From kbulgrien at worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 2 01:36:25 2008 From: kbulgrien at worldnet.att.net (Kevin R. Bulgrien) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 01:36:25 -0600 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200803020136.25194.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> > I gave that class a couple spells: > firebullet - like magic bullet, this fires a bullet that does damage. It > does not explode into a fireball. Costs 1 sp to cast I think this is a good move. It is rough that the low level cold/fire/mana spells destroy loot when the new player needs it most. > firebolt - basically same as old ones, just lower damage. Costs 2 sp to > cast. > > I figure that for low level spells, when character won't have many mana, > they should start at the low end of the sp cost. I also reduced the > casting time - before, both had a fairly high time, which basically meant > that at best, you could only cast the spell every other or every third > tick. Now you can pretty much cast the spell ever ticket > > But even with that, I found that I was waiting for mana to regen a lot. > I suppose this isn't really any worse than fighters waiting for hp to > regen. Since by the very nature, these are range spells, the wizard should > ideally kill the creatures before they get next to him, and if they get > close, fall back, cast again, and so on. Except perhaps that the savvy fighter finds ways to avoid hp going down, and the caster cannot avoid spending mana or grace, so be careful of that comparison, I think. > But there are also a couple key points here - one actually needs the > space available to fall back. In the newbie tower, once I started making > progress, I could basic remain beyond the monsters detect range and hit > them with spells (and once the kobolds are dead, gives an outer circle to > move in. But the difficult time was initial assault - after opening the > doors, kobolds come out eliminating much space to move about. The monster smart movement seems a bit out of whack, but I can't be sure what is going on with that. Maybe it is monster tweaking or map oddities instead. It seems that some maps have all the mobs flooding the entrance, so the level is a ghost town when you get past the front door. Not, I think, what the map maker had in mind. Some mobs too easily detect the player (through walls, non-line of sight, etc.). Others seem normal, which makes me think it might be something other than the smart movement code. > The generator limit I put in is quite important - without that, progress > would be quite slow - getting through the front doors may have been > difficult with those generators always being there. There are a few places where the generator limit breaks the maps, but so far, the limit seems primarily reasonable, even for places like Raffle 1 which still lets you gain an awful lot of XP before all the generators disintegrate. I'll add that fixing the broken maps may be hard to get done. Even for the ones I found, its not always easy to remember to work on the map when you find the breakage, then for me, at least, it seems hard to decide what a reasonable change is to fix it. I'm not necessarily saying to not do adjustments like that, but it probably is good to keep in mind that saying maps can be fixed, and getting them fixed are completely different things. I think that getting them fixed is one of those things that does not excite people, and thus is easily ignored. > Another change I made was to give the pyromancer a spell regen bonus - > this helps reduce the waiting some more. Rather than that being a force > (how I instituted it), doing it as a ring may make more sense - player can > upgrade it, but it also means that they don't really get a bonus if they > choose a wizard and play it as a fighter (at some point, they'd likely find > a ring more suitable for a fighter, and thus loose that sp regen bonus) You talking about a ring granted at character creation? How would this ring be different from any other ring of say magic+, regeneration+, stat+, etc? It should not be taken back by the god that granted it if dropped, IMO. > I'm thinking some defensive spell may be in order, so if creatures do get > close, they get killed. OTOH, maybe that is part of being a mage - you > really don't want to be close to monsters. But many maps don't give much > choice - go through the exit, and monsters are behind door 2 spaces away. Sounds good for variety of magic. Sometimes the stat/protection boost spells seem a bit too bland. > Another change I'm thinking of is item destruction. The firebullet > doesn't destroy items, but the bolt does. I'm thinking that maybe bolts > shouldn't destroy items either - as I see it, bolts are maybe a 1' diameter > bolt that is 3' or so off the ground as it travels - as such, things on the > ground shouldn't be destroyed. Otherwise, especially I think at lower > levels, using bolts is a pretty big disadvantage because of all the > treasure it destroyes. I am in support of making improvements here. Evocation, for example, is not all that fun being limited to small bullet for several levels just to avoid burning/vaporizing/icing all your loot. Its hard to want to play a pyro, etc., simply because of that difficulty at low levels. Not having gotten those classes at high levels, I can't speak to the options up there, but I imagine it would still be a bummer to burn all that high level loot too. > I'm somewhat happy on damage - a couple spells will kill the orc - the > choice between bullet and bolt really depends on number of creatures - if > you have several nicely lined up, bolt is clearly better, but for > stragglers or individual monsters, bullet works pretty good. > > It may be that instead of defensive spell, giving them burning hands > (cone spell), but with very limited range would work. But then, I'm also > not sure how many spells we should/want to give out at first level - we > need to keep some new spells for players to get as they gain levels. From kbulgrien at worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 2 01:43:34 2008 From: kbulgrien at worldnet.att.net (Kevin R. Bulgrien) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 01:43:34 -0600 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200803020143.34651.