From crossfire-request Thu May 5 09:59:42 1994 Return-Path: <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Received: from spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk (root@spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.8.9]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 5 May 1994 09:59:40 +0200 Received: from tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk (93ekt@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.21.140]) by spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk; Thu, 5 May 1994 08:59:33 +0100 From: "E.K. Tan" <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <26354.199405050759@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Subject: BInaries To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Thu, 5 May 94 8:59:32 BST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Status: RO HI there, I am having trouble compiling v0.90.4 of crossfire on HPUX 9000. Wonder if anyone can help ( crossfire won't compile due to unsatisfy symbols ) or can pass me the binaries. Thanks! Yingjie From crossfire-request Wed May 4 11:51:49 1994 Return-Path: <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Received: from spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk (root@spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.8.9]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 4 May 1994 11:51:38 +0200 Received: from tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk (93ekt@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.21.140]) by spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk; Wed, 4 May 1994 10:51:35 +0100 From: "E.K. Tan" <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <27052.199405040951@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Subject: sites To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Wed, 4 May 94 10:51:33 BST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Status: RO Hi, I am new to crossfire. Can someone kindly tell me the sites of the servers and the version??? Yingjie From crossfire-request Mon May 2 09:30:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from aino.it.lut.fi (haatanen@aino.it.lut.fi [157.24.11.71]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 2 May 1994 09:30:12 +0200 Received: from localhost (haatanen@localhost) by aino.it.lut.fi (8.6.5/8.6.5/1.12.kim) id KAA15787; Mon, 2 May 1994 10:30:08 +0300 (for crossfire@ifi.uio.no) From: Tero Haatanen Message-Id: <199405020730.KAA15787@aino.it.lut.fi> Subject: Re: buttons/altars question To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 2 May 94 10:30:07 EET DST In-Reply-To: <199405010328.UAA20804@soda.berkeley.edu>; from "Peter Mardahl" at Apr 30, 94 8:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO > What exactly is a trigger_altar SUPPOSED to do? > I see no difference in its behavior from a regular altar. Probably, because there isn't any :). When I coded those trigger- based gates/buttons/altars I didn't allow to connect trigger and normal buttons to each other to avoid conflicts, but now they can be used with each others. Note that trigger items are activated by speed and normal items only when activated first time. To test this make map and put there director_t (all fileds to 1) and normal and trigger button (also connected to 1) and stand above the buttons to see the difference. > What I'd LIKE a trigger altar to do is toggle state > whenever someone dumps the requisite garbage on it. Original altars were one-time-only on the purpose, but it makes sense that trigger ones can be used many times (e.g. pay 2 platinacoins to enter inn). Is there anyone who wants to make goldfloor looks better and change it type to trigger_altar? > Anyone object if I make this happen? Will it break any maps? I don't think so, altar_triggers didn't even worked the previous release, they used other_arch instead slaying field :(. > I'd really love it if someone would fix this for me. I haven't time to test, but it seems if you move altar->value test from check_altar (button.c) to one level upper (apply() in apply.c) it should work nicely. Hopefully this helps, if not let me know and I try to look at it. -Tero From crossfire-request Mon May 2 08:10:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Mon, 2 May 1994 08:10:13 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA01267 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Sun, 1 May 1994 23:10:10 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA01961 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Sun, 1 May 1994 23:10:08 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 May 1994 23:10:08 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405020610.AA01961@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: yet another mailing list? Status: RO A new release will probably be out in a few days. Obviously, a message will go out on the announce list when it happens. --Mark From crossfire-request Mon May 2 00:10:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from menja.ifi.uio.no (1232@menja.ifi.uio.no [129.240.82.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 2 May 1994 00:10:12 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by menja.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 2 May 1994 00:10:11 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 00:10:11 +0200 Message-Id: <199405012210.10997.menja.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: Peter Mardahl's message of Sat, 30 Apr 1994 14:26:05 -0700 <199404302126.OAA19385@soda.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: yet another mailing list? Status: RO +--- Peter Mardahl: | How about a crossfire-projects mailing list? Idea is, people who | are working on stuff could mail to crossfire-projects, saying "i am | working on this" it might eliminate duplication of effort for some | things. (has there been much duplicated effort?) I think that's just the thing we can use this mailing list for. There hasn't been that much traffic now that the client/server debate has died down. Speaking of which: Carl, is a second draft coming? Do we have team willing to do work on it? Mark, what are your release plans? Kjetil T. From crossfire-request Fri May 13 09:19:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 13 May 1994 04:25:26 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA23681; Fri, 13 May 1994 12:23:37 +1000 Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 12:23:37 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405130223.AA23681@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: A bug, and earth elementals. Status: RO > Earth elementals: Summoning these guys is now my favorite way to > gain experience. I go to 3 different dreads that I have found, and > summon an earth elemental, and sit there for 45 seconds, and gain > 30,000 experience. :) Should an earth elemental be able to take out > a dread so easily? I certainly kill earth elementals more easily > than I kill dreads. > > Michael > Err, no. I don't think you should be able to kill a dread with an Earth elemental ! I actually tried this trick ages (back around 0.87 or earlier) and managed to kill a dread with a few elementals (or maybe they were golems) Maybe we need to tweak spell_params. Rupert From crossfire-request Fri May 13 09:40:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 13 May 1994 01:58:09 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA21561 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 12 May 1994 16:57:55 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA07027 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 12 May 1994 16:57:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 16:57:53 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405122357.AA07027@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@ptc.com Subject: Re: bag bug Status: RO I believe bags and backpacks are both considered the same. PLEASE: if you are posting a bug, say what version the bug occurs in. Assuming that everyone is using the most recent version is not a good assumption to make. Earth elementals: Taking a quick look, I notice they are immune to cold. Since this tendes to be the dread's main weapon, it makes sense that they can do better. From crossfire-request Thu May 12 21:03:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 21:03:24 +0200 Received: from fermat.dartmouth.edu by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id PAA24839; Thu, 12 May 1994 15:03:21 -0400 Received: by fermat.dartmouth.edu (NX5.67d/NX3.0S) id AA05738; Thu, 12 May 94 15:00:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 May 94 15:00:47 -0400 From: Michael Glenn Message-Id: <9405121900.AA05738@fermat.dartmouth.edu> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: A bug, and earth elementals. Status: RO Bug: If you toggle pickup so that you pickup all items in a square, and have an active bag so objects get automatically put into the bag, and your bag is full, you run into an infinite loop. Appparently the game fails to put the object in the bag, but since it is still in the square, tries again. Earth elementals: Summoning these guys is now my favorite way to gain experience. I go to 3 different dreads that I have found, and summon an earth elemental, and sit there for 45 seconds, and gain 30,000 experience. :) Should an earth elemental be able to take out a dread so easily? I certainly kill earth elementals more easily than I kill dreads. Michael From crossfire-request Thu May 12 17:43:27 1994 Return-Path: Received: from mailsun.aber.ac.uk (isode@mailsun.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 17:43:26 +0200 Received: from athene.dcs.aber.ac.uk by mailsun.aber.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 12 May 1994 16:43:15 +0100 Received: from thorbb by athene.dcs.aber.ac.uk (4.1/aberclient-4.0-cs-1.1) id AA20878; Thu, 12 May 94 16:42:52 BST To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: CF: character crossover from 0.90.5 -> 0.91.0? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 May 1994 10:07:38 -0000." <9405110907.AA02176@emerald.cm.cf.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 16:43:11 +0100 Message-Id: <12598.768757391@mailhost.aber.ac.uk> From: Benjamin Thomas Ketteridge Status: RO Simon McIntosh-Smith wrote: > can anyone tell me if you can take players files from 0.90.5 and use > them in 0.90.1? I'm about to upgrade, but a lot of us in Cardiff have > some characters we've put a lot of time into developing and we'd like > to carry on with them if possible. Unlike in the update from 0.89.3 to 0.90.0/1 where I had this problem too, all the updates since have caused no problems at all in this area for me. With the 0.89.3->0.90 I ended up generating a new character and editing the player file manually to regain the stats of the old one. Simple really, but on the boarders of cheating, I know. :-( Tara, Ben. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | _|--|_ | Disclaimer: I've got a degree and maybe 1/2 of a PhD. | | (\/) +--------------------------------+--------------------------+ | vv | However, I still know nothing! | btk@aber.ac.uk | +--------------+--------------------------------+--------------------------+ From crossfire-request Thu May 12 17:53:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from chenas.inria.fr (chenas.inria.fr [192.134.192.136]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 17:53:08 +0200 Received: from melimelo.enst-bretagne.fr by chenas.inria.fr (5.65c8d/92.02.29) via Fnet-EUnet id AA02905; Thu, 12 May 1994 17:53:06 +0200 (MET) Received: from lcit.enst-bretagne.fr (morgon.enst-bretagne.fr) by melimelo.enst-bretagne.fr (5.67b8/090294); Thu, 12 May 1994 18:51:27 +0200 Received: by lcit.enst-bretagne.fr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07909; Thu, 12 May 94 16:06:32 +0100 Date: Thu, 12 May 94 16:06:32 +0100 From: orion@lcit.enst-bretagne.fr (Luc et Rom) Message-Id: <9405121506.AA07909@lcit.enst-bretagne.fr > To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Help... Status: RO please send me all the ftp addresses for crossfire last version... I've got many problems with the normal one.... thanx in advance. rollet@lcit.enst-bretagne.fr rollet@vaxli.enst-bretagne.fr rollet@enstb.enst-bretagne.fr Rom. From crossfire-request Thu May 12 07:30:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz (kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.5.20]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 07:30:38 +0200 Received: from debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz (debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.8.46]) by kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz (8.6.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA09581 for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 17:30:15 +1200 Received: (ninja@localhost) by debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz (8.6.8/8.6.6) id RAA11005; Thu, 12 May 1994 17:30:29 +1200 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 17:30:27 +1200 (NZST) From: Ninja Subject: oops! re: bitmaps and fonts, etc... To: crossfire mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO sorry about that, in a blatant attack of stupidity, i forgot about my archetypes tar file. i think i found what i wanted now... steve From crossfire-request Thu May 12 06:45:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz (kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.5.20]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 06:45:06 +0200 Received: from debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz (debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.8.46]) by kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz (8.6.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA08729 for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 16:44:40 +1200 Received: (ninja@localhost) by debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz (8.6.8/8.6.6) id QAA10409; Thu, 12 May 1994 16:44:55 +1200 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 16:44:52 +1200 (NZST) From: Ninja Subject: bitmaps, fonts, etc. To: crossfire mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO how do i change the ninja player graphics? the current bitmap for 0.91.0 looks unflattering, (a ninja with a shield?) i had made up a new set of ninja bitmpas for 0.89 which looked ok, how do i add them into the new version? steve From crossfire-request Thu May 12 00:41:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 00:41:04 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06455 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 11 May 1994 15:40:46 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA27375 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 11 May 1994 15:40:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:40:44 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405112240.AA27375@bolero.rahul.net> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: CF: character crossover from 0.90.5 -> 0.91.0? Status: RO There should be no problem with moving an old player file (as long as it is after 90.0) into a newer version. Before 90.0, there was some differences in the save format, which would cause them not to work (and in fact, crash the server). ---Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 11 20:04:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 11 May 1994 20:04:27 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA12205; Wed, 11 May 1994 11:03:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 11:03:26 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405111803.LAA12205@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: CF: character crossover from 0.90.5 -> 0.91.0? Status: RO Player files? I plugged the old player files into the 91 server with no second thoughts about, and no problems! Give it a shot, and if it doesn't work let me know! Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 12 03:15:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from acasun.eckerd.edu (acasun.eckerd.edu [198.187.211.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 03:15:34 +0200 Received: by acasun.eckerd.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10918; Wed, 11 May 1994 21:12:09 +0500 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 21:12:09 +0500 From: roy@eckerd.edu (Jonathan Roy) Message-Id: <9405120112.AA10918@acasun.eckerd.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: CF: Can't enter shops! Content-Length: 250 Status: RO We have a serious problem with the new version... Whenever we step on a enterance square at a shop, it simple says "Thanks for visiting our shop". Is there something new we are overlooking, or is this a bug? (If so, does anyone else also have it?) From crossfire-request Wed May 11 11:08:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 11 May 1994 11:07:59 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <27433-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 11 May 1994 10:07:46 +0100 Date: Wed, 11 May 94 10:07:38 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405110907.AA02176@emerald.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: CF: character crossover from 0.90.5 -> 0.91.0? Status: RO can anyone tell me if you can take players files from 0.90.5 and use them in 0.90.1? I'm about to upgrade, but a lot of us in Cardiff have some characters we've put a lot of time into developing and we'd like to carry on with them if possible. Thanks, Sy From crossfire-request Wed May 11 08:02:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 11 May 1994 08:02:22 +0200 Received: from dancer.Dartmouth.EDU by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id CAA18652; Wed, 11 May 1994 02:02:20 -0400 Message-id: <3840670@dancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 11 May 94 02:02:18 EDT From: Preston.F.Crow@Dartmouth.EDU (Preston F. Crow) Reply-To: preston.crow@dancer.dartmouth.edu Subject: CF: /tmp filling up To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO I just had a problem with 0.91.0 not erasing files in /tmp. It filled up the 8megs and then continued to run, but the server started displaying error messages. I quickly made my way to a tavern and quit (the players directory is on another partition), but now anytime I try to load that character, it crashes the server. I think there's several problems here: 1. /tmp isn't properly cleaned up. 2. The server doesn't detect or deal with a disk full problem gracefully (unless there's another reason for the corrupted player file). Ideally, it should expire maps early if /tmp fills up. Also, it should be configurable to use another directory from the command line (if it isn't already--I haven't checked). 3. Slightly corrupted character files crash the server (I'll make the character file that is doing this available to anyone that wants to debug it). A truely stable server should never crash on a bad data file--at worst, it should refuse to load the character. Another problem (which may be the reason behind the character crashing the server): 4. The server complained about an unknown archetype when I learned the spell "rune of transferrence." --PC P.S. If everyone uses "CF:" at the beginning of the subject line, we would all know that it came from this list--it's very helpful for those of us without filters and on several lists. P.P.S. I'm running under Ultrix 4.3. I had to write my own strdup() function to get this new version to compile. It seems that there were a lot of changes that made it less portable. From crossfire-request Wed May 11 06:52:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 11 May 1994 06:52:50 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA21714 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 10 May 1994 21:52:37 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA26392 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 10 May 1994 21:52:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 21:52:36 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405110452.AA26392@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, grobi@uni-paderborn.de Subject: Re: Bug or feature ?? Cc: andi@uni-paderborn.de, emu@uni-paderborn.de, tom@uni-paderborn.de Status: RO it depends on the setting of hte peaceful flag (each player can set it). By default, peaceful is on. This means you will push friendly objects, not attack them. But once you do attack a monster via some means (missile weapon or spell), peaceful is turned off. If you want to be able to hit another player, or kill your pets, just turn peaceful off. From crossfire-request Tue May 10 20:51:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from uni-paderborn.de (uni-paderborn.de [131.234.2.3]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 20:51:31 +0200 Received: from plato.uni-paderborn.de (plato-mb.uni-paderborn.de [131.234.116.11]) by uni-paderborn.de (8.6.9/master-pb) with SMTP id UAA17425 for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 20:51:21 +0200 Received: from planck.uni-paderborn.de (planck-mb.uni-paderborn.de) by plato.uni-paderborn.de with SMTP id AA03125 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 10 May 1994 20:51:49 +0200 Received: by planck.uni-paderborn.de id AA16092 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Tue, 10 May 1994 20:51:50 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 20:51:50 +0200 From: Juergen Peus Message-Id: <199405101851.AA16092@planck.uni-paderborn.de> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Cc: tom@uni-paderborn.de, andi@uni-paderborn.de, grobi@uni-paderborn.de, emu@uni-paderborn.de Subject: Bug or feature ?? Status: RO Hi !! You all know pushing other players around is great fun but what about the following behaviour?? Is it a feature of the game or just a bug ?? Imagine two players A and B. Somehow B causes A to lose some hitpoints (hp). Now A is still able to push B around but if B tries to push A, he will hit A instead !! This happens until another creature (monster or player) makes A lose some hp. I have seen the same behaviour when playing with pet monsters. Normally you just walk through them, but in the case mentioned above, you will destroy your own pets !! This situation may be a very big problem when playing with multiple players. Please help !! Thanks, Juergen ----------- Jürgen Péus (grobi@uni-paderborn.de) From owner-crossfire Tue May 10 07:26:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 07:26:16 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA20424 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 9 May 1994 22:25:43 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA23844 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 9 May 1994 22:25:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 22:25:42 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405100525.AA23844@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no, mjcugley@mcs.dundee.ac.uk, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: A bug. Status: RO The bug was fixed. I have hopefully fixed (For 91.1) the problem so that ohter players will still get updates as a map is loading (this can be turn off in the config.h file in case it does cause problems). If you find a bug, please make sure that you are either using the newest version, or look at the CHANGES file in a newer version (if for some reason you don't want to upgrade) and make sure it has not been fixed. From crossfire-request Tue May 10 07:27:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 07:27:00 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA20370 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 9 May 1994 22:23:26 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA23625 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 9 May 1994 22:23:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 22:23:25 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405100523.AA23625@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, rgg@aaii.oz.au Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO Several artifact weapons have attack types other than physical. Like the darkblade attacks with 'weaponmagic'. This means monsters immune to physical can be damaged with it. Other artifacts have attacktypes of 'fire' or cold (firebrand and frostbrand I believe). I don't think any of these artifact weapons that have fire or cold also have magic. Thus, a creature that is protected from magic, but has no protection from fire or cold, would take full damage. From crossfire-request Tue May 10 07:14:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 07:14:50 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA20022 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 9 May 1994 22:14:36 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA22793 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 9 May 1994 22:14:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 22:14:35 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405100514.AA22793@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, khw2x@sonja.math.virginia.edu Subject: Re: gzip and Xpm (and funny looking pix) Status: RO Many objects may have a white (or I guess in some cases black) in XPM mode. This is because some objects were changed to be 'floor's, and thus the bits that are set to none are actually drawn. As for gzip, try setting the PATH enviromental variable for root before you run the server. From crossfire-request Tue May 10 08:01:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 08:01:39 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA18325; Tue, 10 May 1994 14:50:59 +1000 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 14:50:59 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405100450.AA18325@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: X11R6 Status: RO In case anyone was interested, I have successfully built crossfire-0.91.0 with X11R6 under SunOS 4.1.3. Rupert From crossfire-request Tue May 10 03:43:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 03:43:30 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA17140; Tue, 10 May 1994 11:41:34 +1000 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 11:41:34 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405100141.AA17140@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO > OK, so not many spells do physical damage - that clears part > of the confusion up. But it still doesn't explain why a lot > of the monsters (skulls for example) are listed as being > immune/protected from magical and then ALSO immune/protected > from fire/cold/fear etc. If you are protected from magical then > you are also immune to fear etc. > > Perhaps it is possible to have fire that is non-magical. Is > this true? If so how is it possible? Does a "burning item" > burn with magical- or non-magical fire? As many of the monsters do non-magical damage (as PeterM has detailed) it is useful for monsters to be protected against fire/cold/fear etc to reduce the effects of "friendly fire". It is also useful for future development where players may be able to cause these attack types (I think fireborns already do (non-magical) fire damage). Maybe we'll have items like flasks of burning oil, or flamethrowers 8-) [I've been thinking about an SF addition to Crossfire for a while now; with a few new archetypes and bitmaps it wouldn't be hard] Rupert From crossfire-request Tue May 10 01:30:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 10 May 1994 01:30:40 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id QAA15445 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Mon, 9 May 1994 16:30:28 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 16:30:28 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405092330.QAA15445@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: monster spellcasting and abilities Status: RO I looked at the code a little bit. It looks like it works just like i thought. If a monster contains an 'ability', it casts the spell non-magicaly. You can tell if a monster casts something as an ability by killing it. If it leaves behind a wand, rod, horn, spellbook, or whatever, it was probably casting it as magic.` Otherwise, it was an ability, and your amulet of protection from magic will not help you. I do not like this much. For some monsters, SOME of their spells should be abilities. Paralysis and fear for undead should be abilities. Fire spells, and cold spells for undead should not be abilities, they should be spells. Dragons can fire large fireballs as abilities. These should be spells. They might be, if the attacktype of the ability for 'cast fireball' is ORed with magic. Abilities which are always magical: magic bullet ability_coldspell ability_firespell ability_lightning ability_mass_confusion ability_missile (magic missile spell) ability_paralyze ability_speedball Those are the purely magical abilities of monsters. Interestingly, skulls nad beholders have exactly the same abilities. Which are: (magical as spells): paralyze, lightning,bullet, missile, firespell coldspell (abilities) fear, poison, slow So your amulet of protection from magic does you lots of good against skulls and beholders, not so much agianst dragons. Regards, PeterM From owner-crossfire Mon May 9 23:11:01 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 23:10:59 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id OAA27186; Mon, 9 May 1994 14:10:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 14:10:53 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405092110.OAA27186@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no, mjcugley@mcs.dundee.ac.uk Subject: Re: A bug. Status: RO I think mark fixed the exiting problem, or someone fixed it, in 91. Try upgrading the server you have to 91. regards, peterm From crossfire-request Mon May 9 23:09:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 23:09:18 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id OAA26816; Mon, 9 May 1994 14:08:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 14:08:39 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405092108.OAA26816@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO When you cast a spell, as a player, the attacktype of the spell you cast is ORed with magic. SO burning hands spell is both a fire and a magical attack. Suppose you had a pet dragon. When he 'breathes', it is the same thing as a burning hand spell, except the attack is only fire. A great many monsters cast spells this way: protection from magic does not help you from their 'spells', because they are not magic. The create bomb spell is the only one that a person can cast (except maybe a magic bullet spell, im not sure) which creates a spell which is not magical as well as the attacktype of the spell. Lightning is magic-electricity, fireball is fire-magic ..... The only things which use actual magical attacks against your player, and the only things which protected magic will help you with, are: things which you kill and find spellbooks in them. (I could be wrong about this, actually, but i think it's the case. Anyone know for sure?) These are the only monsters i know of that an amulet of protection from magic will help you fight: demons, dark elves, liches, spectres, big wizards, angels Amulets of protection from magic are really mostly useful against friendly fire. Personally, i think that most monsters SHOULD NOT be casting their stuff as abilities instead of as magic. This might atually be the case, anyone know for sure? I haven't hacked this part of the code to find this out, and the documentation, of course, doesn't mention it. regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Mon May 9 22:52:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 22:52:54 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id NAA24312; Mon, 9 May 1994 13:52:37 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:52:37 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405092052.NAA24312@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Inge.Fenstad@alkymi.unit.no, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Cloaks in crossfire 0.91 Status: RO Where have you seen all these cloaks? Something is wrong. I very rarely find any of the better types of cloaks, most of them are silk or leather. If you go to a shop with an absurdly large inventory, then perhaps you will have a good chance of finding one of these things. The more powerful cloaks such as immunity, protection, and char. should occur 1/250 of the time, and should be priced very high. Shops with absurdly large inventories should not exist, otherwise you will find not only powerful cloaks, but other powerful artifacts as well. The cloaks are no more common than other types of powerful artifacts. If you do not like the cloaks, then remove the ones you don't like from the artifacts file in lib/artifacts. I agree that it is very bad if these things are common, my intention is that they be *rare*. This is a very good argument for not having large supermarket type stores. Keep shop inventories small, map makers! Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Mon May 9 16:05:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 16:05:56 +0200 Received: from sonja.math.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa21156; 9 May 94 10:05 EDT Received: by sonja.math.Virginia.EDU (NX5.67c/NX3.0S) id AA04409; Mon, 9 May 94 10:05:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 May 94 10:05:51 -0400 From: "Kevin H. Weiss" Message-Id: <9405091405.AA04409@sonja.math.Virginia.EDU> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: gzip and Xpm (and funny looking pix) Status: RO OK. I know I've asked about this before, but the problem hasn't gone away... I'm using Xpm Version 3.4a, and gzip/gunzip 1.2.3 on a NeXT. If I compress the crossfire.pix files, I get the following errors: Error code BadDrawable (invalid Pixmap or Window parameter) Error creating pixmap /usr/games/crossfire/lib/crossfire.pix.1, error -1. Error code BadPixmap (invalid Pixmap parameter) The Xpm manual SAYS XpmReadFileToImage should be able to read gzip'd stuff with the '.gz' extension, but I sure can't get it to work! By the way, 'crossfire -server' is running as root, and gzip is in /usr/local/bin. Anybody know what to do? And, if so, PLEASE feel free to document this somewhere. :) Thanks, kevin P.S. sonja.math.virginia.edu is now running v0.91.0 P.P.S. Why do somethings have a black background, when they ought to be transparent? Things were fine in v0.90.5... P.P.P.S. Despite the complaints, things are looking better! Keep up the great work everybody!!! From crossfire-request Mon May 9 14:23:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 14:23:12 +0200 Message-Id: <199405091223.3146.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk id <12232-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Mon, 9 May 1994 13:20:58 +0100 Subject: Re: Monster Protection To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:20:54 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199405091046.3750.gymir.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> from "Frank Tore Johansen" at May 9, 94 12:46:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 889 From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Sender: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk Status: RO > I think just about the only spell doing physical damage is > the silly create bomb spell. 8) I just had to make it, after > someone had drawn those bombs. Due to this, magic cost of > the spell is beefed more than reasonable, so mages will still > have a certain weakness against monsters like beholders. > > Maybe shockwave also does physical damage now, haven't > looked at it. OK, so not many spells do physical damage - that clears part of the confusion up. But it still doesn't explain why a lot of the monsters (skulls for example) are listed as being immune/protected from magical and then ALSO immune/protected from fire/cold/fear etc. If you are protected from magical then you are also immune to fear etc. Perhaps it is possible to have fire that is non-magical. Is this true? If so how is it possible? Does a "burning item" burn with magical- or non-magical fire? Sy From crossfire-request Mon May 9 12:46:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from gymir.ifi.uio.no (2037@gymir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.80.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 12:46:55 +0200 From: Frank Tore Johansen Received: (from frankj@localhost) by gymir.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 9 May 1994 12:46:54 +0200 Message-Id: <199405091046.3750.gymir.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Subject: Re: Monster Protection To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 12:46:52 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199405070701.AAA24816@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 7, 94 00:01:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 378 Status: RO I think just about the only spell doing physical damage is the silly create bomb spell. 8) I just had to make it, after someone had drawn those bombs. Due to this, magic cost of the spell is beefed more than reasonable, so mages will still have a certain weakness against monsters like beholders. Maybe shockwave also does physical damage now, haven't looked at it. -Frank. From crossfire-request Mon May 9 11:48:27 1994 Return-Path: Received: from ild.alkymi.unit.no (ild.alkymi.unit.no [129.241.113.