From davidnicholashurst at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 07:54:17 2014 From: davidnicholashurst at gmail.com (David Hurst) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 22:54:17 +1000 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki Changes Message-ID: Hi Crossfire, I have had an itch to tidy up the Wiki pages and today put my ideas into effect. I wanted to make the pages more clearly separated to (I hope) make it easier to find information. A lot of pages were dated around 2008 and appear to have drifted out of date or out of position. The changes I made weren't focused on removing any content but rather moving it, splitting it, or merging it to fit the new structure. The new structure as explained on the Crossfire Wiki start page is: *The Sworn book of Scorn *This section is dedicated to the mechanics and implementation of crossfire as a game. Help/Support This section focuses on guides and information that will assist in installing and running Crossfire servers and clients . Community This section provides useful links for connecting with other crossfire fans. Development This section is the communal edit/scratchpad to document and kick off new ideas, and in-game content. Everyone is welcome to contribute. Please remember that while the wiki is useful for brainstorming, archiving, and listing new ideas, always consult the mailing list before implementing any significant changes to the game. For more detailed information on this structure you can visit the Crossfire Wiki:style guide I also drew on the Google analytic report to try and identify which areas of the wiki were most heavily getting viewed. At present most visitors were apparently seeking assistance in installing crossfire, particularly the server, or were leaving after reading the FAQ. I suspect the FAQ is a little over due for review but didn't spend much time on it. It is currently very long and overlaps with a lot of content elsewhere on both the crossfire website and the wiki. I welcome feedback on whether you like this new structure and any further changes that you think would be valuable. In particular I would love some help in adding various game mechanics to the Sworn book of Scorn. Please feel free to come talk Wiki with me in the IRC channel. Regards, Saru -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Sep 12 17:10:14 2014 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 00:10:14 +0200 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki Changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201409130010.20184.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Hello. Thanks for all the changes :) I think the global structure is nice, and the welcome page is pretty clear on what you'll find on the wiki! About the content, IMO, the wiki should be a developer and map-maker reference, much more than for players. Players information is on the official website (though it may require some update, but that's another topic), and it should probably be there because that's the page you'll see first when you discover the game. Having whole player manuals there is great. On the other hand, anything we can think of about story background, game lore, and such, should be on the wiki, even if it may be spoilers - because we need references at some point. So we can avoid breaking stuff randomly, or we can know the intended effect. For instance, if all intended Pupland stuff was on the wiki, we could have finished all those maps... Also, there should be documentation on pictures set, intended rules (top-down perspective, light, and such). Those are in the sources, but still. In any case, please keep the good work :) Regards Nicolas Le jeudi 11 septembre 2014 14:54:17, David Hurst a ?crit : > Hi Crossfire, > > I have had an itch to tidy up the Wiki pages and today put my ideas into > effect. I wanted to make the pages more clearly separated to (I hope) make > it easier to find information. A lot of pages were dated around 2008 and > appear to have drifted out of date or out of position. The changes I made > weren't focused on removing any content but rather moving it, splitting it, > or merging it to fit the new structure. > > The new structure as explained on the Crossfire Wiki start page > is: > > g?id=start&cache=cache>*The Sworn book of Scorn > *This section is dedicated > to the mechanics and implementation of crossfire as a game. > id=start&cache=cache> Help/Support > This section > focuses on guides and information that will assist in installing and > running Crossfire servers and > clients . > tart&cache=cache> Community > This section provides > useful links for connecting with other crossfire fans. > 11.png?id=start&cache=cache> Development > This section is the > communal edit/scratchpad to document and kick off new ideas, and in-game > content. Everyone is welcome to contribute. Please remember that while the > wiki is useful for brainstorming, archiving, and listing new ideas, always > consult the mailing list > before > implementing any significant changes to the game. > > For more detailed