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> > But even with that, I found that I was waiting for mana to regen a lot. > I suppose this isn't really any worse than fighters waiting for hp to > regen. Since by the very nature, these are range spells, the wizard should > ideally kill the creatures before they get next to him, and if they get > close, fall back, cast again, and so on. > I'm thinking some defensive spell may be in order, so if creatures do get > close, they get killed. OTOH, maybe that is part of being a mage - you > really don't want to be close to monsters. But many maps don't give much > choice - go through the exit, and monsters are behind door 2 spaces away. > > Another change I'm thinking of is item destruction. The firebullet > doesn't destroy items, but the bolt does. I'm thinking that maybe bolts > shouldn't destroy items either - as I see it, bolts are maybe a 1' diameter > bolt that is 3' or so off the ground as it travels - as such, things on the > ground shouldn't be destroyed. Otherwise, especially I think at lower > levels, using bolts is a pretty big disadvantage because of all the > treasure it destroyes. I'd probably add that some kind of movement blocking spell in each magic class seems like something to consider. I often am annoyed that I can't get something like earth wall if I'm the wrong kind of caster. That sort of difference is part of what makes it seem wrong to start talking about blocking the ability to learn new types of magic from what you start with. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Mar 2 13:31:34 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:31:34 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <200803020143.34651.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <200803020143.34651.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <200803022031.38208.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> > I'd probably add that some kind of movement blocking spell in each magic > class seems like something to consider. I often am annoyed that I can't > get something like earth wall if I'm the wrong kind of caster. That sort > of difference is part of what makes it seem wrong to start talking about > blocking the ability to learn new types of magic from what you start with. But then you start losing the class difference. I'd rather see things like closing doors (so you can rest some if monsters are too dumb to open them), or darkness (so they can't see you), or other things. Or something like Gaea's thorn wall (trees that hit opponents trying to cross). Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080302/a0c69040/attachment.pgp From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Mar 2 13:38:04 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:38:04 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200803022038.04922.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> > But even with that, I found that I was waiting for mana to regen a lot. > I suppose this isn't really any worse than fighters waiting for hp to > regen. Since by the very nature, these are range spells, the wizard should > ideally kill the creatures before they get next to him, and if they get > close, fall back, cast again, and so on. Yes, assuming fall back is possible. The harder issue is that sometimes when you exit the map monsters get on the exit too, or around, and when you enter they just kill you straight. > But there are also a couple key points here - one actually needs the > space available to fall back. In the newbie tower, once I started making > progress, I could basic remain beyond the monsters detect range and hit > them with spells (and once the kobolds are dead, gives an outer circle to > move in. But the difficult time was initial assault - after opening the > doors, kobolds come out eliminating much space to move about. Meaning the map is bad, maybe? :) Also, I'm not sure monsters obey the LOS rules, they often seem to spot the player behind wall. That should probably fixed so we can see the global effect of combat reduction (like: fire some bullets, flee around some corners, monster forgets you, you can regen sp). > Another change I made was to give the pyromancer a spell regen bonus - > this helps reduce the waiting some more. Rather than that being a force > (how I instituted it), doing it as a ring may make more sense - player can > upgrade it, but it also means that they don't really get a bonus if they > choose a wizard and play it as a fighter (at some point, they'd likely find > a ring more suitable for a fighter, and thus loose that sp regen bonus) What about small mana regeneration potions, like minor healing ones? And keep mana regeneration for "medium" level items? > I'm thinking some defensive spell may be in order, so if creatures do get > close, they get killed. OTOH, maybe