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 11:48:26 +0200 Received: from jord.alkymi.unit.no by ild.alkymi.unit.no with SMTP id AA26475 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 9 May 1994 11:48:21 +0200 From: Inge Berg Fenstad Received: by jord.alkymi.unit.no ; Mon, 9 May 1994 11:48:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199405090948.AA15930@jord.alkymi.unit.no> Subject: Cloaks in crossfire 0.91 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 11:48:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 475 Status: RO It's nice to have an addition to the existing items but don't you think the enchantments on cloak are a bit good. I found at the first look in the shops: 1 with +2cha 2 with immune acid 1 with immune a LOT of things (incl. acid) and no flaws whatsoever ? espessially the cha-cloak seems TOTALLY insane...since you within 3 cha-spells can get to cha20 (whatever how ugly you are) Well i have complained about this before...but i still thyink the cloaks are a bit too good ! From crossfire-request Mon May 9 10:00:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 10:00:31 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <22126-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Mon, 9 May 1994 09:00:10 +0100 Date: Mon, 9 May 94 09:00:05 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405090800.AA04442@emerald.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO > burning hands not being magic means nothing this: > (in the archetypes) > dragons use 'burning hands' as their breath. this is > supposed to be real fire. however, if you amke the > archetype a magical attack, dragon breath will be magical too. > > What happens is that when a player uses a wand, staff, scroll, rod, hor > or whatever in spells.c, the attacktype is ORed with AT_MAGIC. > > This is the general case with spells. OK, so how are we supposed to know what counts as a magical attack and what counts as a non-magical attack without looking at the code!? (eg You are surrounded by flames - are they magical or are they non-magical flames? Will your amulet of "immune to magical" help you or not?) Could someone list which spell effects are magical and which aren't? Thanks, Sy Simon N. McIntosh-Smith, PhD candidate | Email : Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk Room M/1.36 Department of Computing Maths | Phone : +44 (0)222 874000 University of Wales, College of Cardiff | Fax : +44 (0)222 666182 PO Box 916, Cardiff, Wales, CF2 4YN, U.K. | Home : +44 (0)222 560522 Http : http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/People/Simon.Smith.html From crossfire-request Sun May 8 22:55:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 8 May 1994 22:55:13 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA21909; Sun, 8 May 1994 13:54:58 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405082054.NAA21909@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: your mail To: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu (Peter Mardahl) Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 13:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405080724.AAA17357@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 8, 94 00:24:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 965 Status: RO > > > Could people please remember that documenting new > additions and changes is very important? It's > not too much fun having to hack the code every time I want > to do something. > > For example, the new dm_file stuff. I had to hack the code > to figure out how to get dm mode for a character. > > Maybe there was online help, I didn't think of that. > But when you do something, could you please just write a > little something about it and stick it in the doc dir? > > Anyway, here's a doc for dm_files: > > dm_file.doc > > Passwords are no longer required for characters to > achieve dm mode. To enter dm mode, a file in the > library dir must contain the login name of the person > wishing to become dm. > The format of the file is one login name per line. > example: > peterm > mehlhaff > smurf > root > crosfire > ack....I had a description of how to use the dm_file in define.h....I guess I didnt send that portion to mark :< sorry. T. From crossfire-request Sun May 8 21:03:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from yrsa.ifi.uio.no (bjornlu@yrsa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.104.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 8 May 1994 21:03:14 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from bjornlu@localhost) by yrsa.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 8 May 1994 21:03:13 +0200 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 21:03:12 +0200 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: the new maps Message-ID: Status: RO >Is anyone else out there making maps? I sure am. I try to make my maps fit all levels. By this I mean that one should play for quite some time to 'finish' the map. Even lvl 20-30 characters should use some time, not just run through it. But run, hide, heal oneself in a hidden corner and this time rather cast 'invisibility to undead' instead of running through. But low lvl characters should also be able to use the maps, so I've tried to make them progressively difficult, with few surprises. I didn't say no surprises. In the maps currently included in the standard distribution, there aren't really any BIG levels. Sure, they're 'big' enough, but run for 30 secs and you're outta there. With my maps, word of recall is reborn. And marking rune born. Comments welcome. - Bjorn From crossfire-request Sun May 8 10:58:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 8 May 1994 10:57:58 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA02401 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 8 May 1994 01:57:51 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA25566 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Sun, 8 May 1994 01:57:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 01:57:50 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405080857.AA25566@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Mod documentation. Status: RO I really agree with Peter on this one - please give a description of any patches you submit to me. I plan to write a source coding guideline sometime soon. Some of the things might be somewhat obvious, others more obscure (for example, using static/global variables to keep values across functions calls is extremely dangerous, because that function can be called from a function it calls). Anything that needs to have its value retained beyond one (that) call to the function needs to have a link in the character or something. I think this was the reason why the disappearing exit bug/characters appearing in the middle of oceans happen. Some of those functions used static variables, and during the loading of the map, it could be called again because a different character enters an exit. That static variable then does not have the expected value that the original calling function put in it. Other things my be about identation and comment style, and fixing code so it operates properly and is expandable. Such that expanding a feature should not be a major pain for each expansion (like inventory display was). I know that some people have submitted patches in the past that may have failed in some of these areas. Don't worry about it or take offense - no guidelines are in place right now, some of these were just convenient cases I could use). --Mark From crossfire-request Sun May 8 09:24:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 8 May 1994 09:24:35 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id AAA17357 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Sun, 8 May 1994 00:24:31 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 00:24:31 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405080724.AAA17357@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO Could people please remember that documenting new additions and changes is very important? It's not too much fun having to hack the code every time I want to do something. For example, the new dm_file stuff. I had to hack the code to figure out how to get dm mode for a character. Maybe there was online help, I didn't think of that. But when you do something, could you please just write a little something about it and stick it in the doc dir? Anyway, here's a doc for dm_files: dm_file.doc Passwords are no longer required for characters to achieve dm mode. To enter dm mode, a file in the library dir must contain the login name of the person wishing to become dm. The format of the file is one login name per line. example: peterm mehlhaff smurf root crosfire From crossfire-request Sat May 7 23:05:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 7 May 1994 23:05:32 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA07623; Sat, 7 May 1994 14:05:21 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405072105.OAA07623@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: the new maps To: master@rahul.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 14:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, tvangod@ecst.csuchico.edu In-Reply-To: <199405070556.AA01990@bolero.rahul.net> from "Mark Wedel" at May 6, 94 10:56:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3708 Status: RO > One thing I try to fix (and people should keep in mind) is to make > treasures random. Don't put fixed rings or potions in place. With random > treasure, how good the treasure is will be affected by the difficulty > of the monsters. > > So a bunch of chests with low level monsters is not quite so bad, because > most of the stuff will be junk. There were a couple of spots where treasure was easily accessable...yet in other spots on the same map there were much tougher monsters. This has the effect of generating above average treasure for what a player has to kill to get to it. I removed "easy" treasure...or at least reduced the amount a player could grab. > I would like maps that are not the mindless killing of monsters. But > I have gotten very few new maps to put in - those maps were from and > old distribution (0.90.0 I think). true, there still aren't enough "good" maps....it would be nice to see other people working on them. I do know that here at Chico at least we have had another flury of map makers....tabland's quest is done..(i think)...I partially opened up skud tower. A couple new quests have been made. After we play test them some more I will probably ship these to Mark. Is anyone else out there making maps? > The real problem is what is considered proper reward for treasure. For > example, I did not think that killing a titan in order to get an artifact > was unreasonable. IF you can kill a titan, you probably already have > artifacts. Yes, the real problem we have been having here is a 12th level character giving frostbrand or some other high powered weapon to newbie players. What we did to resolve this is give each artifact a level. If the player is not at least that level the player is not allowed to wield the weapon. This is very similar to the improve weapon stuff. :> > IF someone can come up with good treasure values for monster numbers/ > difficulty, it would make it much easier to adjust the difficulty of maps. > > The problem I have is that in order to gauge things properly, a character > of the appropriate level is needed. For example, a 10'th level character > can easily kill a bunch of gnolls or madman or whatever is in the second > level of the cd maps, but at the same time, most of that treasure is > meaningless. Maybe at 4'th level, it is a good challenge, and then by > playing that level character, you could see if that treasure is reasonable. Another possibility would be to make a new archetype which when walked on checks the level of the player, if that player is over/under a certain level it will not allow the player to walk on it. Thus, 12th level dude comes along to scum money from a 4th level dungeon... they would not be allowed to enter or dimension door across the "blocking_square." Or if 2nd level newbie wants to enter a 14th level dungeon one could restrict newbie from getting his butt kicked. > As for monster mixing: There really are not any guidelines. Wyverns > and giants seem to be a very popular mix, even though the giants could be > killed by the wyverns fire. Undead with undead is reasonable. A > titan with most anything of lesser powerful could be seen as reasonable > (other monsters are the titans servants/pets). This is where a storyline can come into play :> I dont mind there being weird mixes of monsters, just so long as there IS a reason for them being there :> > I would be interested in seeing/getting the modified maps, to see why > (what) you have changed Tyler. Really all I have changed is the amount of treasure in each level. Basically less. I also did the Santo Domingo maps, removing easily accessable potions and the gobs of treasure. T. From owner-crossfire Mon May 9 19:21:54 1994 Return-Path: <<@ib.rl.ac.uk:mjcugley@mcs.dundee.ac.uk>> Received: from ib.rl.ac.uk (ib.rl.ac.uk [192.100.78.20]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 9 May 1994 19:21:50 +0200 Received: from letterbox.rl.ac.uk by ib.rl.ac.uk (IBM VM SMTP V2R1) with TCP; Mon, 09 May 94 18:21:29 BST Received: from pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk by letterbox.rl.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <18300-0@letterbox.rl.ac.uk>; Sat, 7 May 1994 15:14:37 +0100 Received: from forth.mcs.dund.ac.uk (forth.mcs.dundee.ac.uk) by pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20908; Sat, 7 May 94 15:18:28 BST Date: Sat, 7 May 94 15:18:28 BST From: mjcugley@mcs.dundee.ac.uk (Womble with Attitude) Message-Id: <9405071418.AA20908@pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Subject: A bug. Status: RO Under 0.90.4 there seems to be a bug as follows: if two people use an exit at the same time, the detinations seem to get munged somehow: one person ends up in a map which looks like the map they should be on, but according to the who command is the same as the map the other person went to. Exits on this map all are closed, which means the person is trapped. * mjcugley@maths-and-cs.dundee.ac.uk (internet) * * or mjcugley@uk.ac.dund.maths-and-cs (JANet) * * * * People! Can't live with 'em, can't trade them in for spares... * From crossfire-request Sat May 7 09:18:34 1994 Return-Path: <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Received: from spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk (root@spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.8.9]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 7 May 1994 09:18:33 +0200 Received: from tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk (93ekt@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.21.140]) by spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk; Sat, 7 May 1994 08:18:31 +0100 From: "E.K. Tan" <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <24608.199405070718@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Subject: compiling problems To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Sat, 7 May 94 8:18:29 BST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Status: RO Hi, Well it is great that the new version came up but I am having problems compiling ( again! ). The machine I am on is HPUX 9000s800. The main problems are : 1. I don't have a ttycom.h file ( I tried to use tty.h ) 2.crossfire won't link ( /bin/ld: unsatisfied symbol ... Error (data)) I am wondering if any of you out that had such experience. I will be very grateful if someone could enlighten me on what to do. Many thanks ! From crossfire-request Sat May 7 09:01:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 7 May 1994 09:01:27 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id AAA24816; Sat, 7 May 1994 00:01:22 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 00:01:22 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405070701.AAA24816@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, master@rahul.net Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO burning hands not being magic means nothing this: (in the archetypes) dragons use 'burning hands' as their breath. this is supposed to be real fire. however, if you amke the archetype a magical attack, dragon breath will be magical too. What happens is that when a player uses a wand, staff, scroll, rod, hor or whatever in spells.c, the attacktype is ORed with AT_MAGIC. This is the general case with spells. regards, peterM From crossfire-request Sat May 7 08:11:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 7 May 1994 08:11:07 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06948 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 May 1994 23:10:58 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA02609 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 May 1994 23:10:56 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 23:10:56 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405070610.AA02609@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO Also, some spells are not magic (at least according to the archetype). Burning hands is one. From crossfire-request Sat May 7 08:10:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 7 May 1994 08:10:07 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06763 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 6 May 1994 23:09:59 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA02515 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 May 1994 23:09:58 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 23:09:58 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405070609.AA02515@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, skeezix@io.org Subject: Re: Crossfire on free unices Status: RO Crossfire still uses floats for quite a bit of stuff. That will probably change - at least somewhat. I don't think floats will ever be complete removed, because they still make the coding easier, and if they did not exist, they would need to be emulated (ie, divide integer by 1000). While this may be better on machines that lack fpu support, I don't know if it would be faster on machines that can do fast floating point, and could be slower. What is going to be done is more in trying to reduce the number of operations that need to be done each time around - isntead of adding a float to a float for each active object each tick, it will be arranged so that integer comparissons are done, and the float is used when the object actually moves. --Mark From crossfire-request Sat May 7 07:56:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 7 May 1994 07:56:35 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06310 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 6 May 1994 22:56:25 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA01990 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 May 1994 22:56:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 22:56:23 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405070556.AA01990@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, tvangod@ecst.csuchico.edu Subject: Re: the new maps Status: RO Yes, the new maps are not what I would call 'great' maps. But at the same time, there really isn't anything (via mapguide document) that makes them bad maps. So they are more mediocre maps. I played the maps, and for most of them, did not think the treasure was really excessive (cd maps might be a little more so, with most of the 2nd level towers having lower level monsters). One thing I try to fix (and people should keep in mind) is to make treasures random. Don't put fixed rings or potions in place. With random treasure, how good the treasure is will be affected by the difficulty of the monsters. So a bunch of chests with low level monsters is not quite so bad, because most of the stuff will be junk. I would like maps that are not the mindless killing of monsters. But I have gotten very few new maps to put in - those maps were from and old distribution (0.90.0 I think). As a player, I have pretty much completed most every map. As a player, going through the same maps over and over again gets quite boring. I know that other people have also requested more maps. So I added some more in. The real problem is what is considered proper reward for treasure. For example, I did not think that killing a titan in order to get an artifact was unreasonable. IF you can kill a titan, you probably already have artifacts. IF someone can come up with good treasure values for monster numbers/ difficulty, it would make it much easier to adjust the difficulty of maps. The problem I have is that in order to gauge things properly, a character of the appropriate level is needed. For example, a 10'th level character can easily kill a bunch of gnolls or madman or whatever is in the second level of the cd maps, but at the same time, most of that treasure is meaningless. Maybe at 4'th level, it is a good challenge, and then by playing that level character, you could see if that treasure is reasonable. As for monster mixing: There really are not any guidelines. Wyverns and giants seem to be a very popular mix, even though the giants could be killed by the wyverns fire. Undead with undead is reasonable. A titan with most anything of lesser powerful could be seen as reasonable (other monsters are the titans servants/pets). I do agree that tougher monsters are better than lots of monster. In the later case, spell casters have a high advantage, as they can kill large numbers of monsters with spells, where as that barbarian has to hack through them one by one. I would be interested in seeing/getting the modified maps, to see why (what) you have changed Tyler. --Mark From crossfire-request Sat May 7 05:30:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 7 May 1994 05:30:15 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id UAA24363 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Fri, 6 May 1994 20:30:13 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405070330.UAA24363@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: the new maps To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 20:30:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1049 Status: RO uhm.....I just spent about 2 hours removing treasure from the new maps.... very very very very scummy.....yuk! Not to bash the creators....but I think the newest maps are kinda an example of what NOT...to do. They are cool because there are lots of levels to explore...but when you can grab 18 chests without killing a thing...that is bad. It looks to me that these maps were create many many moons ago...and at that time....18 chests really wasnt that much...but now...in the newer versions.. this kinda makes the game unbalanced.... It would also be nice to see more talking monsters.....a theme behind the maps...currently......its just mindless killing... Try to add puzzles.....quests.....and instead of putting 10 million monsters in the same room...try just using the editor to Tweak the hell out of there stats. It would really be nice to know why a Dread is hanging around with 4 skulls, a titan, and a couple devils... :> Would these creatures get along? :> Tyler. The maps I am referring to are Magara, cd, and esben. From crossfire-request Fri May 6 23:46:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 23:46:51 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA04556; Fri, 6 May 94 17:46:05 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA14891; Fri, 6 May 94 17:48:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 May 94 17:48:00 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405062148.AA14891@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Please help -- Problems compiling on SGI content-length: 1258 Status: RO Having successfully compiled crossfire-0.90.{0,1,2,3,4}, I run crossfire on an SGI running IRIX 4.0.5H. Starting with 0.90.5 and again with 0.90.1 I ran into this problem: cc -ansi -prototypes -cckr -float -I/usr/include -I../include -DSYSV -DMALLOC_0_RETURNS_NULL -DFUNCPROTO -DNARROWPROTO -DFONTDIR=\"/taz/jimdipalma/personal/crossfire/crossfire-0.91.0/fonts\" -DFONTNAME=\"crossfire\" -Dsgi -DLIBDIR=\"/taz/jim ccom: Error: object.c, line 374: syntax error (void) memcpy((void *)((char *) op +offsetof(object,name)), ----------------------------------------------------^ Note that this is being compiled using Kernighan and Ritchie C, but also occurs when I compile using the -ansi or -xansi flags (-cckr overrides -ansi above). Ansi compiles of crossfire have produced many warnings of duplicate symbols and an executable that does not allow characters to move. I also have trouble getting '-DLONGJUMP -DXpm_Pix' into my compiles, but added $(EXTRA_DEFINES) to DEFINES in crossfire.tmpl, server/Imakefile, and client/Imakefile. Other problems using the Imakefiles on IRIX will be enumerated once I reconfirm them for 0.90.1 (ie. Concat, MakeDir, and NullParameter). Thanks to all who send compiling suggestions, -jim From crossfire-request Fri May 6 22:30:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from io.org (root@io.org [142.77.27.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 22:30:30 +0200 Received: from r-node.io.org by io.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0pzWXR-000tz9C; Fri, 6 May 94 16:30 WET DST Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 16:30:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Mitchell Subject: Crossfire on free unices To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405060745.4598.bera.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO I run FreeBSD 1.1, a free BSD port to Intel architectures (along thelines of NetBSD and BSDi). I had crossfire going about a year ago, and it was brutally slow (likelty due to floating point emulation being pathetic). I'm wondering if anyone ever made most of the FP operations into Integers (whoulsn't be too hard) - and would make it muich faster (I should think, anyway) Or has it been ported to FreeBSD already, by any chance? Jeff SLvH | "need you; dream you; find you; taste you; fuck you; Jeff Mitchell | use you; scar you; break you; lose me; hate me; skeezix@io.org | smash me; erase me." - "eraser", Trent Reznor (NIN) From crossfire-request Fri May 6 19:26:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 19:26:54 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id KAA16767; Fri, 6 May 1994 10:26:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:26:41 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405061726.KAA16767@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, rgg@aaii.oz.au Subject: Re: Adding new spells ... Status: RO More on this iceball spell: How about a generalized 'ball' spell, which you can use to cast: a ball of which behaves just like a large fireball? you'd use it like this: cast magic ball of fire cast magic ball of lightning cast magic ball of holy word cast magic ball of cold This is made possible by some string-interpretation code added by ERic Mehlhafff and me here @ berkeley. BTW, rgg has the correct approach for adding new spells. FOr help with the spell paramaters, you should look in doc/spell_params.doc I describe there what the level dependencies are and what to do with them. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Fri May 6 19:02:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 19:02:33 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 6 May 1994 19:02:32 +0200 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 19:02:32 +0200 Message-Id: <199405061702.16024.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: Simon McIntosh-Smith's message of Fri, 6 May 94 16:27:17 BST <9405061527.AA01090@aquamarine.cm.cf.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO It's simple really. A fireborn can do fire damage, but it isn't magic, it is intrinsic to its nature. So an ice dragon which is immune to magic would still be vulnerable to real fire. Kjetil T. From crossfire-request Fri May 6 17:28:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 17:28:03 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <08310-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Fri, 6 May 1994 16:27:20 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 May 94 16:27:17 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405061527.AA01090@aquamarine.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Monster Protection Status: RO > Can someone please email me and explain what immunity to magical means > (I.e. Is the only way to kill that monster via physical attacks??). > Thanks > A fellow crossfire player. I know this guy and I know that he's confused by the fact that in the Postscript spoilers a lot of monsters (eg Skulls) are detailed as being immune to magical and other things that are also magical. In the skull case, they are immune to magical AND fire, cold, fear etc. What is the difference? If you are immune to magical (which I take as immune to spell effects) then you are already immune to fire, cold, fear and all the other spell effects? I'm confused too, can someone explain!? Thanks, Sy PS for those of you on the Web, our web server at Cardiff has been nominated as one of the best overall WWW sites, as well as one of the best entertainment sites! We are really excited about this! If any of you have been to our web server and used the online Crossfire spoilers etc, and would like to vote for us, visit the awards pages, URL: http://wings.buffalo.edu:/contest/ to find out how to vote, and to see who else has been nominated. Come and have a look at all the different stuff on our server (on-line searchable movie database, video game information, crossfire spoilers, searchable bibliographies, course lecture notes, interactive games, ... :-) Here's the URL: http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/ have fun! Simon N. McIntosh-Smith, PhD candidate | Email : Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk Room M/1.36 Department of Computing Maths | Phone : +44 (0)222 874000 University of Wales, College of Cardiff | Fax : +44 (0)222 666182 PO Box 916, Cardiff, Wales, CF2 4YN, U.K. | Home : +44 (0)222 560522 Http : http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/People/Simon.Smith.html From crossfire-request Fri May 6 16:41:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 16:41:11 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <03617-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Fri, 6 May 1994 15:40:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 May 94 15:40:22 BST From: L T Mulheron Message-Id: <9405061440.AA07882@sentinel.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Monster Protection Status: RO Hi there, Can someone please email me and explain what immunity to magical means (I.e. Is the only way to kill that monster via physical attacks??). Thanks A fellow crossfire player. From crossfire-request Fri May 6 13:27:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from atuk.aspentec.com (rouge.atuk.aspentec.com [192.160.185.48]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 13:27:20 +0200 Received: by atuk.aspentec.com (MX V3.3 VAX) id 22028; Fri, 06 May 1994 12:26:12 GMT Date: Fri, 06 May 1994 12:26:26 GMT From: "Sam Mackrill : AspenTech UK" To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no CC: mackrill@atuk.aspentec.com Message-ID: <0097E063.994B1516.22028@atuk.aspentec.com> Subject: Compiling under AIX Status: RO Procedure for compiling CrossFire under AIX =========================================== AIX 3.2 X11R4 cc = IBM AIX XL C Compiler/6000 1. edit config/crossfire.cf change line 36 :- from #include to #include "../config/crosssite.def" 2. edit include/libproto.h and include/sproto.h remove lines :- #if __STDC__ #endif 3. edit include/loader.h remove line 64 :- extern char *variable_const[NR_OF_VARIABLES]; 4. edit the Imakefile remove crossedit from the SUBDIRS list on line 31 (There should be a swith for the X11 version or crossedit should be on the end of the list) The "make World" will fail when making in lib but don't worry it doesn't seem to matter From crossfire-request Fri May 6 13:17:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 13:17:29 +0200 Received: from dancer.Dartmouth.EDU by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id HAA03415; Fri, 6 May 1994 07:17:22 -0400 Message-id: <3672881@dancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 06 May 94 07:17:19 EDT From: Preston.F.Crow@Dartmouth.EDU (Preston F. Crow) Reply-To: preston.crow@dancer.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Crossfire 0.91.0 released To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO I'm having trouble compiling it under Ultrix 4.3. I'm getting complaints about MAXNAMLEN undefined, but I think that's a problem with confusion over using gcc vs. regular include files. (That's with crossedit.) More seriously, crossfire won't link: strdup() is undefined. I've seen that on other programs developed on Suns--strdup() is NOT a standard function. It does not exist on Ultrix, NeXT, and some other systems. --PC From crossfire-request Fri May 6 08:49:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 08:49:16 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA21591; Fri, 6 May 1994 16:47:42 +1000 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 16:47:42 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405060647.AA21591@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Adding new spells ... Status: RO > Hello, > I want to add a new type of spell (just to my local crossfire, I don't > intend this to become part of the "standard" game), but I'm not sure > exactly what needs to be changed. > I've added it to the "spells" array in spellist.h, added one to > NROFREALSPELLS in define.h, added an enum to spellnrs in spells.h, > and I'm trying to work out how to change spells.c now. > (I've also added an entry in LIB/spell_params). > > The spell I'm trying to create is "Large Iceball" (an ice equivalent of > large fireball) - is there some documentation on adding spells ? > (if not, there *should* be - changing 5 files to add 1 spell ! Sheesh) > You're doing fine so far. Don't forget to add a line to SP_PARAMETERS in spellist.h. In spells.c in the function cast_spell() (around about line 217) there is a big switch statement that deals with every spell. Add your SP_L_ICEBALL in there (probably group it with the fireball spells as fire_arch() should produce the effect you want). You will probably also have to add an archetype like "icebullet" and "iceball" (to make things easier for yourself make sure the types are FBULLET and FBALL). The best way to do it is to walk through the code for a fireball spell and understand how the spell effect is produced by the firebullet being created by fire_arch(), how the firebullet object gets moved by apply(), and how it gets transformed in a fireball object and how the fireball expands in explosion(). It is a bit confusing at first because objects are created by spells and their effect occurs much later after the objects have 'acted', so you have to jump around the code alot. Making a spell like Iceball is a good one to start with as you can make it a variant of Fireball. IMHO archetypes are one the best features of Crossfire, they lead to so much generalization. Rupert From crossfire-request Fri May 6 07:42:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au (thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.44.113]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 07:42:48 +0200 Received: by thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au (5.64+1.3.1+0.50/UA-5.19) id AA17243; Fri, 6 May 1994 15:12:12 +0930 From: David Cook Message-Id: <9405060542.AA17243@thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Adding new spells ... To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 15:12:11 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 903 Status: RO Hello, I want to add a new type of spell (just to my local crossfire, I don't intend this to become part of the "standard" game), but I'm not sure exactly what needs to be changed. I've added it to the "spells" array in spellist.h, added one to NROFREALSPELLS in define.h, added an enum to spellnrs in spells.h, and I'm trying to work out how to change spells.c now. (I've also added an entry in LIB/spell_params). The spell I'm trying to create is "Large Iceball" (an ice equivalent of large fireball) - is there some documentation on adding spells ? (if not, there *should* be - changing 5 files to add 1 spell ! Sheesh) Bye, David T Cook e-mail: dcook@spam.adelaide.edu.au Phone: +61 8 303 5709 Assistant Computer Manager, Stats, Pure and Applied Maths, Adelaide Uni. "Behind the lines, a face that glimmers. Still looking for a face that shines." - Heartland, The Sisters of Mercy From owner-crossfire Thu May 5 19:53:28 1994 Return-Path: <<@isg-200.dfki.uni-kl.de:elsbernd@dfki.uni-kl.de>> Received: from uni-kl.de (stepsun.uni-kl.de [131.246.136.50]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 5 May 1994 19:53:25 +0200 Received: from isg-200.dfki.uni-kl.de by stepsun.uni-kl.de id aa14763; 5 May 94 19:52 MET DST Received: from dfki.uni-kl.de (isg-201 [131.246.241.71]) by dfki.uni-kl.de (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA22455 for ; Thu, 5 May 1994 19:52:48 +0200 Message-Id: <199405051752.TAA22455@dfki.uni-kl.de> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Subject: recipients Date: Thu, 05 May 1994 19:52:44 +0200 From: Klaus Elsbernd Status: RO MfG Klaus From crossfire-request Wed May 4 19:47:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 4 May 1994 19:47:07 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA26461; Wed, 4 May 1994 10:46:43 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405041746.KAA26461@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: binaries wanted To: fhi1053@rzbox.uni-wuerzburg.d400.de (Roemisch Volker) Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405041148.AA26250@wrzx13.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de> from "Roemisch Volker" at May 4, 94 01:48:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 257 Status: RO > > I have problems to compile crossfire on a > HP-UX A.09.01 E 9000/755 > can anyone mail me the compiled binaries for this type of > machine? > Many thanx from > Nightcrawler > > yes, what do you need? the server, crossedit and crossclient? t. From crossfire-request Wed May 4 14:07:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 4 May 1994 14:07:25 +0200 X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Wed, 4 May 1994 13:51:06 +0200 X400-Received: by /PRMD=uni-wuerzburg/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Wed, 4 May 1994 13:48:23 +0200 Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 13:48:23 +0200 X400-Originator: fhi1053@rzbox.uni-wuerzburg.d400.de X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=uni-wuerzburg/ADMD=d400/C=de/;768052105@wrzx01.rz.uni-wuerzbur] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: binaries wanted From: Roemisch Volker Message-ID: <9405041148.AA26250@wrzx13.