com (Yann Chachkoff) Date: Sat Oct 15 01:52:14 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Smooth movement Message-ID: <1129359036.c807ad9cyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> > Basically, it consists on accepting "input" (whether it's actual input from the user, or a decision from the monster AI code) at a point in time half a tick before when the object actually gets its tick. Think of that as neural impulse delay. > >Does that make sense? It does. But I think that's just the first issue of the whole problem, and not the most complex one to solve, unfortunately. The first issue is with the protocol itself. Currently, the server basically sends the client a "gird of objects" that are strictly square-positioned. What about the "transitioning" objects (those who are in the middle of a move, at a position like (X+0.3;Y)) ? Two solutions: - Either you do not strictly synchronize the client with the server. You just send the same messages that are currently sent (thus no "transitioning" marker of any sort), let the client compute the supposed position of the character and backtrack if necessary when the server sends the next map update. You'll have to face synchronization problems at some point, obviously. - Or you include synchronization messages in the protocol - but then, you'll have to make drastic changes to it, which will require a complete redo on the redrawing side of the client. The second issue that's not really adressed is about what I call the "square conflict problem". Suppose that your character attempts to move on a square S, but that a monster attempts exactly the same thing. With the current square-by-square gaming system, there's no problem: the faster one is moved on the square. Now, with a smooth move system, it means that you'll see one character being suddenly stopped at the edge of S, while the other is moving into it. It could lead to the rather strange situation of a character being hit by a monster that's not even right against you. I think that the question of knowing where the character is on the map while transitioning is a rather simple one; I see the major issues more in the client/server sync and with the current communication protocol, which doesn't seem to be easily adaptable to handle a "smooth moves" situation. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 15 03:12:44 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 15 03:16:15 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Unban me from #crossfire In-Reply-To: <20051015011636.92046.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051015011636.92046.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4350B9FC.6020704@laposte.net> > Women's Rights Delenda Est. Translation for people who don't speak latin or are too lazy to google: Women's Rights must be destroyed. From yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com Sat Oct 15 05:21:05 2005 From: yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com (Yann Chachkoff) Date: Sat Oct 15 05:22:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Crossfire Plugin System v2.0 Message-ID: <1129371665.c7f35cbcyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> The small rewrite of the Crossfire Plugin subsystem is nearing completion - finally. I think that a couple of explanations are necessary. Why ? ----- The main reason to answer the "why a rewrite" is that the older way of managing plugins was simply too complex and obscure. Using the CFParm structure to pass arguments between the server and the plugins initially seemed a good idea - but it came at the price of an heavy-to-write, heavy-to-use system. Having to fill in a table of CFParms and to ready a return CFParm structure is counterintuitive to what most C programmers usually do. What will change and how ? -------------------------- 1. Code Internals. The rewrite somewhat simplifies the code writing. Basically, most server functions are now exposed with the following prototype: void* cfapi_funct(int* type, ...) type indicates the type of the return value, as defined by constants in include/plugins.h. The arguments are now transmitted using the more conventional va_args mechanism. There is obviously a drawback in that the server now assumes that the correct parameter values are passed by the plugin - but expecting that the plugin developper passes a correct parameter type isn't too much asking IMHO. Moreover, a group of "common server function wrappers" has been written. When a new plugin is being developed, the coder should include those common wrappers in its compilation process. Those ensure that (1) the plugin coder doesn't need to directly call the server callback function pointers and (2) limits the possibility of passing wrong argument types. So for example, instead of having to use the void* cfapi_map_create_path(int* type, ...) callback and taking the risk of passing wrong argument types and having to manually manage typecasts and callback bindings, the plugin coder can call the common wrapper char* cf_get_maps_directory(char* str) and use it without worrying on how the plugin-server communication works. On the server-side, the code is also somewhat simpler, because the CFParm wrapping doesn't exist anymore - calling a plugin event now takes one or two lines, to compare with the dozen (or more) before. 2. Event hooks The second important change is how the events are bound to objects. Previously, plugins used various event_xxx fields in the object to bind. It has a rather annoying drawback: you couldn't bind more than one action to one event (chains of events weren't possible). The new system uses a new archetype type "EVENT"; the map-maker now wraps the binding in an event_xxx *object* that is stored in the inventory of the bound object. It allows to bind several plugins to a single event in a single object. It also removes the need for supplementary fields and makes the event subsystem more consistent with the "everything is an object" motto. 3. Compatibility with v1.0 of the plugin system The v1.0 plugins (there are currently 3) are *not* compatible, even at source level, with the v2.0 interface. There is also no effort made to ensure compatibility with objects bound with the 1.0 event_xxx tags, so map-makers will have to adapt them accordingly. Note that it isn't a lot of work - it isn't as if there were thousands of objects to convert. I could have assured compatibility, but it the work and code complexity it introduced seemed much greater than the work needed to convert the few objects that were using the old system. A potential problem may arise with players owning scripted objects, as those will cease to work. But unless there are *lots* of such cases (which is doubtful), simple manual exchange with newer versions of the objects from the DMs should suffice. What about the current plugins ? -------------------------------- 1. CFPython The CFPython plugin has been rewritten to match the new interface. The occasion to rewrite it has been used to make the CFPython interface cleaner and (hopefully) easier from a Python-coder point-of-view. The most important change is the introduction of Python object types wrapping Crossfire entities (Crossfire Objects, Maps, and Players). Available functions are mostly the same (only those rendered obsolete by the new plugin infrastructure were removed), but they are now properties and methods of Python objects. Examples CFPython.AcquireSpell(target, spell) now becomes target.AcquireSpell(spell). CFPython.GetStrength(who) now becomes who.Str. CFPython.SetStrength(who,val) now becomes who.str = val. The conversion process is rather straightforward and shouldn't cause trouble - it took me an afternoon to convert all scripts supplied in maps-bigworld/python and I'm no Python specialist. 2. The Animator The Animator is currently being rewritten to work with the new plugin interface. Apart from the event-binding procedure, there should be no other change in the way it works. Work on it isn't finished, but shouldn't take years to complete, unlike CFPython :). 3. The Logger The Logger is outdated and already broken for several things. Given that, I think rewriting it from scratch is a better alternative and that's what I'll do next. So no chance that this one will be available in the (hopefully close) CVS submission. Where is the Patch ? Why isn't it in the CVS yet ? -------------------------------------------------- A currently functional patch is available at: http://lauwenmark.f2b.be/project_rottenplug.patch.151005.tar.bz2 It includes a working code against last week's CVS content. Ported maps-bigworld/python content isn't available yet, but should get there pretty soon. Notice that the current patch isn't quite complete: the documentation rewriting isn't finished, and the Custom Commands support isn't available. It should hopefully work as expected in many cases :) Why isn't it in the CVS yet ? Well, probably because this is a rather massive stuff, so that I think it is better to ask first ? Or because I still remember the angry mob knocking at my door with torches and nasty faces with the v1.0 submission :D ? A good reason is that I'm a rather mediocre coder, so I feel more comfortable not rushing some crap of mine and thus breaking the CVS. So now, it is up to you: check that, share thoughts, ask questions, hunt bugs (sure, there are certainly plenty of those, as always with my code :D), etc. Have fun ! From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 15 05:37:36 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 15 05:38:17 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Crossfire Plugin System v2.0 In-Reply-To: <1129371665.c7f35cbcyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> References: <1129371665.c7f35cbcyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <4350DBF0.5030404@laposte.net> Yeah for the rewrite! I haven't checked everything, but I did see previews, so my opinion is to commit, and fix things as issues arise. *gets his char* to const char* spell ready* :) As for breaking compatibility, it isn't too bad imo. As you say, not *that* many player-owned items with scripts, DMs can handle the fix. The only drawback of using items in inventory is that, if you want an archetype to have one (for instance my gps), then you need a special treasure list to make sure it got the hook - but we can live with that. And arguably, if it's something needed at archetype level, it should probably be part of the server core (hum, maybe i should have left my gps code lol). The common plugin part is nice, will make it easier to write other plugins. Kind of like the old libcross, but much cleaner, and more failure-safe (no calling add_string straight!). It can also make many checks - though probably the checks should be on the server side for maximum crash prevention (negative value for a player's Str someone? :p) The Python object system is pretty good, it'll simplify code and make it cleared imo. Ryo From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:28:32 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 11:30:27 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number Message-ID: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> (Before that, sorry for my english, I'm from Spain, and there are some expressions i don't know very well) I was thinking that the MetalForge server can goes faster (or simply save RAM?) reducing the objects in the world. I refer to reduce the number the objects, not monsters. One way to do this is making "corpses-containers", as some CF players disscuss at #crossfire IRC channel. For those who weren't there at October 15, the questions is this: "When a player kill a monster, this monster drops it's loot to the floor, creating on this way some more object. So the idea is that instead the killed monster drop all the loot, only appear it's corpse, and then, when the player "apply" the corpse, this opens like a briefcase or chest, containing all the monster's loot." We have disscussed the way to do this, and like we talk about, the best way is: 1.- Spawn 2.- Create random Loot 3.- Die 4.- Create container 5.- Move loot to container 6.- Put container in monster Well, the idea is reduce the objects over the map/s And this is all. I think this is a good idea.. :) -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 15 11:36:51 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 15 11:38:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43513023.4000407@laposte.net> This won't reduce the number of *server* object, and actually add new objects (one for each dead monster). It will reduce the number of *visible* items, though. Ryo From alex_sch at telus.net Sat Oct 15 11:39:07 2005 From: alex_sch at telus.net (Alex Schultz) Date: Sat Oct 15 11:40:23 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <435130AB.9010003@telus.net> Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: >(Before that, sorry for my english, I'm from Spain, and there are some >expressions i don't know very well) > >I was thinking that the MetalForge server can goes faster (or simply >save RAM?) reducing the objects in the world. I refer to reduce the >number the objects, not monsters. > >One way to do this is making "corpses-containers", as some CF players >disscuss at #crossfire IRC channel. > >For those who weren't there at October 15, the questions is this: > >"When a player kill a monster, this monster drops it's loot to the >floor, creating on this way some more object. So the idea is that >instead the killed monster drop all the loot, only appear it's corpse, >and then, when the player "apply" the corpse, this opens like a >briefcase or chest, containing all the monster's loot." > >We have disscussed the way to do this, and like we talk about, the best way is: >1.- Spawn >2.- Create random Loot >3.- Die >4.- Create container >5.- Move loot to container >6.- Put container in monster > >Well, the idea is reduce the objects over the map/s > >And this is all. I think this is a good idea.. :) > This might be a good idea, however ram usage would actually increase slightly not decrease, though it may have a minor positive performance impact. Alex Schultz From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:47:06 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 11:48:26 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Houses system for guilds Message-ID: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> Hi again!!! I have in CF a party with some more players, but we treat this party as a guild. This is, we have rules, a tribute, ranks, and so on. So we need a place to store all party/guild treasure. I was thinking that U can create a "guilds' city". This is not a new city exactly. This is a (initially) blank map, where each guild can BUY a headcuartee. This "city", can be accesible from a magic portal (teleport) in scorn or navar city. The guildmaster must pay to a map developer the amount estimated, and the the developer will create a new house in this "blank map". Also can be a requisite to be at least 5 members in the guild to build this house. Another way to do this is to create a hall, and here, to set a magic portal to a guild appartament, but this appartament will be the same for each member of the guild. The requisites to enter the hall, can be the same with the "blank map" idea. Personally, i like more the "blank map" idea, because in this way, we can create our own city. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:50:38 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 11:52:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <43513023.4000407@laposte.net> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> <43513023.4000407@laposte.net> Message-ID: <3fa509450510150950l4c86617dv@mail.gmail.com> Ok yes, i refer to reduce the visible objects... Also U can made when a player dies, he leaves a "gravestone-container" with his items in the inventory. This will made players more carefull before try to kill stronger enemyes... This is only a gameplay idea, but the important i think is the "corpses-containers". -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From brenlally at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:55:30 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Sat Oct 15 11:56:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510150955y696b3b97va3c8d9d38fe2a0bf@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > We have disscussed the way to do this, and like we talk about, the best way is: > 1.- Spawn > 2.- Create random Loot > 3.- Die > 4.- Create container > 5.- Move loot to container > 6.- Put container in monster What would you do to the container (cadaver?) after a player 'opens' it? Destroy the container, or leave it there, empty? If the corpses were to remain, then using the dead bodies for storing different equipment could be interesting. I can certainly envision storing large numbers of axes in a goblin. From alex_sch at telus.net Sat Oct 15 12:06:02 2005 From: alex_sch at telus.net (Alex Schultz) Date: Sat Oct 15 12:06:23 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <435136FA.1070505@telus.net> Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: >Hi again!!! > >I have in CF a party with some more players, but we treat this party >as a guild. This is, we have rules, a tribute, ranks, and so on. So we >need a place to store all party/guild treasure. > >I was thinking that U can create a "guilds' city". This is not a new >city exactly. This is a (initially) blank map, where each guild can >BUY a headcuartee. This "city", can be accesible from a magic portal >(teleport) in scorn or navar city. > >The guildmaster must pay to a map developer the amount estimated, and >the the developer will create a new house in this "blank map". Also >can be a requisite to be at least 5 members in the guild to build this >house. > >Another way to do this is to create a hall, and here, to set a magic >portal to a guild appartament, but this appartament will be the same >for each member of the guild. The requisites to enter the hall, can be >the same with the "blank map" idea. > >Personally, i like more the "blank map" idea, because in this way, we >can create our own city > I am working on "buildable land plots", which allow players to build in many/most/all (differing ideas there) in bigworld. Much of this could be done by players via that. (see buildable land plots thread in the mailing list archives) Alex Schultz From brenlally at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 12:06:36 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Sat Oct 15 12:10:23 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510151006t3cad4992qd0b843b7001711eb@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > Personally, i like more the "blank map" idea, because in this way, we > can create our own city. have a read of the thread from this post: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/2005-September/009238.html From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Oct 15 13:34:52 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat Oct 15 13:36:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Crossfire Plugin System v2.0 In-Reply-To: <1129371665.c7f35cbcyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> References: <1129371665.c7f35cbcyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <43514BCC.6070300@laposte.net> While we're at it :) * could we use names more explicit that EVENT_GDEATH and EVENT_GKILL? I'd say EVENT_PLAYER_DEATH and EVENT_KILL, less confusing * EVENT_GKILL takes *two* parameters (what was killed and by who), only one is used in plugin. And parameters should be inverted imo, first what was killed, then by who (seems logical to always send affected item first, then what object affects it imo) Ryo From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 12:10:30 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 15 13:52:01 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510150955y696b3b97va3c8d9d38fe2a0bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051015171030.37403.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> If one's server is lagging because of items then one is running his server on a 286 PS/2 system (if that is even possible). This is a non-problem. --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/15/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros > wrote: > > We have disscussed the way to do this, and like we > talk about, the best way is: > > 1.- Spawn > > 2.- Create random Loot > > 3.- Die > > 4.- Create container > > 5.- Move loot to container > > 6.- Put container in monster > > What would you do to the container (cadaver?) after > a player 'opens' > it? Destroy the container, or leave it there, empty? > > If the corpses were to remain, then using the dead > bodies for storing > different equipment could be interesting. I can > certainly envision > storing large numbers of axes in a goblin. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 14:04:55 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 14:06:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510150955y696b3b97va3c8d9d38fe2a0bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510150955y696b3b97va3c8d9d38fe2a0bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510151204x2d931ef6q@mail.gmail.com> It remains the empty corpse. But you can set any kind of timer wich makes corpse-container dissapear after a concrete time, for example 5 minutes -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From lalo at exoweb.net Sat Oct 15 14:53:39 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Sat Oct 15 14:56:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The idea seems neat, BUT, I have to wonder if you are aware of the existing guild system in Crossfire. From the sounds of it, the existing guilds solve your problem well enough. best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 16:05:05 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 16:06:26 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: References: <3fa509450510150947q72bb29abu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510151405l514c02e6s@mail.gmail.com> I know guilds of Crossfire, but i saw that all the altars are already taken... I refer to the altar in the Guilds House at Scorn. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 16:30:07 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 16:30:26 2005 Subject: [Crossfire] Installation frontend (Linux/Unix only) Message-ID: <3fa509450510151430g60eeff53o@mail.gmail.com> I like so much Crossfire, and I like and want to colaborate the project. The inconvenient is that i don't know how to do maps nor Python programming. But i know Tcl/Tk and some Visual Basic Programming. I know very well how Tcl/Tk is, and i use GAMBAS to create Visual Basic like programs, so i can create a frontend (using better Tcl/Tk) to install Crossfire under Linux/Unix systems. This frontend will have two options: 1.- Install in base of a rpm Crossfire packet OR 2.- Compile the Crossfire source code. The problem is that i do not how to "construct" the rpm packet. Initially, the program will be only a frontend, this is, the program will call the appropiate Linux/Unix commands to install the rpm or compile the source. This will help newbie users install Crossfire If you are interested, I can start in two or three days and I can finish a test version (ALPHA?) in three days. Maybe some more time, because of the university studies don't leave me much time. I will do I can. Salutes!! -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 18:02:19 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sat Oct 15 18:03:23 2005 Subject: [Crossfire] Installation frontend (Linux/Unix only) In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510151430g60eeff53o@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510151430g60eeff53o@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510151602k74df1d87s@mail.gmail.com> I like so much Crossfire, and I like and want to colaborate the project. The inconvenient is that i don't know how to do maps nor Python programming. But i know Tcl/Tk and some Visual Basic Programming. I know very well how Tcl/Tk is, and i use GAMBAS to create Visual Basic like programs, so i can create a frontend (using better Tcl/Tk) to install Crossfire under Linux/Unix systems. This frontend will have two options: 1.- Install in base of a rpm Crossfire packet OR 2.- Compile the Crossfire source code. The problem is that i do not how to "construct" the rpm packet. Initially, the program will be only a frontend, this is, the program will call the appropiate Linux/Unix commands to install the rpm or compile the source. This will help newbie users install Crossfire If you are interested, I can start in two or three days and I can finish a test version (ALPHA?) in three days. Maybe some more time, because of the university studies don't leave me much time. I will do I can. Salutes!! -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From brenlally at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 19:09:45 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Sat Oct 15 19:10:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <20051015171030.37403.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7903f03c0510150955y696b3b97va3c8d9d38fe2a0bf@mail.gmail.com> <20051015171030.37403.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510151709h24698e63re3e535642019098e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > If one's server is lagging because of items then one > is running his server on a 286 PS/2 system (if that is > even possible). This is a non-problem. Well, to be fair, on the occasions where servers do slow down, it tends to be from spell objects (normally coupled with directors). This is lagging 'because of items'. However I would agree that treasure drops from monsters aren't normally an issue in this case. Any benefit there would be would be to bandwidth usage, not server memory usage. However, even there, unless/until the number of faces visible per square is increased, the difference is likely to be minor (2 objects instead of 3, if there are multiple items dropped, and if there were nothing on the floor already) From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 20:40:26 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 15 21:03:54 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510150950l4c86617dv@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051016014026.95239.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Damoinum has corpse containers. /me doesn't think it's a good idea. --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > Ok yes, i refer to reduce the visible objects... > > Also U can made when a player dies, he leaves a > "gravestone-container" > with his items in the inventory. > > This will made players more carefull before try to > kill stronger enemyes... > > This is only a gameplay idea, but the important i > think is the > "corpses-containers". > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 20:43:20 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 15 21:03:58 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510151405l514c02e6s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051016014320.77903.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Perhapse the solution it to add more guilds? We could make the new ones python guilds (rather then redoing the current guilds). Perhapse these new ones should have their guild buy house in navar or brest? --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > I know guilds of Crossfire, but i saw that all the > altars are already taken... > I refer to the altar in the Guilds House at Scorn. > > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mwedel at sonic.net Sun Oct 16 00:11:10 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun Oct 16 00:10:34 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <435130AB.9010003@telus.net> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> <435130AB.9010003@telus.net> Message-ID: <4351E0EE.70902@sonic.net> Alex Schultz wrote: > Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > >> (Before that, sorry for my english, I'm from Spain, and there are some >> expressions i don't know very well) >> >> I was thinking that the MetalForge server can goes faster (or simply >> save RAM?) reducing the objects in the world. I refer to reduce the >> number the objects, not monsters. >> >> One way to do this is making "corpses-containers", as some CF players >> disscuss at #crossfire IRC channel. >> >> For those who weren't there at October 15, the questions is this: >> >> "When a player kill a monster, this monster drops it's loot to the >> floor, creating on this way some more object. So the idea is that >> instead the killed monster drop all the loot, only appear it's corpse, >> and then, when the player "apply" the corpse, this opens like a >> briefcase or chest, containing all the monster's loot." >> >> We have disscussed the way to do this, and like we talk about, the >> best way is: >> 1.- Spawn >> 2.- Create random Loot >> 3.- Die >> 4.- Create container >> 5.- Move loot to container >> 6.- Put container in monster >> >> Well, the idea is reduce the objects over the map/s >> >> And this is all. I think this is a good idea.. :) >> > This might be a good idea, however ram usage would actually increase > slightly not decrease, though it may have a minor positive performance > impact. It would certainly clean up the maps some (don't have piles of hundreds of objects) auto pickup code would perhaps need to get redone to handle those, but not that big a deal. Taking a look at the metalforge server, which last crashed tuesday, it currently has 113 MB allocated to it. IMO, by modern standards, that really isn't that much. It could help performance in these ways: 1) When a creature dies, since its objects go into a death container, no need to check to see if they merge with other objects on the map, etc. 2) Potentially less objects to check when a spell goes over the space, etc. That said, #2 is tricky - things like burning hands should probably still have a chance to burn up those objects? Downsides: 1) Monsters that pick up loot would now need to do more work (instead of the objects of 5 dead creatures merging, they would be all seperate, instead of the common objects merging. 2) point 2 from above- fire effects may now have more objects to check for destruction because they don't merge. All that said, I'd think this should be more driven by actually thinking this is a good or bad feature, not memory or performance reasons. From mwedel at sonic.net Sun Oct 16 00:15:48 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun Oct 16 00:14:33 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <20051016014320.77903.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051016014320.77903.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4351E204.2060301@sonic.net> Mitch Obrian wrote: > Perhapse the solution it to add more guilds? We could > make the new ones python guilds (rather then redoing > the current guilds). Perhapse these new ones should > have their guild buy house in navar or brest? Random question - do guilds in any way limit membership of people to a single guild? If so, that should probably be done. It could also be interesting to add race or class based guilds (only dwarves can become members, only wizards, etc). This might also help out availability of some guilds (and perhaps at the same time, anyone that qualifies can get a basic membership to those guilds). From mwedel at sonic.net Sun Oct 16 00:29:50 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun Oct 16 00:28:33 2005 Subject: [Crossfire] Installation frontend (Linux/Unix only) In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510151602k74df1d87s@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510151430g60eeff53o@mail.gmail.com> <3fa509450510151602k74df1d87s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4351E54E.3020103@sonic.net> Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > I like so much Crossfire, and I like and want to colaborate the > project. The inconvenient is that i don't know how to do maps nor > Python programming. But i know Tcl/Tk and some Visual Basic > Programming. > > I know very well how Tcl/Tk is, and i use GAMBAS to create Visual > Basic like programs, so i can create a frontend (using better Tcl/Tk) > to install Crossfire under Linux/Unix systems. > This frontend will have two options: > > 1.- Install in base of a rpm Crossfire packet > OR > 2.- Compile the Crossfire source code. I'm uncertain on the need to do either of those. I could be wrong, but my perception is that crossfire isn't really any more difficult to install than lots of other programs. For precompiled RPMS, just a simple rpm -i is all that is needed. If they are using a machine that takes RPMs, I'd think that should be something they can handle. Server is a little more complicated if you want to compile it, but once again, probably better to just have them use the rpm. OTOH, I don't think a binary version of the server has been release lately for unix. But the server does use the standard autoconf build process, so pretty basic (users should just need to follow the INSTALL guide). rpms are build with the rpmbuild command. From mwedel at sonic.net Sun Oct 16 01:00:42 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun Oct 16 01:00:34 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Smooth movement In-Reply-To: <1129359036.c807ad9cyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> References: <1129359036.c807ad9cyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <4351EC8A.3060606@sonic.net> Has anyone looked at how the commercial games do this? I'd basically imagine you want to shrink the sleep time to be short enough to correspond for each pixel the object will move. In that way, each time the objects move, you check to see if it is too close to another. Thus, two players approaching, you'd check really every 1/32 tick to see if they are too close. Every half tick I think still has the issue of spacing. The other issue is that while underlying, you may want to keep the spaces for knowing what is near what, when checking spaces, you need check the objects on the space for their relative position. Eg, if a monster is 40% off his space, then another creature can move up to 40% onto that space. This greatly complicates logic - you just cant check the properties of the space, you need to look at all the objects on the space. This could perhaps be optimized by keeping just a linked list of objects of interest on the space, since in most cases, the vast majority of objects are not interesting. But either way, that does impose some additional performance hit. I'd imagine for display itself, you probably want to do something like 'object ABC is at x,y moving in direction Z at speed S'. Then, the client just keeps moving that object in that direction until told otherwise. You don't want to send the map update everytime an object moves a pixel. but this then imposes additional logic on the server - it basically needs to know what objects it has transmitted to the server (someone killed this orc, need to tell client not to display it anymore). This would be a bit more complicated than the current watch what face. Also, if you're going to do this, you now open up the can of worms that I should be able to move in any of the 360? circle, not just the 8 ordinal directions (presumably, this could be done by either mouse or joystick input, or by changing input such that you basically rotate your characters facing through keyboard input and move in that direction). But if you're going to do that, now get the issue of server should basically look for client input all the time - after all, if partial movement is allowed, I should be able to stop my character halfway between squares and start in some new direction. That'd be a pretty major change. That said, in theory, all this is doable (commercial games obviously do do it). If info is available, it may make sense to look at other opensource games (if any exist) that have this smooth movement, or info is available on method that the commercial games use. From mwedel at sonic.net Sun Oct 16 01:50:51 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun Oct 16 01:50:34 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <434FF2D2.1020909@laposte.