that is part of being a mage - you > really don't want to be close to monsters. But many maps don't give much > choice - go through the exit, and monsters are behind door 2 spaces away. Combat rebalance could mean to rebalance many maps, something that could be interesting to do (with doors you can actually close, and so on), introduce things more interesting than "rush and bash". > Another change I'm thinking of is item destruction. The firebullet > doesn't destroy items, but the bolt does. I'm thinking that maybe bolts > shouldn't destroy items either - as I see it, bolts are maybe a 1' diameter > bolt that is 3' or so off the ground as it travels - as such, things on the > ground shouldn't be destroyed. Otherwise, especially I think at lower > levels, using bolts is a pretty big disadvantage because of all the > treasure it destroyes. *nods* > It may be that instead of defensive spell, giving them burning hands > (cone spell), but with very limited range would work. But then, I'm also > not sure how many spells we should/want to give out at first level - we > need to keep some new spells for players to get as they gain levels. IMO, it could be interesting to have classes really differentiated. One with offensive spells, one with mostly defensive ones, medium ground, and such. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080302/34c7d860/attachment.pgp From mwedel at sonic.net Tue Mar 4 01:32:31 2008 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:32:31 -0800 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <200803020136.25194.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <200803020136.25194.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <47CCFB0F.1040909@sonic.net> Kevin R. Bulgrien wrote: > Except perhaps that the savvy fighter finds ways to avoid hp going down, > and the caster cannot avoid spending mana or grace, so be careful of > that comparison, I think. What I really care about is not whether hp/sp/whatever goes down (because as mentioned, a clever fighter could perhaps prevent that), but rather total time it takes to gain a level. The real time it takes for a fighter and mage to gain a level should be the same. If it takes the mage 3 times longer, that needs to be fixed. If it does take the same time, and it means the mage is spending 25% of the time gaining back SP, that isn't much a problem, especially if the fighter is spending 25% of his time getting back HP. If a fighter has a tactic to defeat a monster and take no damage, that is no problem, as long as he can't do it a lot faster. For example, right now, I suspect a figther using a bow could probably clear out so low level dungeons and not take any damage. But I believe the bow is a slower way of killing things, so in the end, while it may be safer, he doesn't get a big advantage. > >> But there are also a couple key points here - one actually needs the >> space available to fall back. In the newbie tower, once I started making >> progress, I could basic remain beyond the monsters detect range and hit >> them with spells (and once the kobolds are dead, gives an outer circle to >> move in. But the difficult time was initial assault - after opening the >> doors, kobolds come out eliminating much space to move about. > > The monster smart movement seems a bit out of whack, but I can't be sure > what is going on with that. Maybe it is monster tweaking or map oddities > instead. It seems that some maps have all the mobs flooding the entrance, > so the level is a ghost town when you get past the front door. Not, I think, > what the map maker had in mind. Some mobs too easily detect the player > (through walls, non-line of sight, etc.). Others seem normal, which makes > me think it might be something other than the smart movement code. Different monsters also have different detection ranges. Some monsters can detect the player from pretty far away, so try and go to the exit. Some monsters have limited range, so unless player is nearby, they won't detect it. For example, in the newbie tower, it seems that the kobolds have a 7 or 8 space detection range. What this means is that if I play with a big (25x25) display, I can see the kobolds sitting there doing nothing, and blast them with a range attack. Now once they are damaged, they do take notice. What should probably be done is that when a monster is spawned (or original ones on the map for that matter) have that original location recorded. Monsters should basically hang out there unless they have clear line of sight view to player or take damage (there are certainly some spells which could have large spell effects and thus do damage) Likewise, if the player disappears or isn't around, the monster should have an affinity to head back to their home. > >> The generator limit I put in is quite important - without that, progress >> would be quite slow - getting through the front doors may have been >> difficult with those generators always being there. > > There are a few places where the generator limit breaks the maps, but so > far, the limit seems primarily reasonable, even for places like Raffle 1 > which still lets you gain an awful lot of XP before all the generators > disintegrate. > > I'll add that fixing the broken maps may be hard to get done. Even for > the ones I found, its not always easy to remember to work on the map when > you find the breakage, then for me, at least, it seems hard to decide > what a reasonable change is to fix it. I'm not necessarily saying to not > do adjustments like that, but it probably is good to keep in mind that > saying maps can be fixed, and