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: binaries wanted Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Status: RO I have problems to compile crossfire on a HP-UX A.09.01 E 9000/755 can anyone mail me the compiled binaries for this type of machine? Many thanx from Nightcrawler From crossfire-request Mon May 2 14:25:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from Princeton.EDU (root@Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 2 May 1994 14:25:05 +0200 Received: from cedman.remote.Princeton.EDU by Princeton.EDU (5.65b/2.110/princeton) id AA28298; Mon, 2 May 94 08:24:54 -0400 Received: by capitalist.princeton.edu (NX5.67e/1.113) id AA11115; Mon, 2 May 94 08:24:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 May 94 08:24:30 -0400 From: "Carl Edman" Message-Id: <9405021224.AA11115@capitalist.princeton.edu> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: yet another mailing list? Reply-To: cedman@Princeton.EDU Status: RO Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > Speaking of which: Carl, is a second draft coming? Do we have team > willing to do work on it? Mark, what are your release plans? Yes, the second draft is mostly written and I'll soon be able to devote all my time to discussions on the list again now that I've finally pushed Emacs for NeXTstep out of the door (and dealt with most of the following mail avalanche), and I won't have to teach any more classes for another four months or so. Carl Edman From crossfire-request Sun May 1 23:47:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from menja.ifi.uio.no (1232@menja.ifi.uio.no [129.240.82.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Sun, 1 May 1994 23:47:31 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by menja.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 1 May 1994 23:47:30 +0200 Date: Sun, 1 May 1994 23:47:30 +0200 Message-Id: <199405012147.10693.menja.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: av5410@sjfc.edu CC: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: Alex Villamil's message of Sun, 1 May 1994 13:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: unsubscribe Status: RO The correct address for administrative messages (like subscribing and unsubscribing) is . I tell you this in the welcoming message. I've never had a subscribe request to the wrong address -- why is unsubscribe so difficult? When I see such messages posted to the discussion list, I usually send a note that the wrong address was used, and wait for a message to the request address. Another plea while I'm at it: When you lose your account, remember to tell me first. I often get a dozen or more messages because of faulty addresses on a list. _You_ can help me. Of course, the majority really are good netizens, thanks! I'll include the whole standard welcome message, the old-timers don't know what it looks like. ---------- cut here ----- cut here ---------- Hi, welcome to the list! You are now subscribed to both the crossfire discussion list and crossfire-announce (reserved for announcing new public releases of Crossfire). Submissions should be sent to "crossfire@ifi.uio.no", administrative messages to "crossfire-request@ifi.uio.no". Since I maintain the list by hand, you may not get immediate response. If you find the volume on the discussion list too high, you might want to subscribe to the announcements list only. If so, mention this in the unsubscribe message. When you send a mail to the list, you may get "bounce mail". This means that one of the members of the list has problems with his/her mail. If you get a copy of your mail back from the list, you can safely ignore them. Crossfire files are available via FTP from the following sites: Europe: ftp.ifi.uio.no (129.240.64.2) USA: ftp.world.net (192.243.32.18) Oceania: yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (130.194.9.1) An introduction to Crossfire can be obtained via WWW, http://www.ifi.uio.no/~frankj/crossfire/ This is still under construction. ---------- cut here ----- cut here ---------- Kjetil T. (list admin) From crossfire-request Tue May 17 08:03:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from idiom.berkeley.ca.us (idiom.berkeley.ca.us [140.174.82.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 17 May 1994 08:02:57 +0200 Received: (from jason@localhost) by idiom.berkeley.ca.us (8.6.8/8.6.6) id XAA04714; Mon, 16 May 1994 23:02:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 23:02:52 -0700 From: Jason Venner Message-Id: <199405170602.XAA04714@idiom.berkeley.ca.us> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: How to play question Cc: jason@idiom.berkeley.ca.us Status: RO 1: boulders is there a way to destroy them much of the old city seems to be blocked by boulders that I can not move. 2: altars, how do you use them? I have tried dropping things in the same square they are on, but nothing ever happens Thanks From crossfire-request Tue May 17 03:08:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 17 May 1994 03:07:59 +0200 Received: from dancer.Dartmouth.EDU by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id VAA15626; Mon, 16 May 1994 21:07:46 -0400 Message-id: <4028001@dancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 16 May 94 21:07:36 EDT From: Preston.F.Crow@Dartmouth.EDU (Preston F. Crow) Reply-To: preston.crow@dancer.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: CF: spell: bombs To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO >Right... bomb should just automatically drop itself from whatever is >carrying it, before it explodes. Then everyone can share the fun :-) Hmm. If a bomb went off in my inventory, it just might blow up other items that I was carrying. Talk about devistation! Also, I recently (0.91.0) had a rust monster splash acid on the luggage that I was carrying. Now it's "magic -3" in the save file, and the value seems to have gone down. Is there any real effect? I guess I shouldn't walk around with open containers (I didn't mean to, honest!). --PC From crossfire-request Tue May 17 02:43:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 17 May 1994 02:43:07 +0200 Received: (philb@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id RAA15933 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Mon, 16 May 1994 17:42:53 -0700 From: Philip Brown Message-Id: <199405170042.RAA15933@soda.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: spell: bombs To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no (Crossfire Mailing List) Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 17:42:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199405162125.OAA22982@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 16, 94 02:25:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL5] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 259 Status: RO >>>>[From Peter Mardahl] It should be very simple to make sure the bomb is dropped before it explodes. Right... bomb should just automatically drop itself from whatever is carrying it, before it explodes. Then everyone can share the fun :-) From crossfire-request Mon May 16 23:26:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 16 May 1994 23:26:37 +0200 Received: from dancer.Dartmouth.EDU by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id RAA24775; Mon, 16 May 1994 17:26:30 -0400 Message-id: <4021160@dancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 16 May 94 17:26:20 EDT From: Preston.F.Crow@Dartmouth.EDU (Preston F. Crow) Reply-To: preston.crow@dancer.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: CF: spell: bombs To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO I've noticed that in DM mode, a lot of items will crash the server. (At least in an older version, I haven't tried it recently.) Try picking up a fireball wall or something like that. I'm not sure about generators, though monsters work fine. Also, I've noticed a bug with stat-spells: I use all my negative-charisma items, cast some charisma spells, and switch to positive charisma items. The point is that the stat spells add to the stat based on the modified value, not the permanent value. (Note that this is a potential positive use of cursed rings, once you remove-curse them.) --PC From crossfire-request Mon May 16 23:25:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Mon, 16 May 1994 23:25:33 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id OAA22982; Mon, 16 May 1994 14:25:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 14:25:22 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405162125.OAA22982@soda.berkeley.edu> To: haavarl@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: spell: bombs Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO Is the bomb bug not fixed yet? *sigh* I thought that someone had fixed that a long time ago. It should be very simple to make sure the bomb is dropped before it explodes. Another thing on the todo list. Let me know if anyone fixes it, i won't get to it for a while. PeterM From crossfire-request Mon May 16 22:51:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from yrsa.ifi.uio.no (haavarl@yrsa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.104.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 16 May 1994 22:51:11 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Lindheim?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from haavarl@localhost) by yrsa.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 16 May 1994 22:51:10 +0200 Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 22:51:09 +0200 To: crossfire Subject: spell: bombs Message-ID: Status: RO The BOMB spell is if course quite funny. But, with a little imagitative use, it could crash the game. It is rather funny to pick up a bomb and deliver it next to a monster, but if you carry it long enough it explodes and thus crashes the game. The bombs should perhaps have no_pick, or even better: Function as the cursed potions - detonate a large fireball at yourself. Or possibly "detonate bomb on self". H-- From crossfire-request Mon May 16 00:20:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 16 May 1994 00:20:33 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id PAA02716; Sun, 15 May 1994 15:20:28 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 15:20:28 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405152220.PAA02716@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, fermat@fermat.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: CF: Cursed potions of resist fire. Status: RO If you are permanently vulnerable to fire: either your character file is corrupted: ask your dm-dude to fix it or you are playing a wraith, who are vulnerable fire and protected or immune cold to begin with, and area always so Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Sun May 15 22:05:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 15 May 1994 22:05:05 +0200 Received: from fermat.dartmouth.edu by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id QAA25656; Sun, 15 May 1994 16:05:03 -0400 Received: by fermat.dartmouth.edu (NX5.67d/NX3.0S) id AA17982; Sun, 15 May 94 16:02:30 -0400 From: Michael Glenn Message-Id: <9405152002.AA17982@fermat.dartmouth.edu> Subject: CF: Cursed potions of resist fire. To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 16:02:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 480 Status: RO I just cast a preceive self on myself, and found that I am vulnerable to fire. I can only think that the cursed potion of resist fire I drank about three weeks ago is *still* in effect. Are those things permanent? I just hit a wrong button (tried to enter a door and instead drank the potion I had just dropped). I have tried removing curse, removing damnation, scrolls of restoration... Nothing works. Is this a bug or is there a way to remove this? Thanks much. Michael From owner-crossfire Fri May 13 20:29:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 13 May 1994 20:29:12 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA07624 for crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no; Fri, 13 May 1994 11:29:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 11:29:06 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405131829.LAA07624@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Subject: earth elementals Status: RO About earth elementals: they start at 280 hp. This from the Archetype! They gain 10 hp per level of the caster. It is a fifth level spell. So an 11th level person summoning an earth elemental would get a 340hp earth elemental. Additionally, the earth elemental gains 2hp damage per level of the caster. And does a hefty 50hp base damage. An eleventh level character would do 50 + 12 = 62 points per hit. Earth elementals are rather slow, however.... so it's not hitting as often as a character. It's weapon class does not improve i think, either. The level dependency doesn't improve the basic earth elemental *that* much, for an 11th level character. (He also pays for the increased monster strength with more spellpoints if the server has SPELLPOINT_LEVEL_DEPEND defined). I guess that earth elementals are simply well-suited to destroying dreads! I have always found earth elementals rather tough. Perhaps the summoning of them should be a higher level spell. I do not think the level dependencies are excessive, but i'll go with the majority if people feel that it is. Regards, PeterM --LAA07296.768853608/soda.berkeley.edu-- From crossfire-request Fri May 13 13:41:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (haatanen@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 13 May 1994 13:41:20 +0200 Received: (from haatanen@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id OAA29845; Fri, 13 May 1994 14:41:17 +0300 (for crossfire@ifi.uio.no) From: Tero Haatanen Message-Id: <199405131141.OAA29845@cc.lut.fi> Subject: Re: bag bug To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 14:41:17 +0300 (EETDST) In-Reply-To: <9405121929.AA03091@taz> from "Jim Dipalma" at May 12, 94 10:29:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 644 Status: RO > I was told that this bug occurs, but when I tried to duplicate it > using a backpack, I found that excess items get put into regular > inventory. I had same problem that you. There is a bug with the bags and pickup but it occurs only if you walk around with _open_ bag, not just _active_. Walking around with the open bag doesn't make sense, but it's not probably any reason to forbit it (or is there?). The original bug report was just a little unclear. I just sent patch to Mark which fixes it. > Are bags and backpacks in some way different? They should all be same (bags, backpacks, luggages, deposit boxes and so on..). -Tero From crossfire-request Thu May 12 21:27:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 12 May 1994 21:27:54 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA05329; Thu, 12 May 94 15:27:08 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA03091; Thu, 12 May 94 15:29:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 May 94 15:29:04 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405121929.AA03091@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: bag bug content-length: 195 Status: RO I was told that this bug occurs, but when I tried to duplicate it using a backpack, I found that excess items get put into regular inventory. Are bags and backpacks in some way different? jim From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:39:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dme.nt.gov.au (adit.dme.nt.gov.au [155.205.3.15]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:39:04 +0200 Received: from golem.dme.nt.gov.au by dme.nt.gov.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03531; Thu, 26 May 94 13:08:56 CST Received: from daml.dme by golem.dme.nt.gov.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20995; Thu, 26 May 94 13:08:52 CST Received: by daml.dme (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA00588; Thu, 26 May 1994 13:09:43 --9-30 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 13:09:43 --9-30 From: daml@dme.nt.gov.au (Damien Lunsford 61-89-895257) Message-Id: <9405260339.AA00588@daml.dme> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Multi vs single X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 2461 Status: RO > From crossfire-request@ifi.uio.no Thu May 26 13:06:27 1994 > From: David Cook > Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis > To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no > Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 12:53:37 +0930 (CST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Length: 1758 > > > > > > > From: KARIM SANJABI > > > > > > > > > > > I really believe that xfire should be designed around a group, > > > > multi user idea. > > > > > > > > Karim > > > > > > > While I think there should be lots of effort put into making Crossfire > > > a good multi-player game, I do not think we should abandon the solo > > > player. For various reasons people can't always play multi-player. I much > > > prefer playing multi-player, but there are often times when it simply > > > isn't possible, so I want to be able to play and enjoy Crossfire solo. > > > Certainly it should be more difficult playing solo, but it shouldn't be > > > impossible. > > > > > > Rupert > > > > I don't agree with this a lot. Crossfire should be mainly a multiplayer > > game. The single player capability could be limited to something like > > playing a MUD alone. If you want to play Crossfire-like games alone, > > why not play Nethack, Ultima, Omega etc...? > > Because Crossfire is a _different_ game to all of those, and (in some ways) > better (mostly appearance). > When I buy a PC (to run Linux on, of course) I intend to get Crossfire for > it, but it will *never* have more than one player on it, so I still want > the game playable for solo players - this means that my mage should still > be able to fight, and my fighter should still be able to cast spells. > In other words, at the beginning, perhaps, classes may be distinct, but > at the higher levels, it should still be _possible_ to do _anything_. > > > > > -Sven > > > > David T Cook e-mail: dcook@spam.adelaide.edu.au Phone: +61 8 303 5709 > Assistant Computer Manager, Stats, Pure and Applied Maths, Adelaide Uni. > "Behind the lines, a face that glimmers. Still looking for a face that shines." > - Heartland, The Sisters of Mercy If there is a great demand for both then we should cater for both. All you would do is either have two versions that have to be compiled or you have a file which you can define if the game is one or two players. Cheers, Damien From crossfire-request Thu May 26 14:39:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 14:39:30 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <17818-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Thu, 26 May 1994 13:38:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 May 94 13:38:43 BST From: L T Mulheron Message-Id: <9405261238.AA08496@sentinel.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Enchant Scrolls Again! Status: RO Hi, I've read all the recent mail about the Enchant scrolls but I still can't get them to work. I've placed the correct amounts of booze and food on the floor. But when I try to prepare the non-magical weapon it replies that the weapon needs to be the first item in my inventory which is a bit odd as I was only carrying the weapon and the scroll at the time (and of course loads of diamonds) with the weapon at the top of my inventory. I've tried all sorts of different combinations with the weapon wielded/unwielded and one , two or all three of the items on the ground but nothing seems to work. Can someone please help as these scrolls are getting a tad frustrating. From crossfire-request Thu May 26 12:58:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from db.erau.edu (db.erau.edu [155.31.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 12:58:57 +0200 Received: from erau.db.erau.edu by db.erau.edu with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0q6dAV-0007wPC; Thu, 26 May 94 07:00 EDT Received: by erau.db.erau.edu (4.1/client/jimberau-1.0) id AA02342; Thu, 26 May 94 07:02:00 EDT Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 06:58:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Judkins Subject: Re: Abuse of Gravestones To: Mark Wedel Cc: Tero.Haatanen@lut.fi, crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405260347.AA19669@bolero.rahul.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 25 May 1994, Mark Wedel wrote: > So how do you detect cases where casting a spell (and killing another > player) is an accident, compared to doing it on purpose? The players > can usually tell, but to actually program in code to detect becomes a bit > more difficult. > > The best solution is just to state that player killing other players will > not be tolerated. > > --Mark But part of the fun of x-fire is that you and a friend can go around beating the hell out of each other. Killing people is not tolerated in society but it still happens. I think just saying you can't do that takes some of the fun out. How about the idea that you can not harm a character X levels below you? That way, if players decide to go after each other, they'll be more evenly matched. +============================+==============================+ | This message courtesy of: | You bore me to death | | | So shut up for God's sake | | Jeff Judkins | Stop reading me the riot act | | judkinsj@erau.db.erau.edu | While my brains still intact | +============================+==============================+ Kill'em all and then just let God sort out the mess. From crossfire-request Thu May 26 10:38:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 10:37:57 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA04009; Thu, 26 May 1994 18:36:38 +1000 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 18:36:38 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405260836.AA04009@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) Status: RO > I think this re-writing needs to be done. I'd be happy to play the current > version for 4 or 5 months while all this re-writing was going on. I think > a major spring-clean needs to be done at some point, and this does seem > like the ideal opportunity to start all this, as several people have pointed > out now. In fact, it's getting quite tiring having to update our local software > once every two weeks, as I have to do at the moment :-) > > Sy > The fact that new versions are coming out every few weeks is a good reason for not doing a major rewrite. At the moment lots of people are putting in lots of creative energy in adding new features. Until that slows down it is not worth doing a rewrite because the code will have to be frozen or else the rewritten version will come out and several months worth of new features will have to be added in some how. A rewrite is also a major task. It would have to be done by a number of very committed people who know what they are doing. Unless the crossfire code is totally unmanageable ( and I don't think it is ) I don't think there is much value in doing a total rewrite. Rupert From crossfire-request Thu May 26 10:16:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 10:16:04 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <29663-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Thu, 26 May 1994 09:15:35 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 May 94 09:15:32 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405260815.AA26123@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Status: RO > Mark Wedel wrote: > I don't know if I am willing to put that much work into separating > everything out. It would be a pretty substantial project. In fact, it > would probably be a major re-write of a lot of the code. Then Scott MacFiggen wrote: > I too agree that game mechanics should be separated from the > game engine. Here is how I see it. The game up to this point has > consisted of alot of people hacking little parts of the code. This has > caused the code to become messy and big. The game would benefit greatly > if someone sat down and did alot of spring cleaning. If we decide to > implement ERic's idea then cleaning up the code could happen in parallel. > It all comes down to how devoted everybody is to making a good game. Do > we want to just hack what we have and release it or do we want to do the > best job we can. Summer just started so this would be a good time to begin > a major project. I think this re-writing needs to be done. I'd be happy to play the current version for 4 or 5 months while all this re-writing was going on. I think a major spring-clean needs to be done at some point, and this does seem like the ideal opportunity to start all this, as several people have pointed out now. In fact, it's getting quite tiring having to update our local software once every two weeks, as I have to do at the moment :-) Sy From crossfire-request Thu May 26 07:15:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 07:15:38 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id WAA06778; Wed, 25 May 1994 22:15:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199405260515.WAA06778@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Mark Wedel cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: What about THIEVES? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 1994 21:01:31 PDT." <199405260401.AA20592@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 22:15:30 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405260401.AA20592@bolero.rahul.net>, Mark Wedel writes: > A few thoughts. > > There should probably be a search command (with the key binding >code, you could bind it to a single key). The implicit command would search >that object/area. There should also be a serach movement mode, which >lowers the players movement speed, and which has a lesser chance of >finding the various traps. I like these ideas, they're certainly viable. I had imagined 'searching' to be a very directed thing, which is why i wanted it to be a range-attack. Also, i figured it would be something that one would want to repeat a lot, which is why i wanted to make it bound to a direction key.... Searching in every direction at once when the command is given is certainly fine with me. I have absolutely no objection. > > I also don't see why things like disarm/pick lock/backstab/pickpocket >need to be range commands. No objection to that either. Sounds like a better idea to me. Probably easier, as well. I'll do it this way if/when I do it. I'm still hoping someone will do it for me. :) > Generic Note: Try a 'help bind' sometime. You can bind things so >that F1, shift-F1 and control-F1 do different things. I find this >very handy for setting up related spells (R2 is detect magic, S-R2 is >detect curse, and C-R2 is identify. All the spells I need when I bring >back items. I do something similar for R1, being cure confusion, cure >poison, and heal). This could easily be done for theif actions. In general I prefer to bind spells to actual keys, I find this more mnemnonic (sp?). > Also, backstab could just be something done whenever you are behind a >monster and attack it. This makes more sense than my proposal. Sounds good. > I do agree that all those changes would be a good idea. yes, thanks for the helpful suggestions about implementation. > I think it would also be nice to have chests that are never trapped, and >some that are always trap, and a third random category. Same for doors. OK. The only thing is that this would require changes to maps. I wanted to install traps in such a way that all maps would have traps in them already, without any editing. Perhaps we can simply make the 'third random category' the chest archetype that currently exists. > The idea with doors is that in this way, if you go onto some maps, you >never know if it is safe to bash down a door or not. More randomness >in maps owuld be interesting. Maybe add an object 'random_monster'. The random_monster idea is certainly intriguing.... Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 26 07:05:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from crl2.crl.com (crl2.crl.com [165.113.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 07:05:32 +0200 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl2.crl.com with SMTP id AA25527 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 22:03:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199405260503.AA25527@crl2.crl.com> To: Ninja Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis In-Reply-To: Message from Ninja of Thu, 26 May 1994 14:49:22 +1200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 22:03:28 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Ninja recently wrote: >what? I think we should make it possible to play most of the game alone. >you won't always have people to team up with. > >we should not make multiplayer capability the best feature of crossfire, >rather something which adds something special to it While keeping crossfire multi-player would be cool, I think that we should look realistically at this. It just eats way too much cpu to really support a lot of players well, certainly not on the sale of the multi-scores of people on your typical MUD. Basically, on a MUD, they don't have all the tactical complexities, grapics, and sheer volume of MOBS that we have in crossfire. We're inherendly limited in number of players equivalent CPU can support. In that respect, then, the peak number of players is limited. With less players, its hard to get together a multi-player game. You sort of see this in netrek, which is why the netrek METASERVER came about -- to help the few players around find a game with players in it. Perhaps future possibility of something similar that should be looked into (wouldn't bee too hard, what with the crossfire telnet port already built in). If you lean too heavily toward the 'all multiplayer or nothing' approach, then your servers will start looking like netrek, either full, or completely empty, and rarely anything in between. The most players I've ever seen on a server was something like 8. Has anyone actually gone higher, in a realistic situation? Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Thu May 26 06:19:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from crl2.crl.com (crl2.crl.com [165.113.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 06:19:47 +0200 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl2.crl.com with SMTP id AA22441 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 21:17:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199405260417.AA22441@crl2.crl.com> To: Tero Haatanen Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: Abuse of Gravestones In-Reply-To: Message from Tero Haatanen of Wed, 25 May 1994 14:07:09 +0700 <199405251107.OAA28239@aino.it.lut.fi> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 21:17:56 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Tero Haatanen recently wrote: >The gravestone prices was meant to buying gravestones not selling >them. This means not using NOT_PERMANENT_DEATH, so that the dead player's >corpse can be buried to the graveyard (no-one haven't make a map yet >and I haven't had time to finish mine). You can change gravestone's >value by editing archetypes files. Look for Object gravestone and >change value to 0. Why not just set the 'value' for gravestones to be some intrinsic low value ( they are, after all, just nifty carved pieces of stone). If you want to make something special of them, give players experience points for bringing gravestones to the graveyard. Maybe even special 'quests' for bringing particular gravestones to a certain shrine... >No any easy solution to this problem. Tell players that is forbitten >or modify code. It's WAAAY to easy to kill players accidentally with magic, let alone intentionally. I'm not going to mention the time I 'oops'ed and chunged my character with a comet that bounced offa wall. REally, the problem here stems from the way monsters generally have significantly more hit points than players. The spells have to do a LOT of damage to even scratch the monsters, but heaven help that poor unfortunate player wanders into that fireball with 'only' 200 hit points.. Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Thu May 26 06:01:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 06:01:43 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA08958 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 21:01:31 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA20592 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 25 May 1994 21:01:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 21:01:31 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405260401.AA20592@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: What about THIEVES? Status: RO A few thoughts. There should probably be a search command (with the key binding code, you could bind it to a single key). The implicit command would search that object/area. There should also be a serach movement mode, which lowers the players movement speed, and which has a lesser chance of finding the various traps. I also don't see why things like disarm/pick lock/backstab/pickpocket need to be range commands. I find that cycling through the ranges is more of a pain than just double clicking on the item I want to activate (once to unequip, once to equip and set the range). Also, it would seem that things like disarm/pick lock/backstab/pickpocket would be used seldom enough that they really don't need to be range attacks, and should just be bound to keys. Generic Note: Try a 'help bind' sometime. You can bind things so that F1, shift-F1 and control-F1 do different things. I find this very handy for setting up related spells (R2 is detect magic, S-R2 is detect curse, and C-R2 is identify. All the spells I need when I bring back items. I do something similar for R1, being cure confusion, cure poison, and heal). This could easily be done for theif actions. Also, backstab could just be something done whenever you are behind a monster and attack it. I do agree that all those changes would be a good idea. I think it would also be nice to have chests that are never trapped, and some that are always trap, and a third random category. Same for doors. The idea with doors is that in this way, if you go onto some maps, you never know if it is safe to bash down a door or not. More randomness in maps owuld be interesting. Maybe add an object 'random_monster'. Actually, this would not be that hard to do. You could use a treasurelist to determine what monster gets created (just like treasure). In this way, sometimes you might wander on to a map and find it full of orcs, the next time, it oculd be full of ogres (use nrof in the treasure list to generate more than 1 of the same monster type..) --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:47:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:47:24 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA08468 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 20:47:21 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA19669 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 25 May 1994 20:47:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 20:47:19 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405260347.AA19669@bolero.rahul.net> To: Tero.Haatanen@lut.fi, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Abuse of Gravestones Status: RO I think it is next to impossible to prevent player killing via magic. The reason is this: If a character cast large fireball at some monsters, and it hits some players, those players should be injured (or perhaps killed). If they became immune to friendly magic, you could have a mage sitting behind some fighters, casting burning hands, lightning bolt, etc, and no one would be injured due to it. So how do you detect cases where casting a spell (and killing another player) is an accident, compared to doing it on purpose? The players can usually tell, but to actually program in code to detect becomes a bit more difficult. The best solution is just to state that player killing other players will not be tolerated. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:44:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:44:08 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA07732 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 20:44:00 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA19414 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 25 May 1994 20:43:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 20:43:59 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405260343.AA19414@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, dyessww@eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. Status: RO But a 10'th level fighter (even without armour, or wearing light armour) can kill low level monsters with spells pretty easily. Remember, if a first level mage (With no armour and very few hit points) is supposed to do it, then a 10'th level fighter, even if first level mage ability, should have an even easier time. Also, right now, the experience you get for killing a monster is adjusted based upon your level and its level (thus, a 10'th level character does not get as much exp for killing orcs as a first level character does (and alos needs more exp to advance levels)). In the 10'th level fighter practicing first level mage, does the first level mage get used for the adjustment on exp points? A while ago, someone said that they like crossfire because class/skills were not solely determined at character creation. Meaning that someone that starts as a fighter can become a mage. This is quite true. The problem is, that at some level, a character is pretty much every class, because he has raised his stats so that he is now good at every skill. Even if raising stats gets more difficult, this will still happen. I don't know if this is good or bad. I think what is going to half to happen is that the various class proposals get made, and then a vote is taken on which one to actually use. Having them selectable via #ifdef's in the code may be possible, but it depends on how wide the changes are to make for a new class systems. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:38:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:38:23 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA07296 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 20:38:04 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA19093 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 25 May 1994 20:38:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 20:38:03 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405260338.AA19093@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, ninja@comp.vuw.ac.nz Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis Status: RO I agree that allowing solo play is important. With client server, it may become easier to play on the various servers. Right now, over a 14.4 link, it is pretty slow. Maps that require multiple players are fine. Just make sure that there is a sign near the entrance stating multiple players are required. There is nothing more frustrating than spending an hour on a map, only to find you can't complete it alone. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:29:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:29:33 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id UAA29841 for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 20:29:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199405260329.UAA29841@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: What about THIEVES? Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 20:29:22 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO Okay. My 4-skill area proposal is all well and good. Believe it or not, folks, i think the coding needed for Fighters, Clerics, and Mages is pretty straightforward, except for the X stuff, which I am unfamiliar with and would need help on. But What About Thieves? As it is now, there is NO place for thieves in crossfire. Let's change this FIRST, before we even think about doing any 4-class thing. (I really love the idea, but it's too much to do all in one step, without the thief stuff done first.) I think EVERYONE will agree that crossfire would be much enriched by thiefly things being in the game. What i suggest below probably isn't controversial....so please.... HELP!!!!!! What needs doing: 1) a disarm/search/pick-lock/backstab/pickpocket range attack I envision this working this way: there would in fact be all of those new range attacks. Search would be the most commonly used. If a trap is found, the range attack automatically would change to 'disarm'. It might be a good idea to use separate keys to select and toggle this range attack. (the - key?) Pick-lock would be used on doors. backstab would be a critical attack which would ONLY work on monsters who were facing the other direction. STEALTH!!!! AND party coordination! Pickpocket is sort of obvious. Success should depend on level, player dex, player level. Searching should have a chance of detonating the trap. 2) Physical traps!!!! Any of you who have seen the cloaks know an example of my absolute best bitmap art. Sucks, huh? I'd like SOMEONE BETTER to please make some bitmaps for physical traps. The code support is already in the game for these.... Runes would make perfectly okay physical traps, they ONLY need faces and archetypes. Runes are well-documented! Please???? Physical traps are needed for thieves to disarm, so that they may gain experience. 3) Trapped chests! Every chest should have a chance of being trapped. Don't you think it'd be a barrel of laughs to be moseying around in a treasure chamber full of chests, and detonate a FIREBALL???? HAHAHAHA!!!! Traps' viciousness and damage should depend on dungeon-difficulty. 4) Trapped doors! It'd be real cool if you could be mindlessly banging on a door, and suddenly, it explodes into shards, shrapnelizing everyone around into hamburger? Gee, think that might inspire caution and prompt people to USE thieves? Regardless of whether we actually do the 4-skill area thing or not, these changes would be really cool. It's a major project, though. If no one loves this idea and is willing to do it, I will take it up. Timescales: My next few projects: 1) I'm finally going to generalize magic walls so that they can cast any spell at all. I promised this a long time ago, and I just forgot, but I'll do it now, if it isn't already done and I simply forgot doing it. ( by next week, prob.) 2) Tower of Demonology and Summoning: a map which actually uses the word-activated teleporters in an interesting way (by June 5th.) 3) june 5th to june 20th: vacation! OFF the net, AWAY from crossfire!!! 4) june21st come back, start work on the thief stuff. Hopefully by then, people will have made some faces for physical traps. Actually, I hope people will have done all four of the thigns I mentioned above! 5) After that gets done, (prob. 2 weeks or so later) I will begin work on the 4-skill area stuff, assuming there is support for it and I can talk some X-guru's into helping me with the display stuff that'll be needed. Regards, Peterm From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:24:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au (thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.44.113]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:24:21 +0200 Received: by thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au (5.64+1.3.1+0.50/UA-5.19) id AA01992; Thu, 26 May 1994 12:53:39 +0930 From: David Cook Message-Id: <9405260323.AA01992@thurso.maths.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 12:53:37 +0930 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9405252344.AA24956@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> from "Sven Neuhaus" at May 26, 94 01:44:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1758 Status: RO > > > > From: KARIM SANJABI > > > > > > > > I really believe that xfire should be designed around a group, > > > multi user idea. > > > > > > Karim > > > > > While I think there should be lots of effort put into making Crossfire > > a good multi-player game, I do not think we should abandon the solo > > player. For various reasons people can't always play multi-player. I much > > prefer playing multi-player, but there are often times when it simply > > isn't possible, so I want to be able to play and enjoy Crossfire solo. > > Certainly it should be more difficult playing solo, but it shouldn't be > > impossible. > > > > Rupert > > I don't agree with this a lot. Crossfire should be mainly a multiplayer > game. The single player capability could be limited to something like > playing a MUD alone. If you want to play Crossfire-like games alone, > why not play Nethack, Ultima, Omega etc...? Because Crossfire is a _different_ game to all of those, and (in some ways) better (mostly appearance). When I buy a PC (to run Linux on, of course) I intend to get Crossfire for it, but it will *never* have more than one player on it, so I still want the game playable for solo players - this means that my mage should still be able to fight, and my fighter should still be able to cast spells. In other words, at the beginning, perhaps, classes may be distinct, but at the higher levels, it should still be _possible_ to do _anything_. > > -Sven > David T Cook e-mail: dcook@spam.adelaide.edu.au Phone: +61 8 303 5709 Assistant Computer Manager, Stats, Pure and Applied Maths, Adelaide Uni. "Behind the lines, a face that glimmers. Still looking for a face that shines." - Heartland, The Sisters of Mercy From crossfire-request Thu May 26 04:49:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz (kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.5.20]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 04:49:37 +0200 Received: from debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz (debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.8.46]) by kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz (8.6.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA21611 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 14:49:10 +1200 Received: (ninja@localhost) by debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA12810; Thu, 26 May 1994 14:49:24 +1200 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 14:49:22 +1200 (NZST) From: Ninja Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405252344.AA24956@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO > I don't agree with this a lot. Crossfire should be mainly a multiplayer > game. The single player capability could be limited to something like > playing a MUD alone. If you want to play Crossfire-like games alone, > why not play Nethack, Ultima, Omega etc...? > > IMO, the best feature about crossfire is the multiplayer capability. We > should always keep that in mind. > > -Sven what? I think we should make it possible to play most of the game alone. you won't always have people to team up with. we should not make multiplayer capability the best feature of crossfire, rather something which adds something special to it ninj From crossfire-request Thu May 26 05:41:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 05:33:08 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA01378; Thu, 26 May 1994 11:38:52 +1000 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 11:38:52 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405260138.AA01378@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Status: RO > > This leads me into one of the major problems I have about crossfire. > Lately, most of the discussion has been abut gameplay mechanics thigns. > Frankly, everyone here is going to have vastly different opinions about > this. Right now I can see a discussion going on between the strong > class-differentiation and weak-or-no class-differentiation camps. > > There's good points and bad points to either. Getting everyone to > agree on one or the other just isn't going to happen. There's too many > differing opinions on how what the best, most playable, way to model our > little crossfire reality. > > Really, what would be best to do would be to put all the game-play > mechanics aside, perhaps in their own directory, for the individual server > admins to customize as they see fit. Generalize the rules and action > tests of teh game as much as possible in the core source, and let the > 'game-play' library decide how whether these succeed or not. Then we're > writing a metagame, and then everyone can tune the game running under the > metagame however they want. There is lots of discussion going on at the moment, but I would hope that after a while we might reach some sort of consensus. When we do it will be all the better for the amount of discussion going on. I don't like the idea of a generalized mechanics because I think that Crossfire needs an identity. In the same way that Omega, Nethack, Larn, etc have a particular feel, I believe that Crossfire should have one too. It also allows us to balance the game play much better. If everyone is running their own mechanics then they have to balance it themselves which is a non trivial exercise, but if hundreds (thousands, millions !!!) are playing the same mechanics then there will be more flaws discovered. I think game balance is being underrated at the moment. We have all been excitedly adding new cool features to Crossfire without some overall balancing going on. Now people get bored with the game because they can easily make themselves mega-powerful and romp over any challenge. [...] > > The cynic in me says, however, that we'll just end up with a stupid class > system, since its so much easier to code. And then we'll have splinter > groups trying to write much saner game systems. It'd be nicer, however, > if it was easier to keep them all together with the same core source. > > I say this all because, quite frankly, I'm not in the 'classes' camp. I > only play D&D when I want to show how ridiculous that game is. D&D is > simple to make it playable. We DONT need to do that here, because we've > got this wonderful computerized DM to handle all the annoying little > details. > I agree full-heartedly. I play AD&D, but I have no fixation on sticking to a class system. Crossfire is a action/adventure computer game - not a paper and pencils role playing game. Let's make the mechanics fit the type of game we are creating. > > Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com > Rupert From crossfire-request Thu May 26 02:49:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 02:49:15 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA00662; Thu, 26 May 1994 10:48:12 +1000 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 10:48:12 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405260048.AA00662@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Multiple Deities (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) Status: RO > Perhaps several deities; choose/create a pantheon with good and evil > deities; the cleric starts as a general cleric, but chooses one of the > pantheon (by going into a temple and sacrificing at an altar) as their > main patron. Different deities could give differing spells/abilities > etc., and have different power `opposing' them e.g. a Healing God would > be opposed by the God of Undead, and so forth. > > Or does this just make everything too complicated? > > * mjcugley@maths-and-cs.dundee.ac.uk (internet) * > * or mjcugley@uk.ac.dund.maths-and-cs (JANet) * I've been thinking about this idea, and I am thinking about implementing it by using Spell Paths. The way it would work is that each deity grants its priests attunement to certain Paths, repells them from others, and denies access to some others. So your Healing god may give attunement to Healing and Protection and deny Fire, Frost, and Electricity. In case your are wondering what Spell Paths are, they were added in 0.91.0. They are described in doc/spell-paths. Rupert From crossfire-request Thu May 26 01:44:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: from waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.4.42]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 01:44:54 +0200 Received: from marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de by waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP (Sendmail 8.6.9/UniDo 2.0.18) id BAA25997; Thu, 26 May 1994 01:44:51 +0200 From: Sven Neuhaus Message-Id: <9405252344.AA24956@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Received: by marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id AA24956; Thu, 26 May 94 01:44:49 +0200 Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: rgg@aaii.oz.au (Rupert G. Goldie) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 01:44:48 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405250827.AA03816@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> from "Rupert G. Goldie" at May 25, 94 06:27:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1825 Status: RO > > From: KARIM SANJABI > > > > > I really believe that xfire should be designed around a group, > > multi user idea. I have very high hopes for xfire becoming a > > true multi user game, where it is more beneficial, and fun to > > play with other people, instead of just "scum maps by yourself." We > > have tried to make maps with a party system in mind (multiple > > levers that need > 1 person, monsters with immune physical in > > one part of the dungeon, immune magic in another) but no matter > > how extreme we go, the same 20th level priest/magic user can > > race through it no problem. I think that class distinctions should > > be very major, I would like to see this done realistically though. > > > > Karim > > > While I think there should be lots of effort put into making Crossfire > a good multi-player game, I do not think we should abandon the solo > player. For various reasons people can't always play multi-player. I much > prefer playing multi-player, but there are often times when it simply > isn't possible, so I want to be able to play and enjoy Crossfire solo. > Certainly it should be more difficult playing solo, but it shouldn't be > impossible. > > Rupert I don't agree with this a lot. Crossfire should be mainly a multiplayer game. The single player capability could be limited to something like playing a MUD alone. If you want to play Crossfire-like games alone, why not play Nethack, Ultima, Omega etc...? IMO, the best feature about crossfire is the multiplayer capability. We should always keep that in mind. -Sven -- Sven Neuhaus, CS student at University of Dortmund, Germany/\Internet for Netrek, Doom & Empire addict.PGP key available upon request@@ the masses! KGB CIA Assassination Palestine explosive terrorist Uzi NSA\/info@ping.de From crossfire-request Wed May 25 23:35:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from edison.eng.auburn.edu (edison.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 23:35:41 +0200 Received: from zero.eng.auburn.edu (zero.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.31.7]) by edison.eng.auburn.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA01828 for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 16:35:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (dyessww@localhost) by zero.eng.auburn.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id QAA07447; Wed, 25 May 1994 16:35:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 16:30:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Dyess Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405250538.WAA21229@soda.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO > I see your point, now, and agree somewhat. I do think that practicing > magic should be rewarded. Perhaps you could go for this: experience > is awarded based on the highest skill level. This would have the > interesting side effect of making it so that a 10th level character > would have a VERY hard time picking up his 1st level skill areas. The 10th level fighter still only has the magic abilities of a 1st level mage. He would still face a challenge in a low level dungeon just as if he was a low level mage if he relied completely on magic. Granted, he would have more hp and a better armor class (although not necessarily that much so, if he has to remove his armor to cast spells), but he would still have a severe mana point shortage. --Bill From crossfire-request Wed May 25 22:38:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 22:38:45 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id NAA16221; Wed, 25 May 1994 13:37:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199405252037.NAA16221@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Mark Wedel cc: mehlhaff@crl.com, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, john@soda.berkeley.edu, kenji@soda.berkeley.edu, mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu, mlee@soda.berkeley.edu, nevman@soda.berkeley.edu, raytrace@soda.berkeley.edu, retnuh@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 23:47:36 PDT." <199405250647.AA17058@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 13:37:10 -0700 From: Scott MacFiggen Status: RO In message <199405250647.AA17058@bolero.rahul.net>you write: > I don't know if I am willing to put that much work into separating >everything out. It would be a pretty substantial project. In fact, it >would probably be a major re-write of a lot of the code. > > --Mark I too agree that game mechanics should be separated from the game engine. Here is how I see it. The game up to this point has consisted of alot of people hacking little parts of the code. This has caused the code to become messy and big. The game would benefit greatly if someone sat down and did alot of spring cleaning. If we decide to implement ERic's idea then cleaning up the code could happen in parallel. It all comes down to how devoted everybody is to making a good game. Do we want to just hack what we have and release it or do we want to do the best job we can. Summer just started so this would be a good time to begin a major project. ############################################################################## # Scott MacFiggen -- 88 VTR250 -- EUVE Systems Administrator -- CEA # # # # smurf@soda.berkeley.edu CSUA Vice-President scottmm@cea.berkeley.edu # ############################################################################## From crossfire-request Wed May 25 20:41:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 20:41:16 +0200 Received: from dancer.Dartmouth.EDU by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id OAA09805; Wed, 25 May 1994 14:41:14 -0400 Message-id: <4393147@dancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 25 May 94 14:41:08 EDT From: Preston.F.Crow@Dartmouth.EDU (Preston F. Crow) Reply-To: preston.crow@dancer.dartmouth.edu Subject: CF: 0.91.1 distribution bug To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO lib/Makefile doesn't work--you need to remove the blank line at line 304. This blank line is created by a commented-out line in the Imakefile in the list of FILES. I believe that moving the commented-out line to the end of the list is all that is needed to fix the problem. --PC From crossfire-request Wed May 25 20:41:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 20:41:19 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <166864-1>; Wed, 25 May 1994 21:41:12 +0300 Subject: Re: hps of classes From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 21:08:01 +0300 In-Reply-To: <9405250952.AA01478@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> from "Simon McIntosh-Smith" at May 25, 94 12:52:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 919 Message-Id: <94May25.214112eet_dst.166864-1@utu.fi> Status: RO If we get rid of the classes in favor of races I think there could be an easy fix to allow better distinguish human mages, fighters etc. You could have absolute max higher for races then the current but set a limit to the average of stats. So a "fighter" would advance his str and con and decide not not advance the int. He would basically turn into a barbarian. This system of course needs that no stat is "unneeded". The limit could be something like: max stat sum = 114 + isqrt( 2 * level ) This would give a small allovance for "late" advances. For example the fighter could decide that he does need more intelligence. Other possibility would be to allow the highest max stat sum at level 20 and not make it any higher from that on. The isqrt( 2 * level ) has the following values. Advance Level 1 1 2 2 3 5 4 8 5 13 6 18 7 25 8 32 9 41 10 50 11 61 12 72 13 85 14 -- From crossfire-request Wed May 25 19:18:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 19:18:54 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id KAA05696; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:18:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199405251718.KAA05696@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon McIntosh-Smith cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 1994 10:52:14 -0000." <9405250952.AA01478@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 10:18:24 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <9405250952.AA01478@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk>, Simon McIntosh-Smith write s: >I think there should be severe penalties for wearing armour on spell- >casting ability too - wizards happily running around in +4 plate mail, >a +2 full shield and +2 full helmet, plus boots, girdles etc, and Already done. Armour, weapons, sheilds now encumber a spellcaster and cause spell failure. Light equipment causes no failure at all, heavy equipment causes mondo failures. PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 19:04:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 19:04:18 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id KAA02508; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:03:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199405251703.KAA02508@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon McIntosh-Smith cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Suggestions for crossfire change. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 1994 09:39:02 -0000." <9405250839.AA01155@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 10:03:46 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <9405250839.AA01155@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk>, Simon McIntosh-Smith write s: > >I know - why not add a few "charm" based spells, where a charmed character >or monster walks around randomly and slowly for a short period of time - >similar in a way to running away when affected by a fear spell. A high >char would give increased resistence to charm based spells... This wouldn't be too hard. Just convert monsters from free to type pet or whatever. I've been meaning to do this, now it's officially on my TODO list..... regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 19:00:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 19:00:14 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id JAA01646; Wed, 25 May 1994 09:59:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199405251659.JAA01646@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon McIntosh-Smith cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 1994 09:21:00 -0000." <9405250821.AA01143@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 09:59:54 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <9405250821.AA01143@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk>, Simon McIntosh-Smith write s: >I'd say it was the other way around. My natural abilities are intellectual; Yes, and I bet you'd rate a stat in strength, con, dex of 8-9 in each, yes? If you had higher stats in those areas, you'd be a good fighter as well as a good mage, would you not? Your natural abilities would be intellectual AND physical. Not EVERYONE is one-sided. >no matter how hard I try I will not be as good an athlete or as competitive >in sport as some of my friends. Similarly, my friends may not be able to Start taking vitamins (steroids!) and you might be suprised. In the game it's simpler, you just quaff a potion..... >So it should be with wizards and fighters. A character is a wizard BECAUSE >he is more in tune with magic. The skill comes first, leading on to the He's more in tune because he's smarter. What if he's BOTH smart AND strong? If he divides his time, he learns slower in each skill division, but he CAN learn. That is exactly what skill areas will do. I daresay YOU could divide YOUR time between intellectual and physical, and increase your abilities in both. And you might want to do that anyway, because it DOES feel good to be in shape. :) >system for calculating results of actions from a characters stats. Drinking >a potion may make you stronger or more intelligent, but no-one would claim >that this would naturally make you a better fighter or magician. A fighter Yes, I agree here. What it would do is give you the stats which would make practicing fighting work better for you. You'd gain fighting experience faster because of your higher stats. You would not become a better fighter without going and getting experience.... Just like it is now. Key to my argument is that you get fighting experience by killing with weapons, you get mage experience by blasting out spells, and you get cleric experience by clericing, and you get thief experience by thieving. You must devote time to each area to advance. The biggest differences between your scheme and mine are: I say: if you practice, you become better You say: you are what you are and can be nothing more I say: advancement and experience come from actions in the game related to that skill You say: you go out and get experience in the field (always by killing monsters), and return to the guild for advancement (The guild is then like a potion that you take when you've got enought 'points', whether or not your skill is related to how you got the 'points'.) >What does everyone think about this kind of idea? I've made my biases eminently clear. :) I've been brainwashed by Omega. Playing that game made me think that its system of advancement is the coolest I've played under. Regardless of the direction crossfire takes, i think this argument has been fun, and will do crossfire good. I've already made some changes which will sharpen the differences between classes a bit, and hopefully add color to the game. >can only use weapons they are proficient in - other weapons can be used >but at a penalty. I wonder if we could incorperate this idea into This makes sense..... It's another complexity to the code, however. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 15:04:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hutcs.cs.hut.fi (hutcs.cs.hut.fi [130.233.192.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 15:04:15 +0200 Received: from shadows.cs.hut.fi by hutcs.cs.hut.fi with SMTP id AA04779 (5.65c8/HUTCS-S 1.4 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 16:04:13 +0300 Received: by shadows.cs.hut.fi (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA05129; Wed, 25 May 1994 16:04:30 --200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 16:04:30 --200 Message-Id: <9405251304.AA05129@shadows.cs.hut.fi> From: Tero Kivinen Sender: kivinen@cs.hut.fi To: "Rupert G. Goldie" Cc: Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) In-Reply-To: <199405250849.AA03933@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> References: <199405250849.AA03933@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> Organization: Helsinki University of Technology/Lifelong Learning Institute Dipoli Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Length: 1583 Status: RO "Rupert G. Goldie" writes: > knowledge of AI 8-). The main problem with making monsters smarter is > computational time. We already have a few heuristics which are quick and have ... > chew up too much time while adding some challenging opponents. I would also > like to see a better parser added for NPC interaction, but that will need > some serious thought and work done on it as we can't change the method of NPC > interaction too often or we lose too much work put into maps. When I planned my own crossfire type game few years back, I planned to implement important npc's and monster with robot programs that would interact with rest of players through normal client-server interface. This way they could be run in different machine so they could take as much cpu time as they need without slowing other players. When crossfire is moved to client-server we could write specific monster programs that would play some important monster, like one demi-lich program that would play all demi-liches in the world. This way the monsters can even coperate with each other (one monster is driving users to some direction, calling other monster to ambush player when they get there... etc). I think only thing that is needed in the client-server protocol is that one connection can be used to send commands and information about several monsters, so we don't need separate connection for each monster, but can use one conenction to play them all. -- Tero.Kivinen@hut.FI Work : +358-0-451 4032 Magnus Enckellin kuja 9 K 19, 02610, Espoo Home : +358-0-502 1573 From crossfire-request Wed May 25 16:57:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 16:57:41 +0200 Received: from pobox.mot.com ([129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com with SMTP (5.67b/IDA-1.4.4/MOT-3.1 for ) id AA10095; Wed, 25 May 1994 09:57:09 -0500 Received: from motcig.cig.mot.com by pobox.mot.com with SMTP (5.67b/IDA-1.4.4/MOT-3.1 for ) id AA10636; Wed, 25 May 1994 09:57:06 -0500 Received: from anteater.cig.mot.com by motcig.cig.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18946; Wed, 25 May 94 09:57:04 CDT Received: by anteater.cig.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-CIG-1.1) id AA28980; Wed, 25 May 94 09:57:04 CDT Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:57:04 CDT From: forsyth@anteater.cig.mot.com (Dwayne Forsyth) Message-Id: <9405251457.AA28980@anteater.cig.mot.com> Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. X-Mailer: Siren Mail (Motif 1.2 94/03/14) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Id: <4248_28283_769877824_3@anteater> Content-Type: text/plain Status: RO A played a game once where once you got above a set level, you had to do a number of things to advance you next level. You went to guild house of the class you wanted to advance in. The guild house will give you a task or mission you would have to perform for the next level. You also had to pay the guild money and have experince points. To advance to the next level you must. - pay XXXX gold to show your respect to the house - have proven you have the experince to grow (YYYYY experince points) - retrieve the XXXX object, Its last known location was in the ZZZZZZZZZ. The hight the level you where advancing the farther the object was from the given location, in some cases you would find a empty chest, talking to characters in the area would give a story about how it was taken new location. ------ Dwayne From crossfire-request Wed May 25 13:07:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from aino.it.lut.fi (haatanen@aino.it.lut.fi [157.24.11.71]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 13:07:13 +0200 Received: from localhost (haatanen@localhost) by aino.it.lut.fi (8.6.5/8.6.5/1.12.kim) id OAA28239; Wed, 25 May 1994 14:07:10 +0300 (for crossfire@ifi.uio.no) From: Tero Haatanen Message-Id: <199405251107.OAA28239@aino.it.lut.fi> Subject: Re: Abuse of Gravestones To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Wed, 25 May 94 14:07:09 EET DST In-Reply-To: <9405251007.AA15116@nova.gmi.edu>; from "akshay srinivasan" at May 25, 94 6:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO > A lot of users are complaining about the fact that gravestones are a > source of money (too much?). The problem is that players are either > player killing (another problem as peaceful does not work against magic) > or dummy player killing for gravestones which> they sell to make huge > amounts of money. The gravestone prices was meant to buying gravestones not selling them. This means not using NOT_PERMANENT_DEATH, so that the dead player's corpse can be buried to the graveyard (no-one haven't make a map yet and I haven't had time to finish mine). You can change gravestone's value by editing archetypes files. Look for Object gravestone and change value to 0. > How do you prevent playerkilling by magic? Besides the we all come > and get you if you do playerkill approach. No any easy solution to this problem. Tell players that is forbitten or modify code. > Thanks > Ripclaw > (Lev 14; Maintainer) Please, try make your lines below 80 characters. -Tero From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:26:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:26:05 +0200 Received: (john@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id DAA18271; Wed, 25 May 1994 03:25:57 -0700 From: John Morgan Salomon Message-Id: <199405251025.DAA18271@soda.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal (fwd) To: crossfire-a@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire-h@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 03:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL5] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 530 Status: RO As 'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff would have said, --snip snip snip-- >> I don't know if I am willing to put that much work into separating >>everything out. It would be a pretty substantial project. In fact, it >>would probably be a major re-write of a lot of the code. > >Not that such a thing isn't badly needed, eh? :-) > > Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com > I'm in this both for the fun and to learn how to program. I'd be more than willing to do whatever my limited abilities allow to help with such a re- write -John From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:04:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from nova.gmi.edu (nova.gmi.edu [192.138.137.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:04:42 +0200 Received: from trofeo.gmi.edu by nova.gmi.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA15116; Wed, 25 May 94 06:07:44 EDT Date: Wed, 25 May 94 06:07:44 EDT From: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Message-Id: <9405251007.AA15116@nova.gmi.