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <434FF2D2.1020909@laposte.net> Message-ID: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> My personal thoughts: doing this should be based on gameplay, not sorcery vs witchcraft or any of that type of things. I'm a little reluctant to do it food based - for some characters, it is enough a pain just to find enough food on some maps, if I now have to worry that I'm eating the right type of food, that just adds a lot of hassle. However, having continued consumption of some food times giving bonuses seems reasonable. At the same time, if a character stops eating those foods, those bonuses should go away. This could perhaps be done by very long lived forces - eating the corresponding food creates the force, and each time you eat it, the duration of the force is increased (to some maximum). But to me, that is seperate from the reagants. Doing reagants probably wouldn't be hard. But if done, I think the following should be considered: 1) Prepared reagants for most (all?) spells shoud be available in shops. That said, you may not get reagants for destruction in scorn, but in brest perhaps. It shouldn't be a requirement that I be an alchemist as a spell caster. That said, a caster could make them if he wanted to (and save money). (following from economics, if there is demand, people would make it). 2) PRices for reagants, especially for high level spells, could be quite costly. 1000 pp to cast comet? 3) Reagants should be quite light, so that you can carry a bunch of them without much effect on weight (or perhaps give players a reagant pouch that reduces weight quite a bit). 4) Not all spells should necessarily require reagants. Most lower level spells perhaps shouldn't, with more requirement for higher level spells. 5) Use of reagants should be similar to arrows, eg, happens automatically. Player shouldn't have to be fumbling through their inventory for them. 6) Could perhaps be interesting to have alternate reagants for spells with different effects (less or more powerful, etc). The basic gist of this is don't want to make it such a pain to play spellcasters that no one does so. If I can only carry 50 reagants and have to keep popping back to town, what fun is that? Likewise, if I have to be hunting through the forest looking for some herb for a spell, I'd not consider that especially fun either. That said, pricey reagants could certainly make using some spells less appealing. From mwedel at sonic.net Sun Oct 16 02:01:22 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun Oct 16 02:00:33 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> Message-ID: <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> David Delbecq wrote: > 2 questions > > - can we think about allowing player to swim in non-deep sea (near scorn > port) and if so, make this movements very low (for geographical reasons) This is doable - just change the relevant ocean spaces for no_pass to block_move ... (whatever is everything but swim). A high move_slow can be set to slow down swimming. > - If we suppose you can't swim in on grass (obvious) using move_block 8, > what about grass with a piece of river above?? Tricky? that's because > this flag is a per tile flag while it is set at the object level. > Perhaps we could start start, apart from this patch, a discusion on the > opportunity > to move every square flag away from object to the map square itself. Or > perhaps creating a mapsquare_flag object which override any map flag > that could be set by other object. This mapsquare_flag object could be > present not as an object but a a square properties in the editor. Yes, that can be a problem. The proper fix, IMO, would be to change those spaces so that the grass on them doesn't have move_block set (after all in this case, the grass is really just for scenery). I'd say that has to be done, because making rivers globally swimmable will probably break several maps that use rivers and water to prevent player from getting to some areas. > > 1 Suggestion > Is it faisable with current code to create a square that could be > traversed by small creature but not by big one. > eg: mice, ants, dogs, cats, and 'crouched' humanoids could get thru but > not any thing bigger? > other example: only mice, ants, dogs > Other suggestion: a square that need a minimu size to get thru. Eg a 1m > wall mice can't pass while any humanoid can naturally climb it? :D This is doable by adding new movement types. One could add a movement type like 'move_crawl'. Small creatures would have that movement type as well as move_walk. Players would have to execute some command to denote they are now crawling If one was to give small creatures something like move_crawl only (and the presumption made that not much is going to block that), then second case is easy to do - block move_crawl but not move_walk. Thus, small creatures couldn't get through but big ones could. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Oct 16 02:56:54 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun Oct 16 02:58:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <4351E204.2060301@sonic.net> References: <20051016014320.77903.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <4351E204.2060301@sonic.net> Message-ID: <435207C6.5000900@laposte.net> > Random question - do guilds in any way limit membership of people to a > single guild? If so, that should probably be done. Right now, no. Guild membership is based on owning a key, so you can have as many as you want. Python-based guilds I think limit to one guild, but that can be changed. Ryo From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Oct 16 03:11:16 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun Oct 16 03:15:46 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Word of recall on another player? Message-ID: <43520B24.3050000@laposte.net> Hello. Right now you can't cast word of recall on another player, it's always applied on casting player. What would you think of enabling casting on someone else? Of course, as Rednexela pointed out, you could annoy another player by sending him home forcibly :) Maybe then put a restriction, players must be in same party? Ryo From trhyne at MIT.EDU Sun Oct 16 04:43:59 2005 From: trhyne at MIT.EDU (Vernon T Rhyne) Date: Sun Oct 16 04:44:36 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Word of recall on another player? In-Reply-To: <43520B24.3050000@laposte.net> References: <43520B24.3050000@laposte.net> Message-ID: <20051016054359.h6kn3uhwyl6o4gs0@webmail.mit.edu> Quoting Nicolas Weeger : > Hello. > > Right now you can't cast word of recall on another player, it's always > applied on casting player. > What would you think of enabling casting on someone else? > Of course, as Rednexela pointed out, you could annoy another player by > sending him home forcibly :) > Maybe then put a restriction, players must be in same party? > > Ryo > Given the common policy of "map ownership" by whoever was there first has the right to continue on the quest/dungeon/map, being able to pop the queue through word of recall would be odd. As long as town portal allows party use, I'd think it a better alternative to allow another player a home trip, though it's a higher level spell. If there's value gained by the ability to cast it on a party member, though, I can't see it being too problematic to allow word of recall to be cast on someone next to you who's in the same party. From lalo at exoweb.net Sun Oct 16 05:49:40 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Sun Oct 16 05:54:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... Message-ID: My wife has been busy picking ideas from commercial games that could be cool in crossfire. Her first suggestion is to add marriage. Of course, anyone who used to play MUDs will remember that you could get married in many of them; right now, the specific game she's talking about (no mentioning names) gives the couple some interesting advantages, like sharing HP (depends on a special object), and teleporting ("summoning") the partner (a special "spell"). Here's a small list of things I think marriage could do in CF: - a high-level spell to summon your partner to your side. (Or two; maybe a summonning spell brings the partner immediately, a sorcery spell opens a portal between the two of you, something like that) - when you enter an unique map, if you don't have "your" version of that map but your partner does, you go to the partner's; alas, shared apartments - if the couple is in neighbouring squares (alternatively, if they're within a distance smaller than their level; alternatively, if they're in the same map), they can share spell points. This could be enabled/disabled by a command (a la petmode, peaceful, etc). So if the mage partner runs out of mana, the warrior partner can "lend" some. - if sharing HP is deemed interesting enough, it should probably depend on a hard-to-get artifact (quest objective). (Willing to implement. Although my C skill is so out of shape that all patches I've sent to crossfire to date had to be partially or completely rewritten before they went into CVS...) best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From lalo at exoweb.net Sun Oct 16 05:55:07 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Sun Oct 16 05:58:37 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Love and marriage, love and marriage... Message-ID: oh, another one, in the wake of Ryo's post: - if the couple is in neighbouring squares (alternatively, if they're within a distance smaller than their level; alternatively, if they're in the same map), then word of recall affects both. This can get annoying if the intention was *not* to teleport both, so it can probably be implemented as a different spell, or maybe just by casting the spell in the direction of the partner ("firing" it). best, Lalo Martins -- My personal formula for efficiency is to arrange problems in such a way that they solve each other. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From cerzeo at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 07:06:52 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sun Oct 16 07:08:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510151709h24698e63re3e535642019098e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7903f03c0510150955y696b3b97va3c8d9d38fe2a0bf@mail.gmail.com> <20051015171030.37403.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510151709h24698e63re3e535642019098e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510160506u2b92ea57r@mail.gmail.com> The way to do this problem, can be: 1.- If the monster has more than an loot object (2 or more objects), then use the corpse-container. 2.- If the monster has only one object to loot, then drop this object to the floor. 3.- If the monster has zero object to loor, then nothing appears. No corpse container, none objects. I saw that many dungeons was filled with hundred of object. We will supose that into this dungeon were 50 enemyes, and each enemy had 4 objects to loot. At now, when all monsters die, there will be 200 vsible objects, but, with corpse-container idea, only 50, one for each monster. But, in case of any monster hasn't objects to loot, there will be less than 50 visible objects. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 07:18:18 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sun Oct 16 07:18:39 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <4351E0EE.70902@sonic.net> References: <3fa509450510150928i22d365a1u@mail.gmail.com> <435130AB.9010003@telus.net> <4351E0EE.70902@sonic.net> Message-ID: <3fa509450510160518lbf8d735n@mail.gmail.com> > Mark Wedel wrote: > Downsides: > > 1) Monsters that pick up loot would now need to do more work (instead of the > objects of 5 dead creatures merging, they would be all seperate, instead of the > common objects merging. Monsters can pick up only the objects over the flor, but not into the corpse-container. Or maybe, when the monster is over the corpse-container, check the object into it, and then move one random object from corpse-container to monster inventory. > 2) point 2 from above- fire effects may now have more objects to check for > destruction because they don't merge. When a fire spell (for example) burns the corpse, you can make a simple python routine, which destroy all objects into the corpse-container. Or simply, the same thing that occurs when fire reaches a chest, which is also a container. > All that said, I'd think this should be more driven by actually thinking this > is a good or bad feature, not memory or performance reasons. You can set a timer in the corpse which will destroy the corpse and all its contens, past 5 minutes, for example. In this way, we will not wait for server resets to clean the maps. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 07:33:21 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sun Oct 16 07:34:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <434FF2D2.1020909@laposte.net> <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> Message-ID: <3fa509450510160533la4fd28bo@mail.gmail.com> > Mark Wedel wrote: > 2) PRices for reagants, especially for high level spells, could be quite costly. > 1000 pp to cast comet? I think instead set an high price to the high level spells reagents, i think it's better to set those reagents not buyable. This is, those reagent can only be found onto a dungeon, killing a hard monster, or they are "hidding" in a chest of this dungeon. This is because when i am level 80, i will have enough money to buy this "ultimate" reagents. > 3) Reagants should be quite light, so that you can carry a bunch of them without > much effect on weight (or perhaps give players a reagant pouch that reduces > weight quite a bit). Yes, i refer a reagent, something like an herb, a black pearl, etc...all those light > 4) Not all spells should necessarily require reagants. Most lower level spells > perhaps shouldn't, with more requirement for higher level spells. > > 5) Use of reagants should be similar to arrows, eg, happens automatically. > Player shouldn't have to be fumbling through their inventory for them. Yes, one reagent must be of one-use. It consumes (like arrows) once the player cast a spell requiring the reagents > 6) Could perhaps be interesting to have alternate reagants for spells with > different effects (less or more powerful, etc). This is also a good idea, but i refer to reagent like requisite, not complement. And i have found another good thing. Using reagents, will not allow players to cast spells massively. I think this yesterday, playing CF. I start to cast "Burning Hands" massively, to try to kill dozens of hill giants. With reagents, I must be carefull with spellcasting. Or maybe, i must go to kill hill giants with other mages, or maybe need to go with a team. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From temitchell at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 16 08:58:43 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Sun Oct 16 08:58:39 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Houses system for guilds In-Reply-To: <4351E204.2060301@sonic.net> References: <20051016014320.77903.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <4351E204.2060301@sonic.net> Message-ID: <43525C93.5000804@sympatico.ca> The python guilds limit membership to a single guild (between python guilds that is). > > Random question - do guilds in any way limit membership of people to > a single guild? If so, that should probably be done. > > It could also be interesting to add race or class based guilds (only > dwarves can become members, only wizards, etc). This might also help > out availability of some guilds (and perhaps at the same time, anyone > that qualifies can get a basic membership to those guilds). > From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 12:41:23 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 14:09:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510160518lbf8d735n@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051016174123.50857.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Tell me please why there is a problem with "too many objects" Are you running your server on a 286? --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > > Mark Wedel wrote: > > Downsides: > > > > 1) Monsters that pick up loot would now need to do > more work (instead of the > > objects of 5 dead creatures merging, they would be > all seperate, instead of the > > common objects merging. > > Monsters can pick up only the objects over the flor, > but not into the > corpse-container. > Or maybe, when the monster is over the > corpse-container, check the > object into it, and then move one random object from > corpse-container > to monster inventory. > > > 2) point 2 from above- fire effects may now have > more objects to check for > > destruction because they don't merge. > > When a fire spell (for example) burns the corpse, > you can make a > simple python routine, which destroy all objects > into the > corpse-container. Or simply, the same thing that > occurs when fire > reaches a chest, which is also a container. > > > All that said, I'd think this should be more > driven by actually thinking this > > is a good or bad feature, not memory or > performance reasons. > > You can set a timer in the corpse which will destroy > the corpse and > all its contens, past 5 minutes, for example. In > this way, we will not > wait for server resets to clean the maps. > > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 12:56:18 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 14:10:03 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051016175618.85750.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Wouldn't regents just be like talismands? Perhapse if one doesn't have the regent the spell should be only be 1/2 or 1/3rd as powerfull then with the regent (for spells that 'need' regents)? --- Mark Wedel wrote: > > My personal thoughts: > > doing this should be based on gameplay, not > sorcery vs witchcraft or any of > that type of things. > > I'm a little reluctant to do it food based - for > some characters, it is enough a > pain just to find enough food on some maps, if I now > have to worry that I'm > eating the right type of food, that just adds a lot > of hassle. > > However, having continued consumption of some food > times giving bonuses seems > reasonable. At the same time, if a character stops > eating those foods, those > bonuses should go away. This could perhaps be done > by very long lived forces - > eating the corresponding food creates the force, and > each time you eat it, the > duration of the force is increased (to some > maximum). > > But to me, that is seperate from the reagants. > > Doing reagants probably wouldn't be hard. But if > done, I think the following > should be considered: > > 1) Prepared reagants for most (all?) spells shoud be > available in shops. That > said, you may not get reagants for destruction in > scorn, but in brest perhaps. > It shouldn't be a requirement that I be an alchemist > as a spell caster. That > said, a caster could make them if he wanted to (and > save money). > > (following from economics, if there is demand, > people would make it). > > 2) PRices for reagants, especially for high level > spells, could be quite costly. > 1000 pp to cast comet? > > 3) Reagants should be quite light, so that you can > carry a bunch of them without > much effect on weight (or perhaps give players a > reagant pouch that reduces > weight quite a bit). > > 4) Not all spells should necessarily require > reagants. Most lower level spells > perhaps shouldn't, with more requirement for higher > level spells. > > 5) Use of reagants should be similar to arrows, eg, > happens automatically. > Player shouldn't have to be fumbling through their > inventory for them. > > 6) Could perhaps be interesting to have alternate > reagants for spells with > different effects (less or more powerful, etc). > > > > The basic gist of this is don't want to make it > such a pain to play > spellcasters that no one does so. If I can only > carry 50 reagants and have to > keep popping back to town, what fun is that? > Likewise, if I have to be hunting > through the forest looking for some herb for a > spell, I'd not consider that > especially fun either. > > That said, pricey reagants could certainly make > using some spells less appealing. > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 12:44:34 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 14:11:15 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510160518lbf8d735n@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051016174434.96965.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Tell me please why there is a problem with "too many objects". Are you running your server on a 286? Maybe we shouldn't allow any complex maps in CVS either, they have many objects aswell. And forget about expanding the amount of objects that can be seen over 3 on a tile... gosh then we would have to "render" more objects! Psssst it's 2005 and that which eats bandwith are spell animations + cylical animations. --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > > Mark Wedel wrote: > > Downsides: > > > > 1) Monsters that pick up loot would now need to do > more work (instead of the > > objects of 5 dead creatures merging, they would be > all seperate, instead of the > > common objects merging. > > Monsters can pick up only the objects over the flor, > but not into the > corpse-container. > Or maybe, when the monster is over the > corpse-container, check the > object into it, and then move one random object from > corpse-container > to monster inventory. > > > 2) point 2 from above- fire effects may now have > more objects to check for > > destruction because they don't merge. > > When a fire spell (for example) burns the corpse, > you can make a > simple python routine, which destroy all objects > into the > corpse-container. Or simply, the same thing that > occurs when fire > reaches a chest, which is also a container. > > > All that said, I'd think this should be more > driven by actually thinking this > > is a good or bad feature, not memory or > performance reasons. > > You can set a timer in the corpse which will destroy > the corpse and > all its contens, past 5 minutes, for example. In > this way, we will not > wait for server resets to clean the maps. > > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 13:03:30 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 14:11:20 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510160518lbf8d735n@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051016180330.31181.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> The corpse idea isn't a terrible idea /if/ we have corpse pics for all the various monsters. Also 2x2 creatures should have a 2x2 corpse. This can be done if we can get the talented artists who created our current monster pics in on the job. Also, we need a new type. Container-food-weapon. So we can still eat corpses... and can use them as a weapon (ala nethack)... not an effective weapon though :P. --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > > Mark Wedel wrote: > > Downsides: > > > > 1) Monsters that pick up loot would now need to do > more work (instead of the > > objects of 5 dead creatures merging, they would be > all seperate, instead of the > > common objects merging. > > Monsters can pick up only the objects over the flor, > but not into the > corpse-container. > Or maybe, when the monster is over the > corpse-container, check the > object into it, and then move one random object from > corpse-container > to monster inventory. > > > 2) point 2 from above- fire effects may now have > more objects to check for > > destruction because they don't merge. > > When a fire spell (for example) burns the corpse, > you can make a > simple python routine, which destroy all objects > into the > corpse-container. Or simply, the same thing that > occurs when fire > reaches a chest, which is also a container. > > > All that said, I'd think this should be more > driven by actually thinking this > > is a good or bad feature, not memory or > performance reasons. > > You can set a timer in the corpse which will destroy > the corpse and > all its contens, past 5 minutes, for example. In > this way, we will not > wait for server resets to clean the maps. > > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From cerzeo at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 16:00:11 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Sun Oct 16 16:00:47 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <20051016175618.85750.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <20051016175618.85750.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> Yes, this is also a good idea. But then there must be two class of "objects to cast magic": 1.- Reagents: herbs or so neccesary to cast the spell and 2.- Power Ups: or a kind of talisman wich will power up the spell's power. I refer reagent like something obligatory to cast spell. Without them, the spell doesn't work anyway. I you set reagents like something optional, the spellcaster can cast spells masivelly (with less power, like you say, but possible to cast). -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From temitchell at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 16 16:32:35 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Sun Oct 16 16:32:46 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> Message-ID: <4352C6F3.3090401@sympatico.ca> Mark Wedel wrote: > David Delbecq wrote: > >> 2 questions >> >> - can we think about allowing player to swim in non-deep sea (near scorn >> port) and if so, make this movements very low (for geographical reasons) > > > This is doable - just change the relevant ocean spaces for no_pass to > block_move ... (whatever is everything but swim). > > A high move_slow can be set to slow down swimming. I would advocate that only the shallow sea should be swimmable. From temitchell at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 16 16:45:47 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Sun Oct 16 16:44:47 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> Message-ID: <4352CA0B.8090201@sympatico.ca> Mark Wedel wrote: > > So I finished up the new movement code and did some basic testing, > and it > seems to work. > > [...] > > Any other thoughts? Notes? Questions? > > Also, feel free to try this out on my server: > > tavern.santa-clara.ca.us > > Do note this server is really only up for this testing. I put a > building next to the inn in scorn that has some test cases. > I just tried it out, fantastic! - just having the ability to block walking but allow missiles will add greatly to the game. There is now quite a bit of map work ahead to take advantage of this. Whole groups of monsters just got a new lease on life. I am drooling over the walls lined with archers, the moats with catapults on the other side, those nasty skeletal mages on the far platforms between you and the exit! We will need some new wall arches also to indicate overhanging walls which block missiles and magic. Also looking at that how do spell movement types play in this? Some spells should walk(wave) and some should fly (fireball), and some do both (poison clouds)? - I haven't checked how this can work but it would increase the usefullness of differnet spells in different situations. If you cast a barrier against missiles (a wall spell that blocks flying) it would be effective against arrows and stuff, but maybe it shouldn't block a ground based cone spell... Anyway - it's coolio. From brenlally at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 19:34:12 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Sun Oct 16 19:34:50 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4352C6F3.3090401@sympatico.ca> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> <4352C6F3.3090401@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510161734w7bac646aj227e6de5fac99535@mail.gmail.com> On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: > I would advocate that only the shallow sea should be swimmable. Could seas use the same approach as swamps? That when a player starts walking into them, they stand a chance to sink slightly, and if they keep going, they die? This would effectively stop long distance swimming Obviously the messages would need to change appropriately: "You glide comfortably through the water" "You feel your legs start to get tired" "You struggle to keep your head above water" "You gasp for breath, and in the process swallow lots of water" "You are drowning" From josh at woosworld.net Sun Oct 16 22:07:48 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Sun Oct 16 22:08:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <20051016175618.85750.qmail@web6101 9.mail.yahoo.com> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> Alberto, Your not by chance the person from IRC who was asking about having played UO (Ultima Online) are you? Both the reagents and the loot in corpse ideas reminds me of UO. Josh Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > Yes, this is also a good idea. > > But then there must be two class of "objects to cast magic": > > 1.- Reagents: herbs or so neccesary to cast the spell > and > 2.- Power Ups: or a kind of talisman wich will power up the spell's power. > > I refer reagent like something obligatory to cast spell. Without them, > the spell doesn't work anyway. > > I you set reagents like something optional, the spellcaster can cast > spells masivelly (with less power, like you say, but possible to > cast). > -- > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 14:28:42 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 22:55:58 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <20051016180330.31181.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051016192842.55549.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Also the corpses should look bloodied up, and if someone consumed the monster totaly with fire spell etc then a corpse shouldn't be dropped. --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > The corpse idea isn't a terrible idea /if/ we have > corpse pics for all the various monsters. > > Also 2x2 creatures should have a 2x2 corpse. > > This can be done if we can get the talented artists > who created our current monster pics in on the job. > > Also, we need a new type. Container-food-weapon. So > we > can still eat corpses... and can use them as a > weapon > (ala nethack)... not an effective weapon though :P. > > --- Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > > > > Mark Wedel wrote: > > > Downsides: > > > > > > 1) Monsters that pick up loot would now need to > do > > more work (instead of the > > > objects of 5 dead creatures merging, they would > be > > all seperate, instead of the > > > common objects merging. > > > > Monsters can pick up only the objects over the > flor, > > but not into the > > corpse-container. > > Or maybe, when the monster is over the > > corpse-container, check the > > object into it, and then move one random object > from > > corpse-container > > to monster inventory. > > > > > 2) point 2 from above- fire effects may now have > > more objects to check for > > > destruction because they don't merge. > > > > When a fire spell (for example) burns the corpse, > > you can make a > > simple python routine, which destroy all objects > > into the > > corpse-container. Or simply, the same thing that > > occurs when fire > > reaches a chest, which is also a container. > > > > > All that said, I'd think this should be more > > driven by actually thinking this > > > is a good or bad feature, not memory or > > performance reasons. > > > > You can set a timer in the corpse which will > destroy > > the corpse and > > all its contens, past 5 minutes, for example. In > > this way, we will not > > wait for server resets to clean the maps. > > > > -- > > -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- > > -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- > > -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- > > -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- > > -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 20:57:15 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 22:56:03 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510161734w7bac646aj227e6de5fac99535@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051017015715.46466.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, if one was swimming for a long time they would tire, sink, and die :D. --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell > wrote: > > I would advocate that only the shallow sea should > be swimmable. > > Could seas use the same approach as swamps? That > when a player starts > walking into them, they stand a chance to sink > slightly, and if they > keep going, they die? This would effectively stop > long distance > swimming > > Obviously the messages would need to change > appropriately: > "You glide comfortably through the water" > "You feel your legs start to get tired" > "You struggle to keep your head above water" > "You gasp for breath, and in the process swallow > lots of water" > "You are drowning" > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brenlally at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 23:09:22 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Sun Oct 16 23:10:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <20051016192842.55549.