information on this structure you can visit the Crossfire > Wiki:style guide > > I also drew on the Google analytic report to try and identify which areas > of the wiki were most heavily getting viewed. At present most visitors were > apparently seeking assistance in installing crossfire, particularly the > server, or were leaving after reading the FAQ. I suspect the FAQ is a > little over due for review but didn't spend much time on it. It is > currently very long and overlaps with a lot of content elsewhere on both > the crossfire website and the wiki. > > I welcome feedback on whether you like this new structure and any further > changes that you think would be valuable. In particular I would love some > help in adding various game mechanics to the Sworn book of Scorn. Please > feel free to come talk Wiki with me in the IRC channel. > > Regards, > > Saru -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From leaf at real-time.com Fri Sep 12 18:43:52 2014 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 18:43:52 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki Changes In-Reply-To: <201409130010.20184.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> References: <201409130010.20184.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Message-ID: <54138538.1010301@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 9/12/14 5:10 PM, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > > Players information is on the official website (though it may > require some update, but that's another topic), and it should > probably be there because that's the page you'll see first when you > discover the game. Having whole player manuals there is great. My hope was the wiki would be the draft or living copy of such content while the website would hold or present the "nice and pretty" version. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFUE4UwhHyvgBp+vH4RAuGAAKDfw7G+QDamPU/3cod+WRtvajI2bgCg6Yld Pa10GadXt5mqwcGHQU7t61k= =YuS0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tolga.dalman at googlemail.com Sat Sep 13 02:01:03 2014 From: tolga.dalman at googlemail.com (Tolga Dalman) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 09:01:03 +0200 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki Changes In-Reply-To: <54138538.1010301@real-time.com> References: <201409130010.20184.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <54138538.1010301@real-time.com> Message-ID: <5413EBAF.1000408@project-psi.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thanks for the great work! On 09/13/2014 01:43 AM, Rick Tanner wrote: > On 9/12/14 5:10 PM, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > >> Players information is on the official website (though it may require >> some update, but that's another topic), and it should probably be there >> because that's the page you'll see first when you discover the game. >> Having whole player manuals there is great. > > My hope was the wiki would be the draft or living copy of such content > while the website would hold or present the "nice and pretty" version. As it is, the wiki is indeed a good developer's reference and should be extended. However, I think it would be also nice to have the official manual in the same wiki. Wouldn't it become too cumbersome to maintain two documentation sources in the long run ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJUE+uvAAoJEATLYSm2cxP94q0H/jgYUBM9AZieqOCugteqpv4V OnZZb1hx/bvCu3Sp/zT7z5ZHcGf+qUhihMzNnNmbWHFO8zbhAwLBf+mXWzizGo3m xP+GXzPTnEnrYyaZgQrXUDmtQib4a57+aMK9FNZT3RxYXmirpKh0rtSnMoQOlAmi UeNKlreTE4wcbdSXl2G96s8dCAWqbUP/c/JOV5SfudsZT56W62Hpml8booJ311fL 1S1FFOfYIMrpfuK7EA0jAFQdoCZhZrTxflxwVu8Tq/cBXfHGcBHhOuL7p/FzuWdH 1sqZ4+UPlOBzWZCdw6K1LWYpMr7b7fohOgaswCMTSVooU7Pcr150LYfUKo6SxSQ= =5Ann -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From davidnicholashurst at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 06:22:40 2014 From: davidnicholashurst at gmail.com (David Hurst) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 21:22:40 +1000 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki Changes In-Reply-To: <5413EBAF.1000408@project-psi.org> References: <201409130010.20184.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <54138538.1010301@real-time.com> <5413EBAF.1000408@project-psi.org> Message-ID: Hi, I'm very glad to see an overall positive response to these changes and it does motivate me to continue to improve this resource. I can now say that I know the content on the wiki backwards as a result but If you were to ask me how far progressed the wiki pages are as a project, i'd probably be saying about 15% :). Nicolas, If I understand correctly I think what you are describing is less about the wiki itself than the joins or connections between the wiki and our current web presence sites (crossfire.real-time.com, crossfireatlas). There are some general design approaches to the website that I have suggested regarding better or more seamless integration between these pages but i'll leave that to Leaf to look at when he has the time. In the long run I think the majority of content