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Abuse of Gravestones Status: RO A lot of users are complaining about the fact that gravestones are a source of money (too much?). The problem is that players are either player killing (another problem as peaceful does not work against magic) or dummy player killing for gravestones which they sell to make huge amounts of money. Should monetary return on gravestones be removed. How do you prevent playerkilling by magic? Besides the we all come and get you if you do playerkill approach. (Phew! This damn game is just a couple of weeks old here and I am facing all kinds of tough issues. Some advice would be great) Thanks Ripclaw (Lev 14; Maintainer) From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:00:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:00:29 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id DAA11163; Wed, 25 May 1994 03:00:21 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405251000.DAA11163@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Classes To: huma@netcom.com (Ben Fennema) Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 03:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405250508.WAA21446@netcom.com> from "Ben Fennema" at May 24, 94 10:08:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5258 Status: RO > > > As long as everyone is on the subject of classes/races I might as well > put in my own 2 cents... > > Okie, here's my idea... > > Screw ALL classes.. Dump em, blast em, flush em, etc... > > Instead, do this.. > I like your idea a lot, one of the biggest problems that I see is a total newbie, just wanting to look around, having to make all of these cryptic choices (immune drain? what's that). Maybe haveing some of the basic character classes as defaults would be appropriate. I do really like this idea though. It seems that xfire gets closer and closer to being AD&D with every idea almost. This may not be that bad of an idea since many people find AD&D very playable, but should xfire be an AD&D clone? I don't think that it should be. > Let the player pick what he wants to be... > When they create their character, let them role their stats, then let > them custom design their class.. > (stuff deleted) basically code the class generation tables from AD&D 2nd edition. Not a bad idea, it could work fine. > > --Huma > > Out of all the things that I see could be fixed in xfire, here is a list of what I think should be done. I really think that xfire could become *the* biggest game on the internet. It is so close. 1) client server. I really could care less if a version 1.0 comes out before the client server. As the game stands now, 3-5 people can play locally if they have a good network and a good server. If an offsite player comes on, the game lags for everyone. It crashes horribly every time a player kills a window, and has lots of other bugs. I'm not saying that people don't do a good job fixing bugs, but I just don't know how much it is worth it. I really see xfire as being a dead end, without going to client server. 2) make the game revolve around people, not maps. I think that the coders should take a good look at why so many people play MUDs on a daily basis. The multi-user part of xfire is the greatest thing about the whole game. I think that with a good rewrite, client/server the game could support 30 people at the same time (about this at least). What should all these people be doing? Racing to scum the artifact at the end of a 5 minute quest? I think that the players should have an environment that they can communicate with each other in a more realistic way, or make it more important, or more beneficial. (I hope I'm making sense.) I have seen people playing at chico go through these cycles. When tvangod brings down a new distribution, there is a great demand to play xfire because it is something different and new. Then after playing all the new maps, scumming new characters up to level 30, finding new bugs etc, people quit playing because it is the same old thing. Then they go back to playing MUD's. So what does xfire need to keep people's interest? Should we look more closely at MUD's and figure out why they have such a high "addiction" rate? Should xfire have this? I really think so. I just believe that the game, once it can support ~30 users, and when it revoles around other players, the game has such great potential, it could be the best game I have ever played. I would love to exploit this potential. 3) How about a user scriptable language that allows a player or "dm" to change the way an object interacts with the world. This could add great flexibility to everything from monsters with missions, to a trap triggered when you open a door. Again, maybe we should look at MUD's and the LPC language. 4) I propose that we change the view on how the character sees his/her inverntory. I think that an Ultima Underworld like view would be much better. A picture of the character and "hot spots" like left and right hand, head, torso... that hold various items, sword, shield, helm, armour. I think that this would be a much better interface and also help the problem of encoumbrance. Where are you going to put all 10 luggages? 4 suits of armour... in your belt pouch? This could also be flexible enough to allow the user to change the way that his/her character looked like, and maybe even have something that if one character looks at anoother, that character can see the other's inventory picture. feed back on this idea? 5) along with the multiuser idea, I think that we should give more flexibility to the player who controls the character. Let's give players the ability to "emote", or to control what their character looks like, or give the characters a .plan that others can look at and get a description of a character. Well, just thought I'd let you all know about some things that I was thinking of. I don't MUD myself, but would if xfire became more like a MUD. Pointless dungeon crawling only holds interest so long with me. I really like some of the ideas that MUD's are based on, I just think that text is not a medium that I would like to "be" in. The addition of the human experience, I honestly thing, is the greatest stength in xfire. If you don't have that, you have ultima III with a couple other people playing, slowing the game down, scumming your artifact at the end of the level before you can get to it. Well, I hope that most of you can relate to where I am coming from. Karim From crossfire-request Wed May 25 11:52:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 11:52:20 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <07622-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:52:17 +0100 Date: Wed, 25 May 94 10:52:14 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405250952.AA01478@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes Status: RO Well, I think that a move to choosing a RACE, and then having a SKILLs system would be great, and an answer to all the problems we've been discussing. I think the game would benefit greatly from this idea. Rather than CLASS bonuses we would have RACIAL bonuses - halflings better at thiefy things, with a better DEX etc but lower STRENGTH. Humans would be the all-rounders. Dwarves would get a good CON but lower CHARISMA, while Elves might have higher DEX and CHAR but lower CON? The system would allow for specialisation in a single skill, while at the same time permiting multi-skilled characters to exist. As long as a little care is taken about the balance, this should work very well. I think there should be severe penalties for wearing armour on spell- casting ability too - wizards happily running around in +4 plate mail, a +2 full shield and +2 full helmet, plus boots, girdles etc, and this not affecting their spell-casting ability much - it's not on! Multi-skilled characters should naturally advance more slowly then specialized counterparts to preserve balance - so EXP going into the different skills for performing different acts should serve to solve this problem. Sy From crossfire-request Wed May 25 11:44:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from nova.gmi.edu (nova.gmi.edu [192.138.137.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 11:44:13 +0200 Received: from trofeo.gmi.edu by nova.gmi.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA15038; Wed, 25 May 94 05:47:15 EDT Date: Wed, 25 May 94 05:47:15 EDT From: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Message-Id: <9405250947.AA15038@nova.gmi.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO Thanks that was very helpful (Party; 2 weps; etc). BTW is there someone working on aliasing stuff or could I make a cloned modification of the bind command. Thanks Ripclaw (Lev 14; Maintainer) From crossfire-request Wed May 25 11:35:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from crl2.crl.com (crl2.crl.com [165.113.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 11:35:09 +0200 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl2.crl.com with SMTP id AA17039 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 02:32:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250932.AA17039@crl2.crl.com> To: Simon McIntosh-Smith Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: hps of classes In-Reply-To: Message from Simon McIntosh-Smith of Wed, 25 May 1994 09:21:00 -0000 <9405250821.AA01143@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 02:32:59 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Simon McIntosh-Smith recently wrote: >> >A wizard is someone who is naturally more attuned to the mystic arts. Barring the 'natural gift' theory that some game systems claim a magician must have (either you have it or you don't -- interestingly, people born with such a trait usually aren't impaired from being good fighters, just that it'd be a real waste of the 'rare' talent) >> Why? Because he is called a wizard? I'm much more of the "a character >> is what he acts like" point of view. If you play a character in such >> a way as to develop fighting skills: i.e., wearing armour, quaffing >> str,dex,con potions, having monstrous weapons, then, by God, that character >> IS a fighter. > >I'd say it was the other way around. My natural abilities are intellectual; >no matter how hard I try I will not be as good an athlete or as competitive >in sport as some of my friends. So, what if you had, at your disposal, 'magic potions' that made you just as strong or agile as those friends whom you can't be as good as? Would you still be incapable of being as good? My point here is that given the same natural abilities (usually quantified in most games by attributes), characters should be the same. There's no reason why one with the "warrior" label pinned on his chest should be any better at magic or melee than one with "wizard" pinned on his chest. Unless, of course, you throw in a "skills" system. THe classed family of FRP's ( such as D&D) use the simple approach, and assume everyone has one "skill" -- that being their class. Skill systems assume people can have several, and have varying amounts of skills in each of them. Not everyone locks into a single skill or closely-knit group of skills, but the easiesst way to get good in one is to concentrate on that one. The jack of all trades is rarely good at everything, but neither is he incapable of most things. >he is more in tune with magic. The skill comes first, leading on to the >career. [...] >Being a fighter MEANS >you do spend all your time training for melee - that is your job, as that >is where your natural skills lie - otherwise you wouldn't have been a fighter >in the first place. You're using 'skill' here, where 'talent' would be a better word. Within the crossfire paradigm, talents would best be quantified with attributes. Skill implies something learned, while talent does not. >Quaffing potions is no substitute for this - why should >you be as good a fighter as Bruce Lee just because you are as strong etc as >him? He gained his abilities from all the training he does as a fighter; >his ability does NOT just depend simply on his strength or reflexes. His ability is all based on training. Thanks for your excellent argument FOR a skill system. >PS Another thought - in AD&D (can you guess what RPG I play!?) PCs >can only use weapons they are proficient in - other weapons can be used >but at a penalty. AD&D keeps wanting to become a skill based system, but they don't want to lose their simplicity. You end up with a mess. Basically, proficiency is a cool idea, best implemented as skill levels with individual weapons types. I tell you, if we had a good skill based system going, you could simplify the heck out of it, and end up with a generic D&D-like class based system. You people really should try something other than D&D -- GURPS, HERO, Runequest, etc. There's more to life than singular classes. Oh, another interesting game to look at is nethack -- it has classes and such, but they don't strongly dominate a characters development. Really, it has a lot of neat features that would be cool to bring over to crossfire. The other excellent source of ideas is Ultima V -- the last good Ultima. Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:13:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:13:40 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA00492; Wed, 25 May 1994 19:19:40 +1000 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 19:19:40 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405250919.AA00492@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Suggestions for crossfire change. Status: RO > From crossfire-request@ifi.uio.no Wed May 25 11:19:31 1994 > Date: Tue, 24 May 94 21:10:43 -0400 > From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) > I brainstormed while re-reading a number of posts and thought > of the following suggestions for crossfire change... > > limit magical bonuses from prepare weapon scrolls > attributes +4 and natural +6 don't know about speed,weight,damage... > This should definitely be done. > limit a players total magical bonuses (from equipment worn) to > their level, and the total magical bonus of carried weapons > to some multiple of this (Frodo struggled with on ring of > invisibility, but my character carries around 13 rings) > ex- my wiz is carrying: amulet ac+2, taifu+3, ring con+1 wis+1 > speed +1, ring of Ice, chainmail+3, helmet+2, shield+2; thats > +16 and I am only 9th level. > I'm not so keen on this one. Maybe have bad/wierd things happen if you have too much magic on you. (some monsters are more attracted to players radiating magic, or some new type of monster occasionally teleports close to high magic players ?) > Change max ability levels based upon class. Fighters should have > increased max hit points, wizards should have increased max > spell points. > > Devise minor abilities/skills for each class. Fighters should be > harder to scare in battle..protection from fear. > > Assume some level dependent training. Fighters wc and damage > increases per level should be greater than a wizards (whose > might be 0), Wizards could automatically learn spells with > a level increase. Guilds would have to be implemented to > delay these bonuses until after melee. > Maybe on these. They could be blended with PeterM's proposal if we go that way. I also think guilds could add something (it would certainly stop people from munching through an unbalanced room and walking out with several new levels). > Sell/purchase differences in classes. Fighters should know more > about purchasing weapons/shields/armour, Wizards about wands/ > spellbooks/scrolls, Clerics about potions, thieves about gems. > This could also be ok as long as it doesn't unbalance the different classes. > Equipment switching delay. If a character switches armour then > they should transition through a periods of NO armour(original > armour can be immediately put back on until new armour is fully > on; accidental clicking is a problem with or without this > feature). Delay should be armour dependent. > Yeah, cool. I think Nethack does this. > Fix charisma bonuses. The difference between 10-30 charisma > should be ~50%. People might invest in charisma potions > and rings and stuff, but wizards wouldn't get such a huge > advantage for having 100 spell points and a charisma spell. > > > -jim Yeah, it looks like charisma could be tweaked a bit. Rupert From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:13:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:12:56 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA00413; Wed, 25 May 1994 19:16:35 +1000 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 19:16:35 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405250916.AA00413@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: object structure and player structure Status: RO > I've noticed that several things which could go in the > player structure are in the object structure in structs.h. > There are lots of objects, but very few players, yes? So > we really should stick everything possible in the player > structure? > > I'm talking about things which are specific to the player..... > > > Regards, > > PeterM > Which things in particular ? I agree that anything that can be moved from the object struct should be (it is awfully big for something we use a lot). One idea I have had is to separate the object struct into mostly static and dynamic parts. The dynamic part will have all the elements that we know will change. The mostly static part will have elements that for most objects won't be different from the archetype. Then for an object it will have a dynamic_obj struct and a pointer to a static_obj struct. For most objects the static_obj struct will point into the archetype, but for some they will have their own, modified, copy. The advantage is that you save memory, the disadvantage is that you now have to be really carefully about assigning to anything in the static_obj struct. If you don't make a copy before making a change you will modify the archetype. For this reason alone it probably isn't worth doing this unless memory becomes a really bad problem. Rupert From crossfire-request Wed May 25 11:09:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from pp.dundee.ac.uk (pp.dundee.ac.uk [134.36.2.60]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 11:09:10 +0200 Received: from pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk by pp.dundee.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <04453-0@pp.dundee.ac.uk>; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:08:27 +0100 Received: from forth.mcs.dund.ac.uk (forth.mcs.dundee.ac.uk) by pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11631; Wed, 25 May 94 10:09:20 BST Date: Wed, 25 May 94 10:09:20 BST From: mjcugley@mcs.dundee.ac.uk (Womble with Attitude) Message-Id: <9405250909.AA11631@pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk> To: crossfire@no.uio.ifi Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Status: RO > > My immediate plans: ( I don't regard these changes as controversial) > > 3) Remove the ability of no-magic areas to ban clerical spells. > > (Remember, clerics won't have most offensive spells.) > > > > Comments? > > Questions? > > Support? > > Suggestions? > > Objections? Just as a thought; you may want to provide `evil' temples which prevent `good' (i.e. PC) clerical magic from happening, while not neccessarily affecting `wizard' magic. Perhaps several deities; choose/create a pantheon with good and evil deities; the cleric starts as a general cleric, but chooses one of the pantheon (by going into a temple and sacrificing at an altar) as their main patron. Different deities could give differing spells/abilities etc., and have different power `opposing' them e.g. a Healing God would be opposed by the God of Undead, and so forth. Or does this just make everything too complicated? * mjcugley@maths-and-cs.dundee.ac.uk (internet) * * or mjcugley@uk.ac.dund.maths-and-cs (JANet) * * * * People! Can't live with 'em, can't trade them in for spares... * From crossfire-request Wed May 25 11:09:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 11:09:31 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id CAA10468; Wed, 25 May 1994 02:09:14 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405250909.CAA10468@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal To: dyessww@eng.auburn.edu (Bill Dyess) Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 02:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: from "Bill Dyess" at May 24, 94 09:29:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 767 Status: RO > > [4 class system described] > > Comments? > > Questions? > > Support? > > Suggestions? > > Objections? > > I REALLY like this idea. That is the game I want to play. > > --Bill > > yeah, I am very much in favor of this system also. A whole new mixture of classes can come from it, like cleric/fighter, fighter/magicuser and all the other combinations. I also think that if something like this happens, it would be cool if the exp to reach the next level requires more exp than just a straight class, but when you did go up a level, you benefited on both sides (all three/four sides?). I think that this allows great flexiblity, and still provides the reasoning that a fighter, if he/she works hard enough, can cast spells etc. makes sense to me. Karim From crossfire-request Wed May 25 11:02:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from crl2.crl.com (crl2.crl.com [165.113.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 11:02:21 +0200 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl2.crl.com with SMTP id AA16648 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 May 1994 02:00:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250900.AA16648@crl2.crl.com> To: Mark Wedel Cc: mehlhaff@crl.com, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, john@soda.berkeley.edu, kenji@soda.berkeley.edu, mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu, mlee@soda.berkeley.edu, nevman@soda.berkeley.edu, raytrace@soda.berkeley.edu, retnuh@soda.berkeley.edu, smurf@soda.berkeley.edu, mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Wedel of Tue, 24 May 1994 23:47:36 -0700 <199405250647.AA17058@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 02:00:20 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Mark Wedel recently wrote: > Yes, ideally there would be several different class implementations, and >you select the one you want. > > However, everything is greatly interrelated. If you change it so that >different classes get different ability bonuses for the same ability >at the same level (ie, a mage with a 20 int gets more spell casting bonuses >than a fighter with a 20 int), that quickly means re-doing most of the >common/living.c file. > > Changing spell learning or how good a class casts a spell changes areas >in apply.c and the spells.c file. This is the problem, and yes, it'd be a big job to fix it. My point is, we can continue just hacking random crap all over the place, or we can, in our continuuing development, separate new things, with the ultimate goal of going back and fixing the old cruft. I'm hoping we can be forward-thinking in our future coding. Call it the hopeless optimist in me... > I don't know if I am willing to put that much work into separating >everything out. It would be a pretty substantial project. In fact, it >would probably be a major re-write of a lot of the code. Not that such a thing isn't badly needed, eh? :-) Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:16:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:16:30 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA03933; Wed, 25 May 1994 18:49:32 +1000 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 18:49:32 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405250849.AA03933@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO > From crossfire-request@ifi.uio.no Wed May 25 06:37:17 1994 > From: KARIM SANJABI > Oh, and while I'm thinking about it ;) some monsters give out > way too many exp. Like demi-liches. 500000? I have seen a 25 level > barbarian wade through like 30 of them in one room no problem, then > he becomes 31st level or something. I think that there need to > be tougher monsters. I have taken monsters like the chineese dragon, liches, > and the Demon lord, given them almost every attack, protection, a few > immunes, and it is only a matter of seconds before they die. > Hmmm, I meant to mention the demi-lich a while ago. I believe it has waaaay to many xp. If you run Crossfire with the '-m' flag it will print out a table of all the monsters. The last two columns are, respectively, crossfire xp and rgg xp. Crossfire xp are what are in the archetypes. rgg xp are calculated based upon a complicated formula I created and tuned with the aim of automatically calculating xp for monsters. As the formula may not fully encompass all of the nuances of the difficulty of a monster it is reasonable to not use it as an automatic xp generator, but it is a very useful metric for comparing the assigned xps of different monsters. I figure that if the assigned xp is more than about 3 times off the calculated xp then something is wrong. The calculated xp for the demi-lich is 14683 - an order of magnitude below the assigned 500,000. Quite a few of the new monsters seem to have xp that are way out of kilter with the other monsters. Some time soon I'll go through all the monsters and post a list of the ones I think need changing. > Anyone have knowledge in AI? I would love to see the monsters be much > smarter. I myself have no programming knowledge in it, but am taking > a really great AI class next semester. A row of bullet walls has > scummed many maps with dumb monsters sitting in front of them. Shouldn't > bullet walls have friendly flags set so the monsters tear them down? > > Karim > As I work at the Australian AI Institute I guess you could say I have some knowledge of AI 8-). The main problem with making monsters smarter is computational time. We already have a few heuristics which are quick and have made the monsters a bit faster (like making them run away when badly injured). It is probably reasonable to make a few special monsters smarter so we don't chew up too much time while adding some challenging opponents. I would also like to see a better parser added for NPC interaction, but that will need some serious thought and work done on it as we can't change the method of NPC interaction too often or we lose too much work put into maps. Rupert -- Rupert G. Goldie, Research Scientist rgg@aaii.oz.au Australian Artificial Intelligence Institute /\/\|| Level 6, 171 Latrobe Street, Melbourne, Australia From crossfire-request Wed May 25 10:39:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:39:11 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <02248-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 25 May 1994 09:39:05 +0100 Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:39:02 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405250839.AA01155@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Suggestions for crossfire change. Status: RO > I brainstormed while re-reading a number of posts and thought > of the following suggestions for crossfire change... > > limit magical bonuses from prepare weapon scrolls > attributes +4 and natural +6 don't know about speed,weight,damage... I think this is going to be absolutely necessary. > limit a players total magical bonuses (from equipment worn) to > their level, and the total magical bonus of carried weapons > to some multiple of this (Frodo struggled with on ring of > invisibility, but my character carries around 13 rings) > ex- my wiz is carrying: amulet ac+2, taifu+3, ring con+1 wis+1 > speed +1, ring of Ice, chainmail+3, helmet+2, shield+2; thats > +16 and I am only 9th level. I can see the reasoning behind this, but perhaps the fault lies on being able to get hold of all these things in the first place? > Assume some level dependent training. Fighters wc and damage > increases per level should be greater than a wizards (whose > might be 0), Wizards could automatically learn spells with > a level increase. Guilds would have to be implemented to > delay these bonuses until after melee. I like this idea. > Sell/purchase differences in classes. Fighters should know more > about purchasing weapons/shields/armour, Wizards about wands/ > spellbooks/scrolls, Clerics about potions, thieves about gems. Also a good idea - makes the distinction between the classes more rich and interesting... > Fix charisma bonuses. The difference between 10-30 charisma > should be ~50%. People might invest in charisma potions > and rings and stuff, but wizards wouldn't get such a huge > advantage for having 100 spell points and a charisma spell. Again agreed. My only concern is that this may make charisma almost a redundant stat. Is ther another way that the stat could be utilised? Perhaps having a high charisma would help against certain types of spell effect, like fear or something? I know - why not add a few "charm" based spells, where a charmed character or monster walks around randomly and slowly for a short period of time - similar in a way to running away when affected by a fear spell. A high char would give increased resistence to charm based spells... Just an idea. Sy PS I'm excited about the way Crossfire is going - it's great! From crossfire-request Wed May 25 10:29:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:29:17 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <01818-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 25 May 1994 09:29:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:29:11 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405250829.AA01148@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Status: RO > I've made this proposal before, but I've let it rest > because there didn't seem much support for it. But in light > of the recent class arguments I'll fire it off again. > ***************************************************************** ......... > My immediate plans: ( I don't regard these changes as controversial) > > 1) Put in the spell failure which is dependent on encumbrance with > weapons and armour > > 2) Add the new clerical spells (Banishment, cause wounds....) > (Cause wounds are going to be missile spells like bullet, but > will use the cancellation bitmap. I think it'd look cool.) > > 3) Remove the ability of no-magic areas to ban clerical spells. > (Remember, clerics won't have most offensive spells.) > > Comments? > Questions? > Support? > Suggestions? > Objections? I like all of this idea! The changes you mention doing now would be great, and I'm all in favour of the more radical ideas too. It would be fun to have the classes significantly different. Sy From crossfire-request Wed May 25 12:15:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 12:14:53 +0200 Received: from nagambie.aaii.oz.AU by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au with SMTP (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA03816; Wed, 25 May 1994 18:27:05 +1000 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 18:27:05 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405250827.AA03816@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO > From: KARIM SANJABI > > I really believe that xfire should be designed around a group, > multi user idea. I have very high hopes for xfire becoming a > true multi user game, where it is more beneficial, and fun to > play with other people, instead of just "scum maps by yourself." We > have tried to make maps with a party system in mind (multiple > levers that need > 1 person, monsters with immune physical in > one part of the dungeon, immune magic in another) but no matter > how extreme we go, the same 20th level priest/magic user can > race through it no problem. I think that class distinctions should > be very major, I would like to see this done realistically though. > > Karim > > While I think there should be lots of effort put into making Crossfire a good multi-player game, I do not think we should abandon the solo player. For various reasons people can't always play multi-player. I much prefer playing multi-player, but there are often times when it simply isn't possible, so I want to be able to play and enjoy Crossfire solo. Certainly it should be more difficult playing solo, but it shouldn't be impossible. Rupert From crossfire-request Wed May 25 10:21:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 10:21:13 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <01532-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 25 May 1994 09:21:02 +0100 Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:21:00 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405250821.AA01143@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes Status: RO > >A wizard is someone who is naturally more attuned to the mystic arts. > Why? Because he is called a wizard? I'm much more of the "a character > is what he acts like" point of view. If you play a character in such > a way as to develop fighting skills: i.e., wearing armour, quaffing > str,dex,con potions, having monstrous weapons, then, by God, that character > IS a fighter. I'd say it was the other way around. My natural abilities are intellectual; no matter how hard I try I will not be as good an athlete or as competitive in sport as some of my friends. Similarly, my friends may not be able to deal with the research that I do, no matter how much tutoring and training they may receive from even the best tutors in the world. So, I am more inclined to follow careers they may in some way be classed as "intellectual", and up to now this has meant I have been an academic. My natural skills steered me toward my career. I did not decide I was going to be an academic then start to exercise my brain so that I could do the job. So it should be with wizards and fighters. A character is a wizard BECAUSE he is more in tune with magic. The skill comes first, leading on to the career. I think the problem lies in the fact that we have a simplified system for calculating results of actions from a characters stats. Drinking a potion may make you stronger or more intelligent, but no-one would claim that this would naturally make you a better fighter or magician. A fighter who presumably trains in melee techniques should be more effective in combat than a character of any other class, even if they have the same strength - this is like the THAC0 system in AD&D. Being a fighter MEANS you do spend all your time training for melee - that is your job, as that is where your natural skills lie - otherwise you wouldn't have been a fighter in the first place. Quaffing potions is no substitute for this - why should you be as good a fighter as Bruce Lee just because you are as strong etc as him? He gained his abilities from all the training he does as a fighter; his ability does NOT just depend simply on his strength or reflexes. What does everyone think about this kind of idea? Sy PS Another thought - in AD&D (can you guess what RPG I play!?) PCs can only use weapons they are proficient in - other weapons can be used but at a penalty. I wonder if we could incorperate this idea into Crossfire, or indeed, if it would be desirable? Perhaps the guilds could train you in the use of a weapon for a small(?) payment - weapons could be grouped in some way - slashing swords, piercing swords, polearms etc, and as a character pays for proficiency of a particular category this fact is recorded in the player file. As a weapon is wielded, a proficiency check is made to test whether the wielder should be penalised in using that weapon. Perhaps even specialisation could be allowed - paying for the same proficiency more than once would improve how good you were at that weapon - although we'd have to limit this in some way. I'd say this would be a more realistic way of increasing weapon skill and power than all this improve scroll business, which everyone seems to agree is being taken a lot too far. The guilds could like like the bank of Skud inside, with tables labelled "drop 500 Platinum to be trained in using slashing swords" etc. Everyone would start out with a certain number of proficiencies, dependent on class - fighters should get the most weapon proficiencies etc. Just an idea anyway... From crossfire-request Wed May 25 08:48:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:48:02 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA13633 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 23:47:37 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA17058 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 23:47:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 23:47:36 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405250647.AA17058@bolero.rahul.net> To: mehlhaff@crl.com, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, john@soda.berkeley.edu, kenji@soda.berkeley.edu, mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu, mlee@soda.berkeley.edu, nevman@soda.berkeley.edu, raytrace@soda.berkeley.edu, retnuh@soda.berkeley.edu, smurf@soda.berkeley.edu Status: RO Yes, ideally there would be several different class implementations, and you select the one you want. However, everything is greatly interrelated. If you change it so that different classes get different ability bonuses for the same ability at the same level (ie, a mage with a 20 int gets more spell casting bonuses than a fighter with a 20 int), that quickly means re-doing most of the common/living.c file. Changing spell learning or how good a class casts a spell changes areas in apply.c and the spells.c file. I don't know if I am willing to put that much work into separating everything out. It would be a pretty substantial project. In fact, it would probably be a major re-write of a lot of the code. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 25 08:40:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:40:23 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA13340 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 23:40:20 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA16823 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 23:40:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 23:40:19 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405250640.AA16823@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, haavarl@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: oh, no, no, no.... Status: RO That addition is not part of the standard distribution, and thus was add only at that site. When I add maps, I do look over them, and try and make sure that the treasure is not excessive, or that the map does not have any major problems. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 25 08:25:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from yrsa.ifi.uio.no (haavarl@yrsa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.104.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:25:02 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Lindheim?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from haavarl@localhost) by yrsa.