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051016180330.31181.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <20051016192842.55549.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510162109m3532adeayac7d64e34f13dc16@mail.gmail.com> On 10/16/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > Also the corpses should look bloodied up, and if > someone consumed the monster totaly with fire spell > etc then a corpse shouldn't be dropped. or look at the last attack type, and if it is fire or lightning and enough (maybe > level?) damage is done, create a charred corpse instead. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 23:18:45 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 16 23:28:41 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Cauldron bug reports Message-ID: <20051017041846.94467.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Running cvs as of 5 days ago: SEAGREEN shouts: i get two uses then the next time it says that it wont fit in cauldren i tried eve 0.0 weight items and it said that Clover shouts: hmm - managed to use the cauldron in the guild once Clover shouts: nothing fits in it anymore... __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Oct 17 00:04:54 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 17 00:04:54 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510160533la4fd28bo@mail.gmail.com> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <434FF2D2.1020909@laposte.net> <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510160533la4fd28bo@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <435330F6.8040400@sonic.net> Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: >> Mark Wedel wrote: >> 2) PRices for reagants, especially for high level spells, could be quite costly. >> 1000 pp to cast comet? > > I think instead set an high price to the high level spells reagents, i > think it's better to set those reagents not buyable. This is, those > reagent can only be found onto a dungeon, killing a hard monster, or > they are "hidding" in a chest of this dungeon. > This is because when i am level 80, i will have enough money to buy > this "ultimate" reagents. The problem is that either you make the reagents common enough that finding them isn't much an issue, or they are so rare that finding them becomes a real pain, basically making some spells uncastable. Getting the balance of them being common enough but not too common is very difficult. If playing for 3 hours is a tough dungeon only gets me enough reagents for 5 comets, that pretty much makes the comet spell useless. If I found 200, no real issue on reagents then. My thought however is that if reagents cost money, it will start taking wealth from the players at a fairly low level (say 10?) So player is constantly buying reagents, using up his money So how wealthy the character will be at high level is hard to determine. Constantly sucking money from the character may make it so characters are not incredibly wealthy. Or it perhaps add the dimension earlier on that 'abc is the best spell damage wise, but not reagent cost wise'. From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Oct 17 00:10:01 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 17 00:08:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510161734w7bac646aj227e6de5fac99535@mail.gmail.com> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> <4352C6F3.3090401@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510161734w7bac646aj227e6de5fac99535@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43533229.4070404@sonic.net> Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: >> I would advocate that only the shallow sea should be swimmable. > > Could seas use the same approach as swamps? That when a player starts > walking into them, they stand a chance to sink slightly, and if they > keep going, they die? This would effectively stop long distance > swimming Yes, perhaps. That said, what should probably be done is that the swimming skill requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - basically, player has to unequip most everything to be able to use the swimming skill. That said, there should also be something in the swimming code that checks to see how much stuff the character is carrying - carrying 2500 lbs of stuff should make swimming pretty darn difficult. Casting spells while swimming probably shouldn't be allowed either. All that said, I'd be more inclined to change both swamp and swimming code to not cause instant death, but rather do hp damage. Thus, a character with decent HP would have some decent amount of time to start dropping stuff to prevent from drowning. From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Oct 17 00:15:11 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 17 00:14:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4352CA0B.8090201@sympatico.ca> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <4352CA0B.8090201@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4353335F.8070507@sonic.net> Todd Mitchell wrote: > I just tried it out, fantastic! - just having the ability to block > walking but allow missiles will add greatly to the game. There is now > quite a bit of map work ahead to take advantage of this. Whole groups > of monsters just got a new lease on life. I am drooling over the walls > lined with archers, the moats with catapults on the other side, those > nasty skeletal mages on the far platforms between you and the exit! AS a note, it appears that in the old code, the some monsters (ghosts) were suppose to pass through walls and the like. I'm thinking adding yet another movement type (ethereal) might be in order. Treasure rooms can be protected with walls that block everything, but other maps can be set so that walls don't block ethereal travel. Thus, ghosts would go through walls, and the player could also (I'd suggest items that allow ethereal movement perhaps be limited to potions only, as having permanent items of player possessed spells that do it would probably be too powerful). > > We will need some new wall arches also to indicate overhanging walls > which block missiles and magic. In addition, I think you just need low walls to denote you can't walk over them, but missiles over them. Might actually make jump skill useful again. > Also looking at that how do spell movement types play in this? Some > spells should walk(wave) and some should fly (fireball), and some do > both (poison clouds)? - I haven't checked how this can work but it would > increase the usefullness of differnet spells in different situations. > If you cast a barrier against missiles (a wall spell that blocks flying) > it would be effective against arrows and stuff, but maybe it shouldn't > block a ground based cone spell... Most all spells are set with the movement type of flying. Spells could be updated to have other movement types (walking, and one could even imagine some water based spells that do swimming). From alex_sch at telus.net Mon Oct 17 00:17:47 2005 From: alex_sch at telus.net (Alex Schultz) Date: Mon Oct 17 00:18:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <43533229.4070404@sonic.net> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> <4352C6F3.3090401@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510161734w7bac646aj227e6de5fac99535@mail.gmail.com> <43533229.4070404@sonic.net> Message-ID: <435333FB.3060603@telus.net> Mark Wedel wrote: > Brendan Lally wrote: > >> On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: >> >>> I would advocate that only the shallow sea should be swimmable. >> >> >> Could seas use the same approach as swamps? That when a player starts >> walking into them, they stand a chance to sink slightly, and if they >> keep going, they die? This would effectively stop long distance >> swimming > > > Yes, perhaps. > > That said, what should probably be done is that the swimming skill > requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - basically, player has to > unequip most everything to be able to use the swimming skill. What about characters without such slots? (i.e. dragons) Alex Schutlz From leaf at real-time.com Sun Oct 16 23:32:57 2005 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Mon Oct 17 00:46:09 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) Message-ID: <43532979.2020208@real-time.com> >>Also the corpses should look bloodied up, and if >>someone consumed the monster totaly with fire spell >>etc then a corpse shouldn't be dropped. > > or look at the last attack type, and if it is fire or lightning and > enough (maybe > level?) damage is done, create a charred corpse > instead. Perhaps more objects should have a "charred" graphic for when they get burned/burnt by fire? (and other attacks..) Charred furniture, charred corpses, piles of ash, smoking cinder that eventually burns out or turns to a pile of ash, etc. From yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com Mon Oct 17 01:57:28 2005 From: yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com (Yann Chachkoff) Date: Mon Oct 17 01:58:57 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Crossfire Plugin System v2.0 In-Reply-To: <43514BCC.6070300@laposte.net> References: <1129371665.c7f35cbcyann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> <43514BCC.6070300@laposte.net> Message-ID: <200510170857.36253.yann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Le Samedi 15 Octobre 2005 20:34, Nicolas Weeger a ?crit : > While we're at it :) > * could we use names more explicit that EVENT_GDEATH and EVENT_GKILL? > I'd say EVENT_PLAYER_DEATH and EVENT_KILL, less confusing > Agree - changed in my code. > * EVENT_GKILL takes *two* parameters (what was killed and by who), only > one is used in plugin. And parameters should be inverted imo, first what > was killed, then by who (seems logical to always send affected item > first, then what object affects it imo) > Fixed. Just as a side note, it seems that f2b.be is currently not properly updating its DNS records, so you may have trouble getting the patch. You can use this alternate location to get it: http://chachkoff.dyndns.org/~gros/ws4f/project_rottenplug.patch.151005.tar.bz2 -- Yann Chachkoff ----------------------- Garden Dwarf's Best Friend ----------------------- GPG Key : http://keyserver.veridis.com:11371/export?id=9080288987474372064 Fingerprint: 6616 2E02 BAD2 4AEF C90A F1EB 7E03 AAB9 844D 25E0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20051017/c53b885a/attachment.pgp From cerzeo at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 06:36:19 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Mon Oct 17 06:37:02 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510162109m3532adeayac7d64e34f13dc16@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051016180330.31181.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <20051016192842.55549.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510162109m3532adeayac7d64e34f13dc16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510170436n1bb954f5j@mail.gmail.com> I saw yesterday, playing at Metalforge server, a kind of corpse, not from a monster, which was a container. I haven't take a screenshot, but that corpse was gray and small. Not like corpses like monsters leave when die. I don't know i you have seen this before, you ca use the code of this to work on this idea :) -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:00:01 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Mon Oct 17 07:01:01 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <435330F6.8040400@sonic.net> References: <3fa509450510141027h45c23d2p@mail.gmail.com> <434FF2D2.1020909@laposte.net> <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510160533la4fd28bo@mail.gmail.com> <435330F6.8040400@sonic.net> Message-ID: <3fa509450510170500pccaa815u@mail.gmail.com> > The problem is that either you make the reagents common enough that finding > them isn't much an issue, or they are so rare that finding them becomes a real > pain, basically making some spells uncastable. Yes, i think that Ultimate spells reagents, must be hard to fing, but not impossible. For example, imagine a spell called "Apocalipse". This will need "Volcanic dust", "Eye of a Dread" and "Spider Silk". Maybe Spider Silk is easy to earn, but to kill a Dread monster, is quite more difficult, but not impossible. The Volcanic Dust, can be found in a Demon's Volcan, where you need to kill some hard demons or Behemoths, or so. And also, if U are level 200, not all Dreads will leave an eye, so U can cast Apocalipse 5 times. No more. This is, the "Ultimate reagents" can't be bought anyway, except any player have sold them, and if this is the case, it's costs will be nearly unreachable. > Getting the balance of them being common enough but not too common is very > difficult. The same as above ^ > If playing for 3 hours is a tough dungeon only gets me enough reagents for 5 > comets, that pretty much makes the comet spell useless. Not necesarily to play 3 hours. I thing the hardiest job is to know where those Ultimate Reagents are. And also, player must be powerfull enough to try to retrieve those reagents. A reagent can be Wyvern's Wing, so, a level 1 player, can't go to Scorn's Jail and killl those wyvern's, but when he becomes level 7, he can. The most common reagents will be for the most common spells, but the reagents must have a "union" with the spells. This is, Burning Hands can have Sulfur and Ogre's Finger, but no an Icecube and Goblin's head. > If I found 200, no real issue on reagents then. Of course, more common spells will have common reagents, but uncommon spells, will have uncommon reagents. Also, reagents (common or uncommon) must be considered like a treasure. If they are buyable, you can set the price of each 5 gold coins, or 10 gold coins. And if they are not buyable, the player will not found 200 ultimate reagents, and then he will cast those ultimate spells carefully. > My thought however is that if reagents cost money, it will start taking wealth > from the players at a fairly low level (say 10?) So player is constantly buying > reagents, using up his money I think 5 or 10 gp is not an high prize, but the issue is that the caster be carefull and don't cast spells massively, because reagents consumes. Also, this will make caster to use different spells, not only icestorm and Burning hands, because those spells, destroy the objects droped by killed monsters. > So how wealthy the character will be at high level is hard to determine. > Constantly sucking money from the character may make it so characters are not > incredibly wealthy. Or it perhaps add the dimension earlier on that 'abc is the > best spell damage wise, but not reagent cost wise'. Yes, then the best spell is the more destructive spell necessarily. It will be the most cheap in the sense of reagent cost/kind. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:02:07 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Mon Oct 17 07:03:00 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) In-Reply-To: <43532979.2020208@real-time.com> References: <43532979.2020208@real-time.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510170502s43b2ff8eu@mail.gmail.com> I think this is too long to make. I think is better to destroy the corpse-container. -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From cerzeo at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:04:48 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Mon Oct 17 07:06:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> > Alberto, > > Your not by chance the person from IRC who was asking about having > played UO (Ultima Online) are you? > Both the reagents and the loot in corpse ideas reminds me of UO. > > Josh Yes, at IRC I'm Amra :) And yes, I have played UO many time, and I liked those two details much, but now I like CF more than UO. :P (It's true) -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 09:23:08 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 10:41:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <435333FB.3060603@telus.net> Message-ID: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Also I think one should get tired whilst swimming, and if exausted sink to the bottom of davey jones locker. --- Alex Schultz wrote: > Mark Wedel wrote: > > > Brendan Lally wrote: > > > >> On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell > wrote: > >> > >>> I would advocate that only the shallow sea > should be swimmable. > >> > >> > >> Could seas use the same approach as swamps? That > when a player starts > >> walking into them, they stand a chance to sink > slightly, and if they > >> keep going, they die? This would effectively stop > long distance > >> swimming > > > > > > Yes, perhaps. > > > > That said, what should probably be done is that > the swimming skill > > requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - > basically, player has to > > unequip most everything to be able to use the > swimming skill. > > What about characters without such slots? (i.e. > dragons) > > Alex Schutlz > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 10:34:46 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 10:41:11 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. Message-ID: <20051017153446.55140.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Currently there is a dirth of monsters that are challenging for level 115 players, thus there is not a massive amount of things for such players to do, they have "finished the game" basically. This does not have to be the case, however, as it is in our capacity to create higher level monsters to place for them in new high level duengons to challenge our "grown up" players. There are two things we can do (not mutually exclusive). 1) take existing monsters and create a new monster arch that is high level (set it's level to 116 btw if you don't want it charmable, set higher if this is a real tough monster that will likely kill you (so dragons can eat high lvl food thusly from it)) (and expand it's hp, sp, max of both, Cha, Pow). And make a new pic for the new monster by taking it's weaker's friend's pic and altering it. Also you may want to make a new treasure list for this new monster (give it higer lvl spells (large lightining vs small) and perhapse add to it's droppage of money etc. 2) Create brand new monster. Note: If you don't have cvs access I will be happy to commit your new monsters. (email me: mikeeusaaa@yahoo.com or come to #crossfire-bs on freenode IRC). Note: (Everything must be GPL'd ofcourse). __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 11:59:07 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:03:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. In-Reply-To: <20051017153446.55140.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051017153446.55140.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510170959v4ceb3825x7c975be32b556216@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > 1) take existing monsters and create a new monster > arch that is high level (set it's level to 116 btw if > you don't want it charmable, set higher if this is a > real tough monster that will likely kill you (so > dragons can eat high lvl food thusly from it)) I'd be wary of this, currently reaching legendary dragon status has already been achieved a handful of times, I'm not convinced it should be made easier. From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 17 12:09:28 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:11:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4353DAC8.5060408@woosworld.net> Do the undead (Devourer) breathe? And if not, can they simple sink to the bottom anyway and walk as far as they want? Do those who were once Devourer and now 1/2 undead breathe? Mitch Obrian wrote: > Also I think one should get tired whilst swimming, and > if exausted sink to the bottom of davey jones locker. > > --- Alex Schultz wrote: > > >>Mark Wedel wrote: >> >> >>>Brendan Lally wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell >> >> wrote: >> >>>>>I would advocate that only the shallow sea >> >>should be swimmable. >> >>>> >>>>Could seas use the same approach as swamps? That >> >>when a player starts >> >>>>walking into them, they stand a chance to sink >> >>slightly, and if they >> >>>>keep going, they die? This would effectively stop >> >>long distance >> >>>>swimming >>> >>> >>> Yes, perhaps. >>> >>> That said, what should probably be done is that >> >>the swimming skill >> >>>requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - >> >>basically, player has to >> >>>unequip most everything to be able to use the >> >>swimming skill. >> >>What about characters without such slots? (i.e. >>dragons) >> >>Alex Schutlz >> >>_______________________________________________ >>crossfire mailing list >>crossfire@metalforge.org >> > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 17 12:12:39 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:13:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510170959v4ceb3825x7c975be32b556216@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017153446.55140.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510170959v4ceb3825x7c975be32b556216@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4353DB87.1070708@woosworld.net> It's just recently been made vastly easier with some new monsters (I hate to spoil even on this last, so if you don't know what I mean ask me). woo was able to get his last ~10 resistance bumps in a few days as opposed to spending a few days hunting for a few body parts that may or may not give hum a bump. I'd also agree that making this easier undoes the work of everyone who worked so hard before to get it. I know I wasn't thrilled to see dragons catch up to woo in a few weeks where I spent months. Josh Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > >>1) take existing monsters and create a new monster >>arch that is high level (set it's level to 116 btw if >>you don't want it charmable, set higher if this is a >>real tough monster that will likely kill you (so >>dragons can eat high lvl food thusly from it)) > > > I'd be wary of this, currently reaching legendary dragon status has > already been achieved a handful of times, I'm not convinced it should > be made easier. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 12:19:37 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:21:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4353DAC8.5060408@woosworld.net> References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <4353DAC8.5060408@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> The following are IMHO only. On 10/17/05, Joshua Wilson wrote: > Do the undead (Devourer) breathe? yes, but they don't do anything with the oxygen. > And if not, can they simple sink to the bottom anyway and walk as far as > they want? in theory, but, since water will contain trace amounts of holy water (being one large interconnected system into which such water will at some point have been introduced), and since holy water is fatal to undead, when they tire and sink, they start to swallow water and the component of that that is holy water kills them. > Do those who were once Devourer and now 1/2 undead breathe? same as above. The advantage of this interpretation is that exactly the same effect is observed as for everyone else. From leaf at real-time.com Mon Oct 17 12:22:07 2005 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:22:44 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New swimming skill? drowning? (was: New movement code.) Message-ID: Re: Discussion about being able to swim in water (deep sea, shallow sea, rivers, lakes, etc.) - further discussion about how "swamp" terrain can cause players to drown - also brough up equipment, fatigue, et al and how that can afffect swimming. On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Joshua Wilson wrote: > Do the undead (Devourer) breathe? > And if not, can they simple sink to the bottom anyway and walk as far as > they want? > Do those who were once Devourer and now 1/2 undead breathe? What about adding a new attack type along the lines of suffication (affixiation?) - the "water" terrain would provide this attack type very similar to how lava causes fire damage. With the new attack type, certain races (ex: undead) would be immune while other races would be vulnerable to this attack type (ex: fireborn?). Plus, it would open a possibilities of a whole new line of spells. -- From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 17 12:30:06 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:31:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <4353DAC8.5 060408@woosworld.net> <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> Brendan Lally wrote: > The following are IMHO only. IMHO is good enough for around here :-) > > On 10/17/05, Joshua Wilson wrote: > >>Do the undead (Devourer) breathe? > > > yes, but they don't do anything with the oxygen. > > >>And if not, can they simple sink to the bottom anyway and walk as far as >>they want? > > > in theory, but, since water will contain trace amounts of holy water > (being one large interconnected system into which such water will at > some point have been introduced), and since holy water is fatal to > undead, when they tire and sink, they start to swallow water and the > component of that that is holy water kills them. > Interesting. A few thoughts here. Are you using this logic as a way to prevent the undead from getting an advantage that "overpowers" them, or is this how you really see it? Isn't holy water blessed by a priest to become holy, and after it's been used no longer "holy" and just "water"? In this case wouldn't water returned to the sea no longer be holy? > >>Do those who were once Devourer and now 1/2 undead breathe? > > > same as above. > > The advantage of this interpretation is that exactly the same effect > is observed as for everyone else. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From leaf at real-time.com Mon Oct 17 12:41:42 2005 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:43:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <4353DAC8.5 060408@woosworld.net> <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> Message-ID: > > in theory, but, since water will contain trace amounts of holy water > > (being one large interconnected system into which such water will at > > some point have been introduced), and since holy water is fatal to > > undead, when they tire and sink, they start to swallow water and the > > component of that that is holy water kills them. > > Interesting. A few thoughts here. > > Are you using this logic as a way to prevent the undead from getting an > advantage that "overpowers" them, or is this how you really see it? > > Isn't holy water blessed by a priest to become holy, and after it's been > used no longer "holy" and just "water"? In this case wouldn't water > returned to the sea no longer be holy? Make it easier. Jjust make references to the ring wraiths in LoTR and crossing water, or the *D&D references (maybe some other occult lore?..) to undead (specifically, vampires) being vulnerable to moving water. ;-P From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 17 12:51:15 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 17 12:53:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <4353DAC8.5 060408@woosworld.net> <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <4353E493.7010809@woosworld.net> Rick Tanner wrote: >>>in theory, but, since water will contain trace amounts of holy water >>>(being one large interconnected system into which such water will at >>>some point have been introduced), and since holy water is fatal to >>>undead, when they tire and sink, they start to swallow water and the >>>component of that that is holy water kills them. >> >>Interesting. A few thoughts here. >> >>Are you using this logic as a way to prevent the undead from getting an >>advantage that "overpowers" them, or is this how you really see it? >> >>Isn't holy water blessed by a priest to become holy, and after it's been >>used no longer "holy" and just "water"? In this case wouldn't water >>returned to the sea no longer be holy? > > > Make it easier. > > Jjust make references to the ring wraiths in LoTR and crossing water, or > the *D&D references (maybe some other occult lore?..) to undead > (specifically, vampires) being vulnerable to moving water. So lets make sure Garlic isn't a reagent for spells then :-) Then again, a heal spell to the undead should inflict damage so.. > > ;-P > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 10:53:29 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 13:11:59 2005 Subject: Quest to aquire swimming skill (should be lvl 80+) (was: Re: [crossfire] New movement code.) In-Reply-To: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051017155329.67420.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Perhapse we should make a quest to aquire the swimming skill (and only have said scroll appear 1/16 times or 1/32 times (easily done with boulders :) )). Perhapse it should involve that water goddess (perhapse you must slay her (or her aura) in her water palace?)). Imho it should be level 80 or higher (perhapse level 115). Thoughts? --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > Also I think one should get tired whilst swimming, > and > if exausted sink to the bottom of davey jones > locker. > > --- Alex Schultz wrote: > > > Mark Wedel wrote: > > > > > Brendan Lally wrote: > > > > > >> On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> I would advocate that only the shallow sea > > should be swimmable. > > >> > > >> > > >> Could seas use the same approach as swamps? > That > > when a player starts > > >> walking into them, they stand a chance to sink > > slightly, and if they > > >> keep going, they die? This would effectively > stop > > long distance > > >> swimming > > > > > > > > > Yes, perhaps. > > > > > > That said, what should probably be done is that > > the swimming skill > > > requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - > > basically, player has to > > > unequip most everything to be able to use the > > swimming skill. > > > > What about characters without such slots? (i.e. > > dragons) > > > > Alex Schutlz > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 12:49:46 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 13:12:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510170959v4ceb3825x7c975be32b556216@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051017174947.76868.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> So the solution is that once you are lvl 115 you can charm everything, yay, game is over. The new monsters are rather difficult to kill btw, and are only found in certain areas (namely certain areas in mlab). There is a possible solution, how about a new variable bodypartslevel If it is not set then the bodyparts act normally and take the lvl of the monster. If it is set then the bodypartsdropped are the level of whatever bodypartslevel is. This is unlikely to be a massive code chage so could it be added soon. That way we can make highlevel tough monsters that must be fought yet only drop level 100 food or so. --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian > wrote: > > 1) take existing monsters and create a new monster > > arch that is high level (set it's level to 116 btw > if > > you don't want it charmable, set higher if this is > a > > real tough monster that will likely kill you (so > > dragons can eat high lvl food thusly from it)) > > I'd be wary of this, currently reaching legendary > dragon status has > already been achieved a handful of times, I'm not > convinced it should > be made easier. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 13:18:55 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 13:19:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510171118ya37b67fu18faa00fea216fcb@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Joshua Wilson wrote: > > Brendan Lally wrote: > > The following are IMHO only. > > IMHO is good enough for around here :-) > > > > > On 10/17/05, Joshua Wilson wrote: > > > >>Do the undead (Devourer) breathe? > > > >>And if not, can they simple sink to the bottom anyway and walk as far as > >>they want? > > > > > > in theory, but, since water will contain trace amounts of holy water > > (being one large interconnected system into which such water will at > > some point have been introduced), and since holy water is fatal to > > undead, when they tire and sink, they start to swallow water and the > > component of that that is holy water kills them. > > > > Interesting. A few thoughts here. > > Are you using this logic as a way to prevent the undead from getting an > advantage that "overpowers" them, or is this how you really see it? according to wikipedia: 'Once consecrated, more ordinary water can be added to the supply of holy water, and the entire quantity of water remains consecrated provided that the amount added is less than the amount of water that was there.' I had never heard this before (but then I've never really thought about that before, so have never tried to look it up), but it sounds plausible. Gameplay is to me the key point, If there is drowning, then there is no need to have massive alterations to world maps that have open bodies of water (and illogical limits on where a player can and can't swim). If some characters are not guarenteed to be able to drown, then they could go anywhere in a body of water, which would mean a need to modify them to define where someone can't swim to. The 'all water is partially holy water' argument does have one other problem, in that wraiths can drink potions of water with no ill effects. > Isn't holy water blessed by a priest to become holy, and after it's been > used no longer "holy" and just "water"? In this case wouldn't water > returned to the sea no longer be holy? That's an interesting question, I infer from the wikipedia quote above, that the water would then no longer be exorcised, but that is an unsourced line from a wikipedia article. I have been unable to find a better reference myself. I do know that the quantity of water recognised as holy by any person is a tiny fraction of the world's total (even if the hindu intrepretation is used where (as I understand it) the entire river gagnes is considered holy - I'm unsure on this point, and would welcome it being corrected, I don't think hinduism has exorcism of water in the same way as Christianity.) Anyway, regardless of the reality of holy water, the world of crossfire is polytheistic, one god can define its persistance in rivers, seas and streams (but not in glass bottles, or fountains - sounds kinda like a gaea sort of claim to me.), while the others don't. If their banishments can work against wraith, why not their holy water? From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 13:30:51 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 13:31:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510171130s7d7e5ce4n48070551e0b767f5@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Rick Tanner wrote: > Make it easier. > > Jjust make references to the ring wraiths in LoTR and crossing water, or > the *D&D references (maybe some other occult lore?..) to undead > (specifically, vampires) being vulnerable to moving water. Oh yeah, that would work too. (although I like the idea of extending the gaean 'oneness of nature' hippie crap a bit more too). From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 17 13:44:38 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 17 13:45:06 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Quest to aquire swimming skill (should be lvl 80+) In-Reply-To: <20051017155329.67420.