getting them fixed are completely different > things. I think that getting them fixed is one of those things that does > not excite people, and thus is easily ignored. If not sure, I'd say just file a bug on the broken map, so at least it gets better recorded. But this is also somewhat a balancing act - not doing anything because it may break things probably isn't the right approach for most any changes that may get made. > >> Another change I made was to give the pyromancer a spell regen bonus - >> this helps reduce the waiting some more. Rather than that being a force >> (how I instituted it), doing it as a ring may make more sense - player can >> upgrade it, but it also means that they don't really get a bonus if they >> choose a wizard and play it as a fighter (at some point, they'd likely find >> a ring more suitable for a fighter, and thus loose that sp regen bonus) > > You talking about a ring granted at character creation? How would this ring > be different from any other ring of say magic+, regeneration+, stat+, etc? > It should not be taken back by the god that granted it if dropped, IMO. It would basically just be a ring magic+. The only difference being that the character starts with it (otherwise, it could be quite a while before a mage would get one). As for it being god given - unclear if it should be any different than the other initial items. I personally don't have much issue with all initial items being dropable - they should just have zero value. But then you get issues with things like special items - like spell crystals, etc, where someone could generate a bunch of new characters to get a nice selection of starting objects. >> Another change I'm thinking of is item destruction. The firebullet >> > doesn't destroy items, but the bolt does. I'm thinking that maybe bolts >> > shouldn't destroy items either - as I see it, bolts are maybe a 1' diameter >> > bolt that is 3' or so off the ground as it travels - as such, things on the >> > ground shouldn't be destroyed. Otherwise, especially I think at lower >> > levels, using bolts is a pretty big disadvantage because of all the >> > treasure it destroyes. > > I'd probably add that some kind of movement blocking spell in each magic > class seems like something to consider. I often am annoyed that I can't > get something like earth wall if I'm the wrong kind of caster. That sort > of difference is part of what makes it seem wrong to start talking about > blocking the ability to learn new types of magic from what you start with. One of the changes is that the evoker, summoner, and sorcerer classes are gone - instead it is all elemental mages (fire/water (ice)/earth/air (lightning)) Creating a low level wall spell is reasonable - each could have different effects (borrowing from AD&D a bit here) - wall of fire - doesn't block movement, but does block sight. One can walk through it, but would take damage (monster code may need to get refined so monsters try to avoid this). This is a limited duration spell, and duration and damage would go up as levels do. Wall of ice - blocks movement and sight. Does no damage if you sit by it, but does damage if you try to hack through it (but one can hack through it) - would be vulnerable to fire. Its hp and damage it does goes up by level, and will persist until destroyed. Wall of stone/earth - like earthwall now. Blocks line of sight. Doesn't do any damage to break through it, but has a lot more HP than the wall of ice, so lot harder to get through. Lasts until destroyed. Wall of force (air) - blocks everything, does not do damage, can not be destroyed, but has a relatively short duration From mwedel at sonic.net Tue Mar 4 01:44:50 2008 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:44:50 -0800 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <200803022038.04922.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <200803022038.04922.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <47CCFDF2.407@sonic.net> Nicolas Weeger wrote: >> But even with that, I found that I was waiting for mana to regen a lot. >> I suppose this isn't really any worse than fighters waiting for hp to >> regen. Since by the very nature, these are range spells, the wizard should >> ideally kill the creatures before they get next to him, and if they get >> close, fall back, cast again, and so on. > > Yes, assuming fall back is possible. The harder issue is that sometimes when > you exit the map monsters get on the exit too, or around, and when you enter > they just kill you straight. Yes - that can be a problem. Typically not so much- players move faster than monsters, so if they run back to the exit, the monsters will be some spaces behind, and give a small gap. Once you leave the map, monsters will likely just stand still. But per your other message, being able to close door behind you, etc, would be good. > >> But there are also a couple key points here - one actually needs the >> space available to fall back. In the newbie tower, once I started making >> progress, I could basic remain beyond the monsters detect range and hit >> them with spells (and once the kobolds are dead, gives an outer circle to >> move in. But the difficult time was initial assault - after opening the >> doors, kobolds come out eliminating much space to move about. > > Meaning the map is bad, maybe? :) > Also, I'm not sure monsters obey the LOS rules, they often seem to spot the > player behind wall. > That should probably fixed so we can see the global effect of combat reduction > (like: fire some bullets, flee around some corners, monster forgets