should be moved to the wiki pages. Specific scripted pages like the metaserver2 and atlas present a challenge but they don't need to be changed anytime soon. There are literally thousands of game wiki's and hundreds of RPG wiki's out, many of which have proven that wikis work not only for guidance information but for game mechanics documentation. Why? - Wikis can actually provide very nice and consistent look and feel with little effort and can be updated without major work. Wiki's are not limited to the current look and feel we are using, take for example this wiki: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dota_2_Wiki. - Often contributors may not have any skills/inclination to change code or build maps but may be happy to keep wiki pages up to date (such as me). - It is also much easier to design the structure of the website by using a wiki system (or any document management system) to 'chip away' at documentation over time. - Changes are much easier to monitor (and revert ;)) by a group of contributors rather than leaving all the work to a web-admin. Regarding the wiki as a development documentation point, I don't really feel confident in making many changes to these pages as I wouldn't say i'm a contributor in that sense.That said I am in two minds about the development section on our wiki. On the one hand it is a very easy way to jot down ideas and thoughts and have them accessible in general. On the other it can be a maze for anyone that isn't involved or new. Possibly providing a little more structure could be all that is required? I would suggest though one thing that I do feel strongly about that might help. At present we appear to be using this table as a TODO list which is clunky to make changes to at best. Can I suggest we consider a system such as http://flyspray.org/ to help keep track of work? I understand the main focus of flyspray is as a bug tracker, which Sourceforge does an excellent job of, however I think Sourceforge's 'feature requests/current projects' system feels more suited to external recommendations than an internal TODO. Regards, Saru On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Tolga Dalman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Thanks for the great work! > > On 09/13/2014 01:43 AM, Rick Tanner wrote: > > On 9/12/14 5:10 PM, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > > > >> Players information is on the official website (though it may require > >> some update, but that's another topic), and it should probably be there > >> because that's the page you'll see first when you discover the game. > >> Having whole player manuals there is great. > > > > My hope was the wiki would be the draft or living copy of such content > > while the website would hold or present the "nice and pretty" version. > > As it is, the wiki is indeed a good developer's reference and should be > extended. However, I think it would be also nice to have the official > manual > in the same wiki. > Wouldn't it become too cumbersome to maintain two documentation sources in > the > long run ? > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2 > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJUE+uvAAoJEATLYSm2cxP94q0H/jgYUBM9AZieqOCugteqpv4V > OnZZb1hx/bvCu3Sp/zT7z5ZHcGf+qUhihMzNnNmbWHFO8zbhAwLBf+mXWzizGo3m > xP+GXzPTnEnrYyaZgQrXUDmtQib4a57+aMK9FNZT3RxYXmirpKh0rtSnMoQOlAmi > UeNKlreTE4wcbdSXl2G96s8dCAWqbUP/c/JOV5SfudsZT56W62Hpml8booJ311fL > 1S1FFOfYIMrpfuK7EA0jAFQdoCZhZrTxflxwVu8Tq/cBXfHGcBHhOuL7p/FzuWdH > 1sqZ4+UPlOBzWZCdw6K1LWYpMr7b7fohOgaswCMTSVooU7Pcr150LYfUKo6SxSQ= > =5Ann > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire at metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Sep 20 08:37:09 2014 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 15:37:09 +0200 Subject: [crossfire] Re: Wiki Changes In-Reply-To: References: <5413EBAF.1000408@project-psi.org> Message-ID: <201409201537.15123.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> Hello. Sorry for the delay :) Yes, I'm describing the difference between the wiki and the website. I think it's nice to have a manual on the site, maybe written through the wiki, but still "stable". Something we could distribute with the game, if we wanted :) As for the TODO list, please, don't mistake the tool and the goal - I don't feel like using Yet Another Better Tool Than The Ones Before (tm), the list is just there for people to use if they want. The wiki isn't that great? Then use SF's bugtracker, or scratch the table on the wiki and put stuff randomly, whatever. Just my 2 cents of course :) Kind regards Nicolas Le samedi 13 septembre 2014 13:22:40, David Hurst a ?crit : > Hi, > > I'm very glad to see an overall positive response to these changes and it > does motivate me to continue to improve this resource. I can now say that I > know the content on the wiki backwards as a result but If you were to ask > me how far progressed the wiki pages are as a project, i'd probably be > saying about 15% :). > > Nicolas, If I understand correctly I think what you are describing is less > about the wiki itself than