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:25:00 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 08:24:59 +0200 To: crossfire Subject: oh, no, no, no.... Message-ID: Status: RO A new town with a collection of maps have just been added. The town that lies inside the white mountain, right north of Navar. I think it used to be 'Neftekamsk' in an older version, and the maps are named /thomasd/... There are WAY TOO MANY ARTIFACTS!!!!!!! ...and, they are way too easy to find. If you have the 'dimension door' spell anyway. I mean, in one hut, you have to fight maybe 15 vampires, some acid spheres, two trees and one rustmonster... And what are your reward? As following: Girdle, str/con Girdle, con Girdle, str Girdle, dam Dragonmail +3 Stealthboots Levitationboots Speedboots Reflectorshield Helmet of X-rays Helmet of Brilliance 2 amulets of Lifesaving Stormbringer Firebrand (and some scrolls and other 'minor items') I mean, you take a guy up to 12th level, get the dimension door, go to the place, and WHUPS you have all the equipment. Don't anyone look at the maps before they are used in the game? ...also there are a few other maps with artifacts that I consider a bit easy... Hmmm.... Is this just here in Norway, or has this map been added elsewhere? H-- From crossfire-request Wed May 25 08:25:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from crl2.crl.com (crl2.crl.com [165.113.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:25:32 +0200 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl2.crl.com with SMTP id AA11158 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 23:23:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250623.AA11158@crl2.crl.com> To: Peter Mardahl Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu, smurf@soda.berkeley.edu, raytrace@soda.berkeley.edu, mlee@soda.berkeley.edu, john@soda.berkeley.edu, kenji@soda.berkeley.edu, retnuh@soda.berkeley.edu, nevman@soda.berkeley.edu, mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal In-Reply-To: Message from Peter Mardahl of Tue, 24 May 1994 14:41:38 -0700 <199405242141.OAA15296@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 23:23:33 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Peter Mardahl recently wrote: > >I've made this proposal before, but I've let it rest >because there didn't seem much support for it. But in light >of the recent class arguments I'll fire it off again. >*********************************************************** > >Proposal: Establish 4 Experience divisions > >Priest * Mage * Fighter * Thief > > What you do determines how you accumulate experience in a division. This leads me into one of the major problems I have about crossfire. Lately, most of the discussion has been abut gameplay mechanics thigns. Frankly, everyone here is going to have vastly different opinions about this. Right now I can see a discussion going on between the strong class-differentiation and weak-or-no class-differentiation camps. There's good points and bad points to either. Getting everyone to agree on one or the other just isn't going to happen. There's too many differing opinions on how what the best, most playable, way to model our little crossfire reality. Really, what would be best to do would be to put all the game-play mechanics aside, perhaps in their own directory, for the individual server admins to customize as they see fit. Generalize the rules and action tests of teh game as much as possible in the core source, and let the 'game-play' library decide how whether these succeed or not. Then we're writing a metagame, and then everyone can tune the game running under the metagame however they want. For example, let's say a player tries to put on an object, let's say some armour. In my example, you'd call a function to see, first, if they are permitted to (for whatever race/class/social-standing/legal reasons). Then run some core-system function to put it on them (update weight, mark it as worn, etc), and then some game-play function to do when they put it on. The primary problems with this is that soo much of the gameplay-rules are already scattered randomly about the server source, and the player and object structs are such a mess, that this would be hard to clean up. The cynic in me says, however, that we'll just end up with a stupid class system, since its so much easier to code. And then we'll have splinter groups trying to write much saner game systems. It'd be nicer, however, if it was easier to keep them all together with the same core source. I say this all because, quite frankly, I'm not in the 'classes' camp. I only play D&D when I want to show how ridiculous that game is. D&D is simple to make it playable. We DONT need to do that here, because we've got this wonderful computerized DM to handle all the annoying little details. Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:47:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:47:03 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id WAA21921; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:46:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250546.WAA21921@soda.berkeley.edu> To: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 1994 01:09:01 EDT." <9405250509.AA11722@nova.gmi.edu> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 22:46:54 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <9405250509.AA11722@nova.gmi.edu>, akshay srinivasan writes: >Are there any patches for the PARTY system so that a bunch of us can go on que >sts and share the experience and the money (give xxxx coins to yyyyy command). Smurf here at Berkeley is working on the party system. He's revised it to add flexibility. I should encourage him to finish it up. Everyone else leave the party system alone, until smurf's done. :) > Also will the characters have skills so that the guilds can then be useful. We're currently arguing about that. Jump in. > Why can't players weild 2 weapons instead of a shield and a weapon. Just som because nobody has done it, and it might not be a good idea.... (oh, heck, i should have added shields to encumbrance of spells. Well, it's not too late....) >e things that would be nice to have. I am trying to hack the drop command so >that players can drop a specific number of items from a stack of say 3000 plat Stop!!! Stop!!!! This is already DONE!!!!! You CAN do this RIGHT NOW! you type the number, and then use the mouse to drop that number of whatever. >inum. I think this is why players wont play in groups as there is no easy way > to share expeirience and money that is made in the quest. The party system that is currently in crossfire works fine for sharing experience. As a matter of fact, it works SO WELL, that one member of the party can hang around the home town, and sit around, and gain experience from other players' kills. (That'll get fixed soon, i hope.) regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:38:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:38:09 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id WAA21229; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:38:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250538.WAA21229@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Mark Wedel cc: brett@msc.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 22:02:22 PDT." <199405250502.AA11716@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 22:37:59 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405250502.AA11716@bolero.rahul.net>, Mark Wedel writes: > It seems to me that if you are going to use a skill system, that skill should >advance when there is danger. I see your point, now, and agree somewhat. I do think that practicing magic should be rewarded. Perhaps you could go for this: experience is awarded based on the highest skill level. This would have the interesting side effect of making it so that a 10th level character would have a VERY hard time picking up his 1st level skill areas. > Maybe it is just part of my beliefs as a DM (AD&D). I don't think a characte >r >should get much in the way of any experience for killing monsters if they >do it in a controlled fashion that is perfectly safe. > > For crossfire, it jsut seems to me that if you go to a skill system, people >will figure out how it works, find loppholes, and use it to their advantage. >As the system is now, there really are not any loopholes - you kill something, >you get exp. I never intended for the workings of the skill advancement system to be a mystery..... It is quite true that some of the skill advancement mechanisms need care. Perhaps healing should only count in difficult dungeons, etc. Or we can remove the 'clerics heal to get experience' thing entirely. That one can indeed be abused too readily, unless we have some rules like 'experience only awarded when in direct line-of sight with a dangerous monster'. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:17:01 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:17:00 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id WAA11478; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:16:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250516.WAA11478@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Mark Wedel cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 21:16:25 PDT." <199405250416.AA08797@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 22:16:52 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405250416.AA08797@bolero.rahul.net>, Mark Wedel writes: > One thought on starting equipment for any class/race is to just give >them a fair amount of money, and then let them buy what ever equipment >they want. > This would only be remotely fair if we took away the effect that charisma has on buying stuff. Otherwise, some classes would get really screwed. I really like the money idea, and would support it if the charisma bonuses were less extreme! > The reason I really don't like different skill areas is that players >will quickly figure out (or look at the code) what to do in order to >get EXP in that area. I remember there was an old game for the Apple ][ Eh? My whole intention was to make it entirely clear to everyone what to do to get exp! I don't want it mysterious to anyone. clerics get exp by destroying unholy monsters, and healing, mages by using magic to destroy their enemies, fighters by clever use of the sword, and thieves by using their skills! >which had such a system. It didn't take me that long to figure out, and I Hell, if i install this system, you can count on me documenting it and putting it in a file for newbies. I really don't want anything secret about it! >had my cleric casting spells on the other people, always had the theif >look for traps, and so on. I don't know if this would be good or bad heh! Sounds exactly like what i'd like to see. clerics being altruistic, (for selfish reasons, of course) and thieves carrying out their intended function. >for crossfire. I think what would happen is it would start to get abused. >Things like a medium level fighter wants to raise is magic using ability, >so he wonders into some fairly easy area, and starts casting burning >hands or whatever on everyone. Gets that experience, even though he could Sure, he's practicing his magic. Boning up on a valuable monster-killing skill in a low-risk area. Peopld right now do that just for general experience. The abuse won't be any worse under the new system. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:15:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:15:41 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09472 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 22:15:35 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA12413 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 22:15:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 22:15:35 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405250515.AA12413@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, srin9340@nova.gmi.edu Subject: Party & other stuff. Status: RO First note: I believe experience is divided up evenly (or fairly evenly) if in party mode. Second: If you want to share treasure, just have the person getting it drop the appropriate amount. You can already prefix a command with a count. Something like 300 'drop' will drop 300 of those objects. Also, quests are only really special in that they are just dungeons with a more defined goal than 'kill anything that moves'. Having code to weild two weapons would be a real mess to do. Don't expect to see it happen anytime soon (plus, since with low abilities you would incur bonuses, and high abilities, you probably wouldn't, it would make powerful characters that much more powerful). A character that could weild two artifact weapons would be incredibly powerful. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:06:01 1994 Return-Path: Received: from nova.gmi.edu (nova.gmi.edu [192.138.137.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:06:00 +0200 Received: from trofeo.gmi.edu by nova.gmi.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA11722; Wed, 25 May 94 01:09:01 EDT Date: Wed, 25 May 94 01:09:01 EDT From: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Message-Id: <9405250509.AA11722@nova.gmi.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO Are there any patches for the PARTY system so that a bunch of us can go on quests and share the experience and the money (give xxxx coins to yyyyy command). Also will the characters have skills so that the guilds can then be useful. Why can't players weild 2 weapons instead of a shield and a weapon. Just some things that would be nice to have. I am trying to hack the drop command so that players can drop a specific number of items from a stack of say 3000 platinum. I think this is why players wont play in groups as there is no easy way to share expeirience and money that is made in the quest. Have a nice day. Ripclaw (Lev 14; Maintainer) From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:08:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from netcom.com (netcom11.netcom.com [192.100.81.121]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:08:50 +0200 Received: by netcom.com (8.6.8.1/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA21446; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:08:53 -0700 From: huma@netcom.com (Ben Fennema) Message-Id: <199405250508.WAA21446@netcom.com> Subject: Classes To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 22:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4538 Status: RO As long as everyone is on the subject of classes/races I might as well put in my own 2 cents... Okie, here's my idea... Screw ALL classes.. Dump em, blast em, flush em, etc... Instead, do this.. Let the player pick what he wants to be... When they create their character, let them role their stats, then let them custom design their class.. Pick their max stats/min stats, immunities, vulnerabilities, weapon use ability, armour use ability, etc... Of course, it will all have to equal out to zero. (or, maybee less than or greater than zero, but the ammount of exp needed to advance each level will be increased/reduced) Maybee even pick what happens to their ac/wc each level they go up and hit points/mana.... This will give the players the flexibility to design a character class exactly to their specifications... Lets say they want to play the awesomest mage in the universe.. Well, they may give themselves +10 to Int.. That will be ok... They just have to knock off 10 points from other stats (and that can really hurt)..... Though, we can't go making worthless stats then... (killing off charisma, etc) Immunities, protections, vulnerabilities, and such will each have a certain positive or negative value.. So that awesome mage might choose to not be allowed to wear armow instead of adding some or all of those -10 points to other stats and maybee be vulnerable to some other thing.... Also, all immunities need not be valued at the same... Immunity to say, fire, should cost more than immunity to drain and such (items can be found to provide immunity to drain, while no items can be found to provide immunity to fire) Same goes for the vulnerabilities.. Vulnerabiility to fire should be worth much mmore than vulnerability to draining since the same is true... (If your immune, I don't thhink being vulnerable does anything, though I could be wrong, and then you could ignore this example) Well, thats my 2 cents about races/classes etc.... 1 think I've noticed was nobody complained about charisma spells before you could caast it multiple times and use cursed items to get it low so it would go up more for cheaper..... Maybee all charisma spells should be added to one item (every time you cast a charimsa spell it adds say 100 to some sstrange variable in the item) Then that item takes the value of the item + your charsima and figures out how much to give you.. Then if your charimsa changes (eh, goes up) it re- computes and thus youu get less charisma... Problem is to get the thing to recompute the value when yourr other charisma items change... Another thing about Crossfire and classes, is the way classes are done now makes it unique.. You don't have to be STUPPID FIGHTER GUY if you started out as one.. You can play your character howerver you want, without being set by some guy who said Mages can't wear armor because, becuase, uh...it interfears with their spell casting.. Ya, thats the ticket.... [So does that mean if you get enclosed in walls of iron you can't cast spells? -- Hey, its Superman && Kryptanite.. Wee, sue Gary Gygax for Copywrite Infringment] ..... I do agree that prepare weapon (and all its variants) can be pretty damn powerfull, and after a certain point, money becomes pointless, and your power is determine not by what class or how much money you have, but what nifty artifacts you've found (bought)... Oh thing is, Enchant Weapon scrolls are supposed to be effectively artifacts.. And thus should be rare... When wasas the last timne you found 35 holy avengers or 35 Excaliburs? Should have the same chance to find 35 of those as to find 35 enchant weapon scrolls.. Things like that, if set in the map, should be REALLY DAMN hard to get to... Killing 1 dragon doesn't cut it folks.... Once you have money, killing 1 dragon is easy (potion of fire resistance) If you cast protection from attack, your effectively immune to the dragon till they wear off ... And if you can't, just run around him... Off the subject, is it just me, or do dragons breath a lot less than they used too?? Now, I can kill a dragon with only being breathed on 1 time, while before they would breath on my 10-20 times (in the same frame of time)... *shrug* Need some guidelines to say what you should HAVE to defeat to get certain artifacts, or any artifact in general... I'm not saying that running around a dragon (not a easy feat) Shouldn't be rewarded at all, but by a Enchant Weapon scroll??? *shrug* Well, I'm sure I'll think of something later.... --Huma From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:05:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from noc.msc.edu (noc.msc.edu [137.66.12.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:05:42 +0200 Received: from uh.msc.edu by noc.msc.edu (5.65/MSC/v3.0.1(920324)) id AA02063; Wed, 25 May 94 00:05:17 -0500 Received: by uh.msc.edu (5.65/MSC/v3.1r(920220)) id AA17793; Wed, 25 May 94 00:05:35 -0500 Message-Id: <9405250505.AA17793@uh.msc.edu> To: Mark Wedel Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 22:02:22 PDT." <199405250502.AA11716@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 00:05:32 -0500 From: Brett Rabe Status: RO > It seems to me that if you are going to use a skill system, that skill should >advance when there is danger. > > Maybe it is just part of my beliefs as a DM (AD&D). I don't think a character >should get much in the way of any experience for killing monsters if they >do it in a controlled fashion that is perfectly safe. > > For crossfire, it jsut seems to me that if you go to a skill system, people >will figure out how it works, find loppholes, and use it to their advantage. >As the system is now, there really are not any loopholes - you kill something, >you get exp. > > --Mark Thanks... your point makes much more sense to me now. *slap forehead* -brett From crossfire-request Wed May 25 07:02:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 07:02:41 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09036 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 22:02:23 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA11716 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 22:02:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 22:02:22 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405250502.AA11716@bolero.rahul.net> To: brett@msc.edu, master@rahul.net Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Status: RO It seems to me that if you are going to use a skill system, that skill should advance when there is danger. Maybe it is just part of my beliefs as a DM (AD&D). I don't think a character should get much in the way of any experience for killing monsters if they do it in a controlled fashion that is perfectly safe. For crossfire, it jsut seems to me that if you go to a skill system, people will figure out how it works, find loppholes, and use it to their advantage. As the system is now, there really are not any loopholes - you kill something, you get exp. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 25 06:55:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from noc.msc.edu (noc.msc.edu [137.66.12.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 06:55:18 +0200 Received: from uh.msc.edu by noc.msc.edu (5.65/MSC/v3.0.1(920324)) id AA01041; Tue, 24 May 94 23:54:59 -0500 Received: by uh.msc.edu (5.65/MSC/v3.1r(920220)) id AA17569; Tue, 24 May 94 23:55:10 -0500 Message-Id: <9405250455.AA17569@uh.msc.edu> To: Mark Wedel Cc: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 21:16:25 PDT." <199405250416.AA08797@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 23:55:07 -0500 From: Brett Rabe Status: RO > The reason I really don't like different skill areas is that players >will quickly figure out (or look at the code) what to do in order to >get EXP in that area. I remember there was an old game for the Apple ][ >which had such a system. It didn't take me that long to figure out, and I >had my cleric casting spells on the other people, always had the theif >look for traps, and so on. I don't know if this would be good or bad >for crossfire. I think what would happen is it would start to get abused. >Things like a medium level fighter wants to raise is magic using ability, >so he wonders into some fairly easy area, and starts casting burning >hands or whatever on everyone. Gets that experience, even though he could >do a better job by killing them in hand to hand. > > --Mark Mark, can you expand on this? I'm not sure I understand why you think it's a bad idea. . . . Using the example you listed above . . . . yes, the fighter could wade in and pound heads with his axe (preferred weapon for myself :), but if he's in there practicing magic, then he deserves to advance in the 'magical realm', regardless of the fact that he would have an easier time bashing the ogre heads with his aforementioned axe. Anyway, just wanting you to clarify . . . . -brett From crossfire-request Wed May 25 06:16:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 06:16:32 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06087 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 21:16:26 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA08797 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 21:16:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 21:16:25 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405250416.AA08797@bolero.rahul.net> To: master@rahul.net, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO One thought on starting equipment for any class/race is to just give them a fair amount of money, and then let them buy what ever equipment they want. How things are right now is greatly unequal in terms of value of starting equipment. Some classes get 3 or 4 spellbooks, while others get leather armour, a weapon, and a shield. By giving them some amount of gold (same for all classes), they can then choose what to get. Those that want to be a fighter will obviously go for the better armour and weapons (probably being able to even afford magical stuff). That mage could perhaps buy 2 spellbooks, and nothing more. This is sort of like AD&D, where under normal rules, starting characters get so much money. The reason I really don't like different skill areas is that players will quickly figure out (or look at the code) what to do in order to get EXP in that area. I remember there was an old game for the Apple ][ which had such a system. It didn't take me that long to figure out, and I had my cleric casting spells on the other people, always had the theif look for traps, and so on. I don't know if this would be good or bad for crossfire. I think what would happen is it would start to get abused. Things like a medium level fighter wants to raise is magic using ability, so he wonders into some fairly easy area, and starts casting burning hands or whatever on everyone. Gets that experience, even though he could do a better job by killing them in hand to hand. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 25 05:35:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 05:35:55 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id UAA11731; Tue, 24 May 1994 20:35:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250335.UAA11731@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Mark Wedel cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 19:57:53 PDT." <199405250257.AA02708@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 20:35:41 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405250257.AA02708@bolero.rahul.net>, Mark Wedel writes: > In fact, I think that is at least one problem with the game. Most all >other related games have some ending goal, and crossfire has none. As such, >people will play characters in crossfire long after there are few challenges >left. There are challenges that higher level chars would find difficult. They're not placed in the game right now. Nowhere are there beelzebub's, nowhere are there titans which aren't hamstrung by geography, demon lords similarly have lame lairs..... Challenges for higher level chars is a map-making issue. We can always soup up existing monsters with the map editor. > Raising stats and maxing them out: I personally really don't want to >add code that requires drinking more than one potion to raise a stat >1 point. This would mean that keeping track of how many potions for that >stat ahs been consumed, and would just seem to make things messier. I strongly agree with Mark here. It would be a nightmare. > The biggest problem I see in any change is getting everyone to agree. >Some (like myself) seem to think that the present system isn't too bad. It's not, actually. I think it'd just be fun to stick my system in, and might help a great deal toward eventually (*gasp*) actually balancing the game. > If I was to do a change, it would be like the following: >1) Race determines max abilities, stat adjustments, and perhaps some >base abilities (protections or vulnerabilites). I can go with this! Seconded! (And hey, it's already installed, except for our bizarre definition of 'races' as wizards, clerics, swashbucklers, ... instead of trolls, halflings, humans, ....) >2) Class would determine starting equipment and what hte class does. Startequpiment! Another issue i didn't address. Perhaps startequipment should be chosen based on an assumption of the character's class from his maximum stat. High int--> mage, high strength--> fighter, high dex --> thief, High wis --> priest. I really would NOT like to see actual classes. Skill areas, yes, classes no. Ability to advance in a skill area should be independent of everything save stats and racial predisposition. Everyone should have all skills, but to varying degree, like it is now. >3) The experience multiplier would be used for certain races or classes. >In this way, a paladin would advance more slowly than a straight fighter. >The experience multiplier might also apply to some races. With four skill divisions, we can taylor the experience to advance in each area to balance the game. Mages should require mondo amounts of experience to advance. Fighters not so much, clerics between the two, and thieves perhaps least. > Also, add class or race specific items. OR maybe make them work better This would be difficult, I'll use your messiness argument idea on you. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 05:11:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 05:10:46 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id UAA29791; Tue, 24 May 1994 20:10:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250310.UAA29791@soda.berkeley.edu> To: jimdipalma@ptc.com (Jim Dipalma) cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Suggestions for crossfire change. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 21:10:43 EDT." <9405250110.AA01644@taz> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 20:10:27 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO >limit magical bonuses from prepare weapon scrolls > attributes +4 and natural +6 don't know about speed,weight,damage... I hope this is on someone's todo list. >limit a players total magical bonuses (from equipment worn) to I don't much like this idea.... Magical bonuses are too vague, this would be hard to gather. >Change max ability levels based upon class. Fighters should have > increased max hit points, wizards should have increased max > spell points. I disagree with this one. :) Under my proposal, class is obsolete, skill areas are all that exist. >Devise minor abilities/skills for each class. Fighters should be > harder to scare in battle protection from fear. RACE's would have minor the minor abilities. It'd be inborn in them as what they are. >Assume some level dependent training. Fighters wc and damage I'm opposed to requiring the existence of a map with a guild in it for advancement. Right now, characters don't NEED anything besides a savebed. Stores, etc. can all be dispensed with. I like this flexibility. >Equipment switching delay. If a character switches armour then Definitely. This should have been done long ago.... >Fix charisma bonuses. The difference between 10-30 charisma > should be ~50%. People might invest in charisma potions > and rings and stuff, but wizards wouldn't get such a huge > advantage for having 100 spell points and a charisma spell. I second this. Charisma is the ONLY stat that people are complaining about being able to use spells to max-out. Let's lessen the rewards for high charisma, and lessen the punishment for low. Regards, PeterM P.S., spell failure based on encumbrance with weapons and armour has been done. From crossfire-request Wed May 25 04:58:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 04:57:59 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA02020 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 19:57:55 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA02708 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no); Tue, 24 May 1994 19:57:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 19:57:53 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405250257.AA02708@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experiece. Status: RO Just several notes on the last 20 or so messages: Super weapons: As the code is now, a player can not use a weapon that has been enchanted their level +5. So if people out there have +30 Taifus, it means they must be at least level 35 (and had to find 35 enchant weapon scrolls). Likewise, if it is giving +10 to a stat, either they used a lot of potions in one casting (200 to be exact), or used the improve stat bonus scroll several times. In either case, I don't know if it is a major problem./ If you are level 35, even without a super weapon, there are probably very few challenges left, and you just might as well retire the character. In fact, I think that is at least one problem with the game. Most all other related games have some ending goal, and crossfire has none. As such, people will play characters in crossfire long after there are few challenges left. Raising stats and maxing them out: I personally really don't want to add code that requires drinking more than one potion to raise a stat 1 point. This would mean that keeping track of how many potions for that stat ahs been consumed, and would just seem to make things messier. Also, I am not sure how much I like the idea of making it exponentially harder above a certain point. Because it would mean that the huma (with all abilities of a max of 20) would have a much easier time maxing out all his abilities compared to some class whose max ability is 28. The biggest problem I see in any change is getting everyone to agree. Some (like myself) seem to think that the present system isn't too bad. Others want to make major changes, and other people more minor changes. If I was to do a change, it would be like the following: 1) Race determines max abilities, stat adjustments, and perhaps some base abilities (protections or vulnerabilites). 2) Class would determine starting equipment and what hte class does. Fighters would have a better WC, and it would improve faster. Only cleric classes could cast cleric spells, same for mage classes. Certain classes may also get innate abilities. There would also be classes which are really mergers of two classes (paladin = fighter + mage, etc). In general, hit points would be the same for all classes. 3) The experience multiplier would be used for certain races or classes. In this way, a paladin would advance more slowly than a straight fighter. The experience multiplier might also apply to some races. In a sense, this is a lot like how Omega did it. It gives much stronger class types than what exists right now, but if you choose the right class, you can pretty much do everything a character now could do, you just might advance much slower. Also, add class or race specific items. OR maybe make them work better for some classes. For example, an elf wearing a cloak of elvenkind would get better bonuses. Maybe only paladins would get the full bonuses for holy avengers. The problem with this (as it is now), is really keeping track of what the alternative bonuses should be (I suppose to archetyps (multiple) archetypes oculd be used, with a a field stating what class can use this. If no match, then only that specific class can use it. If one has a general field (ie, everyone can), then there could be two archetypes. If the class matches, that is used, if not, then the one allowed for general usage is used. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 25 04:44:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Wed, 25 May 1994 04:44:02 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id TAA27806; Tue, 24 May 1994 19:43:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250243.TAA27806@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 1994 02:49:34 +0200." <199405250049.12634.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 19:43:56 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405250049.12634.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no>, Kjetil Torgrim Homm e writes: >It sounds fine to me! > >According to my reading, a character can mix clerical and magical >spells freely in theory. What I don't like is that since you have two >pools, "grace" and "mana", players will be encouraged to exploit them >both to their full (ie. to become something in between priest and >mage). Is there anything except from cosmetic reasons to split >spellpoints in two? I was going to keep the total of mana and grace constant by reducing mana somewhat. Grace would be a much smaller pool. I think that grace and mana are fundamentally different. I don't see why the ability to channel god-power and produce magical effect should come from the same place.... It is the god's strength that you are using, not your own. I was planning a 2/3 1/3 split between mana and grace.... Also, and important point: it is possible for grace to go negative. Just that spell failure goes through the roof. This is fundamentally different from mana.... >Hey -- I had an idea. Let's calculate a quantity of magic to be >divided between "mana" and "grace" based on the power stat, call it >Q. The player has values C and M for doing clerical and magical >things respectively. I had a vague idea of making grace depend on Wis and Power, and mana depend only on Power. The god's favor the wise, but your magical strength is inborn and independent of how smart you are. Intelligence would then determine spell-learning ability, as wisdom would Prayer-learning ability. > >Season the formulas to taste. The main point is that you should get >more magic power (total) by specializing. Hmm. I hadn't actually thought about making a tradeoff between mana size and grace size. I had only envisioned the two of them depending like this: grace wis, priest level, power mana mage level power On the surface of it, it seems rather bizarre to me to be advancing in priest level and watch your mana go down! And for this reason, I would argue against it. I think it's sufficient to force characters to advance levels in each division to gain their mana/grace. Advancement is a tricky issue. How do we advance players? How do we advance their hp, actually? Mana and grace are clear. Same with wc and weapons speed. I guess a viable proposal would be to take the maximum level of the character, use THAT to compute hp as has been done before, with the con bonus as usual. More plugging for experience divisions: we can make it harder for mages to advance in level than fighters. This is MUCH NEEDED. Funny thing is that i massacre monsters by the roomfull with my wizard, and become a better fighter. :) Senseless. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 04:32:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from edison.eng.auburn.edu (edison.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 04:31:58 +0200 Received: from zero.eng.auburn.edu (zero.