you, you > can regen sp). Not positive if that is a good example - if a character is popping around the corner, firing a spell, and going back around, most monsters should be smart enough to either come to who is doing damage, or duck around a corner themselves to avoid being killed. > >> Another change I made was to give the pyromancer a spell regen bonus - >> this helps reduce the waiting some more. Rather than that being a force >> (how I instituted it), doing it as a ring may make more sense - player can >> upgrade it, but it also means that they don't really get a bonus if they >> choose a wizard and play it as a fighter (at some point, they'd likely find >> a ring more suitable for a fighter, and thus loose that sp regen bonus) > > What about small mana regeneration potions, like minor healing ones? > And keep mana regeneration for "medium" level items? The problem is you'd need a lot of those to be useful - and unless they are basically free, I'm not sure how many folks would buy them - it is a tradeoff of time vs money, but regen is generally fast enough that I'm not sure it is that much a bother (each cycle isn't that long) - the issue is more that there are a bunch of these cycles - this is also why you'd need a bunch of potions - in the newbie tower, it may be something like 50 rest periods, but each one is only 15-20 seconds. > >> I'm thinking some defensive spell may be in order, so if creatures do get >> close, they get killed. OTOH, maybe that is part of being a mage - you >> really don't want to be close to monsters. But many maps don't give much >> choice - go through the exit, and monsters are behind door 2 spaces away. > > Combat rebalance could mean to rebalance many maps, something that could be > interesting to do (with doors you can actually close, and so on), introduce > things more interesting than "rush and bash". I was thinking something like fire/frost/lightning/whatever shields. Those spells could do some damage to adjacent creatures, as well as provide protection to certain attacktypes. >> It may be that instead of defensive spell, giving them burning hands >> (cone spell), but with very limited range would work. But then, I'm also >> not sure how many spells we should/want to give out at first level - we >> need to keep some new spells for players to get as they gain levels. > > IMO, it could be interesting to have classes really differentiated. One with > offensive spells, one with mostly defensive ones, medium ground, and such. Sort of tried that with the evoker/sorcerer/pyromancer/summoner. They were quite different, but some were hard to play, not well balanced, etc. Another problem is that defenses spells is a tough way to gain exp. From leaf at real-time.com Thu Mar 6 23:34:36 2008 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:34:36 -0600 Subject: [crossfire] SVN password reset notice from SourceForge Message-ID: <47D0D3EC.8030009@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Announcement from SF website.. ( 2008-03-06 14:23:47 - SourceForge.net Web Site ) In support of improved security, all SourceForge.net user passwords have been expired and must be changed upon next login. CVS, Subversion and Shell users will need to login to the site to change their password before they will be able to access these services. http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2352&group_id=1#1181767103 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH0NPshHyvgBp+vH4RAuOyAJ9U3QBKv1rYUhnuT0SN4uKeIMvOxgCfcgBY wVwnSCzbXpumzE2iqqdJ5uI= =aK1G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Mar 8 04:48:42 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 11:48:42 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <47CCFB0F.1040909@sonic.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <200803020136.25194.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> <47CCFB0F.1040909@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> > What I really care about is not whether hp/sp/whatever goes down (because > as mentioned, a clever fighter could perhaps prevent that), but rather > total time it takes to gain a level. > > The real time it takes for a fighter and mage to gain a level should be > the same. If it takes the mage 3 times longer, that needs to be fixed. > > If it does take the same time, and it means the mage is spending 25% of > the time gaining back SP, that isn't much a problem, especially if the > fighter is spending 25% of his time getting back HP. Somehow, I don't like this definition of "fun"... But I admit I don't have many ideas of other definitions. > If a fighter has a tactic to defeat a monster and take no damage, that is > no problem, as long as he can't do it a lot faster. For example, right > now, I suspect a figther using a bow could probably clear out so low level > dungeons and not take any damage. But I believe the bow is a slower way of > killing things, so in the end, while it may be safer, he doesn't get a big > advantage. I'd rather see different classes meaning different tactics and possibly different time... > Likewise, if the player disappears or isn't around, the monster should > have an affinity to head back to their home. Monster IA should be much improved - just need to actually do that. > If not sure, I'd say just file a bug on the broken map, so at least it > gets better recorded. But this is also somewhat a balancing act - not > doing anything because it may break things probably isn't the right > approach for most any changes that may get made. Many maps suffer the "no story just trash monsters" symptom, so breaking those wouldn't be too bad. > Creating a low level wall spell is reasonable - each could have different > effects (borrowing from AD&D a bit here) - Could be interesting, indeed! Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080308/d56f0e41/attachment.pgp From juhaj at iki.fi Sat Mar 8 11:01:41 2008 From: juhaj at iki.fi (Juha =?utf-8?q?J=C3=A4ykk=C3=A4?=) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 19:01:41 +0200 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <47CCFB0F.1040909@sonic.net> <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <200803081901.47260.juhaj@iki.fi> > > If a fighter has a tactic to defeat a monster and take no damage, that > > is no problem, as long as he can't do it a lot faster. For example, > I'd rather see different classes meaning different tactics and possibly > different time... I tend to agree with Nicolas here. It is not a problem if it takes longer to gain a level as an X than as an Y. But that would need to be balanced by a high level X being more powerful than high level Y, otherwise I don't see many people playing X at all. OTOH, perhaps even that is not a problem: in many fantasy worlds, being a powerful wizard takes decades of study, whereas becoming a powerful fighter is much faster. It's also quite logical: a 60-year fighter won't be quite so agile and enduring as a 30-year old, whereas in a wizard, the age is not so much of an issue. But since we do not have character ages in the game, I'm not sure how applicaple this is. -Juha -- ----------------------------------------------- | Juha J?ykk?, juolja at utu.fi | | home: http://www.utu.fi/~juolja/ | ----------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080308/2b207d40/attachment.pgp From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Mar 10 00:09:07 2008 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:09:07 -0700 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <200803081901.47260.juhaj@iki.fi> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <47CCFB0F.1040909@sonic.net> <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <200803081901.47260.juhaj@iki.fi> Message-ID: <47D4C273.1030401@sonic.net> Juha J?ykk? wrote: >>> If a fighter has a tactic to defeat a monster and take no damage, that >>> is no problem, as long as he can't do it a lot faster. For example, >> I'd rather see different classes meaning different tactics and possibly >> different time... > > I tend to agree with Nicolas here. It is not a problem if it takes longer to > gain a level as an X than as an Y. But that would need to be balanced by a > high level X being more powerful than high level Y, otherwise I don't see > many people playing X at all. OTOH, perhaps even that is not a problem: in > many fantasy worlds, being a powerful wizard takes decades of study, whereas > becoming a powerful fighter is much faster. It's also quite logical: a > 60-year fighter won't be quite so agile and enduring as a 30-year old, > whereas in a wizard, the age is not so much of an issue. But since we do not > have character ages in the game, I'm not sure how applicaple this is. A lot of this is balancing act. My own thought is I'd much rather a level 50 fighter be same power as a level 50 priest which is same power as level 50 mage. I think balancing that is going to be easier than a level 50 fighter is same power as level 30 cleric which is equal to level 40 mage. And when comparing power, it means these characters are going into the same dungeons, fighting the same monsters, etc. If the mage is limited to dungeons not as tough, then clear that comparison doesn't hold There are lots of reasons I think have equal level is good. Some of the quick one is HP (which is tied to level) - becomes tough if some characters have 30% fewer HP than others to balance things. In theory, if the characters are going into the same dungeons, the equipment should be comparable, but there are still some things that limit it. I do agree that the classes should be more distinct. I also think this is to some extent also part of a visible reward system - from a first impression, if someone played a class than took 2 hours to gain their first level, and someone else played a class that took 20 minutes, the person who played for two hours would think 'boy, this class really sucks' because probably not directly obvious that they may be more power than that other character, but it is directly obvious it took a lot longer. From mwedel at sonic.net Mon Mar 10 00:25:38 2008 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:25:38 -0700 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <200803020136.25194.kbulgrien@worldnet.att.net> <47CCFB0F.1040909@sonic.net> <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <47D4C652.5040501@sonic.net> Nicolas Weeger wrote: >> What I really care about is not whether hp/sp/whatever goes down (because >> as mentioned, a clever fighter could perhaps prevent that), but rather >> total time it takes to gain a level. >> >> The real time it takes for a fighter and mage to gain a level should be >> the same. If it takes the mage 3 times longer, that needs to be fixed. >> >> If it does take the same time, and it means the mage is spending 25% of >> the time gaining back SP, that isn't much a problem, especially if the >> fighter is spending 25% of his time getting back HP. > > Somehow, I don't like this definition of "fun"... > But I admit I don't have many ideas of other definitions. I'm open to ideas to make this better. Certainly waiting around for HP/SP/Grace to come back isn't fun, yet at the same time, we can't just