the joins or connections between the wiki and > our current web presence sites (crossfire.real-time.com, crossfireatlas). > There are some general design approaches to the website that I have > suggested regarding better or more seamless integration between these pages > but i'll leave that to Leaf to look at when he has the time. In the long > run I think the majority of content should be moved to the wiki pages. > Specific scripted pages like the metaserver2 and atlas present a challenge > but they don't need to be changed anytime soon. There are literally > thousands of game wiki's and hundreds of RPG wiki's out, many of which have > proven that wikis work not only for guidance information but for game > mechanics documentation. Why? > > - Wikis can actually provide very nice and consistent look and feel with > little effort and can be updated without major work. Wiki's are not > limited to the current look and feel we are using, take for example this > wiki: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dota_2_Wiki. > - Often contributors may not have any skills/inclination to change code > or build maps but may be happy to keep wiki pages up to date (such as > me). - It is also much easier to design the structure of the website by > using a wiki system (or any document management system) to 'chip away' at > documentation over time. > - Changes are much easier to monitor (and revert ;)) by a group of > contributors rather than leaving all the work to a web-admin. > > Regarding the wiki as a development documentation point, I don't really > feel confident in making many changes to these pages as I wouldn't say i'm > a contributor in that sense.That said I am in two minds about the > development section on our wiki. On the one hand it is a very easy way to > jot down ideas and thoughts and have them accessible in general. On the > other it can be a maze for anyone that isn't involved or new. Possibly > providing a little more structure could be all that is required? I would > suggest though one thing that I do feel strongly about that might help. At > present we appear to be using this table > as a TODO list which is > clunky to make changes to at best. Can I suggest we consider a system such > as http://flyspray.org/ to help keep track of work? I understand the main > focus of flyspray is as a bug tracker, which Sourceforge does an excellent > job of, however I think Sourceforge's 'feature requests/current projects' > system feels more suited to external recommendations than an internal TODO. > > Regards, > > Saru > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Tolga Dalman > > wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Thanks for the great work! > > > > On 09/13/2014 01:43 AM, Rick Tanner wrote: > > > On 9/12/14 5:10 PM, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > > >> Players information is on the official website (though it may require > > >> some update, but that's another topic), and it should probably be > > >> there because that's the page you'll see first when you discover the > > >> game. Having whole player manuals there is great. > > > > > > My hope was the wiki would be the draft or living copy of such content > > > while the website would hold or present the "nice and pretty" version. > > > > As it is, the wiki is indeed a good developer's reference and should be > > extended. However, I think it would be also nice to have the official > > manual > > in the same wiki. > > Wouldn't it become too cumbersome to maintain two documentation sources > > in the > > long run ? > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v2 > > > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJUE+uvAAoJEATLYSm2cxP94q0H/jgYUBM9AZieqOCugteqpv4V > > OnZZb1hx/bvCu3Sp/zT7z5ZHcGf+qUhihMzNnNmbWHFO8zbhAwLBf+mXWzizGo3m > > xP+GXzPTnEnrYyaZgQrXUDmtQib4a57+aMK9FNZT3RxYXmirpKh0rtSnMoQOlAmi > > UeNKlreTE4wcbdSXl2G96s8dCAWqbUP/c/JOV5SfudsZT56W62Hpml8booJ311fL > > 1S1FFOfYIMrpfuK7EA0jAFQdoCZhZrTxflxwVu8Tq/cBXfHGcBHhOuL7p/FzuWdH > > 1sqZ4+UPlOBzWZCdw6K1LWYpMr7b7fohOgaswCMTSVooU7Pcr150LYfUKo6SxSQ= > > =5Ann > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire at metalforge.org > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From leaf at real-time.com Sat Sep 20 14:01:33 2014 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:01:33 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Wiki Changes In-Reply-To: <5413EBAF.1000408@project-psi.org> References: <201409130010.20184.nicolas.weeger@laposte.net> <54138538.1010301@real-time.com> <5413EBAF.1000408@project-psi.org> Message-ID: <541DCF0D.2030808@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 9/13/14 2:01 AM, Tolga Dalman wrote: > > Wouldn't it become too cumbersome to maintain two documentation > sources in the long run ? It might or could, but if/when that happens then the website page would just be a direct link to the wiki page. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFUHc7+hHyvgBp+vH4RAuwUAKDmVpoO/5obEj5XXbS5Ux2H8i3hzQCgh5/o pqfYnVAhVGSY8DwXV7SCwzI= =6Hy+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----