From leaf at real-time.com Fri Jun 16 12:37:15 2023 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:37:15 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? Message-ID: Hello, While working on numerous maps, I have noticed that some map authors (and/or map editors) included a contact email address in the map header. Nearly all of these addresses are no longer valid. For instance, some are University (College) addresses. And, many are from people I have not "seen" online in many years. Given the different methods of communication we now have available - IRC, Discord, and the mailing list -- those are the preferred ways to reach out to a map author for questions, comments, discussion, etc. instead of direct emails to the author. Does anyone have any concerns in regards to removing the email addresses from the map headers? If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the maps to remove this content. To give this discussion some time, I would look at starting to make this change in 2023-July. Thank you. From mwedel at sonic.net Fri Jun 16 19:36:59 2023 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:36:59 -0700 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6266b1c8-39da-d047-5a70-73f3c9c78f40@sonic.net> On 6/16/23 10:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > > Hello, > > While working on numerous maps, I have noticed that some map authors (and/or map editors) included a contact email address in the map header. > > Nearly all of these addresses are no longer valid. For instance, some are University (College) addresses. And, many are from people I have not "seen" online in many years. > > Given the different methods of communication we now have available - IRC, Discord, and the mailing list -- those are the preferred ways to reach out to a map author for questions, comments, discussion, etc. instead of direct emails to the author. > > Does anyone have any concerns in regards to removing the email addresses from the map headers? > > If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the maps to remove this content. To give this discussion some time, I would look at starting to make this change in 2023-July. I was thinking when I just saw the subject 'how many of those e-mail addresses still work, and even if they do, is anyone looking at them'. I think that with the fact everything is in publicly accessible source control, people can always use that to see the original creator (or at least importer) of a given map, as well as who has modified it recently. That is probably just as useful, if not more useful, than the info in the map header. Even if someone does want the old information, they can always look for it in the source history (look at the old version when it still exists). From subscriptions at eracc.org Fri Jun 16 21:08:25 2023 From: subscriptions at eracc.org (Poof) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 18:08:25 -0800 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <6266b1c8-39da-d047-5a70-73f3c9c78f40@sonic.net> References: <6266b1c8-39da-d047-5a70-73f3c9c78f40@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20230616180825.3daa1778@devuan-nuc.local> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:36:59 -0700 Mark Wedel wrote: > On 6/16/23 10:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > While working on numerous maps, I have noticed that some map > > authors (and/or map editors) included a contact email address in > > the map header. > > > > Nearly all of these addresses are no longer valid. For instance, > > some are University (College) addresses. And, many are from people > > I have not "seen" online in many years. > > > > Given the different methods of communication we now have available > > - IRC, Discord, and the mailing list -- those are the preferred > > ways to reach out to a map author for questions, comments, > > discussion, etc. instead of direct emails to the author. > > > > Does anyone have any concerns in regards to removing the email > > addresses from the map headers? > > > > If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating > > all the maps to remove this content. To give this discussion some > > time, I would look at starting to make this change in 2023-July. > > I was thinking when I just saw the subject 'how many of those > e-mail addresses still work, and even if they do, is anyone looking > at them'. > > I think that with the fact everything is in publicly accessible > source control, people can always use that to see the original > creator (or at least importer) of a given map, as well as who has > modified it recently. That is probably just as useful, if not more > useful, than the info in the map header. > > Even if someone does want the old information, they can always look > for it in the source history (look at the old version when it still > exists). It doesn't matter to me. That said, my e-mail address should still be valid if it is in any of the content I made. Gene -- Mailing List Subscriptions - subscriptions at eracc.org From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sat Jun 17 03:32:56 2023 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 04:32:56 -0400 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/16/23 13:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the > maps to remove this content. leave it - it is a historical document -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sat Jun 17 19:04:29 2023 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:04:29 -0400 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <6266b1c8-39da-d047-5a70-73f3c9c78f40@sonic.net> References: <6266b1c8-39da-d047-5a70-73f3c9c78f40@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20230618000429.GA21809@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 05:36:59PM -0700, Mark Wedel wrote: > On 6/16/23 10:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > > > >Hello, > > > >While working on numerous maps, I have noticed that some map authors (and/or map editors) included a contact email address in the map header. > > > >Nearly all of these addresses are no longer valid. For instance, some are University (College) addresses. And, many