ramp up the regen speed, as that effectively makes characters more powerful (if a character gets all their HP back in 2 seconds, it means you just have to avoid damage for that long). While potions of heal/power/whatever work, one can't really give them out in infinite supply. Now my quick thought is that it is less annoying to player for 100 seconds, wait 10 seconds to get HP back, repeat vs player for 1000 seconds and wait 100 seconds. In the first case, maybe it means you do a quick chat with someone (irc channel or in came) or look at your items, etc, and buy the time you do that, you're ready to go. In the second case, seems like a real painful pause. But maybe that is just my play style, where I tend to multitask more. One thought I did have is maybe something like a 'rest' command. In this mode, the character sp/grace/hp regeneration goes way up. But at the same time, player is blind (eyes are closed - resting), so if monsters are about, this is really dangerous. Perhaps put in some sort of time penalty to come out of resting, so a monster may get in a couple good licks. And if you're damaged, you don't get a benefit of resting (so you can't rest if surrounded by wimpy monsters on the basis you get HP back faster than they are doing damage). This could actually add a use to all those chairs and 'normal' beds. You could still issue out of character commands (who, chat, maps) but any in game commands would end the rest cycle (apply, movement, etc). This could perhaps be pretty easily implemented by a basic force object (has blindness set, but also has high sp/hp/grace regen benefit). This basically fixes the problem - when it is boring to regain your hp is when it is safe to do so (in town, in a cleared out dungeon level, etc). This basically reduces that time. If you're actually about fighting creatures, you don't get any benefit. And if you are in a dangerous place, really risky to actually rest. This does sort of make the monks mediation ability pointless however, but maybe the monk can get improved in other ways (rebalancing the monk is probably a project all in itself). And all of this is also basically game mechanics. IIRC, crossfire game time is roughly 10 times faster than real time (in terms of day/night, ett). Don't know about you, but a 50 minute sit in a chair really doesn't do much good (OTOH, I can't eat a chicken leg in 1 second either), so maybe best to not try and think too much about the timings here. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Mon Mar 24 06:33:06 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:33:06 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] Mapper tool In-Reply-To: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <200803241233.09763.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Hello. I was wondering: would it be worth to make mapper generate one page per found monster archetype in ?a?. Currently there is one big page summing that up (monsters.html). Probably something like one page per archetype, with special monsters in a different section. So you'd have (random values): --------------- Bat hp: 6 wc: 1 found in maps: cave, ... Special variants: - Bat Boss: big cave - evil bat: demonic lair ------------- Opinions? Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080324/8f9e7083/attachment.pgp From leaf at real-time.com Mon Mar 24 12:37:39 2008 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:37:39 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Mapper tool In-Reply-To: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <47E7E6E3.7090601@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 | I'd like some opinions/suggestions on the "mapper" tool for Crossfire (found | in server/utils/mapper.c). | | Current aim of the tool: | * provide a map reference for map makers, to know what exists, show links | between maps, point to areas where there aren't many maps, ... I have also found it very useful for reporting missing archetypes. (Yes, there are still 2 missing in /branch maps; I will fix that in the next day or two) | * help find inconsistencies in maps (same "slaying" between maps, invalid | tiling, unreachable maps, invalid exits ...) Finding invalid exits has been a huge time saver for me. Thank you for this functionality! Feature request: On the world map, have some way to display elevation. The ultimate (dream?) of course would be to have a elevation and depth contour line map. Examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contour_line -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH5+bjhHyvgBp+vH4RAhF8AKC9BMfTUYE6aayxUKEVc6hfolHq/wCfd2k4 Ey35MI6lRorm8tqMJ/JJjwQ= =yf7L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leaf at real-time.com Mon Mar 24 12:52:10 2008 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:52:10 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Mapper tool In-Reply-To: <200803241233.09763.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <200803241233.09763.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <47E7EA4A.2030302@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 | I was wondering: would it be worth to make mapper generate one page per found | monster archetype in ?a?. What is the last word in the sentence? It's not displaying for me for some reason. | Currently there is one big page summing that up (monsters.html). | | Probably something like one page per archetype, with special monsters in a | different section. | | So you'd have (random values): | --------------- | Bat | hp: 6 | wc: 1 | found in maps: cave, ... | Special variants: | - Bat Boss: big cave | - evil bat: demonic lair | ------------- So, using the example above.. There would be the name "Bat" on a map summary page. This would be a hyperlink to a standalone page display the complete stats of the Bat? I presume the user would then have to use the browser back button to get back to the map summary? Assuming the summary above holds true; Just some ideas.. What about using a popup window to display the monster information? What about using an iframe to display the monster information? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH5+pKhHyvgBp+vH4RArnOAKCyIj+76LaCCKsWdNQwO0YanJaWBQCeND8I 7VbAfCCmtKQnqw32tLPJcfQ= =xCEe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Mon Mar 24 15:03:43 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:03:43 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] Mapper tool In-Reply-To: <47E7EA4A.2030302@real-time.com> References: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <200803241233.09763.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <47E7EA4A.2030302@real-time.com> Message-ID: <200803242103.47698.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Le lundi 24 mars 2008, Rick Tanner a ?crit?: > | I was wondering: would it be worth to make mapper generate one page > > per found > > | monster archetype in ?a?. > > What is the last word in the sentence? > It's not displaying for me for some reason. Sorry, it should read "map", fingers slipped on other keys :) > So, using the example above.. > > There would be the name "Bat" on a map summary page. This would be a > hyperlink to a standalone page display the complete stats of the Bat? That would be the idea. > I presume the user would then have to use the browser back button to get > back to the map summary? > > Assuming the summary above holds true; Just some ideas.. > > What about using a popup window to display the monster information? > > What about using an iframe to display the monster information? Remember mapper uses a template system to display information :) So basic version would probably be link to another page, but you could just redefine / modify the template to use iframe or popup. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080324/7ba7ec77/attachment.pgp From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Mar 27 17:34:41 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:34:41 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] Mapper tool In-Reply-To: <47E7E6E3.7090601@real-time.com> References: <200802132345.54364.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <47E7E6E3.7090601@real-time.com> Message-ID: <200803272334.45312.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> > Feature request: > > On the world map, have some way to display elevation. > > The ultimate (dream?) of course would be to have a elevation and depth > contour line map. > > Examples: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contour_line Now generates "world_elevation.png". Not exactly a contour line, I guess, but should give good info already? Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080327/ddbf98bd/attachment.pgp From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Mar 29 17:43:24 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:43:24 +0100 Subject: [crossfire] ob_methods / ob_types Message-ID: <200803292343.29054.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Hello. I'd like to move all the ob_methods and ob_types functions, except init_ob_types(), to common directory. And I'd like to add 'ob_trigger', to be used into common/button.c trigger_connected(), once again to remove stubs. This way, we'll be able to remove the need to define move_firewall / move_teleporter / ... as stubs in many things. Opinions? Comments? Oh, and I do think this is getting real close to C++... Maybe it isn't required to reinvent the wheel all the time? :) Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080329/af3af56d/attachment.pgp From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Mon Mar 31 15:51:24 2008 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:51:24 +0200 Subject: [crossfire] Spell rebalancing notes/thoughts In-Reply-To: <47D4C652.5040501@sonic.net> References: <47C51A06.1000203@sonic.net> <200803081148.46166.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <47D4C652.5040501@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200803312251.28451.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> > > Somehow, I don't like this definition of "fun"... > > But I admit I don't have many ideas of other definitions. > > I'm open to ideas to make this better. Certainly waiting around for > HP/SP/Grace to come back isn't fun, yet at the same time, we can't just > ramp up the regen speed, as that effectively makes characters more powerful > (if a character gets all their HP back in 2 seconds, it means you just have > to avoid damage for that long). What about making other fun activities the player could do while waiting for sp/hp/gr to regenerate? Like, going to drink in a bar and falling in love with someone. Or trying to decipher a coded message. Or getting around trying to be elected to mayor? > While potions of heal/power/whatever work, one can't really give them out > in infinite supply. What about "forcing" the player to accumulate some before they go in dungeons? What about focusing on non-combat things too? Enigms and such? Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'al?atoire !] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.metalforge.org/pipermail/crossfire/attachments/20080331/a7ab0246/attachment.pgp