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051017155329.67420.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4353F116.5020405@woosworld.net> While I agree that more higher level activities would be fun, I don't know that swimming is that hard to learn. :-) Mitch Obrian wrote: > Perhapse we should make a quest to aquire the swimming > skill (and only have said scroll appear 1/16 times or > 1/32 times (easily done with boulders :) )). Perhapse > it should involve that water goddess (perhapse you > must slay her (or her aura) in her water palace?)). > Imho it should be level 80 or higher (perhapse level > 115). > > Thoughts? > > > --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > > >>Also I think one should get tired whilst swimming, >>and >>if exausted sink to the bottom of davey jones >>locker. >> >>--- Alex Schultz wrote: >> >> >>>Mark Wedel wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Brendan Lally wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>I would advocate that only the shallow sea >>> >>>should be swimmable. >>> >>>>> >>>>>Could seas use the same approach as swamps? >> >>That >> >>>when a player starts >>> >>>>>walking into them, they stand a chance to sink >>> >>>slightly, and if they >>> >>>>>keep going, they die? This would effectively >> >>stop >> >>>long distance >>> >>>>>swimming >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, perhaps. >>>> >>>> That said, what should probably be done is that >>> >>>the swimming skill >>> >>>>requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - >>> >>>basically, player has to >>> >>>>unequip most everything to be able to use the >>> >>>swimming skill. >>> >>>What about characters without such slots? (i.e. >>>dragons) >>> >>>Alex Schutlz >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>crossfire mailing list >>>crossfire@metalforge.org >>> >> > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Yahoo! Music Unlimited >>Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. >>http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>crossfire mailing list >>crossfire@metalforge.org >> > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From josh at woosworld.net Mon Oct 17 13:48:42 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 17 13:49:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510171118ya37b67fu18faa00fea216fcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017142309.75865.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171019h145a733ak5161bdf6b93965a0@mail.gmail.com> <4353DF9E.4030501@woosworld.net> <7903f03c0510171118ya37b67fu18faa00fea216fcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4353F20A.1080303@woosworld.net> Brendan Lally wrote: > Gameplay is to me the key point, If there is drowning, then there is > no need to have massive alterations to world maps that have open > bodies of water (and illogical limits on where a player can and can't > swim). If some characters are not guarenteed to be able to drown, then > they could go anywhere in a body of water, which would mean a need to > modify them to define where someone can't swim to. > Your right here - it's all about gameplay. While I like the idea (an elegant solution to the problem) I'm simply exploring the holes/complaints I think players/people might try to poke in it. > The 'all water is partially holy water' argument does have one other > problem, in that wraiths can drink potions of water with no ill > effects. Indeed - and being rained on if the weather code is used or drinking standard water bottles. That being said it's certainly still a viable option. > >>Isn't holy water blessed by a priest to become holy, and after it's been >>used no longer "holy" and just "water"? In this case wouldn't water >>returned to the sea no longer be holy? > > > That's an interesting question, I infer from the wikipedia quote > above, that the water would then no longer be exorcised, but that is > an unsourced line from a wikipedia article. I have been unable to find > a better reference myself. > > I do know that the quantity of water recognised as holy by any person > is a tiny fraction of the world's total (even if the hindu > intrepretation is used where (as I understand it) the entire river > gagnes is considered holy - I'm unsure on this point, and would > welcome it being corrected, I don't think hinduism has exorcism of > water in the same way as Christianity.) > > Anyway, regardless of the reality of holy water, the world of > crossfire is polytheistic, one god can define its persistance in > rivers, seas and streams (but not in glass bottles, or fountains - > sounds kinda like a gaea sort of claim to me.), while the others > don't. > > If their banishments can work against wraith, why not their holy water? Works for me! > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 14:37:19 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Mon Oct 17 14:39:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] More server speed reducing the objects number In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510170436n1bb954f5j@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051016180330.31181.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <20051016192842.55549.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510162109m3532adeayac7d64e34f13dc16@mail.gmail.com> <3fa509450510170436n1bb954f5j@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > I saw yesterday, playing at Metalforge server, a kind of corpse, not > from a monster, which was a container. I haven't take a screenshot, > but that corpse was gray and small. Not like corpses like monsters > leave when die. > > I don't know i you have seen this before, you ca use the code of this > to work on this idea :) There isn't code for this, its done in the map file, using a container modified to look like a corpse. over all, i like the idea of monsters dropping corpse, instead of just the loot To allow monsters to still be able to pick up items from killed creatures, just use a flag that allows monsters to pick up stuff from a container, if they normally would not be able to. Possibly damage the container, when they do so. -- Andrew Fuchs From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 14:40:37 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Mon Oct 17 14:44:03 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510170502s43b2ff8eu@mail.gmail.com> References: <43532979.2020208@real-time.com> <3fa509450510170502s43b2ff8eu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > I think this is too long to make. I think is better to destroy the > corpse-container. Or just leave a "pile of ash" or use a few generic charred objects. As for the code, I don't think it would take long. -- Andrew Fuchs From temitchell at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 17 15:23:37 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (temitchell@sympatico.ca) Date: Mon Oct 17 15:25:06 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Quest to aquire swimming skill (should be lvl 80+) Message-ID: <20051017202337.ZTZD1877.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.82]> I would think that serpentmen would be able to swim by default. Perhaps some classes as well like the swashbuckler? From temitchell at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 17 15:27:56 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (temitchell@sympatico.ca) Date: Mon Oct 17 15:29:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. Message-ID: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.82]> When hugging trees, remember that Gaia handed off certain tasks to her children, fire to Ruggili, the sky to Sorig and specifically in this case the seas to Ixalovh. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 15:28:31 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 15:45:52 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Quest to aquire swimming skill (should be lvl 80+) In-Reply-To: <4353F116.5020405@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <20051017202831.67940.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Remeber this is the mideval/ancient world. Not many people could read, write, or swim. They could, however, murder eachother... and thus they did!11 --- Joshua Wilson wrote: > While I agree that more higher level activities > would be fun, I don't > know that swimming is that hard to learn. :-) > > Mitch Obrian wrote: > > Perhapse we should make a quest to aquire the > swimming > > skill (and only have said scroll appear 1/16 times > or > > 1/32 times (easily done with boulders :) )). > Perhapse > > it should involve that water goddess (perhapse you > > must slay her (or her aura) in her water > palace?)). > > Imho it should be level 80 or higher (perhapse > level > > 115). > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > --- Mitch Obrian wrote: > > > > > >>Also I think one should get tired whilst swimming, > >>and > >>if exausted sink to the bottom of davey jones > >>locker. > >> > >>--- Alex Schultz wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Mark Wedel wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Brendan Lally wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>On 10/16/05, Todd Mitchell > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>I would advocate that only the shallow sea > >>> > >>>should be swimmable. > >>> > >>>>> > >>>>>Could seas use the same approach as swamps? > >> > >>That > >> > >>>when a player starts > >>> > >>>>>walking into them, they stand a chance to sink > >>> > >>>slightly, and if they > >>> > >>>>>keep going, they die? This would effectively > >> > >>stop > >> > >>>long distance > >>> > >>>>>swimming > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Yes, perhaps. > >>>> > >>>> That said, what should probably be done is that > >>> > >>>the swimming skill > >>> > >>>>requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - > >>> > >>>basically, player has to > >>> > >>>>unequip most everything to be able to use the > >>> > >>>swimming skill. > >>> > >>>What about characters without such slots? (i.e. > >>>dragons) > >>> > >>>Alex Schutlz > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>crossfire mailing list > >>>crossfire@metalforge.org > >>> > >> > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > >> > >> > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>Yahoo! Music Unlimited > >>Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > >>http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>crossfire mailing list > >>crossfire@metalforge.org > >> > > > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > > -- > Joshua Wilson > www.woosworld.net > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 15:33:45 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 15:45:59 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051017203345.75496.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> We don't have the artists to create corpses for the diffrent monsters. A chinese dragon dropping a corpse of a man would be dumb and cheap IMHO. It is best to keep it as is unless the artists appear. As we have it now it works fine, making monsters drop corpses (when we don't have the artwork to support it) would severly cheapen the game without adding any capabilities. As this is basically an artistic change... we need the art (contact the originall artists?). --- Andrew Fuchs wrote: > On 10/17/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros > wrote: > > I think this is too long to make. I think is > better to destroy the > > corpse-container. > > Or just leave a "pile of ash" or use a few generic > charred objects. > As for the code, I don't think it would take long. > > -- > Andrew Fuchs > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 15:35:49 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Mon Oct 17 15:46:03 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.82]> Message-ID: <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Wait... since when are they her children? Gaia is a diety who has it's own lore, other dieties have other lore. We should not make one lore primacy above other (_especially_ gaia's). --- temitchell@sympatico.ca wrote: > When hugging trees, remember that Gaia handed off > certain tasks to her children, fire to Ruggili, the > sky to Sorig and specifically in this case the seas > to Ixalovh. > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:19:14 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 20:21:11 2005 Subject: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > Gaia is a diety who has it's own lore, other dieties > have other lore. We should not make one lore primacy > above other (_especially_ gaia's). Is there actually a proper set of lore for the various gods in crossfire? If so, where is it? From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:47:53 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 20:49:11 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) In-Reply-To: <20051017203345.75496.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051017203345.75496.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510171847x28f7fc9em7646f705e005e499@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > We don't have the artists to create corpses for the > diffrent monsters. > Could the existing monster graphics be (ab)used to appear corpse like? I am thinking of something like rendering the image to a plane, rotating backwards 45 degrees, then colourshifting towards grey. If that produced usable results it may be possible to autogenerate all of the corpse graphics. > As we have it now it works fine, making monsters drop > corpses (when we don't have the artwork to support it) > would severly cheapen the game without adding any > capabilities. I would concur on this point. From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:49:38 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 20:52:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Quest to aquire swimming skill (should be lvl 80+) In-Reply-To: <20051017202337.ZTZD1877.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> References: <20051017202337.ZTZD1877.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510171849r6df947b4vb5fe617d1cd7eb93@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, temitchell@sympatico.ca wrote: > I would think that serpentmen would be able to swim by default. Perhaps some classes as well like the swashbuckler? If Mark's point about weight is included, then what you would say instead is that serpentmen and swashbucklers would be able to carry heavier weights, with less chance of sinking, maybe even wear (light) armour. - that would increase their range, but maybe only by 50-100% I'm curious as to why you think serpentmen should be able to swim though. Most ground based snakes do not (AFAIK) swim particularly well. To my mind serpentmen bear more similarity to these than they do to crocodiles or alligators. Also, being cold blooded, swimming in cold water would make their muscles seize up, and they would drown. Likewise, quetzalcoatl should have a penalty to swimming (all those feathers getting waterlogged) and I don't think fireborn not swimming would be contentious from a consistancy point of view..... wrt classes, I'm not quite convinced of the swashbuckler being able to swim. A swashbuckler is merely a swordsman who acts with great flair, they never neccessarily go near water (zorro, the three musketers). Arguably the swashbuckler in crossfire is actually more of a privateer, in which case such a thing would make more sense. From lalo at exoweb.net Mon Oct 17 22:21:55 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Mon Oct 17 22:25:13 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/2005 09:19 AM... > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > >>Gaia is a diety who has it's own lore, other dieties >>have other lore. We should not make one lore primacy >>above other (_especially_ gaia's). > > Is there actually a proper set of lore for the various gods in crossfire? > > If so, where is it? It was a pet project I was working on, many, many years ago. It's on the wiki. It's not by any means official. And I only did Gaea, Valriel and Gorokh versions (although it's possible that followers of other gods subscribe to the Gaean version, it was written with that intention). If anyone actually finds them interesting, I'm game for making improvements or writing more stuff. (Personally, I *really* love the Valriel/Gorokh ones) best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From brenlally at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 23:13:27 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Mon Oct 17 23:15:12 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Lalo Martins wrote: > And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/2005 09:19 AM... > > Is there actually a proper set of lore for the various gods in crossfire? > > > > If so, where is it? > > It was a pet project I was working on, many, many years ago. It's on > the wiki. It's not by any means official. And I only did Gaea, Valriel > and Gorokh versions (although it's possible that followers of other gods > subscribe to the Gaean version, it was written with that intention). Yeah, I was thinking in terms of inside the game. possibly however this stuff should go into the handbook? > If anyone actually finds them interesting, I'm game for making > improvements or writing more stuff. It certainly looks interesting, there are a few grammatical oddities (things like teached instead of taught), but I'll wait until there is a wiki with revision control until I fix them (speaking of which, when is that expected?) From mwedel at sonic.net Tue Oct 18 00:00:19 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon Oct 17 23:59:13 2005 Subject: Swimming, was Re: [crossfire] New movement code. In-Reply-To: <435333FB.3060603@telus.net> References: <434F609F.1010804@sonic.net> <434F6811.8080008@oma.be> <4351FAC2.8050602@sonic.net> <4352C6F3.3090401@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510161734w7bac646aj227e6de5fac99535@mail.gmail.com> <43533229.4070404@sonic.net> <435333FB.3060603@telus.net> Message-ID: <43548163.4090505@sonic.net> Alex Schultz wrote: > Mark Wedel wrote: >> That said, what should probably be done is that the swimming skill >> requires arms, feet, body, etc, be free - basically, player has to >> unequip most everything to be able to use the swimming skill. > > What about characters without such slots? (i.e. dragons) > Could be a special scroll for them (after all, teaching dragons to swim is probably different than humans). That said, perhaps reasonable to use the spell encumberance code for swimming also - if hard to cast spells, certainly hard to swim. That might be the easiest thing to do - thus, removing objects helps out your swimming odds. given we are giving swimming some danger, it'd probably make sense that you can get exp for it. This then improves what you can carry, so a person that is level 100 swimming could take a nice swim carrying that bonecrusher, wearing plate armor and loaded with loot. IMO, swimming probably shouldn't be that hard to get. AFter all, within game terms, any water space someone can swim, someone should also be able to fly over. Levitate is a level 6 sorcery spell, not really hard to find. Dragons and I think another race or two have the ability to fly when they want to. So given all these details, I don't particularly see the need to make swimming really difficult to get. If anything, flying is still better as there is no danger, move faster, and can move over more terrains. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 23:43:22 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 18 00:48:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051018044322.15519.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I've found the lore very interesting. More would be wonderful! Once it's in we'll add it to the ingame random reading materials. --- Lalo Martins wrote: > And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/2005 09:19 AM... > > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian > wrote: > > > >>Gaia is a diety who has it's own lore, other > dieties > >>have other lore. We should not make one lore > primacy > >>above other (_especially_ gaia's). > > > > Is there actually a proper set of lore for the > various gods in crossfire? > > > > If so, where is it? > > It was a pet project I was working on, many, many > years ago. It's on > the wiki. It's not by any means official. And I > only did Gaea, Valriel > and Gorokh versions (although it's possible that > followers of other gods > subscribe to the Gaean version, it was written with > that intention). > > If anyone actually finds them interesting, I'm game > for making > improvements or writing more stuff. > > (Personally, I *really* love the Valriel/Gorokh > ones) > > best, > Lalo > Martins > -- > So many of our dreams at first seem > impossible, > then they seem improbable, and then, when we > summon the will, they soon become inevitable. > -- > http://www.exoweb.net/ > mailto:lalo@exoweb.net > GNU: never give up freedom > http://www.gnu.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From lalo at exoweb.net Tue Oct 18 05:56:51 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Tue Oct 18 06:01:20 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/2005 12:13 PM... > Yeah, I was thinking in terms of inside the game. They are quite big. I have been thinking of ways to put them inside the game - specially the Valriel/Gorokh ones, could go in the churches - but didn't yet reach one. > It certainly looks interesting, there are a few grammatical oddities > (things like teached instead of taught) As I said, many years ago ;-) it was probably my second big effort for writing fiction in English. There is another "bug" you may not have noticed. The texts mention a few gods that are not in the game; those are my "new gods" I was working on by that time. I ended up never submitting a patch because I couldn't balance them to my satisfaction. There were gods of magic, war, wisdom, joy/partying, and chance. And there isn't ixalovh yet. > but I'll wait until there is > a wiki with revision control until I fix them (speaking of which, when > is that expected?) Funny, ZWiki is supposed to have version control. Well, why don't you just put it on cvs? I don't have CVS, but I can post changes to the list or to the wiki until someone moves it to CVS for me. best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From antonoussik at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 07:09:12 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Tue Oct 18 07:11:20 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Word of recall on another player? In-Reply-To: <43520B24.3050000@laposte.net> References: <43520B24.3050000@laposte.net> Message-ID: On 16/10/05, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Hello. > > Right now you can't cast word of recall on another player, it's always > applied on casting player. > What would you think of enabling casting on someone else? > Of course, as Rednexela pointed out, you could annoy another player by > sending him home forcibly :) > Maybe then put a restriction, players must be in same party? IMO there is no real need for this. It is already possible to make a scroll of recall, and to carry a balm around to help others get back. Also, since the activation of the rod is not instant, it is possible for several people to use the same rod to go home. To do this use the rod, and drop it. You then go home, and the rod stays for the next person to use. This can be considered a bug, although I feel it is consistent with something one would want to do were they real adventurers. This feature also makes low level rods more desirable. From antonoussik at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 07:21:12 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Tue Oct 18 07:21:19 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/10/05, Lalo Martins wrote: > Here's a small list of things I think marriage could do in CF: Some very good ideas, I'd like to see them implemented in CrossFire. Also adding gender at the same time would seem like a good idea. This does bring up a few questions though: I persume you would get married in a church, which means you would need to worship a god of some sort. - Should the couple worship the same god for marriage to work? Maybe allow marriages between worshipers of different gods as long as they are not enemies and there is no conflict with any of the gods? - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see valriel rejecting them)? Should it be god dependant? Should some gods not allow marriage alltogether (like devourers, since the primary goal of getting married is having children, and this seems to go against the principles of devourers) - Divorces. Let's face it, relationships do not last for ever, and you may decide to go your own ways. Should there be a mechanism for terminating a marriage? From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 07:47:21 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 18 07:49:20 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > I persume you would get married in a church, which means you would > need to worship a god of some sort. Wouldn't it be a high level thing anyway? Marriage typically something that was engaged in later in life than soldiering. > - Should the couple worship the same god for marriage to work? Maybe > allow marriages between worshipers of different gods as long as they > are not enemies and there is no conflict with any of the gods? or allow each god to define it. I'm inclined to say no though, the gods in crossfire are not merely different denominations, but different religions, there is no real-world norm to parallel to what you describe. > - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see valriel rejecting them)? I can only assume this is an attempt to provoke an off-topic flamewar. I shall simply state that it is ahistorical, without precedent in any society that approximates the technological state where crossfire is set (medieval europe/renaissence - with the odd 17th century-ism) > Should it be god dependant? Should some gods not allow marriage > alltogether (like devourers, since the primary goal of getting married > is having children, and this seems to go against the principles of > devourers) probably, or else they would have polygamy/polyandry > - Divorces. Let's face it, relationships do not last for ever, and > you may decide to go your own ways. Should there be a mechanism for > terminating a marriage? not a standard one. The way that divorces can occur varies between different faiths. I see no compelling reason why crossfire should be different. There are major issues though, if marriage would allow a shared bank account, then splitting it afterwards would be interesting. This would become more acute if polygamy existed From tchize at myrealbox.com Tue Oct 18 08:51:30 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (Tchize) Date: Tue Oct 18 08:51:21 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4354FDE2.8040105@myrealbox.com> Brendan Lally a ?crit : >On 10/18/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > >>I persume you would get married in a church, which means you would >>need to worship a god of some sort. >> >> > >Wouldn't it be a high level thing anyway? Marriage typically something >that was engaged in later in life than soldiering. > > Depends on culture, in some countries, girls were married at age of 13 not so long ago. > > >> - Should the couple worship the same god for marriage to work? Maybe >>allow marriages between worshipers of different gods as long as they >>are not enemies and there is no conflict with any of the gods? >> >> > >or allow each god to define it. I'm inclined to say no though, the >gods in crossfire are not merely different denominations, but >different religions, there is no real-world norm to parallel to what >you describe. > > I'll say forbid cross-god mariage, it hads soem much fun when one of the to be married must change god :) > > >> - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see valriel rejecting them)? >> >> > > > Crossfire still have no gender. More serious question, do we allow cross-races mariage? >I can only assume this is an attempt to provoke an off-topic flamewar. > > Why? The question is legitime. But i'll say no. Or player would just get married to be able to use the additionnal spells, no matter their respective sex, and divorce just after. >I shall simply state that it is ahistorical, without precedent in any >society that approximates the technological state where crossfire is >set (medieval europe/renaissence - with the odd 17th century-ism) > > > >>Should it be god dependant? Should some gods not allow marriage >>alltogether (like devourers, since the primary goal of getting married >>is having children, and this seems to go against the principles of >>devourers) >> >> > >probably, or else they would have polygamy/polyandry > > > >> - Divorces. Let's face it, relationships do not last for ever, and >>you may decide to go your own ways. Should there be a mechanism for >>terminating a marriage? >> >> Kill your husband/wife? > >not a standard one. The way that divorces can occur varies between >different faiths. I see no compelling reason why crossfire should be >different. > > Agree >There are major issues though, if marriage would allow a shared bank >account, then splitting it afterwards would be interesting. This would >become more acute if polygamy existed > >_______________________________________________ >crossfire mailing list >crossfire@metalforge.org >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:20:24 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 18 09:21:22 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <4354FDE2.8040105@myrealbox.com> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> <4354FDE2.8040105@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510180720s2fe3d57ayb028b9d323f26c0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Tchize wrote: > Brendan Lally a ?crit : > > > Depends on culture, in some countries, girls were married at age of 13 > not so long ago. Yes, but girls also didn't go around slaying orcs and goblins before then. Men didn't either, but they did kill other humans and animals. > > > Crossfire still have no gender. More serious question, do we allow > cross-races > mariage? Maybe partially, where the race is similar. (humans and elves, dwarfs and gnomes) of course, there should be penalties involved, probably to effective charisma as NPCs are repulsed by such miscegenation > >> - Divorces. Let's face it, relationships do not last for ever, and > >>you may decide to go your own ways. Should there be a mechanism for > >>terminating a marriage? > >> > >> > Kill your husband/wife? What about respawning? Indeed, should such things only last until the next time you die? (granted, this isn't so much of an issue on a permadeath server). From cerzeo at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 10:28:03 2005 From: cerzeo at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_S=E1ez_Lodeiros?=) Date: Tue Oct 18 10:29:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510171847x28f7fc9em7646f705e005e499@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017203345.75496.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171847x28f7fc9em7646f705e005e499@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fa509450510180828s2263a477r@mail.gmail.com> 2005/10/18, Brendan Lally : > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > > We don't have the artists to create corpses for the > > diffrent monsters. > > > > Could the existing monster graphics be (ab)used to appear corpse like? > I am thinking of something like rendering the image to a plane, > rotating backwards 45 degrees, then colourshifting towards grey. If > that produced usable results it may be possible to autogenerate all of > the corpse graphics. I can help to do this in a test crossfire graphics. I know The Gimp very well, so i can do this easily for some graphics, then, i can send to the mailing list some of then so you can see them. So, it those looks good, i can "transform" all graphics. The problem is where can I retireve the CF graphics? -- -- Powered by Fedora Core 4 Linux -- -- AMD Duron 1.3 GHz -- -- 512 Mb RAM DDR 400 MHz -- -- HDD 80 Gb 7200 RPM -- -- GeForce 2 MX 400 -- From lalo at exoweb.net Tue Oct 18 10:35:27 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Tue Oct 18 10:39:56 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/05 20:47... > or allow each god to define it. I'm inclined to say no though, the > gods in crossfire are not merely different denominations, but > different religions, there is no real-world norm to parallel to what > you describe. eh? What are you talking about? What about christians marrying muslims, gypsies marrying jews, american indians marrying indian indians, voodoo priests marrying buddhists? (Ok, maybe I got carried away a bit. And gypsies are "officially" christian, although the culture is different enough to be a good example of what I mean.) best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 07:45:42 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 18 11:45:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051018124542.54701.