are from people I have not "seen" online in many years. > > > >Given the different methods of communication we now have available - IRC, Discord, and the mailing list -- those are the preferred ways to reach out to a map author for questions, comments, discussion, etc. instead of direct emails to the author. > > > >Does anyone have any concerns in regards to removing the email addresses from the map headers? > > > >If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the maps to remove this content. To give this discussion some time, I would look at starting to make this change in 2023-July. > > I was thinking when I just saw the subject 'how many of those e-mail addresses still work, and even if they do, is anyone looking at them'. > > I think that with the fact everything is in publicly accessible source control, people can always use that to see the original creator (or at least importer) of a given map, as well as who has modified it recently. That is probably just as useful, if not more useful, than the info in the map header. > > Even if someone does want the old information, they can always look for it in the source history (look at the old version when it still exists). > Those few bytes aren't BOTHERING ANYONE and DOING NOTHING. Leave them alone - they are historical artifacts of people and times that have past. What is the problem that they are bothering anyone? Is this a social disease? > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire at metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > IRC: http://crossfire.real-time.com/irc/index.html > Discord: http://crossfire.real-time.com/discord/index.html > Project Site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossfire/ > Wiki: http://wiki.cross-fire.org/ > Website: http://crossfire.real-time.com -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sat Jun 17 19:06:01 2023 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:06:01 -0400 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <20230616180825.3daa1778@devuan-nuc.local> References: <6266b1c8-39da-d047-5a70-73f3c9c78f40@sonic.net> <20230616180825.3daa1778@devuan-nuc.local> Message-ID: <20230618000601.GB21809@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 06:08:25PM -0800, Poof wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:36:59 -0700 > Mark Wedel wrote: > > > On 6/16/23 10:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > While working on numerous maps, I have noticed that some map > > > authors (and/or map editors) included a contact email address in > > > the map header. > > > > > > Nearly all of these addresses are no longer valid. For instance, > > > some are University (College) addresses. And, many are from people > > > I have not "seen" online in many years. > > > > > > Given the different methods of communication we now have available > > > - IRC, Discord, and the mailing list -- those are the preferred > > > ways to reach out to a map author for questions, comments, > > > discussion, etc. instead of direct emails to the author. > > > > > > Does anyone have any concerns in regards to removing the email > > > addresses from the map headers? > > > > > > If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating > > > all the maps to remove this content. To give this discussion some > > > time, I would look at starting to make this change in 2023-July. > > > > I was thinking when I just saw the subject 'how many of those > > e-mail addresses still work, and even if they do, is anyone looking > > at them'. > > > > I think that with the fact everything is in publicly accessible > > source control, people can always use that to see the original > > creator (or at least importer) of a given map, as well as who has > > modified it recently. That is probably just as useful, if not more > > useful, than the info in the map header. > > > > Even if someone does want the old information, they can always look > > for it in the source history (look at the old version when it still > > exists). > > It doesn't matter to me. That said, my e-mail address should still be valid if it is in any of the content I made. > > Gene Spend time cleaning usenet of all those old posts. Remove the enitre past. From leaf at real-time.com Sun Jun 18 11:50:27 2023 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:50:27 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> On 6/17/23 3:32 AM, Ruben Safir wrote: > On 6/16/23 13:37, Rick Tanner wrote: >> If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the >> maps to remove this content. > > > leave it - it is a historical document I disagree. The entire code base, maps, and graphics are not historical documents. They are a snapshot of what works and is required for the game to work. As software packages are deprecated (Bug #946, SDL1.2 vs SDL2.x) or a better way is implemented (i.e., updated/improved graphics, broken gate in a map, reformatted for readability, and so on) the code changes. And continues on. From subscriptions at eracc.org Sun Jun 18 12:18:17 2023 From: subscriptions at eracc.org (Poof) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:18:17 -0800 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> References: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20230618091817.1ff2517a@devuan-nuc.local> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:50:27 -0500 Rick Tanner wrote: > On 6/17/23 3:32 AM, Ruben Safir wrote: > > On 6/16/23 13:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > >> If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating > >> all the maps to remove this content. > > > > > > leave it - it is a historical document > > I disagree. > > The entire code base, maps, and graphics are not historical documents. > > They are a snapshot of what works and is required for the game to > work. > > As software packages are deprecated (Bug #946, SDL1.2 vs SDL2.x) or a > better way is implemented (i.e., updated/improved graphics, broken > gate in a map, reformatted for readability, and so on) the code > changes. And continues on. Would not the data that is removed still be in archived versions of the code tree? I think archived