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.31.7]) by edison.eng.auburn.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id VAA08561; Tue, 24 May 1994 21:31:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (dyessww@localhost) by zero.eng.auburn.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id VAA02141; Tue, 24 May 1994 21:31:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 21:29:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Dyess Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal To: Peter Mardahl cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405242141.OAA15296@soda.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO [4 class system described] > Comments? > Questions? > Support? > Suggestions? > Objections? I REALLY like this idea. That is the game I want to play. --Bill From crossfire-request Wed May 25 03:09:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 03:09:38 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA00572; Tue, 24 May 94 21:08:44 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA01644; Tue, 24 May 94 21:10:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 May 94 21:10:43 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405250110.AA01644@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Suggestions for crossfire change. content-length: 1992 Status: RO I brainstormed while re-reading a number of posts and thought of the following suggestions for crossfire change... limit magical bonuses from prepare weapon scrolls attributes +4 and natural +6 don't know about speed,weight,damage... limit a players total magical bonuses (from equipment worn) to their level, and the total magical bonus of carried weapons to some multiple of this (Frodo struggled with on ring of invisibility, but my character carries around 13 rings) ex- my wiz is carrying: amulet ac+2, taifu+3, ring con+1 wis+1 speed +1, ring of Ice, chainmail+3, helmet+2, shield+2; thats +16 and I am only 9th level. Change max ability levels based upon class. Fighters should have increased max hit points, wizards should have increased max spell points. Devise minor abilities/skills for each class. Fighters should be harder to scare in battle..protection from fear. Assume some level dependent training. Fighters wc and damage increases per level should be greater than a wizards (whose might be 0), Wizards could automatically learn spells with a level increase. Guilds would have to be implemented to delay these bonuses until after melee. Sell/purchase differences in classes. Fighters should know more about purchasing weapons/shields/armour, Wizards about wands/ spellbooks/scrolls, Clerics about potions, thieves about gems. Equipment switching delay. If a character switches armour then they should transition through a periods of NO armour(original armour can be immediately put back on until new armour is fully on; accidental clicking is a problem with or without this feature). Delay should be armour dependent. Fix charisma bonuses. The difference between 10-30 charisma should be ~50%. People might invest in charisma potions and rings and stuff, but wizards wouldn't get such a huge advantage for having 100 spell points and a charisma spell. -jim From crossfire-request Wed May 25 02:49:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Wed, 25 May 1994 02:49:35 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 25 May 1994 02:49:34 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 02:49:34 +0200 Message-Id: <199405250049.12634.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu, raytrace@soda.berkeley.edu, mlee@soda.berkeley.edu, john@soda.berkeley.edu, retnuh@soda.berkeley.edu, nevman@soda.berkeley.edu In-reply-to: Peter Mardahl's message of Tue, 24 May 1994 14:41:38 -0700 <199405242141.OAA15296@soda.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Status: RO It sounds fine to me! According to my reading, a character can mix clerical and magical spells freely in theory. What I don't like is that since you have two pools, "grace" and "mana", players will be encouraged to exploit them both to their full (ie. to become something in between priest and mage). Is there anything except from cosmetic reasons to split spellpoints in two? Hey -- I had an idea. Let's calculate a quantity of magic to be divided between "mana" and "grace" based on the power stat, call it Q. The player has values C and M for doing clerical and magical things respectively. Mp (mana-proportion) == (2M/C)^2 Gp (grace-propotion) == (2C/M)^2 Mp * Q Gp * Q mana == ------------- grace == ------------- Mp + Gp + 1 Mp + Gp + 1 C == M: (a perfect mix between mage and priest) The "mana" and "grace" pools will be equally large (Q/3). Wasted Q: one third. C == 0.5M: Mp == (2M/0.5M)^2 == 16Q, Gp == (2*0.5M/M) = 1Q mana == 7/8 Q, grace == 1/16 Q Wasted Q: one sixteenth. Season the formulas to taste. The main point is that you should get more magic power (total) by specializing. Kjetil T. (formulas are fun :-) From crossfire-request Wed May 25 02:17:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 02:17:54 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id RAA08854 for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 17:17:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199405250017.RAA08854@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: object structure and player structure Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:17:42 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO I've noticed that several things which could go in the player structure are in the object structure in structs.h. There are lots of objects, but very few players, yes? So we really should stick everything possible in the player structure? I'm talking about things which are specific to the player..... Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 25 00:58:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from yrsa.ifi.uio.no (haavarl@yrsa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.104.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 00:58:02 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Lindheim?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from haavarl@localhost) by yrsa.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 25 May 1994 00:58:01 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 00:57:59 +0200 To: crossfire Subject: random_misc bug Message-ID: Status: RO Turns out that the random_artifact etc. behaves like a chest... ??? H-- From crossfire-request Wed May 25 00:50:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from yrsa.ifi.uio.no (haavarl@yrsa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.104.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 00:49:59 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Lindheim?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from haavarl@localhost) by yrsa.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 25 May 1994 00:49:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 00:49:56 +0200 To: crossfire Subject: bug in map Message-ID: Status: RO Well, not a pug, rather an error: Map /thomasd/svi.3 On the map there are two random_spell-squares, and one random_artifact-square. Actually on the playing map, that is, they are not converted into objects. (They are when you pick them up, though...) H-- From crossfire-request Wed May 25 00:26:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 00:26:11 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 25 May 1994 00:26:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 00:26:09 +0200 Message-Id: <199405242226.9485.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: KARIM SANJABI's message of Tue, 24 May 1994 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT) <199405242018.NAA07410@pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO +--- Karim Sanjabi: | hmm, I don't think so, I think that the majority of the chico maps | that we play were included with the standard distribution. Yeah I know -- there are a lot of unbalanced maps in the standard distribution. I'm not blaming Mark, either :-) ++--- Kjetil T. Homme: || [I suggest that players should quaff an exponential number of || potions to increase a stat] || +--- Karim Sanjabi: | Cool, i did not know about this table. Well, it is just a suggestion. It's pretty trivial to add, though. Would you guys prefer the random element? +--- | One thing that I would also like to mention, is the enchant weapon | scolls. They unbalance the game entirely. YES! I have _never_ liked the enchant weapon scrolls. I didn't know that there was no limit to them though -- taifu +35 is insane. Here's one vote to _remove_ the prepare weapon and enchant weapon scrolls entirely. As far as I can remember, they were added to the game at the same time as the Superpotions, another munchkin feature (since removed?) +--- | Oh, and while I'm thinking about it ;) some monsters give out way | too many exp. Like demi-liches. 500000? I have seen a 25 level | barbarian wade through like 30 of them in one room no problem, then | he becomes 31st level or something. Be careful -- if you remove the very powerful custom weapons (cf. taifu +35), the award may be reasonable. I think it is great that balance is discussed -- it is very easy to let it fall by the wayside (I hope that was idiomatic :-) Kjetil T. From crossfire-request Tue May 24 23:55:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 24 May 1994 23:55:15 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id OAA17871; Tue, 24 May 1994 14:55:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199405242155.OAA17871@soda.berkeley.edu> To: KARIM SANJABI cc: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme), crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 13:18:40 PDT." <199405242018.NAA07410@pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:55:05 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO >Cool, i did not know about this table. One thing that I would also like >to mention, is the enchant weapon scolls. They unbalance the game >entirely. We have players, running around collecting all of the >diamons/booze/gems/whatever for days, then finally preparing the weapon. >We have +35 taifus, with +5 to each stat, 8 weapon speed, and damage >+35 or so. I'm not even going to mention a pair of nunchunks (sorry sp) >that have also been made. Could we put a prepare weapon limit on this? >I could do it if nobody else wants to. Youch. I was happy when I had my Taifu up to +20..... :) Of course, it has an absurd damage, and an absurd speed, and absurd bonuses! (Everything up to 30 on Ragnarok at UCB, all legit) The improve weapon stuff needs to be hamstrung. Who will do this? >Oh, and while I'm thinking about it ;) some monsters give out >way too many exp. Like demi-liches. 500000? I have seen a 25 level >barbarian wade through like 30 of them in one room no problem, then >he becomes 31st level or something. I think that there need to >be tougher monsters. I have taken monsters like the chineese dragon, liches, >and the Demon lord, given them almost every attack, protection, a few >immunes, and it is only a matter of seconds before they die. Was this WITH or WITHOUT your absurdly powerful weapon? >scummed many maps with dumb monsters sitting in front of them. Shouldn't >bullet walls have friendly flags set so the monsters tear them down? Hmmm. This is unfortunate. yes, they SHOULD have the friendly flags set, and perhaps those durned bullet walls should be more expensive to create. You wanna do this, karim? The appropriate code is in newspells.c under 'create_the_feature' or something. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Tue May 24 23:42:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 23:42:38 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id OAA15296; Tue, 24 May 1994 14:41:42 -0700 Message-Id: <199405242141.OAA15296@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no cc: mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu, smurf@soda.berkeley.edu, raytrace@soda.berkeley.edu, mlee@soda.berkeley.edu, john@soda.berkeley.edu, kenji@soda.berkeley.edu, retnuh@soda.berkeley.edu, nevman@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Classes, Race, Experience proposal Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:41:38 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO I've made this proposal before, but I've let it rest because there didn't seem much support for it. But in light of the recent class arguments I'll fire it off again. *********************************************************** Proposal: Establish 4 Experience divisions Priest * Mage * Fighter * Thief What you do determines how you accumulate experience in a division. What gains you experience, by division: Fighting: destroying monsters by means of weapons Magic: destroying monsters by means of magic Priest: destroying monsters by means of channeled god-power destroying undead by means of holy-word (2x experience!) destroying evil altars healing friendly players completion of priestly quests Thief: discovery of traps, disarming of traps, unlocking of locked chests and doors, pickpocketing of non-hostile monsters, killing monsters by means of backstabbing ****************************************************** Priests would become truly differerent. Instead of mana, priests would use 'grace'. Priests do not use their own power, but rather channel for their god. The higher the level of the priest, the better his wisdom, the more grace he would have in the eyes of his god. A priest may also be rewarded with grace for good deeds by his god. Priests would have healing spells, turn undead, holy word, and some defensive spells. Priests would not have offensive spells on the scale of those wizards have, except versus demons, undead, and generic unholy things. In practice, there would be a new stat, grace, like spellpoints ( which I'd like to rename 'mana'). How much grace you have would depend on one's wisdom, and another new stat 'power', like Wis Int, or Con... Learning Prayers would depend on wisdom only. Because priests are channeling god-power rather than using magic, priest spells would become exempt from no-magic areas. Also, magic-immune monsters would become vulnerable to god-power. A new type of area, 'unholy' would bar priest-spells. Unlike mana, grace could go negative. However, the lower your current grace, the more likely your god is to ignore you! Regeneration of grace would work like that of spellpoints (mana). New clerical spells: banishment (for demons and undead: outright kills them) cause light wounds cause medium wounds cause serious wounds sanctification (creates holy ground on which grace is regenerated quicker) sanctuary (creates an area where monsters cannot go) Weapons and armour would have no effect on clerical ability. (Aside from possible bonuses.) ******************************************************************* Mages would change less radically than priests. They are already well implemented in crossfire. They would be denied healing spells and protection spells, and other specifically clerical spells. Wisdom would mean nothing to mages any longer. Instead, learning mage spells would depend solely upon Intelligence, and mana would depend on the new stat, Power. Additionally, mages would have the handicap that if they are encumbered with 'stuff', they are less effective at spells. Heavy weapons, heavy armour, really would cause spell-failures. Mage spells would work perfectly fine in unholy areas. ******************************************************************* Fighters: Fighters gain exp by squishing monsters with weapons. However, these self-same weapons and armour that fighters love to use make them clumsy spellcasters. Clerical and fighting abilities are perfectly compatible, but thieves would suffer from encumbrance also.... ******************************************************************* Thiefs: These are the least well-defined of the classes. The current game doesn't have much support for them. Chests are untrapped, doors are untrapped.... Everything is completely visible except for runes. Runes are perfectly adapted for traps. Just give the 'rune' a different face, and a 'physical' attack, and presto, you have traps for the thieves to disarm. Experience for disarming traps would be awarded on this basis: level of the trap * difficulty of the dungeon * damage trap does. Ability to disarm traps would depend on Dex, Int, and Thief Level. Same goes for picking locks, and picking pockets.. Thief abilities are perfectly compatible with all others. Thief abilities would be supported by having a new range attack-- search/disarm/steal/backstab, so that nobody would have to type 'search' 'disarm' over and over and over. Perhaps 'backstab' should be a critical attack that thieves can use on monsters who are not facing them...... Another way to gain experience. ****************************************************************** General discussion: This is a major change. I'm willing to do a lot of it, but i will need help. Also, i'm unwilling even to start on it if people don't like this idea. I most need help in the area of X support for the changes in stats. I think it does a lot to make the game more interesting. It gives a greater distinction between skill areas without introducing any artificial divisions. Under this system, you are good at what you practice, not what you start out as. All characters would have four skill levels, and start out in level one in each. They would choose which path to follow, and COULD choose to follow them all. RACE would take a new role. Instead of 'wizard', 'cleric', etc. We would have 'fireborn', 'half-elf', 'elf', 'human', 'troll', 'quetzalcoatl', 'halfling', 'orc', 'half-orc'.... Each race would have other strengths and weaknesses in addition to stat bonuses. (I credit the revised RACE idea to ERic Mehlhaff, and i think it's a great one.) Whether you're a 'wizard', 'cleric', or whatever would depend on what you worked at, and on your inborn abilities, not on what you were made. Optionally, the pixmap for players could depend on their levels in the different skill areas. A 'wizard' would be someone who was unquestionably a wizard. A 'swashbuckler' would be someone who was about the same level of fighter and thief. ***************************************************************** My immediate plans: ( I don't regard these changes as controversial) 1) Put in the spell failure which is dependent on encumbrance with weapons and armour 2) Add the new clerical spells (Banishment, cause wounds....) (Cause wounds are going to be missile spells like bullet, but will use the cancellation bitmap. I think it'd look cool.) 3) Remove the ability of no-magic areas to ban clerical spells. (Remember, clerics won't have most offensive spells.) Comments? Questions? Support? Suggestions? Objections? Regards to all, PeterM From crossfire-request Tue May 24 22:19:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu (pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.4.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:18:50 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA07410; Tue, 24 May 1994 13:18:40 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405242018.NAA07410@pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) To: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405232224.21758.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> from "Kjetil Torgrim Homme" at May 24, 94 00:24:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2831 Status: RO > > +--- > | A comment about drinking 4 potions : here on the chico server, even > | the average players, after getting to about 13-15 level, have more > | money than they know what to do with. It becomes more like "hey, > | which store has Dex potions?" Then a race to that store. Or even > | worse, a player opens up a bag and chooses which artifact to whip > | out for this specfic encounter. Ah, room full of dragons? No prob, > | dragonslayer +3. > > Then Chico has a serious problem with unbalanced _maps_. Not that I > blame Chico -- it is very difficult to make balanced maps. > hmm, I don't think so, I think that the majority of the chico maps that we play were included with the standard distribution. We try to keep the scum areas down as much as we can, but with 10 different map makers this is hard. A LOT of people play xfire here at chico. These people, like I'm sure many of you are, are very good at games. The players here could scum any maps, and by 13-15 level, will have good enough characters to scum anything. I know the berkeley players could prolly do this too. (scums ;) > > That is: to increase your stat, one potion is sufficient until the > stat reaches 15. > 15 -> 16 2 potions > 16 -> 17 3 > 17 -> 18 4 > 18 -> 19 6 > 22 -> 23 15 > 29 -> 30 51 > > If you like, you could make it random, so that your odds for advancing > your stat from 24 to 25 is 1 to 22 against. > > > Kjetil T. > > Cool, i did not know about this table. One thing that I would also like to mention, is the enchant weapon scolls. They unbalance the game entirely. We have players, running around collecting all of the diamons/booze/gems/whatever for days, then finally preparing the weapon. We have +35 taifus, with +5 to each stat, 8 weapon speed, and damage +35 or so. I'm not even going to mention a pair of nunchunks (sorry sp) that have also been made. Could we put a prepare weapon limit on this? I could do it if nobody else wants to. Oh, and while I'm thinking about it ;) some monsters give out way too many exp. Like demi-liches. 500000? I have seen a 25 level barbarian wade through like 30 of them in one room no problem, then he becomes 31st level or something. I think that there need to be tougher monsters. I have taken monsters like the chineese dragon, liches, and the Demon lord, given them almost every attack, protection, a few immunes, and it is only a matter of seconds before they die. Anyone have knowledge in AI? I would love to see the monsters be much smarter. I myself have no programming knowledge in it, but am taking a really great AI class next semester. A row of bullet walls has scummed many maps with dumb monsters sitting in front of them. Shouldn't bullet walls have friendly flags set so the monsters tear them down? Karim From crossfire-request Tue May 24 22:19:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:18:59 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id NAA04777; Tue, 24 May 1994 13:16:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199405242016.NAA04777@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon McIntosh-Smith cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 1994 09:27:40 -0000." <9405240827.AA17140@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:16:56 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <9405240827.AA17140@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk>, Simon McIntosh-Smith writes : >The question being posed is: > > "Why should a wizard with the same CON as a barbarian > not have the same number of hit points?" > >Most replies have said they think it would be bad if hps depended on your >class as well as your CON. I disagree. > >A wizard is someone who is naturally more attuned to the mystic arts. Why? Because he is called a wizard? I'm much more of the "a character is what he acts like" point of view. If you play a character in such a way as to develop fighting skills: i.e., wearing armour, quaffing str,dex,con potions, having monstrous weapons, then, by God, that character IS a fighter. >Someone mentioned AD&D. Wizards are said to be much weakened by the fact that >they have few hps. Why do you think this should be? It is because that in AD&D Wizards are weaker in this game as well. I play a wizard all the time, because wizards RULE! I've never gotten my wizard past a strength of 20 without using those ridiculous improve weapon scrolls, con is similarly limited to 21 without heroic measures. Fighters do have better stats, in those areas, but they will never reach an int of 28, like my wizards do. It is untrue that the classes are equal, and certainly to make a wizard as good a fighter as he is a wizard would require me to abandon my prized int of 28. Wizards *do* have fewer hitpoints. Wizards *are* weaker. Fighters *are* stupider. Before the 30pt maximum was installed, you could get very high stats in all areas, now it's very much harder, and we can now resolve the differences between the classes much better. >advantage in playing a mixed party - my barabarian could have all the stats >and abilities of my friends wizard, and vice versa. Why not make the class The only way you're going to get a barbarian smart as a wizard is to use the improve weapons scrolls to make yourself a super-weapon. I think the major thing to come out of this argument is the absolute need to put restrictions on what those weapons can do! >differences count for more - just enough to make the choice of class >actually matter!? I personally think that choosing to be a wizard should mean It does matter! I want magic ability, and I pick a wizard every time. (Fireborns do better in int, but they have *no* ability to use weapons or armour, which makes them overall weaker despite their fire immunity.) >you will always have a better command over magic, but you should never be >as dangerous or robust in melee as a fighter. Similarly I think a fighter Wizards are not. Not unless they neglect their intelligence in favor of strength, dex, con. >should know his physical prowess and weapons skills will never be matched by >anyone except another fighter, while he should be resigned to the fact that Which a 'wizard' is, if he invests his time and magic slots for str, dex, con. >These changes should be easy enough to implement, in fact to be honest I'm >surprised it isn't already like this in Crossfire. I'd also favour priests It's because this is already the case. You just want the line more black-and-white than it is. Were I you, I'd restrict the improve weapon scrolls on my server, and increase the stat differential between classes. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Tue May 24 22:00:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu (pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.4.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 22:00:37 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA07195; Tue, 24 May 1994 13:00:28 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405242000.NAA07195@pathogen.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) To: master@rahul.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: karim@ecst.csuchico.edu, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@ptc.com In-Reply-To: <199405232208.AA27040@bolero.rahul.net> from "Mark Wedel" at May 23, 94 03:08:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3055 Status: RO > > I think some changes to classes would be a bad idea. Having hit points > depends on classes could quickly make some classes unplayable. In > AD&D, which I play and will use for comparission purposes, mages do get > very few hit points (compared to the fighter classes) per level. However, > AD&D is almost always played as a group, so that mage has several fighters > protecting him, and thus is not as likely to take damage. In crossfire, > this seems less likely (most seem to play solo). And even if not in > solo mode, you still have things like large fireballs, icestorms, etc, which > will do damage to any large group. And if you are fortunate enough to have > a line of fighters in front of you, it pretty much means you can not > cast any offensive spells without hitting your fighter friends. > > I do think that barbarians may need a bit more a bonus than the > other classes. This is because the barbarian class (due to its large > penalty on intelligence) can never really become a spell caster, and it > seems to me, that spells are really a major part of the game. > > --Mark > I really believe that xfire should be designed around a group, multi user idea. I have very high hopes for xfire becoming a true multi user game, where it is more beneficial, and fun to play with other people, instead of just "scum maps by yourself." We have tried to make maps with a party system in mind (multiple levers that need > 1 person, monsters with immune physical in one part of the dungeon, immune magic in another) but no matter how extreme we go, the same 20th level priest/magic user can race through it no problem. I think that class distinctions should be very major, I would like to see this done realistically though. For example, mages really should not wear armour. Do I think we should force this on them? No. They should just have severe penalties for casting and spell regeneration. I am all for having time limits placed on wearing/unwearing armour, I think that it's a great idea. Anyone know the actual time it takes to get suited up, like in the SCA? Somewhere around 30 minutes for light plate time? Maybe not this extreme, but somewhere inbetween 30 minutes, and running away from a dragon while I click on my dragon mail to get it off. ;) I see the whole Int vs Str thing like this. Lets say a fighter has a str 20 con 18 and Int 19. Who decides whether or not this guy becomes a fighter, priest or mage? To me, training is the whole issue. Maybe the fighter, who trains to weild a sword and shield, has a very high int, does this mean that he can use magic? Or does it mean that he picks up on catapult construction? Can he decipher magical runes without any knowledge of them, even though he can get A's in math? Int does not imply knowledge of the mystic. Maybe in the future, the fighter would like to study the arcane, great, then I think he should have bonuses if he wanted to learn magic, but he should have to train for it. Just trying to get my points across in ascii... Karim From crossfire-request Tue May 24 14:01:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 14:01:50 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <166827-3>; Tue, 24 May 1994 15:01:36 +0300 Subject: Re: hps of classes From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:01:33 +0300 In-Reply-To: <9405240827.AA17140@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> from "Simon McIntosh-Smith" at May 24, 94 11:27:40 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 1131 Message-Id: <94May24.150136eet_dst.166827-3@utu.fi> Status: RO > The question being posed is: > > "Why should a wizard with the same CON as a barbarian > not have the same number of hit points?" > > Most replies have said they think it would be bad if hps depended on your > class as well as your CON. I disagree. > > A wizard is someone who is naturally more attuned to the mystic arts. > He concentrates on developing his mastery over magic, all other skills > being secondary to this. A fighter may be as intelligent as this wizard, > but because the wizard deals with magic BY TRADE, ie it is his way of life, > then the wizard should have a MUCH better command over magic than the fighter. ... Doesn't the fact that the barbarian has the same INT show that he has put more effort on that particular area. So he has used much more money and time to get there to be as good as the mage who newer needed to advance his INT. The mage was just a lazy free lancer. I think this kind of barbarian should be rewarded by the same abilities as the mage. After all he has worked hard to get there. And the mage can anytime he wants to advance his INT as he is far from his max abilities. From crossfire-request Tue May 24 10:27:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 10:27:56 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <04219-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Tue, 24 May 1994 09:27:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 May 94 09:27:40 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405240827.AA17140@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes Status: RO The question being posed is: "Why should a wizard with the same CON as a barbarian not have the same number of hit points?" Most replies have said they think it would be bad if hps depended on your class as well as your CON. I disagree. A wizard is someone who is naturally more attuned to the mystic arts. He concentrates on developing his mastery over magic, all other skills being secondary to this. A fighter may be as intelligent as this wizard, but because the wizard deals with magic BY TRADE, ie it is his way of life, then the wizard should have a MUCH better command over magic than the fighter. So, wizards should have more spell points than fighters with the same INT. Conversely, a fighter devotes his life to developing his weapons skills and his physical prowess. This goes beyond just how fit he is. Seeing as this is the area that the fighter is concentrating in, he should do more damage than any other class, even with the same strength. He should also have more hps than any other class, even with the same con. Someone mentioned AD&D. Wizards are said to be much weakened by the fact that they have few hps. Why do you think this should be? It is because that in AD&D wizards would be more powerful than ALL the other classes, and unbalance the game if it were not so. It has been pointed out however that a lot of people play the game solo, and that this would make playing an individual class much more difficult. So, why not make the differences between the classes not so great as to make them impossible to play on their own? At the moment there is little advantage in playing a mixed party - my barabarian could have all the stats and abilities of my friends wizard, and vice versa. Why not make the class differences count for more - just enough to make the choice of class actually matter!? I personally think that choosing to be a wizard should mean you will always have a better command over magic, but you should never be as dangerous or robust in melee as a fighter. Similarly I think a fighter should know his physical prowess and weapons skills will never be matched by anyone except another fighter, while he should be resigned to the fact that his grip on all things magical will never compete with that of a magic user. These changes should be easy enough to implement, in fact to be honest I'm surprised it isn't already like this in Crossfire. I'd also favour priests and clerics getting class bonuses for things like turning undead, healing spells and protection spells - lets make the differences between the classes more interesting than just having a different icon!! Sy Crossfire on the web - http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/Crossfire/ Simon N. McIntosh-Smith, PhD candidate | Email : Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk Room M/1.36 Department of Computing Maths | Phone : +44 (0)222 874000 University of Wales, College of Cardiff | Fax : +44 (0)222 666182 PO Box 916, Cardiff, Wales, CF2 4YN, U.K. | Home : +44 (0)222 560522 Http : http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/People/Simon.Smith.html From crossfire-request Tue May 24 09:20:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 09:20:37 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA11274 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 May 1994 00:20:27 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA08438 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 24 May 1994 00:20:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 00:20:25 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405240720.AA08438@bolero.rahul.net> To: Tero.Haatanen@lut.fi, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO While the stats were raised from 25 to 30 (this seemed to have been in the 0.90.0-alpha code I got from Frank), in general, most of the abilities also progress slower. That is to say, a 25 in an ability (with max stats of 25) gives you less of a bonus than a 25 does now. However, I believe the very high stats (28+) will give more than the old 25 max stat. My one guess would be that it used to be very easy to get a max stat of 25, and thus the differences in class became more limited (because at a high level, you could just choose the appropriate stat rings and have most of your stats maxed out). Now, it is extremely difficult to max a stat out at 30, and if you do, some of your other stats certainly are not going to be maxed out. I don't as much like the delay in how things take effect (the code could get pretty weird to deal with it). What would be better is to put some time values on equipping/uneqipping items. As it stands now, I can switch from dragon mail to leather armour in one clock tick, and switch most any other equipment in a like amount of time. If the amount of time it took to switch was non trivial, switching might happen less. The only bad thing about this is that if you accidentally click on something by mistake. By the time you recover, you could very easily be dead. --Mark From crossfire-request Tue May 24 08:36:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from aino.it.lut.fi (haatanen@aino.it.lut.fi [157.24.11.71]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 08:36:10 +0200 Received: from localhost (haatanen@localhost) by aino.it.lut.fi (8.6.5/8.6.5/1.12.kim) id JAA24079; Tue, 24 May 1994 09:02:36 +0300 (for crossfire@ifi.uio.no) From: Tero Haatanen Message-Id: <199405240602.JAA24079@aino.it.lut.fi> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 24 May 94 9:02:35 EET DST In-Reply-To: <199405232208.AA27040@bolero.rahul.net>; from "Mark Wedel" at May 23, 94 3:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO From: Mark Wedel > I think some changes to classes would be a bad idea. Having hit points > depends on classes could quickly make some classes unplayable. I wonder why? Crossfire is basically a multiplayer game although everyone can't play it so. There shouldn't be any problem if some classes are hard to play (Nethack have a tourist and playing a tourist is much harder than most other clesses). Can someone comment why the maximum stat was raised from 25 to 30? Was there any other balancing made in the same time or was it just 5 extra points to each stats? It seems to me that if wizard can get int 28 - 30, it's too much. Even with 25 int and spell point regeneration wizard can cast the huge amounts of spells. One idea that I had is that all items which affects stats works with delay. So when a player changes a ring or a weapon, stats aren't change immediately. This would force players think more which stats they want to normally keep high. I haven't tested this and it might not work well with the game (cause confusion with the new players etc.). -Tero From crossfire-request Tue May 24 06:54:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk [128.86.8.45]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 06:54:18 +0200 Via: uk.ac.edinburgh.dcs; Tue, 24 May 1994 05:45:52 +0100 Received: from davaar.dcs.ed.ac.uk by dcs.ed.ac.uk id aa16290; 24 May 94 5:44 BST Message-Id: <4800.9405240444@davaar.dcs.ed.ac.uk> Received: from tdsm.localhost.dcs.ed.ac.uk by davaar.dcs.ed.ac.uk; Tue, 24 May 94 05:44:44 +0100 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: DM status Date: Tue, 24 May 94 05:44:42 +0100 From: Tim Moss Status: RO I have just built crossfire-0.91.0 but cannot seem to get dm status for a specified player. PLease can you help Tim Moss From crossfire-request Tue May 24 09:11:01 1994 Return-Path: Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 09:11:00 +0200 Received: from uucp1.uu.net by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA09792; Tue, 24 May 94 03:10:58 -0400 Received: from mspboss.UUCP by uucp1.