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> There should be no divorce imho (remeber this is the ancient world, if there was divorce only men could do it). Also there will need to be new art for the females. (Best to wait untill we have the art). I'm not a fan of marraige in muds. It's a game, not real life. We shouldn't promote parrell relationships in the gameworld which may become serious: promotes adultery. --- Anton Oussik wrote: > On 16/10/05, Lalo Martins wrote: > > Here's a small list of things I think marriage > could do in CF: > > Some very good ideas, I'd like to see them > implemented in CrossFire. > Also adding gender at the same time would seem like > a good idea. This > does bring up a few questions though: > > I persume you would get married in a church, which > means you would > need to worship a god of some sort. > > - Should the couple worship the same god for > marriage to work? Maybe > allow marriages between worshipers of different gods > as long as they > are not enemies and there is no conflict with any of > the gods? > > - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see valriel > rejecting them)? > Should it be god dependant? Should some gods not > allow marriage > alltogether (like devourers, since the primary goal > of getting married > is having children, and this seems to go against the > principles of > devourers) > > - Divorces. Let's face it, relationships do not > last for ever, and > you may decide to go your own ways. Should there be > a mechanism for > terminating a marriage? > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From bofh-reg-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com Tue Oct 18 09:01:12 2005 From: bofh-reg-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com (Sebastian Andersson) Date: Tue Oct 18 11:45:12 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051018140112.GK22050@hogia.net> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 01:47:21PM +0100, Brendan Lally wrote: > > - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see valriel rejecting them)? > > I can only assume this is an attempt to provoke an off-topic flamewar. > > I shall simply state that it is ahistorical, without precedent in any > society that approximates the technological state where crossfire is > set (medieval europe/renaissence - with the odd 17th century-ism) As far as I remember, I've never heard of any society where they summoned demons, then casted meteor swarms on them, so I don't think any "history" argument is relevant, but if one is interested, wikipedia has an article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History_of_same-sex_unions Personaly I don't see why it should not be allowed. If it is to be disallowed, sex has to be introduced first (and better text handling). /Sebastian -- .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: http://dum.acc.umu.se/ ( ) \_/ ( ) (o_ "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ //\ password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ V_/_ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 10:13:52 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 18 11:45:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510180720s2fe3d57ayb028b9d323f26c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051018151352.19652.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> /me dislikes this whole marraige in crossfire idea. Indeed, it is one thing I dislike about many muds. I don't want to be reminded of marraige and divorce in the gameworld. --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/18/05, Tchize wrote: > > Brendan Lally a ?crit : > > > > > Depends on culture, in some countries, girls were > married at age of 13 > > not so long ago. > > Yes, but girls also didn't go around slaying orcs > and goblins before then. > > Men didn't either, but they did kill other humans > and animals. > > > > > > Crossfire still have no gender. More serious > question, do we allow > > cross-races > > mariage? > > Maybe partially, where the race is similar. (humans > and elves, dwarfs > and gnomes) > > of course, there should be penalties involved, > probably to effective > charisma as NPCs are repulsed by such miscegenation > > > >> - Divorces. Let's face it, relationships do > not last for ever, and > > >>you may decide to go your own ways. Should there > be a mechanism for > > >>terminating a marriage? > > >> > > >> > > Kill your husband/wife? > > What about respawning? Indeed, should such things > only last until the > next time you die? (granted, this isn't so much of > an issue on a > permadeath server). > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 12:45:36 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 18 12:47:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] burned or charred objects (was: More server speed reducing the objects number) In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510180828s2263a477r@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017203345.75496.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171847x28f7fc9em7646f705e005e499@mail.gmail.com> <3fa509450510180828s2263a477r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510181045l4673e929g607f4524e7d175d3@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Alberto S?ez Lodeiros wrote: > 2005/10/18, Brendan Lally : > > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > > > We don't have the artists to create corpses for the > > > diffrent monsters. > > > > > > > Could the existing monster graphics be (ab)used to appear corpse like? > > I am thinking of something like rendering the image to a plane, > > rotating backwards 45 degrees, then colourshifting towards grey. If > > that produced usable results it may be possible to autogenerate all of > > the corpse graphics. > > I can help to do this in a test crossfire graphics. I know The Gimp > very well, so i can do this easily for some graphics, then, i can send > to the mailing list some of then so you can see them. > > So, it those looks good, i can "transform" all graphics. > > The problem is where can I retireve the CF graphics? They are all in the arch/ repository in CVS. This repository contains all of the images, and the object definitions for the objects that use it. in order to download all of them, run the command cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/crossfire co -P arch (this assumes you have cvs installed) in order to view individual graphics, use the web based CVS viewer: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/crossfire/arch/ You could also get the latest release of the arch's but that is slightly out of date now. https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=13833&package_id=15916 From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 10:12:00 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 18 16:18:23 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510180550m75c01857he63c8ffd85ccf04d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, many people do it. It is not terribly hard for it to occur (especially when encouraged, as this marraige idea would). What is "fake" becomes real and then the people decide to meet up etc. We really should not try to encourage this, even if the marraige is fake and in a game... it's still real people... and the can and do become attached. Crossfire has no need of marraige, it is indeed one thing I don't like about many muds. (I sent the preceeding letter to the mailing list... and it wasn't posted, I will probably have to use another email soon as I'm being cencored). --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/18/05, Mitch Obrian > wrote: > > There should be no divorce imho (remeber this is > the > > ancient world, if there was divorce only men could > do > > it). > > > > Also there will need to be new art for the > females. > > (Best to wait untill we have the art). > > Concurred > > > I'm not a fan of marraige in muds. It's a game, > not > > real life. We shouldn't promote parrell > relationships > > in the gameworld which may become serious: > promotes > > adultery. > > Does anyone actually do that? If so they are really > rather pathetic, > and seems to have missed the RP- part of the name of > the genre as a > whole. > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 12:01:30 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 18 16:18:28 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <20051018140112.GK22050@hogia.net> Message-ID: <20051018170130.44790.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> CF "Marraige" will promote online infidelity and offline adultery. (/me dislikes it in muds, one of the few things he wouldn't take from muds). --- Sebastian Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 01:47:21PM +0100, Brendan > Lally wrote: > > > - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see > valriel rejecting them)? > > > > I can only assume this is an attempt to provoke an > off-topic flamewar. > > > > I shall simply state that it is ahistorical, > without precedent in any > > society that approximates the technological state > where crossfire is > > set (medieval europe/renaissence - with the odd > 17th century-ism) > > As far as I remember, I've never heard of any > society where they > summoned demons, then casted meteor swarms on them, > so I don't think any > "history" argument is relevant, but if one is > interested, wikipedia has > an article about it: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History_of_same-sex_unions > > Personaly I don't see why it should not be allowed. > If it is to be > disallowed, sex has to be introduced first (and > better text handling). > > /Sebastian > -- > .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: > http://dum.acc.umu.se/ > ( ) \_/ ( ) > (o_ > "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ > //\ > password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ > V_/_ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 16:43:51 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Tue Oct 18 16:49:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Do multipart weapons work? Message-ID: <20051018214351.65959.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Do multipart weapons work (more then one tile)? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From josh at woosworld.net Tue Oct 18 17:35:12 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Tue Oct 18 17:35:28 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435578A0.8010802@woosworld.net> Using your logic we are also encouraging tossing alchemy, demon worship, killing people to get things they are carrying , etc.. At some point we have to draw the line and say it's simply a game. Games model certain aspects of real life (and if marriage is one of them so be it) and completely disregard other aspects (when was the last time you saw killed someone with a fireball?) Josh Mitch Obrian wrote: > Yes, many people do it. It is not terribly hard for it > to occur (especially when encouraged, as this marraige > idea would). What is "fake" becomes real and then the > people decide to meet up etc. > > We really should not try to encourage this, even if > the marraige is fake and in a game... it's still real > people... and the can and do become attached. > > Crossfire has no need of marraige, it is indeed one > thing I don't like about many muds. > > (I sent the preceeding letter to the mailing list... > and it wasn't posted, I will probably have to use > another email soon as I'm being cencored). > > --- Brendan Lally wrote: > > >>On 10/18/05, Mitch Obrian >>wrote: >> >>>There should be no divorce imho (remeber this is >> >>the >> >>>ancient world, if there was divorce only men could >> >>do >> >>>it). >>> >>>Also there will need to be new art for the >> >>females. >> >>>(Best to wait untill we have the art). >> >>Concurred >> >> >>>I'm not a fan of marraige in muds. It's a game, >> >>not >> >>>real life. We shouldn't promote parrell >> >>relationships >> >>>in the gameworld which may become serious: >> >>promotes >> >>>adultery. >> >>Does anyone actually do that? If so they are really >>rather pathetic, >>and seems to have missed the RP- part of the name of >>the genre as a >>whole. >> > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From brenlally at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 17:47:26 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Tue Oct 18 17:49:28 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <20051018140112.GK22050@hogia.net> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> <20051018140112.GK22050@hogia.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510181547t1076e1c1i62cfe52edf74dc95@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Sebastian Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 01:47:21PM +0100, Brendan Lally wrote: > > > - Do we allow same sex marriges (I can see valriel rejecting them)? > > > > I can only assume this is an attempt to provoke an off-topic flamewar. > > > > I shall simply state that it is ahistorical, without precedent in any > > society that approximates the technological state where crossfire is > > set (medieval europe/renaissence - with the odd 17th century-ism) > > As far as I remember, I've never heard of any society where they > summoned demons, then casted meteor swarms on them, so I don't think any > "history" argument is relevant, Yet you would think it strange if in the world of crossfire, gold was not valued, and things made of gold, not prized above more mundane items, despite its inferior strength as a metalworking material. > but if one is interested, wikipedia has > an article about it: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History_of_same-sex_unions None of these are marriage, but are instead more like that of the relationship between a mentor and appretice, some of them taken to a sexual level. There are numerous other NPOV violations in this article (such as linking to a map that uses a prejudical colouring scheme) that suggest it requires significant editing. > sex has to be introduced first (and better text handling). I'm not quite sure how those two follow on from each other... are you thinking of new attack messages? From thelogan at allyourbase-arebelongto.us Tue Oct 18 18:04:41 2005 From: thelogan at allyourbase-arebelongto.us (Logan Tygart) Date: Tue Oct 18 18:05:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <435578A0.8010802@woosworld.net> References: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <435578A0.8010802@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <1129676682.3496.2.camel@cthulhu> On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:35 -0400, Joshua Wilson wrote: > Using your logic we are also encouraging tossing alchemy, demon worship, > killing people to get things they are carrying , etc.. > > At some point we have to draw the line and say it's simply a game. > > Games model certain aspects of real life (and if marriage is one of them > so be it) and completely disregard other aspects (when was the last time > you saw killed someone with a fireball?) > Precisely, so why bother coding something that is a human response? If people want to get married, let them do so by announcing it to the local town. Maybe on a bulletin board in the town hall, as a suggestion. No need to hard wire marriage into server code. Just my opinion, Logan (Symbiote on metalforge server) -- Did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Registered Linux User: 277727 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20051018/75f1d23b/attachment-0001.pgp From josh at woosworld.net Tue Oct 18 18:38:09 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Tue Oct 18 18:39:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <1129676682.3496.2.camel@cthulhu> References: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <435578A0.8010802@woosworld.net> <1129676682.3496.2.camel@cthulhu> Message-ID: <43558761.3040105@woosworld.net> Logan Tygart wrote: > On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:35 -0400, Joshua Wilson wrote: > >>Using your logic we are also encouraging tossing alchemy, demon worship, >> killing people to get things they are carrying , etc.. >> >>At some point we have to draw the line and say it's simply a game. >> >>Games model certain aspects of real life (and if marriage is one of them >>so be it) and completely disregard other aspects (when was the last time >>you saw killed someone with a fireball?) >> > > Precisely, so why bother coding something that is a human response? If > people want to get married, let them do so by announcing it to the local > town. Maybe on a bulletin board in the town hall, as a suggestion. No > need to hard wire marriage into server code. I think the reasons for coding it are to allow things like a shared apartment or possibly some of the other benefits that were being discussed. While I'm not necessarily in agreement with the list of potential bonuses being discussed I don't think one of the reasons not to work on it is because we might encourage adultery. > > Just my opinion, > > Logan (Symbiote on metalforge server) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:53:22 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Tue Oct 18 18:53:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <43558761.3040105@woosworld.net> References: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <435578A0.8010802@woosworld.net> <1129676682.3496.2.camel@cthulhu> <43558761.3040105@woosworld.net> Message-ID: I think using the python plugin for this would be best. -- Andrew Fuchs From thelogan at allyourbase-arebelongto.us Tue Oct 18 19:06:06 2005 From: thelogan at allyourbase-arebelongto.us (Logan Tygart) Date: Tue Oct 18 19:07:31 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <43558761.3040105@woosworld.net> References: <20051018151200.19416.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <435578A0.8010802@woosworld.net> <1129676682.3496.2.camel@cthulhu> <43558761.3040105@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <1129680366.5427.3.camel@cthulhu> On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 19:38 -0400, Joshua Wilson wrote: > > I think the reasons for coding it are to allow things like a shared > apartment or possibly some of the other benefits that were being > discussed. While I'm not necessarily in agreement with the list of > potential bonuses being discussed I don't think one of the reasons not > to work on it is because we might encourage adultery. Let folks, who want to get married, form their own party/guild and use the tools, already extant, to provide their marital entertainment. The Logan (Symbiote on metalforge) -- We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur. -- Al Gore Registered Linux User: 277727 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20051018/615e1585/attachment.pgp From josh at woosworld.net Tue Oct 18 19:11:43 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Tue Oct 18 19:13:29 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <20051018235900.74918.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051018235900.74918.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43558F3F.3080202@woosworld.net> I don't think that how you feel about women holds much water on this mailing list. Pardon the inflammatory nature of that comment but you know me Mitch and you know it's not intended that way - it's simply an observation. I understand where you are coming from - I just don't agree that it's a reason not to implement it in crossfire. While some people may have a desire to make them more then fake some people also want to kill people after playing violent video games. We could certainly have very deep discussions about the level of responsibility of game makers to decide if we are encouraging an activity in our game or not, but I think that's a bit of overkill. I don't think marriage is a critical aspect of crossfire and I wont be putting it at the top of my priority list. But if someone wanted to implement it I don't have a problem with that. You do, you've made your point and I've made mine - lets let some other people make theirs. Josh Mitch Obrian wrote: > When you play a violent videogame you don't have the > desire to go out murdering people in like fastion. > > When you look at porn you do have the desire to have > sex. > > When you create "fake" personal relationships... there > is often the desire to make them not fake. > > Do you want your wife "marrying" some random crossfire > player and developing a deep personal attachment to a > man who is not you? > > Had I any wives, I would not want them talking to > other men and forging bonds with them (nor other > women, perhapse most of all). > > --- Joshua Wilson wrote: > > >> >>Logan Tygart wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:35 -0400, Joshua Wilson >> >>wrote: >> >>>>Using your logic we are also encouraging tossing >> >>alchemy, demon worship, >> >>>> killing people to get things they are carrying , >> >>etc.. >> >>>>At some point we have to draw the line and say >> >>it's simply a game. >> >>>>Games model certain aspects of real life (and if >> >>marriage is one of them >> >>>>so be it) and completely disregard other aspects >> >>(when was the last time >> >>>>you saw killed someone with a fireball?) >>>> >>> >>>Precisely, so why bother coding something that is >> >>a human response? If >> >>>people want to get married, let them do so by >> >>announcing it to the local >> >>>town. Maybe on a bulletin board in the town hall, >> >>as a suggestion. No >> >>>need to hard wire marriage into server code. >> >>I think the reasons for coding it are to allow >>things like a shared >>apartment or possibly some of the other benefits >>that were being >>discussed. While I'm not necessarily in agreement >>with the list of >>potential bonuses being discussed I don't think one >>of the reasons not >>to work on it is because we might encourage >>adultery. >> >> >>>Just my opinion, >>> >>>Logan (Symbiote on metalforge server) >>> >>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>crossfire mailing list >>>crossfire@metalforge.org >>> >> > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > >>-- >>Joshua Wilson >>www.woosworld.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>crossfire mailing list >>crossfire@metalforge.org >> > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From mwedel at sonic.net Tue Oct 18 21:45:41 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Tue Oct 18 22:11:45 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <43558F3F.3080202@woosworld.net> References: <20051018235900.74918.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <43558F3F.3080202@woosworld.net> Message-ID: <4355B355.70106@sonic.net> Quick thoughts: IF we don't add the sex to characters, then we don't have to worry about the same sex marriage issue. If we do add player sex, I think we then need a bunch of new graphics for most of the races/classes to denote this (fireborn probably doesn't need to be done, and dragons perhaps don't need to be done either - why they have different sexes, may not be readily distinguishable). In terms of marriage, it once again depends on what we want to mimic and gameplay. Given the initial suggestion, I'd think this should be pretty generous. If your limited to the same race and religion, the number of people available to marry on a different server. But what it really comes down to is the actual effects. Most of the initial suggestions could for lack of better term best be described as new party spells. Married characters, being what they are, should perhaps always be in the same party, so the spells work for them. In terms of sharing apartments, I'd think the guild idea, or buildable houses work in that area. That way, I can just as easily share a spot with friends. Divorce, especially with shared apartments, would get really tricky. Who gets ownership of the apartment? How do you split the items in the apartment? for that matter, even marriage gets tricky. Suppose both people have apartments - do you somehow merge the stuff? Choose one apartment not the other? I'm sure you'd get some pissed off people if they suddenly lost access to their apartment when they got married. From mwedel at sonic.net Tue Oct 18 21:49:34 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Tue Oct 18 22:11:50 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Do multipart weapons work? In-Reply-To: <20051018214351.65959.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051018214351.65959.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4355B43E.2020009@sonic.net> Mitch Obrian wrote: > Do multipart weapons work (more then one tile)? Not 100% sure by what you mean by this, but no matter what you mean, probably not in the way you mean. First, I'm not sure if players can ever pick up multispace objects. And if they do, I'm not sure if they would work correctly in the inventory. But if they can, then when they equip them, they are likely to behave just as any other weapon, eg, have to be right next to the creature to hit it, it doesn't reach multiple spaces. From bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com Wed Oct 19 02:23:37 2005 From: bofh-lists-crossfire-dev at diegeekdie.com (Sebastian Andersson) Date: Wed Oct 19 02:25:34 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510181547t1076e1c1i62cfe52edf74dc95@mail.gmail.com> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> <20051018140112.GK22050@hogia.net> <7903f03c0510181547t1076e1c1i62cfe52edf74dc95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051019072337.GN22050@hogia.net> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 11:47:26PM +0100, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/18/05, Sebastian Andersson wrote: > > As far as I remember, I've never heard of any society where they > > summoned demons, then casted meteor swarms on them, so I don't think any > > "history" argument is relevant, > > Yet you would think it strange if in the world of crossfire, gold was > not valued, and things made of gold, not prized above more mundane > items, despite its inferior strength as a metalworking material. In fact, there are many societies that don't value "pretty" as something possitive (goes nicely together with many religions' art of self-denial) and if they were to live alone gold would have a lower value as it wouldn't be wasted on vanity items. So I would not be surprised if gold had no value at all in crossfire, but then again when one does not have to work, what's left but vanity or philosophy? I'm usualy surprised how much is the same in crossfire and other human societies. If magic was so easily obtainable as it is in crossfire, I think few people would buy a flint & stone. > > but if one is interested, wikipedia has > > an article about it: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History_of_same-sex_unions > > None of these are marriage, but are instead more like that of the > relationship between a mentor and appretice, some of them taken to a > sexual level. >From the article: "In China, especially in the southern province of Fujian where male love was especially cultivated, men would marry youths in elaborate ceremonies." That in turn seems to come from the book: Bret Hinsch, Passions of the Cut Sleeve: The Male Homosexual Tradition in China, p. 132 Other parts of the article speaks of "unions", which in my opinion is another word for marriage. Considering how diverse societies there have been, I don't think one can assume anything about a crossfire society by looking at ours'. Heck, would people in a crossfire world even need to grow food, the beginning of most human societies? In crossfire I would rather think that societies would start up around priests, casting restoration on their friends or around mages casting "create food". > > sex has to be introduced first (and better text handling). > > I'm not quite sure how those two follow on from each other... are you > thinking of new attack messages? I was thinking about sex as in gender, not the verb. But I should have used the word gender of course to avoid such confusion. Better text handling would be needed to let people know about sex by using her/his, she/he etc. But as has already been mentioned on the list, make things generic and let the people in the game role-play such things. Regards, /Sebastian -- .oooO o,o Oooo. Ad: http://dum.acc.umu.se/ ( ) \_/ ( ) (o_ "Life is not fair, but root \ ( /|\ ) / (o_ //\ password helps!" -- The BOFH \_) (_/ (/)_ V_/_ From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 05:04:37 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 05:05:36 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: IMO this would make spellcasting less useful, as it would be easier to take a dragon and claw through armies of monsters, picking up reagents as you go. You can then sell the reagents to the poor spellcasters struggling to get enough for a zombie-killing cast. It does seems like an interesting idea though. It is sort of like alchemy but the kind you take around with you and needs less ingredients. If we are heading this way, why not just change the alchemy ingredients so they are easier to make? This seems to be the main reason it is not used too widely - ingredients are rare enough not to bother with it and look for ready-made things in shops instead. Maybe decrease the weight of potions too so you can carry many around with you and be a pure alchemy-based damage dealer. Cavehippo/mwedel's idea about long term food benefits seems good too, although not related to this thread as such. From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 05:15:27 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 05:15:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. In-Reply-To: <20051017174947.76868.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7903f03c0510170959v4ceb3825x7c975be32b556216@mail.gmail.com> <20051017174947.76868.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 17/10/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > So the solution is that once you are lvl 115 you can > charm everything, yay, game is over. I disagree, a lvl 115 character is likely to be unbalanced, so there are still things to do, like raising your one handed and two handed if you are a caster, or vice versa. If worst comes to worst, you can sit at home levelling the hiding skill, or learning more about alchemy and such. Perhaps non-combat aspects of the game that may appeal to the player should be explored instead? Buildable land plots being one... building up, maintaining a social structure, starting clans, guilds, cities, countries, waging wars against other countries, etc. If the game allows for that it will be far more appealing to high level characters as oposed to "some new monster" which may or may not kill you, and if killed will not give any real benefit. From tchize at myrealbox.com Wed Oct 19 05:19:51 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (Tchize) Date: Wed Oct 19 05:19:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. In-Reply-To: References: <7903f03c0510170959v4ceb3825x7c975be32b556216@mail.gmail.com> <20051017174947.76868.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43561DC7.7040201@myrealbox.com> Like accessing an ennemy guild and wasting it? :D Anton Oussik a ?crit : >On 17/10/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > > >>So the solution is that once you are lvl 115 you can >>charm everything, yay, game is over. >> >> > >I disagree, a lvl 115 character is likely to be unbalanced, so there >are still things to do, like raising your one handed and two handed if >you are a caster, or vice versa. If worst comes to worst, you can sit >at home levelling the hiding skill, or learning more about alchemy and >such. > >Perhaps non-combat aspects of the game that may appeal to the player >should be explored instead? Buildable land plots being one... building >up, maintaining a social structure, starting clans, guilds, cities, >countries, waging wars against other countries, etc. If the game >allows for that it will be far more appealing to high level characters >as oposed to "some new monster" which may or may not kill you, and if >killed will not give any real benefit. > >_______________________________________________ >crossfire mailing list >crossfire@metalforge.org >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 05:35:08 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 05:35:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Returning to original thread topic momentarily, ethereal movement should be allowed to all undead who are naked. This will only make the movement type useful for quests and will not give any combat advantage to most players (dragons being a partial exception). Maybe wraiths should get a special "wraith touch" attack skill (melee skill which deals level dependant damage, dealing ghosthit, drain, life stealing, and depletion)? As a counterbalance undead should not be allowed to swim or fly. I don't know why, but it seems more balanced that way. From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 05:37:42 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 05:39:36 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > Returning to original thread topic momentarily, ethereal movement > should be allowed to all undead who are naked. This will only make the > movement type useful for quests and will not give any combat advantage > to most players (dragons being a partial exception). Maybe wraiths > should get a special "wraith touch" attack skill (melee skill which > deals level dependant damage, dealing ghosthit, drain, life stealing, > and depletion)? I know this is now going off topic, but also if wraiths when naked could become stealthed and invisible it would add an interesting game style, where you would hide in walls, sneak up to victims, and suck their life away, one by one. From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 05:53:52 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 05:55:34 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <4355B355.70106@sonic.net> References: <20051018235900.74918.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <43558F3F.3080202@woosworld.net> <4355B355.70106@sonic.net> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > Most of the initial suggestions could for lack of better term best be > described as new party spells. Married characters, being what they are, should > perhaps always be in the same party, so the spells work for them. > > In terms of sharing apartments, I'd think the guild idea, or buildable houses > work in that area. That way, I can just as easily share a spot with friends. Having read the discussion which followed my previous post to this thread I have to afree with Mark here. Party spells and buildable land plots will allow enough flexibility to provide for most things suggested, and without any of the social problems we may run into as the result. If two players want to decide they are married they can get a plot and build there, and party together. If they want to get divorced it is up to them how they do it. From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:27:28 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 08:27:38 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > IMO this would make spellcasting less useful, as it would be easier to > take a dragon and claw through armies of monsters, picking up reagents > as you go. You can then sell the reagents to the poor spellcasters > struggling to get enough for a zombie-killing cast. You make an assumption that it can't be balanced in game. This assumption is not valid, a spell that would only be capable of killing zombies would likely be extremely cheap. > It does seems like an interesting idea though. It is sort of like > alchemy but the kind you take around with you and needs less > ingredients. If we are heading this way, why not just change the > alchemy ingredients so they are easier to make? This seems to be the > main reason it is not used too widely - ingredients are rare enough > not to bother with it and look for ready-made things in shops instead. I disagree, IMHO the reasons it isn't used so much are 1) the recipes are hard to find 2) without recipes it is dangerous 3) there aren't enough useful products that can be created at low levels. 