data are the historical documents here. Gene -- Mailing List Subscriptions - subscriptions at eracc.org From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sun Jun 18 14:00:13 2023 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 15:00:13 -0400 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> References: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20230618190013.GA5917@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 11:50:27AM -0500, Rick Tanner wrote: > On 6/17/23 3:32 AM, Ruben Safir wrote: > >On 6/16/23 13:37, Rick Tanner wrote: > >>If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the > >>maps to remove this content. > > > > > >leave it - it is a historical document > > I disagree. > > The entire code base, maps, and graphics are not historical documents. > You can disagree but they are still historical documents and the signatures on them by departed developers is the very history of crissfire, which itself has significant historical import. Then there is copyright consideration. Software is speach. > They are a snapshot of what works and is required for the game to work. Not annotations in the code. They are just annotations. > > As software packages are deprecated (Bug #946, SDL1.2 vs SDL2.x) or > a better way is implemented (i.e., updated/improved graphics, broken > gate in a map, reformatted for readability, and so on) the code > changes. And continues on. > That has nothing to do with the opening credits which are in the comments of the code. Those signatures are non-functional annoations. If you dump the entire code segmment, then obviously it is being dumped, allong with the comments and notices. Otherwise they serve as copyrigt notices and are a historical record of campers from priovus generations who left their mark. Reuvain > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire at metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > IRC: http://crossfire.real-time.com/irc/index.html > Discord: http://crossfire.real-time.com/discord/index.html > Project Site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossfire/ > Wiki: http://wiki.cross-fire.org/ > Website: http://crossfire.real-time.com -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 From nkipps at gmail.com Sun Jun 18 17:55:22 2023 From: nkipps at gmail.com (Nathaniel Kipps) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:55:22 -0400 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Personally, I wouldn't want to be in the position of trying to determine whether some contact method is valid or not, so I would not want to be directly involved in such a project. I suggest first implementing a policy ("No contact info in future map headers, only internet handles"), then confirm if you want to retroactively apply such a policy to existing mapfiles. --DraugTheWhopper On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 1:37 PM Rick Tanner wrote: > > Hello, > > While working on numerous maps, I have noticed that some map authors > (and/or map editors) included a contact email address in the map header. > > Nearly all of these addresses are no longer valid. For instance, some > are University (College) addresses. And, many are from people I have not > "seen" online in many years. > > Given the different methods of communication we now have available - > IRC, Discord, and the mailing list -- those are the preferred ways to > reach out to a map author for questions, comments, discussion, etc. > instead of direct emails to the author. > > Does anyone have any concerns in regards to removing the email addresses > from the map headers? > > If there are no issues or concerns, I will take care of updating all the > maps to remove this content. To give this discussion some time, I would > look at starting to make this change in 2023-July. > > Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire at metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > IRC: http://crossfire.real-time.com/irc/index.html > Discord: http://crossfire.real-time.com/discord/index.html > Project Site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossfire/ > Wiki: http://wiki.cross-fire.org/ > Website: http://crossfire.real-time.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leaf at real-time.com Sun Jun 18 21:35:18 2023 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <20230618190013.GA5917@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> <20230618190013.GA5917@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <8dce1e2f-8332-cf76-64d0-fbf269fa1ef7@real-time.com> On 6/18/23 2:00 PM, Ruben Safir wrote: > > You can disagree but they are still historical documents and the > signatures on them by departed developers is the very history of > crissfire, which itself has significant historical import. > > Then there is copyright consideration. Software is speach. How is going from: msg Created: 1994-12-26 name (email at somedomain.tld) Modified: 2022-08-03 Firstname Lastname endmsg to: msg Created: 1994-12-26 name Modified: 2022-08-03 Firstname Lastname endmsg A historical signature? Copyright material? Software? Speach? From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sun Jun 18 22:01:23 2023 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 23:01:23 -0400 Subject: [crossfire] Remove or keep contact email addresses from map headers? In-Reply-To: <8dce1e2f-8332-cf76-64d0-fbf269fa1ef7@real-time.com> References: <8c5bd5ab-fc1b-0398-0366-1cb4bbeec20b@real-time.com> <20230618190013.GA5917@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <8dce1e2f-8332-cf76-64d0-fbf269fa1ef7@real-time.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/23 22:35, Rick Tanner wrote: > > A historical signature? > Copyright material? > Software? > Speach? Copyright of anything exists in the US upon creation. This is a record of the creation of the work. It is historical as it record the creator and the date and his/her previous contact infomation. And all software code is speach... not just legally, but ethically. Why work so hard to get rid of a historical record that has no afect on the functionality of the software? -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013