4) the golden unicorn horn/restoration is overpowered. having a few easier useful things (philosophical * aren't useful on their own) would make it possible to use alchemy to level, rather than leveling to use alchemy. Rare ingredients for powerful items is a good thing. - though possibly those same potions/balms/dusts could become less common in treasure lists. > Maybe decrease the weight of potions too so you can carry many around > with you and be a pure alchemy-based damage dealer. That should be closer to what an alchemist does. They are a seperate class to the magic classes. A couple of interface changes would be needed first (something like diablo's potion belt maybe?) From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 09:25:04 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 09:25:39 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > IMO this would make spellcasting less useful, as it would be easier to > > take a dragon and claw through armies of monsters, picking up reagents > > as you go. You can then sell the reagents to the poor spellcasters > > struggling to get enough for a zombie-killing cast. > > You make an assumption that it can't be balanced in game. OK, but you would have to do it so as not to make alchemy even less useful - would you either carry about one easy to find reagent or find an easy to find ingredient, then a cauldron, and then risk your life making something that can cast the spell for you? From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 09:51:11 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 09:51:39 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Love and marriage, love and marriage... In-Reply-To: <20051019072337.GN22050@hogia.net> References: <7903f03c0510180547l155387bal127efc818ba704ea@mail.gmail.com> <20051018140112.GK22050@hogia.net> <7903f03c0510181547t1076e1c1i62cfe52edf74dc95@mail.gmail.com> <20051019072337.GN22050@hogia.net> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510190751t6a1f29fble9aa07104e2f600d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Sebastian Andersson wrote: > In fact, there are many societies that don't value "pretty" as something > possitive (goes nicely together with many religions' art of self-denial) That is what should happen, unfortunatly there are enough greedy people around that it doesn't actually occur that way. > and if they were to live alone gold would have a lower value as it > wouldn't be wasted on vanity items. That's a nice theory, but it didn't actually happen. Gold was highly valued throughout the ancient world, and was one of the first things that was traded for in the new world, often in the form of jewelery and ornamentation (which demonstrates that it was valued and worked there too). I suspect that if you were to find a society that had no gold reserves accesible, then you would find one which didn't value gold, but that would be the only one. > I'm usualy surprised how much is the same in crossfire and other human > societies. If magic was so easily obtainable as it is in crossfire, I > think few people would buy a flint & stone. Most NPCs don't cast magic. The idea of introducing reagents (mentioned elsewhere) is an attempt to balance this. > > > but if one is interested, wikipedia has > > > an article about it: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History_of_same-sex_unions > > > > None of these are marriage, but are instead more like that of the > > relationship between a mentor and appretice, some of them taken to a > > sexual level. > > >From the article: > "In China, especially in the southern province of Fujian where male love > was especially cultivated, men would marry youths in elaborate > ceremonies." do you what to include the next line too? 'The marriages would last a number of years, at the end of which the elder partner would help the younger find a (female) wife and settle down to raise a family.' quite clearly then /not/ a (semi-)permenent relationship, and /not/ one that was considered to create a unique family in its own right (as marriage is) To call this 'marriage' is to use the word in a non-standard way, and therefore is unhelpful to clarity of thought and expression on this topic. > That in turn seems to come from the book: > Bret Hinsch, Passions of the Cut Sleeve: The Male Homosexual Tradition > in China, p. 132 I don't know this book or this author. nor is it explicitly referenced in the article (an omission on the part of the creators of the article?) > Other parts of the article speaks of "unions", which in my opinion is > another word for marriage. In my opinion it isn't. I suspect most trades unions would hold the same view. marriage is a specific type of union, one that has members of two families leave and form a new family. Other types of unions, such as those between apprentice and mentor, do not fulfil the same description, indeed to the host family, such a union is more similar to a birth in terms of the change in family structure. > Considering how diverse societies there have been, I don't think one can > assume anything about a crossfire society by looking at ours'. Not ours, but all human societies. There are always certain constants, things like status determined by dress and ornamentation - in the aztec empire, to wear clothing marking a status above your own was punishable by death. Today in England impersonating a police officer is considered to be a very serious crime. I can't think of any society (certainly not any large and successful one) where clothing or jewelery was not reserved in such a way as a means to show status. To not have such a thing in crossfire would seem odd, and likely ring false. > Heck, > would people in a crossfire world even need to grow food, the beginning > of most human societies? In crossfire I would rather think that > societies would start up around priests, casting restoration on their > friends or around mages casting "create food". But these are high level spells, most of the NPCs don't cast spells, nor have access to them. And production isn't at a high enough rate to feed everyone. Nonetheless, this is yet another reason for spell reagents > > > sex has to be introduced first (and better text handling). > > > > I'm not quite sure how those two follow on from each other... are you > > thinking of new attack messages? > > I was thinking about sex as in gender, not the verb. But I should have > used the word gender of course to avoid such confusion. > Better text handling would be needed to let people know about sex by > using her/his, she/he etc. I suspect that the effort to do that would be about the same as that required to i18n the server (but not the archs or maps). If it is going to be done, switching to gettext at the same time may be worthwhile. > But as has already been mentioned on the list, make things generic and > let the people in the game role-play such things. Yeah, and it doesn't involve playing with .po files. From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 09:54:15 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 09:56:35 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > I know this is now going off topic, but also if wraiths when naked > could become stealthed and invisible it would add an interesting game > style, where you would hide in walls, sneak up to victims, and suck > their life away, one by one. Would banishment also move through walls then? this is an interesting question, if you answer yes, then many undead levels become too easy, if you answer no, then wraith become (almost?) invincible. From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 10:16:29 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 10:17:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510190816x7deb0589m9b7579336ae02500@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > > IMO this would make spellcasting less useful, as it would be easier to > > > take a dragon and claw through armies of monsters, picking up reagents > > > as you go. You can then sell the reagents to the poor spellcasters > > > struggling to get enough for a zombie-killing cast. > > > > You make an assumption that it can't be balanced in game. > > OK, but you would have to do it so as not to make alchemy even less > useful - would you either carry about one easy to find reagent or find > an easy to find ingredient, then a cauldron, and then risk your life > making something that can cast the spell for you? Ok, lets consider the following model as a starting point; there are 5 magic skills, let each of them have their own reagent. also allow 3 extra (general) reagents of varying price, call these expensive1, expensive2, and expensive3 now, each spell would be able to belong to certain skills (more than one) the 5 base reagents would only be usable by someone who could use the associated skill. The 3 expensive ones would be usable by anyone but no spell would use only them. The base reagents would all be cheap and plentiful (alters to generate them for a couple of plat) I'm inclined to say that expensive 1 would probably be directly purchasable (for 50-100 plat maybe) expensive 2 might be creatable with alchemy with ingredients costing 500-1000 plat (ish) expensive 3 would be very rare, and not used or sold lightly. each spell then would need different combinations. firebolt might need 1 pyro token burning hands 2 pyro + expensive 1 faery fire 2 pyro + 1 evocation + expensive 1 icebolt would be 1 evocation icestorm 5 evocation + 1 sorcery + 1 expensive 2 coldfront (a spell to replace icestorm at low levels, without the same damage and range progression) 2 evocation + 1 sorcery magic missile would be 1 sorcery + 1 summoning small lightning 1 pyro + 1 evocation steambolt 2 pyro + 2 sorcery +1 expensive 1 charm monster 5 summoning + 1 sorcery + 1 expensive2 comet 50 pyro + 10 evocation + 1 expensive3 meteor swarm 100 pyro + 20 evocation + 3 expensive3 done properly, this would start to look like a periodic table, with the start of the table having every possible combination of tokens, so that mixing various combinations of reagents, the effects might be guessable (ie, a spell needing 2 pyro + 2 summoning would probably be summon fire elemental or something like that.) This could also make the spells easier to document (a diagram rather than a big list as it is currently. The other nice bit about doing that, is that exp could be shared based on the ratio of base tokens used, so it would be possible to level up sorcery more easily. (in game terms it would make the different forms of magic more integrated, and it far easier to have crossover spells.) If there are only 8 different reagents, then the easiest way to use them is to equip them. If there are 'spell reagent' body slots, then they can be equipped, and used if equipped. From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 10:27:26 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 10:27:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > I know this is now going off topic, but also if wraiths when naked > > could become stealthed and invisible it would add an interesting game > > style, where you would hide in walls, sneak up to victims, and suck > > their life away, one by one. > > Would banishment also move through walls then? > > this is an interesting question, if you answer yes, then many undead > levels become too easy, if you answer no, then wraith become (almost?) > invincible. No, it can not, and no, it would not make the wraith almost invincible. Let me clarify what I have in mind then. (I have very little clue how that is implementable, this is just a concept thought) Upon creating a wraith gets a skill caleld ethereal_mode, which is only activatable when the wraith is not wearing or holding anything. When activated the wraith becomes invisible, stealthy, can move through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold items in inventory (except invisible ones of course), The only attack then avaliable is wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, drain, and life slealing. Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I do not see how it will make them overpowered. Running for the nearest wall will often be the best choice, only preying on the weak, but that will be the only way of surviving, since you would die from three hits by a powerful monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as they are hitting you. While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like that. This would also mean players can not take stuff out of treasure rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then walk out again leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to steal it without completing the quest. Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply exits though, to get around between maps. There is howerver a case of the player going into the mode sneaking up to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking it out. The only way out of this I see is to only provide one way of leaving the mode once entered: by visiting some well defined set of points (like an altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new body). This way it will be impossible for a player to either cheat in the quest or help other players cheat. From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 10:42:33 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 10:43:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510190816x7deb0589m9b7579336ae02500@mail.gmail.com> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190816x7deb0589m9b7579336ae02500@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > > > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > > > IMO this would make spellcasting less useful, as it would be easier to > > > > take a dragon and claw through armies of monsters, picking up reagents > > > > as you go. You can then sell the reagents to the poor spellcasters > > > > struggling to get enough for a zombie-killing cast. > > > > > > You make an assumption that it can't be balanced in game. > > > > OK, but you would have to do it so as not to make alchemy even less > > useful - would you either carry about one easy to find reagent or find > > an easy to find ingredient, then a cauldron, and then risk your life > > making something that can cast the spell for you? > > Ok, lets consider the following model as a starting point; > > there are 5 magic skills, let each of them have their own reagent. > > also allow 3 extra (general) reagents of varying price, call these > expensive1, expensive2, and expensive3 > > now, each spell would be able to belong to certain skills (more than one) > the 5 base reagents would only be usable by someone who could use the > associated skill. The 3 expensive ones would be usable by anyone but > no spell would use only them. > > The base reagents would all be cheap and plentiful (alters to generate > them for a couple of plat) > > I'm inclined to say that expensive 1 would probably be directly > purchasable (for 50-100 plat maybe) > > expensive 2 might be creatable with alchemy with ingredients costing > 500-1000 plat (ish) > > expensive 3 would be very rare, and not used or sold lightly. > > each spell then would need different combinations. > > firebolt might need 1 pyro token > burning hands 2 pyro + expensive 1 > faery fire 2 pyro + 1 evocation + expensive 1 > icebolt would be 1 evocation > icestorm 5 evocation + 1 sorcery + 1 expensive 2 > coldfront (a spell to replace icestorm at low levels, without the same > damage and range progression) 2 evocation + 1 sorcery > magic missile would be 1 sorcery + 1 summoning > small lightning 1 pyro + 1 evocation > steambolt 2 pyro + 2 sorcery +1 expensive 1 > charm monster 5 summoning + 1 sorcery + 1 expensive2 > comet 50 pyro + 10 evocation + 1 expensive3 > meteor swarm 100 pyro + 20 evocation + 3 expensive3 > > done properly, this would start to look like a periodic table, with > the start of the table having every possible combination of tokens, so > that mixing various combinations of reagents, the effects might be > guessable (ie, a spell needing 2 pyro + 2 summoning would probably be > summon fire elemental or something like that.) > > This could also make the spells easier to document (a diagram rather > than a big list as it is currently. > > The other nice bit about doing that, is that exp could be shared based > on the ratio of base tokens used, so it would be possible to level up > sorcery more easily. (in game terms it would make the different forms > of magic more integrated, and it far easier to have crossover spells.) > > If there are only 8 different reagents, then the easiest way to use > them is to equip them. If there are 'spell reagent' body slots, then > they can be equipped, and used if equipped. Yes, this seems conceptually easier than the currenly existing model. This could also be extended into alchemy so that it is just an extension of the reagent formula + fixing agent. A different fixing agent should be used depending on what you want to create, so if you want a potion you use water, other fixing agents for other things. This would fit in very nicely into existing alchemy model since only the formulae will need to be modified, existing code and unrelated formulae can be left untouched. Another issue I'd like to bring up is grace. getting rid of spellpoints will make grace stand out. If you ask me the model works, but it will stand out now that spellpoints are going away. From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 10:49:52 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 10:51:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <20051017203549.13647.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510190849p755e74afj2b726b2a283ddec8@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, stealthy, can move > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold items in inventory > (except invisible ones of course), The only attack then avaliable is > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, drain, and life > slealing. > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I do not see how it > will make them overpowered. Running for the nearest wall will often be > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but that will be the only > way of surviving, since you would die from three hits by a powerful > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as they are hitting > you. Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall (like they do in ADOM with ghosts)? Will rings/amulets remain wearable? I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like > that. Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? > This would also mean players can not take stuff out of treasure > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then walk out again > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to steal it without > completing the quest. You need to deal with switching out of this mode inside the treasure room (you try to adress this later) That could still lead to lots of potential spoilers (you could observe the boulder layout and infer information from that) > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > exits though, to get around between maps. not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. > There is howerver a case of the player going into the mode sneaking up > to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking it out. The only > way out of this I see is to only provide one way of leaving the mode > once entered: by visiting some well defined set of points (like an > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new body). This way it > will be impossible for a player to either cheat in the quest or help > other players cheat. Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps that have alters in dungeons, and these might get placed in areas where a player could get stuck. Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship devourers? There are similar issues with graveyard placement, plus it is a little illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but a 'fresh' one should not. From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 11:08:44 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 11:09:42 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510190849p755e74afj2b726b2a283ddec8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <7903f03c0510171819x2d1c1305j5e31795401a114fb@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190849p755e74afj2b726b2a283ddec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, stealthy, can move > > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold items in inventory > > (except invisible ones of course), The only attack then avaliable is > > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, drain, and life > > slealing. > > > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I do not see how it > > will make them overpowered. Running for the nearest wall will often be > > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but that will be the only > > way of surviving, since you would die from three hits by a powerful > > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as they are hitting > > you. > > Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall (like they do in ADOM > with ghosts)? I believe they will with the current code. I have killed monsters stuck in walls before. > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? No. They can not pass through walls as they are, and therefore you can not take them with you. I say again, nothing worn, nothing carried. If it shows up in inventory, you can not take it with you. > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight something, and say that again. > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact > > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like > > that. > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. I am not sure the server will like that, but yes, essentially. > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? Being invisible will change the face automatically. It will be like wearing god finger. > > This would also mean players can not take stuff out of treasure > > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then walk out again > > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to steal it without > > completing the quest. > > You need to deal with switching out of this mode inside the treasure > room (you try to adress this later) I think I do. > > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if sometimes you can wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to see many of them, and that is not much of a problem. > > There is howerver a case of the player going into the mode sneaking up > > to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking it out. The only > > way out of this I see is to only provide one way of leaving the mode > > once entered: by visiting some well defined set of points (like an > > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new body). This way it > > will be impossible for a player to either cheat in the quest or help > > other players cheat. > > Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps that have alters in > dungeons, and these might get placed in areas where a player could get > stuck. > > Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship devourers? > > There are similar issues with graveyard placement, plus it is a little > illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but a 'fresh' one > should not. Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems something new needs to be introduced into the game, and placed around towns to allow wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found anywhere. From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 11:43:44 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 11:45:41 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190816x7deb0589m9b7579336ae02500@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510190943g66e8d395w44e0d4980010e5be@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > Another issue I'd like to bring up is grace. getting rid of > spellpoints will make grace stand out. If you ask me the model works, > but it will stand out now that spellpoints are going away. Would spell points go away? To my mind they do different things, reagents limit the total number of spells cast, spellpoints limit the rate they can be cast at. Arguably spell delay can compensate for this effect on its own, but it would then need to be tweaked up. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 06:20:21 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 11:54:25 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Call for (new) high level (115+) monsters. In-Reply-To: <43561DC7.7040201@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20051019112022.28586.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, unbalanced for a week, then it's over. Could we please have a new variable: dropfoodlvl (somenumber) so one can set the dropped food to be lower then the lvl of the monster (if it's 0 or not set then things work as usual). I'd like to make some 115+ level areas without making it easy for dargon, this adittion shouldn't be hard and would be usefull, and would allay any problems people have with such difficult creatures. --- Tchize wrote: > Like accessing an ennemy guild and wasting it? :D > Anton Oussik a ?crit : > > >On 17/10/05, Mitch Obrian > wrote: > > > > > >>So the solution is that once you are lvl 115 you > can > >>charm everything, yay, game is over. > >> > >> > > > >I disagree, a lvl 115 character is likely to be > unbalanced, so there > >are still things to do, like raising your one > handed and two handed if > >you are a caster, or vice versa. If worst comes to > worst, you can sit > >at home levelling the hiding skill, or learning > more about alchemy and > >such. > > > >Perhaps non-combat aspects of the game that may > appeal to the player > >should be explored instead? Buildable land plots > being one... building > >up, maintaining a social structure, starting clans, > guilds, cities, > >countries, waging wars against other countries, > etc. If the game > >allows for that it will be far more appealing to > high level characters > >as oposed to "some new monster" which may or may > not kill you, and if > >killed will not give any real benefit. > > > >_______________________________________________ > >crossfire mailing list > >crossfire@metalforge.org > >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 10:10:04 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 11:54:31 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Map shop headers done? Message-ID: <20051019151004.67159.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Are the addition of the shop headers to the various maps done? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:00:00 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:00:11 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190849p755e74afj2b726b2a283ddec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510191000x72b62573od6a90eadc4fea898@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? > > No. They can not pass through walls as they are, and therefore you can > not take them with you. I say again, nothing worn, nothing carried. If > it shows up in inventory, you can not take it with you. Ok, this is stricter than what I thought you were describing originally. > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points > > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) > > Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight something, and say that again. A lvl 100 wraith with high level karate is still reasonably powerful. > > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact > > > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like > > > that. > > > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. > > I am not sure the server will like that, but yes, essentially. If it weren't then it would be possible to set off buttons (unless you special case them). > > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? > > Being invisible will change the face automatically. It will be like > wearing god finger. Yes, my eyes skipped over the word invisible there.... on a related but tangential point, would it be possible to make invisible characters appear on their controller's screen? I am thinking with the face having a medium alpha value, so that it appears to be partially seethrough. I often find it hard when controlling an invisible character to know where they are. > > > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. > > True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if sometimes you can > wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to see many of them, > and that is not much of a problem. yes, but there are maps designed so that x-ray vision won't let you see them, where as your walking through walls would (scorn gatehouse is an example of this). > Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems something new > needs to be introduced into the game, and placed around towns to allow > wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found anywhere. taxidermists? From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:05:12 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:05:41 2005 Subject: [crossfire] [IDEA] Reagents for cast magic In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510190943g66e8d395w44e0d4980010e5be@mail.gmail.com> References: <4351F84B.8050704@sonic.net> <3fa509450510161400o37f08bc8r@mail.gmail.com> <43531584.5070701@woosworld.net> <3fa509450510170504q16e696e3i@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190627reb8fff8lc9be659c327b467e@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190816x7deb0589m9b7579336ae02500@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190943g66e8d395w44e0d4980010e5be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > Another issue I'd like to bring up is grace. getting rid of > > spellpoints will make grace stand out. If you ask me the model works, > > but it will stand out now that spellpoints are going away. > > Would spell points go away? > > To my mind they do different things, reagents limit the total number > of spells cast, spellpoints limit the rate they can be cast at. That is how I thought it would work. Otherwise it gets too complicated. In effect this is like having several large mana pools, I see no need to complicate it further by still having spellpoints. Also this will be a very significant change to the game magic works and I imagine a while before things will be worked out (like improvement potions, npc magic, and so on). From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 11:07:09 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:23:13 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510190849p755e74afj2b726b2a283ddec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051019160709.19602.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Yay, a let's break everything by allowing passage through walls idea! Crossfire should NEVER allow passage throug no_pass tiles. No Pass means no pass, walls shoud _always_ be no_pass (by default). Don't make the maps worthless please. --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik > wrote: > > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, > stealthy, can move > > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold > items in inventory > > (except invisible ones of course), The only attack > then avaliable is > > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, > drain, and life > > slealing. > > > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I > do not see how it > > will make them overpowered. Running for the > nearest wall will often be > > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but > that will be the only > > way of surviving, since you would die from three > hits by a powerful > > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as > they are hitting > > you. > > Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall (like > they do in ADOM > with ghosts)? > > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a > /big/ hit points > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac > bonus too ?) > > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything > up, or interact > > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, > or anything like > > that. > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. > > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue > they are in this mode? > > > This would also mean players can not take stuff > out of treasure > > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then > walk out again > > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to > steal it without > > completing the quest. > > You need to deal with switching out of this mode > inside the treasure > room (you try to adress this later) > > That could still lead to lots of potential spoilers > (you could observe > the boulder layout and infer information from that) > > > Also you should not be able to go into void > squares to get to other > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You > should be able to apply > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares > with no tiles on. > > > There is howerver a case of the player going into > the mode sneaking up > > to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking > it out. The only > > way out of this I see is to only provide one way > of leaving the mode > > once entered: by visiting some well defined set of > points (like an > > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new > body). This way it > > will be impossible for a player to either cheat in > the quest or help > > other players cheat. > > Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps > that have alters in > dungeons, and these might get placed in areas where > a player could get > stuck. > > Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship > devourers? > > There are similar issues with graveyard placement, > plus it is a little > illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but a > 'fresh' one > should not. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 11:40:09 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:23:19 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Please do not implement this passing through walls stuff. I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not want my maps to become worthless because someone decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. --- Anton Oussik wrote: > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally > wrote: > > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik > wrote: > > > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, > stealthy, can move > > > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold > items in inventory > > > (except invisible ones of course), The only > attack then avaliable is > > > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, > drain, and life > > > slealing. > > > > > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so > I do not see how it > > > will make them overpowered. Running for the > nearest wall will often be > > > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but > that will be the only > > > way of surviving, since you would die from three > hits by a powerful > > > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast > as they are hitting > > > you. > > > > Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall > (like they do in ADOM > > with ghosts)? > > I believe they will with the current code. I have > killed monsters > stuck in walls before. > > > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? > > No. They can not pass through walls as they are, and > therefore you can > not take them with you. I say again, nothing worn, > nothing carried. If > it shows up in inventory, you can not take it with > you. > > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be > a /big/ hit points > > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small > ac bonus too ?) > > Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight > something, and say that again. > > > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick > anything up, or interact > > > with the environment, like push switches, > buttons, or anything like > > > that. > > > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. > > I am not sure the server will like that, but yes, > essentially. > > > > Would you change the face as well, to give some > clue they are in this mode? > > Being invisible will change the face automatically. > It will be like > wearing god finger. > > > > This would also mean players can not take stuff > out of treasure > > > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and > then walk out again > > > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able > to steal it without > > > completing the quest. > > > > You need to deal with switching out of this mode > inside the treasure > > room (you try to adress this later) > > I think I do. > > > > Also you should not be able to go into void > squares to get to other > > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You > should be able to apply > > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares > with no tiles on. > > True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if > sometimes you can > wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to > see many of them, > and that is not much of a problem. > > > > There is howerver a case of the player going > into the mode sneaking up > > > to a switch opening treasure room, and then > taking it out. The only > > > way out of this I see is to only provide one way > of leaving the mode > > > once entered: by visiting some well defined set > of points (like an > > > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a > new body). This way it > > > will be impossible for a player to either cheat > in the quest or help > > > other players cheat. > > > > Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps > that have alters in > > dungeons, and these might get placed in areas > where a player could get > > stuck. > > > > Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship > devourers? > > > > There are similar issues with graveyard placement, > plus it is a little > > illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but > a 'fresh' one > > should not. > > Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems > something new > needs to be introduced into the game, and placed > around towns to allow > wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found > anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:24:25 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:27:41 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510191000x72b62573od6a90eadc4fea898@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051017202756.ZEBW1858.tomts39-srv.bellnexxia.net@209.226.175.82> <7903f03c0510172113j3174f372mda168e09cbe9923a@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190754o3df48e2el49b54c88713452af@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510190849p755e74afj2b726b2a283ddec8@mail.gmail.com> <7903f03c0510191000x72b62573od6a90eadc4fea898@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally wrote: > > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points > > > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) > > > > Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight something, and say that again. > > A lvl 100 wraith with high level karate is still reasonably powerful. Yes, but I want it to be playable like this, so someone might want to change to this mode and stay in it... for ever? A problem I see with staying in non-corporial form for ever is food. You would still use up food but have no way to replenish it. When feeding off others with wraith_touch food should go up as well as hp. Would this need a new attack type food_steal? Maybe wraith in this mode should also see invisible? > > > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? > > > > Being invisible will change the face automatically. It will be like > > wearing god finger. > > on a related but tangential point, would it be possible to make > invisible characters appear on their controller's screen? I am > thinking with the face having a medium alpha value, so that it appears > to be partially seethrough. I often find it hard when controlling an > invisible character to know where they are. I thought of that before, and then you will not be able to tell if someone cast reveal invisible on you. Maybe set to 75% transparrency for own invisible character? > > > > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > > > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > > > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > > > > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. > > > > True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if sometimes you can > > wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to see many of them, > > and that is not much of a problem. > > yes, but there are maps designed so that x-ray vision won't let you > see them, where as your walking through walls would (scorn gatehouse > is an example of this). I still do not see this as a huge cheat to be able to see some mechanisms. I imagine ghosts in ancient castles could too! > > Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems something new > > needs to be introduced into the game, and placed around towns to allow > > wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found anywhere. > > taxidermists? I imagine this should be a relatively big thing to shed one's body, so taking a physical form should require a ritual of some sort to be performed. Maybe a map with a large pentagram, with lots of people reading some prayers, and if wraith steps over the body and stays there for half an hour they get re-incarnated? From leaf at real-time.com Wed Oct 19 12:32:26 2005 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:33:42 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Reminder - posting etiquette Message-ID: Hi everyone, Just a quick reminder on some mailing list posting etiquette.. Please trim your replies so that they only include the previous and relevant content for your reply. Including the entire content of the message over and over again not only adds to the unnecessary message size, but can make list searching much more bloated then it needs to be. When posting or asking about a /new/ topic, please start by composing a new message so that the topic threading of the archive is maintained. See the example of topic threading in this month's archive: http://mailman.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/2005-October/thread.html Please do not post in HTML format. Many mailing list recipients have filters in place to reject these messages, which I then have to deal with through Mailman. Plus, it often makes a visual mess in the list archive (not to mention the security concerns with html based email.) For those interested in further reading, http://crossfire.real-time.com/mailinglists/index.html#etiquette http://www.gweep.ca/~edmonds/usenet/ml-etiquette.html Thank you. -- From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:35:31 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:35:43 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510191035n41b6a1b1ta151ac77fa6effb9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > Please do not implement this passing through walls > stuff. > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not > want my maps to become worthless because someone > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. If it were a new movement type, then it would be possible to block it explicitly. How many maps would need modified to block that movement type for one reason or another? From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:45:09 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:45:42 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > Please do NOT make anyone able to go through walls. > Why is this idea being considered? It would make maps > useless. How would this make maps useless? From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 12:36:33 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:53:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Please do NOT make anyone able to go through walls. It would be better to remove the wraith player (I don't recommend this though) then have a player that can move through walls. Why is this idea being considered? It would make maps useless. Please don't implement this. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 15:43:48 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 16:00:07 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510191035n41b6a1b1ta151ac77fa6effb9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051019204348.44945.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> All of them. No player should ever beable to move through walls (unless specified by the map perhapse). Walls should remain no_pass. Now if you wanted walls that things could pass through... up to the map maker, but don't change the default behavior. Don't f**k up the existing maps or my maps please. This idea is horrible IMHO. Why not just have blank maps then if you're going to screw up walls. How bout a fork of crossfire "wallsmeannothing-fire". It wouldn't even need any maps. I can't believe this is even being seriously discussed. Someone come's in and says "hey let's make walls passable!!111" and here we are "oh yea... they're like not walls!" If you can't get around that fact wraith-players can't go through walls... then take wraits out (not recommended). This is stupidity. Why should anyone even BOTHER to make maps if a player can just phase through the whole thing? If you want a space sim... fork the project. --- Brendan Lally wrote: > On 10/19/05, Mitch Obrian > wrote: > > Please do not implement this passing through walls > > stuff. > > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do > not > > want my maps to become worthless because someone > > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. > > If it were a new movement type, then it would be > possible to block it > explicitly. > > How many maps would need modified to block that > movement type for one > reason or another? > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From temitchell at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 19 17:52:30 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Wed Oct 19 17:51:46 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510191035n41b6a1b1ta151ac77fa6effb9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510191035n41b6a1b1ta151ac77fa6effb9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4356CE2E.5070703@sympatico.ca> If there were an etheral movement type added it would not be implemented in existing maps by default (they still have "block all") just like the other movement changes. In archived movement related threads this 'ghostwalk' type movement was proposed. I would also put forth an addition to the suggestions, the idea that etheral travelers would not be able to pass 'iron' either so it would only work against wood walls and stone and the like. This gives us an out as well to explain why some walls aren't passable - they have iron in them (like in the nails of a door or in the ore of the stone/dirt). Brendan Lally wrote: >On 10/19/05, Mitch Obrian wrote: > > >>Please do not implement this passing through walls >>stuff. >>I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not >>want my maps to become worthless because someone >>decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. >> >> > >If it were a new movement type, then it would be possible to block it >explicitly. > >How many maps would need modified to block that movement type for one >reason or another? > >_______________________________________________ > > From antonoussik at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 18:32:38 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Wed Oct 19 18:33:46 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: <4356CE2E.5070703@sympatico.ca> References: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510191035n41b6a1b1ta151ac77fa6effb9@mail.gmail.com> <4356CE2E.5070703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 19/10/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: > I would also put forth an > addition to the suggestions, the idea that etheral travelers would not > be able to pass 'iron' either so it would only work against wood walls > and stone and the like. That may work. That would make some areas completely inaccessible to an ethereal player unless aided by someone corporial. Many maps may need changing as the result if this is implemented, but I can see this working. From temitchell at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 19 18:58:00 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Wed Oct 19 18:57:48 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> There isn't any real difference between walls and other blocked tiles (like water) currently - everything is either blocked or not blocked. This is all part of the changes Mark is making to the movement code. Changing the blocking code has a lot of interesting repercussions. That's why it's being discussed. With the changes to movement - existing maps cannot be automatically changed since they will break. However new maps and updates to old maps will be better designed if we hash out as many of the different movement changes we want to make in advance. There has been some interesting ideas - I think it would be good to point out that we want to make movement as consistant and understandable as possible to avoid players having to experiment with every object on the map. This will mean when you do break the rules it will be effective. A quick summary of ideas I have: very high mountains (mountain_5) remains blocked high mountains (mountain_4) require 'climbing' or 'flying' movement type to pass rivers remain blocked (how to explain this re flying?) *most* wall types and doors remain blocked Wasteland remains blocked (or becomes like swamp?) except to flying shallow sea requires a 'swimming' or 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement type flying has limits on range swimming has a drowning behaviour (like swamp)? climbing has a falling behaviour (like swamp)? again these changes are foreward only and existing maps would have to be modified to use the new code/arches Mitch Obrian wrote: >Please do NOT make anyone able to go through walls. > >It would be better to remove the wraith player (I >don't recommend this though) then have a player that >can move through walls. > >Why is this idea being considered? It would make maps >useless. > >Please don't implement this. > > > From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 19:19:06 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Wed Oct 19 19:19:47 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: References: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <7903f03c0510191035n41b6a1b1ta151ac77fa6effb9@mail.gmail.com> <4356CE2E.5070703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik wrote: > On 19/10/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: > > I would also put forth an > > addition to the suggestions, the idea that etheral travelers would not > > be able to pass 'iron' either so it would only work against wood walls > > and stone and the like. > > That may work. That would make some areas completely inaccessible to > an ethereal player unless aided by someone corporial. Many maps may > need changing as the result if this is implemented, but I can see this > working. I would suggest preventing such players from passing walls that have "nomagic" set on one of the items on those squares. This would highly reduce the amount of maps that would have to be changed, to prevent abuse of this feature. Where map makers want to restrict players from passing through walls, the "nomagic" flag is used already, to hinder Dimension Door. -- Andrew Fuchs From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:19:25 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 20:19:47 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> On 10/20/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: > A quick summary of ideas I have: > > very high mountains (mountain_5) remains blocked > high mountains (mountain_4) require 'climbing' or 'flying' movement type > to pass On a related note, whilst all these tiles need updating, flattening the tiles a little may be worthwhile (mountains 1 and 2 become hills, hills become flat ground) - currently the world map is very mountainous, flattening it would aid movement. > rivers remain blocked (how to explain this re flying?) with reference to back to the future - hoverboards don't work over water. > *most* wall types and doors remain blocked > Wasteland remains blocked (or becomes like swamp?) except to flying That will break the team arena. Also, since it is being changed anyway, how about altering its name to 'volcanic plain' or something similar? Wasteland sounds like something that should be traversible. > shallow sea requires a 'swimming' or 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type > sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type or a submarine movement type, which should also work on icebergs and sea ice. (not as anacronistic as might be supposed, the first submarines were in the early 17th century). > new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement Also, roads and tracks should allow carriages to pass and roads, tracks and grass should allow horses to pass. (these don't exist yet, but should). further in the future.... Desert should allow camels to pass (if there ever is a large enough desert to make that worthwhile). Tundra and glacier should be passable to husky sled. > type > flying has limits on range but you also said.... "sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type" so if a player flies out over deep sea and lands, what happens? do they insta-death? > swimming has a drowning behaviour (like swamp)? > climbing has a falling behaviour (like swamp)? From temitchell at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 19 21:00:32 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Wed Oct 19 21:01:48 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> Brendan Lally wrote: >On 10/20/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: > > >>A quick summary of ideas I have: >> >>very high mountains (mountain_5) remains blocked >>high mountains (mountain_4) require 'climbing' or 'flying' movement type >>to pass >> >> > >On a related note, whilst all these tiles need updating, flattening >the tiles a little may be worthwhile (mountains 1 and 2 become hills, >hills become flat ground) - currently the world map is very >mountainous, flattening it would aid movement. > > > I think that mountains give the world more surface area - there more nooks and crannies to develop. They also make travel meaningful and to direct movement to areas of interest. Also over time the idea was for people to carve out areas in the mountains like was done with the Ring Mountains. If there is no where to go to, just flattening the mountains to aid movement would actually shrink the game world IMHO. You have people just locking into run mode and zipping along for a while. Getting there should be half the fun and there are always portals and boats and other shortcuts for the road weary. >>rivers remain blocked (how to explain this re flying?) >> >> > >with reference to back to the future - hoverboards don't work over water. > > > But you can still fly over seas... until you tire. The reason I suggest we need to restrict rivers is because they are so often used to direct movement already and they have fords and bridges to allow passage. >>*most* wall types and doors remain blocked >>Wasteland remains blocked (or becomes like swamp?) except to flying >> >> > >That will break the team arena. > >Also, since it is being changed anyway, how about altering its name to >'volcanic plain' or something similar? Wasteland sounds like something >that should be traversible. > > > Nothing will break since the existing functionality will not change. >>shallow sea requires a 'swimming' or 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type >>sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type >> >> > >or a submarine movement type, which should also work on icebergs and >sea ice. (not as anacronistic as might be supposed, the first >submarines were in the early 17th century). > > > >>new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement >> >> > >Also, roads and tracks should allow carriages to pass and roads, >tracks and grass should allow horses to pass. (these don't exist yet, >but should). > >further in the future.... >Desert should allow camels to pass (if there ever is a large enough >desert to make that worthwhile). > >Tundra and glacier should be passable to husky sled. > > > not sure that fits in since those types don't involve blocking in any way. We are really speaking of blocking movement, not movement types per se. >>type >>flying has limits on range >> >> > >but you also said.... "sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or >'flying' movement type" > >so if a player flies out over deep sea and lands, what happens? do >they insta-death? > > > I think if they can't swim they would probably drown. If they could swim they better hope they make it back to land before they drown. I imagine you can't recuperate fatigue so you can fly again while you are swimming... From temitchell at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 19 21:09:42 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Wed Oct 19 21:09:49 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4356FC66.80900@sympatico.ca> I should clarify this - I meant we should consider adding new 'impassible' forest and jungle arches which only those with woodlore or flying creatures could pass. This would be really dense forests but elves and halflings and those with woodsman skills could get by. I didn't mean to replace the existing wooded arches which slow movement. >> >>> new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' >>> movement >> From brenlally at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 21:17:39 2005 From: brenlally at gmail.com (Brendan Lally) Date: Wed Oct 19 21:17:55 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <7903f03c0510191917r6b4c488bj9ee589ce1a780cba@mail.gmail.com> On 10/20/05, Todd Mitchell wrote: > Brendan Lally wrote: > >with reference to back to the future - hoverboards don't work over water. > > > But you can still fly over seas... until you tire. The reason I suggest > we need to restrict rivers is because they are so often used to direct > movement already and they have fords and bridges to allow passage. Restrict such a restriction to fresh water? (salt in the water [techobabble] so that the [technobabble] provides greater lifting force) > >but you also said.... "sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or > >'flying' movement type" > > > >so if a player flies out over deep sea and lands, what happens? do > >they insta-death? > > > I think if they can't swim they would probably drown. If they could > swim they better hope they make it back to land before they drown. But if deep see is blocked to swimming, then they won't be able to swim back. > I > imagine you can't recuperate fatigue so you can fly again while you are > swimming... That will be guarenteed death then. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 21:33:31 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 22:07:31 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051020023331.48556.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I agree > I think that mountains give the world more surface > area - there more > nooks and crannies to develop. They also make > travel meaningful and to > direct movement to areas of interest. Also over > time the idea was for > people to carve out areas in the mountains like was > done with the Ring > Mountains. If there is no where to go to, just > flattening the mountains > to aid movement would actually shrink the game world > IMHO. You have > people just locking into run mode and zipping along > for a while. > Getting there should be half the fun and there are > always portals and > boats and other shortcuts for the road weary. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From lalo at exoweb.net Wed Oct 19 22:39:02 2005 From: lalo at exoweb.net (Lalo Martins) Date: Wed Oct 19 22:41:50 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051019164010.64473.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And so says Mitch Obrian on 10/20/2005 12:40 AM... > Please do not implement this passing through walls > stuff. > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not > want my maps to become worthless because someone > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. uh... ever heard of this thing called "dimension door"? I believe it's been in crossfire for years, it certainly was already there when I first played it in 2001. best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. -- http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:lalo@exoweb.net GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ From mwedel at sonic.net Wed Oct 19 22:55:07 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Wed Oct 19 22:55:51 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <7903f03c0510191917r6b4c488bj9ee589ce1a780cba@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191917r6b4c488bj9ee589ce1a780cba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4357151B.5070201@sonic.net> Rivers are a messy case. Blocking swimming and flying over them doesn't make a lot of sense if you can fly over lots of other stuff. While they are often used to protect areas, I'd make the case that in most of the bigworld map, allowing people to fly/swim over them wouldn't be that big a deal - sure, there is a bridge down a ways, but letting someone fly over upstream shouldn't be a problem. After all, it then makes zero sense that if I follow a river down to the sea, I can swim or fly over the shallow water to get around the river, but not over the river itself. That said, there are certainly a few places where it really needs to block movement. The problem is that in many of those, it can look artificial (look, a nice ring of river). As a note, and this includes ethereal travel, any changes to the blocking of spaces has to be done on a map by map/space by space basis. IF we change the archetypes to suddenly allow swimming and flying over shallow water, I think we'll find many maps just got broken. Same for ethereal travel through walls. That said, I could certainly see someone writing scripts (or updating the java editor) with something like 'allow ethereal travel on walls on this map' or something, so that its just a simple 'is it ok to do on this map or not' type of update. But I do think giving someone permanent or at will ethereal travel will be very powerful, even with some of the limitations. The fact is that lots of maps have enough wall space where an ethereal creature could effectively hide out away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather temporary items (potions) be added first and see what that breaks. I'm also a bit reluctant to add tons of new movement types. After all, at some level, the movement type is the same, what is different is that some things may move through spaces better than others. So rather than adding a desert movement type (or camel), I'd rather desert have a high enough slow move penalty to make it very slow to move through, and then give camels some ability to ignore that (built in desert movement skill or something). Similar for forest and jungles - I'm not sure I want a new movement type, vs making it painfully slow enough you have the appropriate skills. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 22:51:50 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Wed Oct 19 23:14:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4356FC66.80900@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051020035150.96537.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> New arches are always good, should come with new pics though aswell (shouldn't be too hard). Perhapse I'll wip (or modify) them up (suggestions?) once the movement code is all in and happy, unless someone else want's to do it. --- Todd Mitchell wrote: > I should clarify this - I meant we should consider > adding new > 'impassible' forest and jungle arches which only > those with woodlore or > flying creatures could pass. This would be really > dense forests but > elves and halflings and those with woodsman skills > could get by. I > didn't mean to replace the existing wooded arches > which slow movement. > > >> > >>> new types of jungle and woods require a > 'woodlands' or 'flying' > >>> movement > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From eracclists at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 20 01:34:12 2005 From: eracclists at bellsouth.net (ERACC) Date: Thu Oct 20 01:35:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Ruggilli - altar blessing Message-ID: <200510200134.12895.eracclists@bellsouth.net> Hi Y'all, Uhm, ok. Ruggilli's blessing is "(slay chaotic_water_creatures)"?! What the heck is that, Ixalovh? If so, Ruggilli's pantheon entry on crossfire.real-time.com needs an update. Why not also bless the weapon with immolation? Seems that would be a proper blessing for Ruggilli. Can some code genious please fix the Ruggilli blessing to make immolation part of the weapon blessing? TIA, Gene Alexander -- Linux era4.eracc.UUCP 2.6.8.1-12mdk i686 01:25:08 up 155 days, 2:06, 10 users, load average: 0.03, 0.09, 0.11 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eCS, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer & UnixWare resellers From antonoussik at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 02:09:30 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Thu Oct 20 02:11:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4357151B.5070201@sonic.net> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191917r6b4c488bj9ee589ce1a780cba@mail.gmail.com> <4357151B.5070201@sonic.net> Message-ID: On 20/10/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > But I do think giving someone permanent or at will ethereal travel will be > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. The fact is that lots of maps > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature could effectively hide out > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather temporary items (potions) > be added first and see what that breaks. There is already a map which does that. You can find it in Lake Country , in the training tower, if you go up 3-4 floors. You can then apply a dust and gain ability to walk through walls on that map for a while. I imagine it does it with a force and checkinv in every space that looks like a wall. From antonoussik at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 02:09:30 2005 From: antonoussik at gmail.com (Anton Oussik) Date: Thu Oct 20 02:12:00 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4357151B.5070201@sonic.net> References: <20051019173634.44142.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <4356DD88.1050205@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191819k2df5b7a8l982a0cd800508842@mail.gmail.com> <4356FA40.9000501@sympatico.ca> <7903f03c0510191917r6b4c488bj9ee589ce1a780cba@mail.gmail.com> <4357151B.5070201@sonic.net> Message-ID: On 20/10/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > But I do think giving someone permanent or at will ethereal travel will be > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. The fact is that lots of maps > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature could effectively hide out > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather temporary items (potions) > be added first and see what that breaks. There is already a map which does that. You can find it in Lake Country , in the training tower, if you go up 3-4 floors. You can then apply a dust and gain ability to walk through walls on that map for a while. I imagine it does it with a force and checkinv in every space that looks like a wall. From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 10:42:39 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Thu Oct 20 11:14:40 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051020154240.82819.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> With DD you can't go through things you can't see through. --- Lalo Martins wrote: > And so says Mitch Obrian on 10/20/2005 12:40 AM... > > Please do not implement this passing through walls > > stuff. > > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do > not > > want my maps to become worthless because someone > > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. > > uh... ever heard of this thing called "dimension > door"? I believe it's > been in crossfire for years, it certainly was > already there when I first > played it in 2001. > > best, > Lalo > Martins > -- > So many of our dreams at first seem > impossible, > then they seem improbable, and then, when we > summon the will, they soon become inevitable. > -- > http://www.exoweb.net/ > mailto:lalo@exoweb.net > GNU: never give up freedom > http://www.gnu.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 10:44:09 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Thu Oct 20 11:14:48 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: <4357151B.5070201@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20051020154409.54151.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Ethereal travel should fail where Dimention door fails: No magic and can't see through areas. (If I have a wall one cant see through it should fail, same if I have a wall that has no magic set on it or a no magic tile there). --- Mark Wedel wrote: > > Rivers are a messy case. Blocking swimming and > flying over them doesn't make > a lot of sense if you can fly over lots of other > stuff. > > While they are often used to protect areas, I'd > make the case that in most of > the bigworld map, allowing people to fly/swim over > them wouldn't be that big a > deal - sure, there is a bridge down a ways, but > letting someone fly over > upstream shouldn't be a problem. > > After all, it then makes zero sense that if I > follow a river down to the sea, > I can swim or fly over the shallow water to get > around the river, but not over > the river itself. > > That said, there are certainly a few places where > it really needs to block > movement. The problem is that in many of those, it > can look artificial (look, a > nice ring of river). > > As a note, and this includes ethereal travel, any > changes to the blocking of > spaces has to be done on a map by map/space by space > basis. IF we change the > archetypes to suddenly allow swimming and flying > over shallow water, I think > we'll find many maps just got broken. Same for > ethereal travel through walls. > > That said, I could certainly see someone writing > scripts (or updating the java > editor) with something like 'allow ethereal travel > on walls on this map' or > something, so that its just a simple 'is it ok to do > on this map or not' type of > update. > > But I do think giving someone permanent or at will > ethereal travel will be > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. > The fact is that lots of maps > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature > could effectively hide out > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather > temporary items (potions) > be added first and see what that breaks. > > > I'm also a bit reluctant to add tons of new > movement types. After all, at > some level, the movement type is the same, what is > different is that some things > may move through spaces better than others. > > So rather than adding a desert movement type (or > camel), I'd rather desert > have a high enough slow move penalty to make it very > slow to move through, and > then give camels some ability to ignore that (built > in desert movement skill or > something). > > Similar for forest and jungles - I'm not sure I > want a new movement type, vs > making it painfully slow enough you have the > appropriate skills. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 10:47:06 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Thu Oct 20 11:14:53 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051020154706.52876.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, and that's fine for that map. I don't want my prisondemadness suddenly becoming worthless, or my maps suddenly becoming easily traverable because OMG WE SHOULD WALK THROUGH WALLS WITH WRAITHS!!!! (else brain esplode!). Why should anyone make maps if you're going to implement this. I'm not going to constantaly go through all my maps to "fix" them because dev people keep making things worthless. --- Anton Oussik wrote: > On 20/10/05, Mark Wedel wrote: > > But I do think giving someone permanent or at > will ethereal travel will be > > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. > The fact is that lots of maps > > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature > could effectively hide out > > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much > rather temporary items (potions) > > be added first and see what that breaks. > > There is already a map which does that. You can find > it in Lake > Country , in the training tower, if you go up 3-4 > floors. You can then > apply a dust and gain ability to walk through walls > on that map for a > while. I imagine it does it with a force and > checkinv in every space > that looks like a wall. > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From lordyoukai at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:14:10 2005 From: lordyoukai at gmail.com (Lord Youkai) Date: Thu Oct 20 17:16:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage Message-ID: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> I've been wondering if there was a way to embed a read-only view of chat into a server's webpage. For example, DeviantArt has a readonly view of the shoutbox in a sidebar, when your not logged in. It updates only when you refresh (unless your in the shoutbox itself) the page. Perhaps a neat feature to add along with inter-server chat could be an ability to embed a view of the current chats on a server. Server -> web page communication has been done, as Mikee has proved with his "Most richest players list".. Just wondering. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20051020/9a92be75/attachment.htm From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:31:23 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Thu Oct 20 18:32:14 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/20/05, Lord Youkai wrote: > I've been wondering if there was a way to embed a read-only view of chat > into a server's webpage. > For example, > DeviantArt has a readonly view of the shoutbox in a sidebar, when your not > logged in. > It updates only when you refresh (unless your in the shoutbox itself) the > page. > Perhaps a neat feature to add along with inter-server chat could be an > ability to embed a view of the current > chats on a server. > Server -> web page communication has been done, as Mikee has proved with his > "Most richest players list".. > Just wondering. Not quite. Those are static pages from scripts, that prases the player, and unique-map data. There is one script in the server distribution, that generates a page, showing player's scores. To implement this, you would need to store recent chats somewhere. Most likely this would be in a file. Ultimately, implementing this seems kind of hackish, but may be posible to use scripts for the python plugin, that can be installed on a per-server basis. -- Andrew Fuchs From josh at woosworld.net Thu Oct 20 18:45:46 2005 From: josh at woosworld.net (Joshua Wilson) Date: Thu Oct 20 18:46:08 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: References: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43582C2A.2060504@woosworld.net> Un Andrew Fuchs wrote: > Not quite. Those are static pages from scripts, that prases the > player, and unique-map data. > There is one script in the server distribution, that generates a page, > showing player's scores. > > To implement this, you would need to store recent chats somewhere. > Most likely this would be in a file. > > Ultimately, implementing this seems kind of hackish, but may be > posible to use scripts for the python plugin, that can be installed on > a per-server basis. > Unless the server implemented a sort of "light" client interface? I'm not a client person so I can't really comment here, but could we have a client similar to an old telnet client that only subscribed to chat/shout messages? i.e. some form of bot that may or may not even need to login? > -- > Andrew Fuchs > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- Joshua Wilson www.woosworld.net From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 20:48:34 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Thu Oct 20 20:50:10 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: <43582C2A.2060504@woosworld.net> References: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> <43582C2A.2060504@woosworld.net> Message-ID: On 10/20/05, Joshua Wilson wrote: ... > > Unless the server implemented a sort of "light" client interface? I'm > not a client person so I can't really comment here, but could we have a > client similar to an old telnet client that only subscribed to > chat/shout messages? i.e. some form of bot that may or may not even need > to login? Such exists, just send "oldsocketmode" without the usual bytecount, when you first connect. then you can see shouts, and chats, and use the "who" command. You can't easily use this interface for much more though, since it has become somewhat broken (you can log in, but the "shout" command won't work, "chat" will though; also when loged in, food usage applies). Additionaly, there is the posibility that it will be removed in the future, because of it being broken. -- Andrew Fuchs From yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com Fri Oct 21 01:51:29 2005 From: yann.chachkoff at myrealbox.com (Yann Chachkoff) Date: Fri Oct 21 01:52:14 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510210851.38954.yann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Le Vendredi 21 Octobre 2005 00:14, Lord Youkai a ?crit : > I've been wondering if there was a way to embed a read-only view of chat > into a server's webpage. > For example, > DeviantArt has a readonly view of the shoutbox in a sidebar, when your not > logged in. > It updates only when you refresh (unless your in the shoutbox itself) the > page. > The old Logger basically did this. Note that it is currently being rewritten, because it stayed in the cold for so long that it wasn't working anymore (and nobody obviously cared about it). > Perhaps a neat feature to add along with inter-server chat could be an > ability to embed a view of the current > chats on a server. > Server -> web page communication has been done, as Mikee has proved with > his "Most richest players list".. > *hum* again, the logger code for that kind of thing appeared in 2001 (it went to use on MiDS's server) - it used the logger alongside PHP pages and a postgresql database to do the job. There weren't really inter-server facilities, since those simply didn't exist at the time in the server. The problem was that it wasn't easy to set up. Furthermore, when the skill system changed, the plugin didn't get updated and became partly broken. Since it was in such a bad shape, I scrapped it during the plugin v2.0 transition a couple of days ago and am in the process of rewriting it. If you want to have a look at the old logger capabilities, just download one of the current "stable" server packages and have a look at the content of plugin_logger/. http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~crossfire should also still hold records of the logger, although the server seems down ATM. Expect the rewrite to have about the same functionalities as the old version, but hopefully with a cleaner, better implementation :). > Just wondering. -- Yann Chachkoff ----------------------- Garden Dwarf's Best Friend ----------------------- GPG Key : http://keyserver.veridis.com:11371/export?id=9080288987474372064 Fingerprint: 6616 2E02 BAD2 4AEF C90A F1EB 7E03 AAB9 844D 25E0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20051021/0d35b6d2/attachment.pgp From tchize at myrealbox.com Fri Oct 21 03:05:34 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (Tchize) Date: Fri Oct 21 03:06:15 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: <200510210851.38954.yann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> References: <2501b33a0510201514x61c531e9n6c6959f4ae7c669b@mail.gmail.com> <200510210851.38954.yann.chachkoff@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <4358A14E.2000509@myrealbox.com> You can get access to static copies of logger stuff from mids server in the webarchive while mids' is down: http://web.archive.org/web/20040429115347/mids.student.utwente.nl/~crossfire/loggerstuff/crossfire/ Yann Chachkoff a ?crit : >Le Vendredi 21 Octobre 2005 00:14, Lord Youkai a ?crit : > > >>I've been wondering if there was a way to embed a read-only view of chat >>into a server's webpage. >>For example, >>DeviantArt has a readonly view of the shoutbox in a sidebar, when your not >>logged in. >>It updates only when you refresh (unless your in the shoutbox itself) the >>page. >> >> >> >The old Logger basically did this. Note that it is currently being rewritten, >because it stayed in the cold for so long that it wasn't working anymore (and >nobody obviously cared about it). > > > >>Perhaps a neat feature to add along with inter-server chat could be an >>ability to embed a view of the current >>chats on a server. >>Server -> web page communication has been done, as Mikee has proved with >>his "Most richest players list".. >> >> >> >*hum* again, the logger code for that kind of thing appeared in 2001 (it went >to use on MiDS's server) - it used the logger alongside PHP pages and a >postgresql database to do the job. There weren't really inter-server >facilities, since those simply didn't exist at the time in the server. > >The problem was that it wasn't easy to set up. Furthermore, when the skill >system changed, the plugin didn't get updated and became partly broken. Since >it was in such a bad shape, I scrapped it during the plugin v2.0 transition a >couple of days ago and am in the process of rewriting it. > >If you want to have a look at the old logger capabilities, just download one >of the current "stable" server packages and have a look at the content of >plugin_logger/. http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~crossfire should also still >hold records of the logger, although the server seems down ATM. > >Expect the rewrite to have about the same functionalities as the old version, >but hopefully with a cleaner, better implementation :). > > > >>Just wondering. >> >> > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >crossfire mailing list >crossfire@metalforge.org >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > From temitchell at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 21 16:10:47 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (temitchell@sympatico.ca) Date: Fri Oct 21 16:17:21 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. Message-ID: <20051021211047.EODH3485.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.82]> > > From: Mark Wedel > > I'm also a bit reluctant to add tons of new movement types. After all, at > some level, the movement type is the same, what is different is that some things > may move through spaces better than others. > > So rather than adding a desert movement type (or camel), I'd rather desert > have a high enough slow move penalty to make it very slow to move through, and > then give camels some ability to ignore that (built in desert movement skill or > something). I agree with this, basically movement types would only be useful when you have a blocking condition they would address. Otherwise in these cases slowing or speeding movement is perhaps better (and uses different code). > > Similar for forest and jungles - I'm not sure I want a new movement type, vs > making it painfully slow enough you have the appropriate skills. > True enough, I was thinking of balancing starting racial benefits such as dragon flight - however this can easily become an arms race where everyone looses (elves and halflings get forestwalk, dragons get flying, serpentmen get swimming, humans and dwarves get screwed over...) and maybe isn't a good idea. Maybe we should rethink racial flight given the new value of flying - only giving it out as a usable race-skill later on in the player development. Also if you want to block arrows and such you can make arches that do that anyway with the current suggestions. From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 23:58:53 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Sat Oct 22 00:00:32 2005 Subject: [crossfire] "noalchemy" tile, to prevent repetitions of recent events Message-ID: As I write this, several characters on metalforge are performing alchemy in places like, the Hall of Sellection, /start/Nexus, and in the middle of scorn. Basicly, I think we could really use a tile, that prevents the use of alchemy. -- Andrew Fuchs From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 08:47:22 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sat Oct 22 11:27:32 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051022134722.71480.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> You can crash the server with old sockets mode :(. --- Andrew Fuchs wrote: > On 10/20/05, Joshua Wilson > wrote: > ... > > > > Unless the server implemented a sort of "light" > client interface? I'm > > not a client person so I can't really comment > here, but could we have a > > client similar to an old telnet client that only > subscribed to > > chat/shout messages? i.e. some form of bot that > may or may not even need > > to login? > > Such exists, just send "oldsocketmode" without the > usual bytecount, > when you first connect. then you can see shouts, > and chats, and use > the "who" command. > > You can't easily use this interface for much more > though, since it has > become somewhat broken (you can log in, but the > "shout" command won't > work, "chat" will though; also when loged in, food > usage applies). > Additionaly, there is the posibility that it will be > removed in the > future, because of it being broken. > > -- > Andrew Fuchs > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mwedel at sonic.net Sat Oct 22 22:51:35 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sat Oct 22 22:50:52 2005 Subject: [crossfire] chat-embeddable in webpage In-Reply-To: <20051022134722.71480.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051022134722.71480.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435B08C7.7010101@sonic.net> Mitch Obrian wrote: > You can crash the server with old sockets mode :(. There were bugs with this in the past, but I haven't heard of any recently on this. > > --- Andrew Fuchs wrote: > >> On 10/20/05, Joshua Wilson >> wrote: >> ... >>> Unless the server implemented a sort of "light" >> client interface? I'm >>> not a client person so I can't really comment >> here, but could we have a >>> client similar to an old telnet client that only >> subscribed to >>> chat/shout messages? i.e. some form of bot that >> may or may not even need >>> to login? >> Such exists, just send "oldsocketmode" without the >> usual bytecount, >> when you first connect. then you can see shouts, >> and chats, and use >> the "who" command. >> >> You can't easily use this interface for much more >> though, since it has >> become somewhat broken (you can log in, but the >> "shout" command won't >> work, "chat" will though; also when loged in, food >> usage applies). >> Additionaly, there is the posibility that it will be >> removed in the >> future, because of it being broken. >> >> -- >> Andrew Fuchs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> crossfire mailing list >> crossfire@metalforge.org >> > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire From mwedel at sonic.net Sat Oct 22 22:52:27 2005 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sat Oct 22 22:56:52 2005 Subject: [crossfire] "noalchemy" tile, to prevent repetitions of recent events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435B08FB.9060209@sonic.net> Andrew Fuchs wrote: > As I write this, several characters on metalforge are performing > alchemy in places like, the Hall of Sellection, /start/Nexus, and in > the middle of scorn. > > Basicly, I think we could really use a tile, that prevents the use of alchemy. Probably simplest to just make it that if the space is no magic, can't do alchemy. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Oct 23 02:53:53 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun Oct 23 02:54:55 2005 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?b?UmU6IFtjcm9zc2ZpcmVdICJub2FsY2hlbXkiIHRpbGUsCXRvIHBy?= =?iso-8859-1?b?ZXZlbnQgcmVwZXRpdGlvbnMgb2YgcmVjZW50IGV2ZW50cw==?= Message-ID: > Probably simplest to just make it that if the space is no magic, can't do alchemy. That will break the guild alchemy room (no magic), and probably the alchemy shop too. Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 12:16:09 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Sun Oct 23 12:17:04 2005 Subject: [crossfire] "noalchemy" tile, to prevent repetitions of recent events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/23/05, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > > Probably simplest to just make it that if the space is no > magic, can't do alchemy. > > That will break the guild alchemy room (no magic), and > probably the alchemy shop too. Yes, it will break the guild's alchemy room, and several other areas. It may also be a good idea to prevent the use of alchemy on shop tiles. -- Andrew Fuchs From mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 14:12:47 2005 From: mikeeusaaa at yahoo.com (Mitch Obrian) Date: Sun Oct 23 23:51:01 2005 Subject: [crossfire] "noalchemy" tile, to prevent repetitions of recent events In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051023191247.132.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> So just add a no alchemy tile. Why should we restrict alchemy in shops: This is the problem (though I don't see it as a problem, myself... maybe MF does): Alchemy in 2 maps. You know, we could add a servervar (setable in the config file) noalchemyonnomagic That way MF could set this and restrict alchemy and Cat2 would not set this and not restrict alchemy. Choices are good :). --- Andrew Fuchs wrote: > On 10/23/05, Nicolas Weeger > wrote: > > > Probably simplest to just make it that if the > space is no > > magic, can't do alchemy. > > > > That will break the guild alchemy room (no magic), > and > > probably the alchemy shop too. > > Yes, it will break the guild's alchemy room, and > several other areas. > > It may also be a good idea to prevent the use of > alchemy on shop tiles. > > -- > Andrew Fuchs > > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From kbulgrien at att.net Mon Oct 24 22:06:17 2005 From: kbulgrien at att.net (Kevin Bulgrien) Date: Mon Oct 24 22:13:28 2005 Subject: [crossfire] gcfclient cfsndserv_alsa9 with alsa 1.0.6 / 1.0.8 Message-ID: Does anyone actually have recent gcfclient sound that works? I have tried a couple of iterations of compiling cvs and downloading pre- made rpms for Mandrake 10.1 and Mandriva 2005LE. cfsndserv just dies. This done on three different systems also. I know alsa is up because on one system I had no sound until I ran alsaconf, but gcfclient still has no sound. When I forget to tell it to use cfsndserv_alsa9, the OSS server does not crash. See no sign of stuff in history, except a note about a failure to detect when the sound server craters. The symptom is the same for all different attempts. Here is a log. Also made sure all libraries were present in the event that there was some sort of dependency not being fulfilled. I have tried under KDE, IceWM, xfce in case something KDE was doing was mucking with it. --- $ gcfclient -sound_server /home/games/bin/cfsndserv_alsa9 [ INFO ] (Client Version) GTK Unix Client 1.8.0 [ INFO ] (gtk::init_cache_data) Init Cache [ INFO ] (common::raiseChild) Raising /home/games/bin/cfsndserv_alsa9 with flags 7 [ INFO ] (common::monitorChilds) Child /home/games/bin/cfsndserv_alsa9 died. Removing and closing pipes [ INFO ] (common::VersionCmd) Playing on server type Crossfire Server [WARNING ] (common::SetupCmd) Server returned FALSE on setup command sexp [ INFO ] (commands.c) addme_success received. [ ERROR ] (gtk::play_sound) couldn't write to sound pipe: 32 [ INFO ] (gtk::event_loo $ ldd /home/games/bin/cfsndserv_alsa9 linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000) libasound.so.2 => /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 (0x40028000) libm.so.6 => /lib/tls/libm.so.6 (0x400d9000) libpng.so.3 => /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x400fc000) libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0x40121000) libc.so.6 => /lib/tls/libc.so.6 (0x40132000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40251000) libpthread.so.0 => /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 (0x40255000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000) $ rpm -qf /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 libalsa2-1.0.6-1mdk $ rpm -qf /lib/libm.so.6 glibc-2.3.3-23.1.101mdk $ rpm -qf /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 libpng3-1.2.6-2.1.101mdk $ rpm -qf /usr/lib/libz.so.1 zlib1-1.2.1.1-3.2.101mdk $ rpm -qf /lib/libc.so.6 glibc-2.3.3-23.1.101mdk $ rpm -qf /lib/libdl.so.2 glibc-2.3.3-23.1.101mdk $ rpm -qf /lib/libpthread.so.0 glibc-2.3.3-23.1.101mdk $ rpm -qf /lib/ld-linux.so.2 glibc-2.3.3-23.1.101mdk From leaf at real-time.com Wed Oct 26 21:50:40 2005 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Wed Oct 26 21:52:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Looking for volunteer wiki editors Message-ID: <43604080.3060800@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Please contact me /offlist/ if you are interested in becoming an editor on the new Crossfire wiki ( which is running DokuWiki, http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:dokuwiki) For those interested, your responsibilities include: Importing and organizing the existing content from the freezope wiki located at http://crossfire.freezope.org/ Why? The "new" wiki will support revision tracking and revision control - which will allow users to decide what needs to be removed, revised, updated, etc. Creating a new site index of content for others to update and contribute to. Why? The current wiki as a sections Lore & Legends and another section for Facts. Is that still necessary? Does those sections and their content need a different directory structure (or tree?) to follow? Maintain the agreed upon or specified layout, flow and formatting going forward. Why? Well, neatness and organization counts! ;-) How quickly and how things move forward will depend on how many people contact me to volunteer. Thanks. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDYECAhHyvgBp+vH4RAjVmAJkBo7fk2xrRZI+Pvb05bz2bR95cYgCcChqM Tu6xETpv9a1hoHq7obUUcog= =aGNo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:05:43 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Wed Oct 26 22:06:05 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Looking for volunteer wiki editors In-Reply-To: <43604080.3060800@real-time.com> References: <43604080.3060800@real-time.com> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Rick Tanner wrote: > Please contact me /offlist/ if you are interested in becoming an editor > on the new Crossfire wiki ( which is running DokuWiki, > http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:dokuwiki) Nice, however there are, IMO, some issues with navigation, with the default template/theme that dokuwiki uses. > For those interested, your responsibilities include: > > Importing and organizing the existing content from the freezope wiki > located at http://crossfire.freezope.org/ > > Why? > The "new" wiki will support revision tracking and revision control - > which will allow users to decide what needs to be removed, revised, > updated, etc. > > Creating a new site index of content for others to update and contribute to. > > Why? > The current wiki as a sections Lore & Legends and another section for > Facts. Is that still necessary? Does those sections and their content > need a different directory structure (or tree?) to follow? I don't think separate sections are needed. Most myths are originally based off of facts, right? What would be useful though, would be a method of obscuring spoilers. For that, a note pointing to a rot-13 encoder/decoder would probably work. > Maintain the agreed upon or specified layout, flow and formatting going > forward. Hmm, should start a discussion on that. > Why? > Well, neatness and organization counts! ;-) > > > How quickly and how things move forward will depend on how many people > contact me to volunteer. > > Thanks. -- Andrew Fuchs From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:18:15 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Wed Oct 26 22:20:06 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki organization. Message-ID: Since it seems like we are getting a new wiki, it seems as the format, and organization of it is up for discussion. Should in-game (map guide, etc) be seperated from out of game stuff (client help)? Should there be a section describing each server? Should there be a section describing each server's guilds? What to do about spoilers? (rot-13?) I am thinking something along the lines of this: main page - basic game info - newbie guide - world (includes lore in here) --- Place 1 --- Place 2 --- Place 3 - out of game help ---- How to use client ---- How to setup server - misc stuff about servers --- some server ----- some guild on that server (lore, etc) -- Andrew Fuchs From tchize at myrealbox.com Thu Oct 27 04:53:04 2005 From: tchize at myrealbox.com (Tchize) Date: Thu Oct 27 04:54:13 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki organization. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4360A380.5040309@myrealbox.com> I think a wiki don't need a tree! But a clever groupment of categories. For example spoilers section should contains informations about spells which are also available under the more general game documentation. The main page should contains probably a list of various documentation categories available, along with some kind of most wanted documentation pages. Advantage of not using a tree system, we can easily reorganize the whole wiki by just changing main page and / or a few catagories. Andrew Fuchs a ?crit : >Since it seems like we are getting a new wiki, it seems as the format, >and organization of it is up for discussion. > >Should in-game (map guide, etc) be seperated from out of game stuff >(client help)? >Should there be a section describing each server? >Should there be a section describing each server's guilds? > >What to do about spoilers? (rot-13?) > >I am thinking something along the lines of this: > >main page >- basic game info >- newbie guide >- world (includes lore in here) >--- Place 1 >--- Place 2 >--- Place 3 >- out of game help >---- How to use client >---- How to setup server >- misc stuff about servers >--- some server >----- some guild on that server (lore, etc) > >-- >Andrew Fuchs > >_______________________________________________ >crossfire mailing list >crossfire@metalforge.org >http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > From alex_sch at telus.net Thu Oct 27 07:31:06 2005 From: alex_sch at telus.net (Alex Schultz) Date: Thu Oct 27 07:32:16 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki organization. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4360C88A.5090907@telus.net> Andrew Fuchs wrote: >main page >- basic game info >- newbie guide >- world (includes lore in here) >--- Place 1 >--- Place 2 >--- Place 3 >- out of game help >---- How to use client >---- How to setup server >- misc stuff about servers >--- some server >----- some guild on that server (lore, etc) > Also a section for development planning would be good. IMHO a wiki such as this is an ideal place to store ideas for others to pick up later or to record tasks they are currently working on so we don't have multiple people trying to do the same thing at once. Alex Schultz From temitchell at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 27 15:48:42 2005 From: temitchell at sympatico.ca (Todd Mitchell) Date: Thu Oct 27 15:48:20 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki organization. In-Reply-To: <4360A380.5040309@myrealbox.com> References: <4360A380.5040309@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <43613D2A.1070000@sympatico.ca> Wiki is an organizational structure of links.. You don't really need to organize it in a tree. However the old site had *two* wikis - the Fact wiki was for documentation development, the Lore wiki was for stuff that might windup *in* the game (books, signs, in the map and object lore fields, in npc dialogue...) or at least could be used to generate in game content. It looks like that wasn't necessarily being followed but for the most part that was the intent. Tchize wrote: >I think a wiki don't need a tree! But a clever groupment of categories. >For example spoilers section should contains informations >about spells which are also available under the more general >game documentation. >The main page should contains probably a list of various documentation >categories available, along with some kind of most wanted documentation >pages. Advantage of not using a tree system, we can easily reorganize >the whole wiki by just changing main page and / or a few catagories. > > From fuchs.andy at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 16:52:27 2005 From: fuchs.andy at gmail.com (Andrew Fuchs) Date: Thu Oct 27 16:54:24 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki organization. In-Reply-To: <43613D2A.1070000@sympatico.ca> References: <4360A380.5040309@myrealbox.com> <43613D2A.1070000@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I don't have that much of an oppinion about how to organize data on the wiki. However, I think it may be a good idea to bring up a few points for consideration. First, is that namespaces (as dokuwiki calls them) are used for dokuwiki's acls, which could make it easier to restrict editing to one section of the wiki. Also most implementations of a side navigation bar (templates, and patches for them) use namespaces, to determine what the sidebar should contain. -- Andrew Fuchs From kirschbaum at myrealbox.com Sun Oct 30 09:34:19 2005 From: kirschbaum at myrealbox.com (Andreas Kirschbaum) Date: Sun Oct 30 09:35:06 2005 Subject: [crossfire] Patch for bug #1173563 (Creator created Bombs malfunction) Message-ID: <20051030153419.GA6512@kirschbaum.myrealbox.com> I added a patch to fix bug #1173563 (Creator created Bombs malfunction) to the sourceforge tracker: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1342537&group_id=13833&atid=313833 Since this patch changes (small) parts of the object manipulation functions (loader, inserting objects into maps, processing active objects) I'd like to get some feedback before I actually commit it.