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL ; Tue, 24 May 1994 03:10:58 -0400 Received: by mspboss (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA10887; Tue, 24 May 94 01:58:38 -0500 Received: by radical (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA00838; Mon, 23 May 94 21:42:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 May 94 21:42:58 -0500 From: "Mark G. Mendel" Message-Id: <9405240242.AA00838@radical> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: crossfire@uunet.uu.net Subject: restore * potions Reply-To: mspboss!radical!mspboss!mgm@uunet.uu.net Status: RO What good are the restore * potions [e.g., restore strength]? **** NEWS FLASH **** From crossfire-request Tue May 24 04:31:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 24 May 1994 04:31:21 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id TAA27922; Mon, 23 May 1994 19:31:15 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 19:31:15 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405240231.TAA27922@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, master@rahul.net Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO Regarding armour: I usually run wizards without much armour. No helmet and usually no armour either. I like to spellcast things to death rather than beat them to death, so spellpoint regeneration is key. I also have my character be cowardly, so he runs automatically if he's below a certain amount of hitpoints. My wizards usually carry around heavier armour for occasions when spellcasting just won't do. I do not usually allow monsters close enough to me to damage me with weapons or claws, and armour doesn't protect you from spellcasting, does it? Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Tue May 24 03:55:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 24 May 1994 03:55:12 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25963 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 May 1994 18:55:09 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA16832 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 May 1994 18:55:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 18:55:08 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405240155.AA16832@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO This is a followup of several messages. Barbarians have a -8 int, if I remember correctly. This makes their natural max 12. No class has as advantage in casting cleric spells. The docs used to say that only priests/clerics get a wisdom bonus, but this is not true. All classes are treated equally in terms of casting the spell. Killing a grim reaper (being a non spell caster) can be done in many ways. Any of the various wands, rods, horns that cast fire will do. Also, many of the artifact weapons have attacks that is not physical (ie, fire, weaponmagic, etc), and this will also do grimreapers in. I found that as a low-level wizard, depending on what your spell(s) are, it can be relatively easy. If you have something like burning hands, you wander into the newby tower, and roast about 10 monsters per spell. After each spell, you need to retreat and re-gain spellpoints, but it was not that difficult. You do need to upgrade to better armor. Here is a question: Do any characters prefer wearing low protection armour? I almost always ahve my characters wear plate or dragon mail if they ahve the chance. I tried running a priest that wore lighter armour, but the armour value itself was low enough, that when I finally upgarde to better (I think I found +4 plate one time), that it made a tremendous difference. Have 50%+ of damage absorbed compared to 30% is really major. If I need to regenerate spellpoints, I find a safe place, and just take off my armour. I am just curious if other players have used light weight armor and how it worked out.. I do think charisma can make it difficult for ugly characters to advance. I had a moderate level barbarian (10 or so), but it was extremely difficult for him to improve his abilities because the potions were so expensive to him (he had around a 12 charisma). And with a low intelligence, I think his spell points were around 10, making casting the charisma spell impossible (I think the only spell he actually had was burning hands). Perhaps having scrolls of charisma would help out the problem. Thus, even the stupid charcters could benefit. I don't like the idea of removing price adjustments based on charisma, because that is almost the only thing charisma is used for (I think spotting runes is the other). --Mark From crossfire-request Tue May 24 03:44:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 03:44:04 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25624 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 23 May 1994 18:43:41 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA15750 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 May 1994 18:43:41 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 18:43:41 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405240143.AA15750@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mcn@c3serve.c3.lanl.gov Subject: Re: Enchanting Weapons Status: RO A prepare weapon scroll needs to be used on the weapon first. And the weapon msut be non-magical while reading the prepare weapon scorll. From crossfire-request Tue May 24 02:21:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 02:21:28 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 24 May 1994 02:21:27 +0200 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 02:21:27 +0200 Message-Id: <199405240021.23600.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: Peter Mardahl's message of Mon, 23 May 1994 16:34:40 -0700 <199405232334.QAA12017@soda.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO +--- Peter Mardahl: | I don't want to forbid getting a 30 charisma with that spell | entirely. Why not?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? It worked well in the past!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kjetil T................................................................. From crossfire-request Tue May 24 01:56:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from c3serve (c3serve.c3.lanl.gov [128.165.20.100]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 01:56:06 +0200 Received: from nostromo (nostromo.c3.lanl.gov [128.165.112.1]) by c3serve (8.6.8/93112601) with SMTP id RAA18930 for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 17:55:58 -0600 Received: by nostromo (Trusted Solaris 1.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02552; Mon, 23 May 94 17:56:36 MDT Date: Mon, 23 May 94 17:56:36 MDT From: mcn@c3serve.c3.lanl.gov (Mike Neuman) Message-Id: <9405232356.AA02552@nostromo> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Enchanting Weapons X-Sender-Information-Label: UNCLASSIFIED Status: RO Sorry, I missed most of the discussion about enchanting weapons... What does, "Weapon has not been prepared" mean? How does one prepare a weapon? (Specifically I was trying to enchant a +3 firebrand) -Mike From crossfire-request Tue May 24 01:37:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 01:37:21 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id QAA12254; Mon, 23 May 1994 16:37:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:37:11 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405232337.QAA12254@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@PTC.COM Subject: Re: hps of classes Status: RO grim reapers are killed easily enough with fire. any wand will do: firebolt, burning hands, fireballs. PeterM From crossfire-request Tue May 24 01:35:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 01:35:33 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id QAA12017; Mon, 23 May 1994 16:34:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:34:40 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405232334.QAA12017@soda.berkeley.edu> To: jimdipalma@PTC.COM, karim@ecst.csuchico.edu, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO Nothing prevents a barbarian from getting a 28-30 int. It is just practically impossible. Their max intelligence is probably 19, so they'd need to find 11 points worth of items. A wizard, with a max intelligence of 23, needs 7. 2 rings of high magic: +4 int 1 helm of brilliance: +2? int? maybe +3 one uw_sword: +1 int, and we're at 29-30 int, and prob. have 600+ spellpoints. I don't know what to do about charisma. Perhaps we should make the stat ineffective for buying stuff. I really can't think of any straightforward way to modify the charisma spell. I don't want to forbid getting a 30 charisma with that spell entirely. PeterM From crossfire-request Tue May 24 01:25:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 01:25:32 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA28240; Mon, 23 May 94 19:24:46 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA01062; Mon, 23 May 94 19:26:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 May 94 19:26:43 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405232326.AA01062@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: hps of classes content-length: 652 Status: RO > BTW, I think new characters should start out as level 2, that is with > exactly 1000 points. That way they can still lose a level when they > encounter a grim reaper, and it makes it quite a bit easier for > beginners as well. Good suggestion. One question though: How does a barbarian kill a grim reaper? Wizards simple use one or two scrolls of destruction and its over. I remember playing with my brother, I a wiz and he a barbarian. He would go kill everything while I waited for hime to run low on hps (so I could cure him) or find a grim-reaper (which he would trap while wearing his immune to drain ring and I would kill). -jim From crossfire-request Tue May 24 01:13:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 01:13:22 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA28130; Mon, 23 May 94 19:12:19 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:peterm@soda.berkeley.edu id AA01037; Mon, 23 May 94 19:14:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 May 94 19:14:18 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405232314.AA01037@taz> To: KARIM SANJABI , peterm@soda.berkeley.edu (Peter Mardahl) Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Cc: jimdipalma@PTC.COM, crossfire@ifi.uio.no content-length: 2457 Status: RO > Yeah, I totally agree. Magic, with an Int of 28-30 will blow away > almost anything. A barbarian/fighter type really isn't so hot > compared to a a spellcaster when they both get to 15 level or so. FIRST, what prevents a barbarian/fighter from having a 28-30 int? SECOND, at low levels I found it difficult to start a wizard. My typical wizard would roll dice until getting a 17-18 int and at least a 16 wisdom (both are vital), con and dex are both greater than strength (which must be atleast 11). That makes 5 atributes all greater than 11. My typical barbarian rolls dice until getting 3 >=16s, place those in str, con, dex (make sure Int is greater than 8). str dex con int wis chr hp/sp human: 13 16 16 17 17 9 10/7 wiz: 11 17 14 20 19 9 9/9 human: 17 17 16 13 11 11 12/4 barb: 21 18 19 5 10 9 14/1 The barbarian easily made 3rd level in newbie tower while the wiz had trouble making 2nd level. THIRD, how did the wizard get a 28-30 int? natural max is 23. So, some sort of ring/amulet/weapons bonus can do this; without a magical weapon is 28 int possible? With a 21 strength and without using fire as a main weapon, can barbarians collect and carry money more easily? FORTH, my wizard struggled desperately to survive until finding a spellbook of charisma; while he benefited from 90.4's charisma spell system, it is still easy enough to get a 29 charisma (7 spells, ring +2, ring+1, cloak+2). Pain in the ass to sell everything before going ugly, and time consuming, but I do it for the extreme charisma bonus. Everything I have comes mostly from this one spellbook. SUGGESTIONS: 28 int problem -- fix charisma, make potions more expensive, limit attribute bonuses on weapons to +4. Weapons can still have huge damage,wc,ac bonuses, but not give a wiz 200 spell points. Barbs useless -- create more monsters that are resistant to magic, but don't spew magic onto hand-to-hand attackers, make maps even more wide open and don't trap wyverns,giants where mages can easily attack from a distance. Too little maps and few really really good ones is still a problem. stockpiling -- Does exponential exp-increase cause pillage? Staying on lower levels longer would encourage people to create low level maps without tons of spoils. No need to get that -10 amour class needed to survive at level 8 so quick. Personally, crossfire is designed well for levels 2-8. -jim From crossfire-request Tue May 24 00:24:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 00:24:25 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 24 May 1994 00:24:24 +0200 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 00:24:24 +0200 Message-Id: <199405232224.21758.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: KARIM SANJABI's message of Mon, 23 May 1994 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) <199405232001.NAA16622@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO +--- Karim Sanjabi: | Yeah, I totally agree. Magic, with an Int of 28-30 will blow away | almost anything. A barbarian/fighter type really isn't so hot | compared to a a spellcaster when they both get to 15 level or so. Barbarians have _always_ been a dumb choice if you want to make a character with potential. It is also the only class which has a negative sum when totaling the stat modifiers. (Actually, the barbarian should perhaps get some higher pluses, e.g., Str +5 Con +4.) +--- | A comment about drinking 4 potions : here on the chico server, even | the average players, after getting to about 13-15 level, have more | money than they know what to do with. It becomes more like "hey, | which store has Dex potions?" Then a race to that store. Or even | worse, a player opens up a bag and chooses which artifact to whip | out for this specfic encounter. Ah, room full of dragons? No prob, | dragonslayer +3. Then Chico has a serious problem with unbalanced _maps_. Not that I blame Chico -- it is very difficult to make balanced maps. That said, the stat advancing is exponential the _wrong_ way. The effect from raising your stat increases as they go up, but the cost remains the same. Perhaps you should need to drink 10 potions to go from 20 to 21? Suggested formula: max(int(1.15^oldlevel - 6), 1) That is: to increase your stat, one potion is sufficient until the stat reaches 15. 15 -> 16 2 potions 16 -> 17 3 17 -> 18 4 18 -> 19 6 22 -> 23 15 29 -> 30 51 If you like, you could make it random, so that your odds for advancing your stat from 24 to 25 is 1 to 22 against. Kjetil T. From crossfire-request Tue May 24 00:09:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 24 May 1994 00:08:57 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA14657 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 23 May 1994 15:08:10 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA27040 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 May 1994 15:08:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 15:08:09 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405232208.AA27040@bolero.rahul.net> To: karim@ecst.csuchico.edu, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@ptc.com Status: RO What each class gets comes back to the question of whether the classes should be strong differences or weak. As it is now, class differences are weak. The only differences between the classes are starting attribute bonuses (and thus, what the max for the various stats will be), starting equipment, icon, and what pets you get. A few of the classes (fireborn, wraith, quetcoutal (sp)) are a bit different. They have various better bonuses (better ac, or immunities and vulnerabilities), as well as restrictions (can't use armour or weapons). So potentially, that 12'th level barbarian can have a much higher strength and con than that 12'th level wizard, and thus do more damage, move faster, and have more hit points. That wizard will potentially have a much higher int and wis, and thus have more sp, and can learn spells easier. I think some changes to classes would be a bad idea. Having hit points depends on classes could quickly make some classes unplayable. In AD&D, which I play and will use for comparission purposes, mages do get very few hit points (compared to the fighter classes) per level. However, AD&D is almost always played as a group, so that mage has several fighters protecting him, and thus is not as likely to take damage. In crossfire, this seems less likely (most seem to play solo). And even if not in solo mode, you still have things like large fireballs, icestorms, etc, which will do damage to any large group. And if you are fortunate enough to have a line of fighters in front of you, it pretty much means you can not cast any offensive spells without hitting your fighter friends. I do think that barbarians may need a bit more a bonus than the other classes. This is because the barbarian class (due to its large penalty on intelligence) can never really become a spell caster, and it seems to me, that spells are really a major part of the game. --Mark From crossfire-request Mon May 23 22:01:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 22:01:27 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA16622; Mon, 23 May 1994 13:01:14 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405232001.NAA16622@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: hps of classes (class differences) To: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu (Peter Mardahl) Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@PTC.COM In-Reply-To: <199405231856.LAA10671@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 23, 94 11:56:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2010 Status: RO > > >> At the moment wizards seem to get magic AND everything else, > >> which is a bit unbalanced. > Yeah, I totally agree. Magic, with an Int of 28-30 will blow away almost anything. A barbarian/fighter type really isn't so hot compared to a a spellcaster when they both get to 15 level or so. A comment about drinking 4 potions : here on the chico server, even the average players, after getting to about 13-15 level, have more money than they know what to do with. It becomes more like "hey, which store has Dex potions?" Then a race to that store. Or even worse, a player opens up a bag and chooses which artifact to whip out for this specfic encounter. Ah, room full of dragons? No prob, dragonslayer +3. > >What class differences are there between the magic ability of > >a wizard and of a barbarian? From what I can remember from > >reading documentation, these differences are small: primarily > >attibute bonuses. > > They are SOLELY attribute bonuses. there are no differences > between the human classes other than that, and startequipment. > The hp, sp are determined by stats, NOT by class. And why not? > Why should a wizard with X con be weaker than a barbarian with > X con simply because he's called a wizard? > In my opinion, I think that training should have something to do with it. Where is the character actually learing to cast the spells/swordfight/whatever? A warrior should be trained in the art of hand to hand, while a mage in the art of spellcasting. Having a high strength, may make you hit hard, but a well trained even weaker fighter, will do more damage because of skill. While even a fighter who may be bright, really should have no chance of contolling magical energies. I would like class to be something more than which picture your player icon is. (other stuff deleted) Karim Sanjabi by the way, how close is the client/server description to being done. There are a lot of good programmers here in chico, just waiting to get a hold of it. From crossfire-request Mon May 23 20:56:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 20:56:43 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA10671; Mon, 23 May 1994 11:56:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 11:56:38 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405231856.LAA10671@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@PTC.COM Subject: Re:hps of classes (class differences) Status: RO >> At the moment wizards seem to get magic AND everything else, >> which is a bit unbalanced. >What class differences are there between the magic ability of >a wizard and of a barbarian? From what I can remember from >reading documentation, these differences are small: primarily >attibute bonuses. They are SOLELY attribute bonuses. there are no differences between the human classes other than that, and startequipment. The hp, sp are determined by stats, NOT by class. And why not? Why should a wizard with X con be weaker than a barbarian with X con simply because he's called a wizard? > Here is an uncomfirmed list of things I can remember: > - summon-pet-monster monsters vary with class Not really...... this got changed, now anyone can summon any monster, if i understand that code correctly. (Any monster that can be summoned as a pet that is.) What monster you get is now random.... > - clerics get bonuses for healing spells They DO? Was this recently added? I thought this was solely based on wisdom. > - Quetzalcoatl's start with burning hands I did this because: quetzalcoatl's are draconic, and their wisdom is such that they have a hard time learning other spells. > Please add to this list of class differences in magic ability... I think there are no more! However, some classes start with immunities. All the human people are the same, but the non-humans have a certain set of vulnerabilities, protecions, and immunities. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Mon May 23 18:46:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 18:46:37 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA27006; Mon, 23 May 94 12:45:48 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA00574; Mon, 23 May 94 12:47:47 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 May 94 12:47:47 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405231647.AA00574@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re:hps of classes (class differences) content-length: 559 Status: RO > At the moment wizards seem to get magic AND everything else, > which is a bit unbalanced. What class differences are there between the magic ability of a wizard and of a barbarian? From what I can remember from reading documentation, these differences are small: primarily attibute bonuses. Here is an uncomfirmed list of things I can remember: - summon-pet-monster monsters vary with class - clerics get bonuses for healing spells - Quetzalcoatl's start with burning hands Please add to this list of class differences in magic ability... -jim From crossfire-request Mon May 23 18:21:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Mon, 23 May 1994 18:21:58 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 23 May 1994 18:21:57 +0200 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 18:21:57 +0200 Message-Id: <199405231621.15610.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk CC: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-reply-to: Simon McIntosh-Smith's message of Mon, 23 May 94 15:55:46 BST <9405231455.AA06689@zircon.cm.cf.ac.uk> Subject: Re: hps of classes Status: RO +--- Simon McIntosh-Smith: | Why does my friends 12th level wizard have the same number of hit points | as my 12th level barbarian if we have the same con? Surely hps should depend | on more than just con and level - fighter classes should get more hps | per level than others, clerics and thieves should come next, then magic | users last. At the moment wizards seem to get magic AND everything else, | which is a bit unbalanced. It may be unbalanced, but I don't think we need to add the complexity you're suggesting. In order to achieve the same Con as a barbarian, the Wizard must quaff _five_ potions. If you like, you could change the class bonuses to make the difference even greater. It would be nice if you expermineted and told us what numbers you found to work well. BTW, I think new characters should start out as level 2, that is with exactly 1000 points. That way they can still lose a level when they encounter a grim reaper, and it makes it quite a bit easier for beginners as well. Kjetil T. From crossfire-request Mon May 23 16:55:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 16:55:57 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <04657-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Mon, 23 May 1994 15:55:51 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 May 94 15:55:46 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405231455.AA06689@zircon.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: hps of classes Status: RO Why does my friends 12th level wizard have the same number of hit points as my 12th level barbarian if we have the same con? Surely hps should depend on more than just con and level - fighter classes should get more hps per level than others, clerics and thieves should come next, then magic users last. At the moment wizards seem to get magic AND everything else, which is a bit unbalanced. Sy From crossfire-request Mon May 23 18:55:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 18:55:42 +0200 Received: from sonja.math.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa23345; 23 May 94 12:55 EDT Received: by sonja.math.Virginia.EDU (NX5.67c/NX3.0S) id AA02436; Mon, 23 May 94 12:55:41 -0400 From: "Kevin H. Weiss" Message-Id: <9405231655.AA02436@sonja.math.Virginia.EDU> Subject: CF: Re: Crossfire portability To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 12:55:39 -36803936 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199405230833.AA10177@bolero.rahul.net> from "Mark Wedel" at May 23, 94 01:33:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1042 Status: RO >> As a side note, there are programs for both the Mac and PC that allow them >> to display X graphics without having to run a unix variant. These >> tend to be commercial products, and fairly expensive, but they do exist. Well, I tried to show a colleague crossfire on his PC, which was running eXceed for Windows. So far, crossfire has been the only X program that would NOT run on eXceed. I suppose it may be possible to get the fonts on the PC, but this is not convenient. By the way, I can't remember the error I got - sorry - but, I do remember that I got the screen you get while waiting for the pixmaps (or xpms) to be created... -kevin http://sonja.math.virginia.edu/~khw2x/ crossfire server running v0.91.0: sonja.math.virginia.edu:13326 P.S. Please don't play on my server if you have a lot of packet loss (>5%). Try to find a closer server. Sonja's been getting busier all the time, and it sucks when the games freezes 'cause of somebody's bad connection!!! P.P.S. To whomever wrote 'mystic fist': Thanks. It's cool! From crossfire-request Mon May 23 14:39:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from lut.fi (root@lut.fi [157.24.10.8]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 14:39:51 +0200 Received: from cc.lut.fi (cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.20.kim) with ESMTP id PAA16386; Mon, 23 May 1994 15:27:50 +0300 (for ) Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id PAA29162; Mon, 23 May 1994 15:26:20 +0300 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 15:26:20 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: Crossfire portability To: Simon McIntosh-Smith cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405230755.AA14164@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Mon, 23 May 1994, Simon McIntosh-Smith wrote: > Interesting. Is there any reason why Crossfire is an X game? Has anyone > considered porting it to other environments for Amigas, PCs, Macs etc? As I remember/heard right, at the beginning, Frank did the crossfire to learn X programming :) But why not. As I have ever seen X11 is best device independent graphic window inteface what exist. And for Amigas, PCs, Macs etc, are available numerous servers and library toolkits. X does not really mean unix. And I think in porting it's more question of porting unix features to the target machine than X features. For example, the select() system call in DOS, ... make my day :) -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Mon May 23 10:33:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 10:33:07 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25414 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 23 May 1994 01:33:01 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA10177 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 May 1994 01:33:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 01:33:01 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405230833.AA10177@bolero.rahul.net> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Crossfire portability Status: RO In general, most of the X specific stuff is in the common/xutil.c and server/xio.c file. However, some X stuff is in the various structures (things like the pixmaps structures). There is no clean way around it, except to use (store) these in the two files mentioned, and then ahve some element in the player structure that indexes these. This gets pretty messy. Why is it only X? Can't really say. I have heard the someone ported it to the Amiga at some time (but performance was a different issue). So it can certainly be done. But a few thoughts: 1) Many people like the fact that Crossfire is a multi player game. I think that porting all the stuff to the different platforms (Sockets, and transmission of graphics) would make keeping it a multi player game on those other systems pretty difficulty. Also, X had the built in ability to display graphics on remote systems. This makes for the multiplayer aspect much easier. I don't know to what extent those capabilities exist on other platforms. As a side note, there are programs for both the Mac and PC that allow them to display X graphics without having to run a unix variant. These tend to be commercial products, and fairly expensive, but they do exist. The main reason the Crossfire is unix and X only is that is the platform it was developed on. IT could be asked about many X programs 'why isn't there a port to XXX for this program?'. And the simple answer is, that the authors wrote it for X/unix, and don't want to spend the effort to port it to other systems (make lack the facilities to do so also), and someone else has not. When client/server comes about, the protocol that uses should make it easier to have client programs for most any system. I believe it was Carl who was coming up with a second draft of the protocol for it, don't know where that has gone, --MArk From crossfire-request Mon May 23 09:55:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 09:55:20 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <06380-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Mon, 23 May 1994 08:55:16 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 May 94 08:55:13 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405230755.AA14164@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Crossfire portability Status: RO I've just had the following comments on Crossfire from someone who found the Crossfire web pages I maintain (http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/Crossfire/) I believe the guy comes from a PC background, and would like to be able to play crossfire on his machine without having to install linux and X ... ----- Begin Included Message ----- >Hope you get to play it some day - it's some game! Well, I hope you guys make portable code that can be ported to other platforms.. That is, keep all graphics-related code separate and replacable with "plug in" code on another computer... basically keeping input/output a layer removed from the main code, so it can be, with a reasonably high amount of effort, ported to other machines.. This is definitely doable since more people can get direct (or SLIP) access to Internet on personal computers. ----- End Included Message ----- Interesting. Is there any reason why Crossfire is an X game? Has anyone considered porting it to other environments for Amigas, PCs, Macs etc? Sy From crossfire-request Mon May 23 03:13:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.4.42]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 03:13:05 +0200 Received: from marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de by waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP (Sendmail 8.6.9/UniDo 2.0.18) id DAA21322; Mon, 23 May 1994 03:13:03 +0200 From: Sven Neuhaus Message-Id: <9405230113.AA09463@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Received: by marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id AA09463; Mon, 23 May 94 03:13:01 +0200 Subject: Killing titans... To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 03:13:00 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 428 Status: RO I no longer have problems with killing titans. A heavy rod of fire bolt does the trick if you stand in the corner where he can only shoot arrows at you. A horn of frost does not hurt, either. -Sven -- Sven Neuhaus, CS student at University of Dortmund, Germany/\Internet for Netrek, Doom & Empire addict.PGP key available upon request@@ the masses! KGB CIA Assassination Palestine explosive terrorist Uzi NSA\/info@ping.de From crossfire-request Mon May 23 01:40:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 23 May 1994 01:40:36 +0200 Received: from dancer.Dartmouth.EDU by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id TAA20103; Sun, 22 May 1994 19:40:35 -0400 Message-id: <4269752@dancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 22 May 94 19:40:33 EDT From: Preston.F.Crow@Dartmouth.EDU (Preston F. Crow) Reply-To: preston.crow@dancer.dartmouth.edu Subject: CF: Saved window positions To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO I've noticed that saved window positions go away when you play without split windows. This can be a real pain. --PC From crossfire-request Sat May 21 19:17:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 21 May 1994 19:17:06 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id UAA14699; Sat, 21 May 1994 20:17:04 +0300 Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 20:17:04 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: Improve weapon scrolls To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405200649.AA49621@bvg.ivu-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Fri, 20 May 1994, Gregor Schmid wrote: > Mark Wedel writes: > > you sure can - the Enchant Weapon scroll will increase the magic of > > the weapon by 1. In the case of the taifu, the magic is also used to > > determine teh ac bonus. > > This looks a bit too easy to me, i.e. all you need is a lot > of money (resp. diamonds pearls etc.) and the right scrolls and > you can get a weapon that unbalances the game. Well, few words about taifu. It's done in age of 0.8* so I was not noticing the enchanting of items. Taifu as a weapon is a defence weapon. It's primary function is defence by directing or misbalancing the coming hit off from body. And the secondary function is to work as secondhand weapon. Normally the attack is by sticking, but in some cases there is an edge in weapon so it could use to slash. So in case of enchanting the increasement of ac is OK. > The restrictions that only the person that uses the prepare weapon > scroll can use the weapon and that you can't enchant beyond your level > are nice (read: absolutely essential), but how about a bit of extra > risk ? > > In nethack the probability of overenchanting increases with the level > of enchantment. This wouldn't have to lead to the destruction of the > weapon, but maybe could reduce the enchantment or curse the weapon or > some other little nasties (as well as wasting all those precious > gems...). I think this way would be better also. That the failure of enchanting action would be progressive (like as stages: 0%,0%,0%,5%,10%,30%,60%,...). The level of character could be a multiplier. In nethack the action of failure is destruction of weapon, that is a bit too bad I think. The funnier actions are just (as before mentioned): de-enchanment, cursing/damning, polymorphing weapon or just destroying it (with small probability). And if in this way the magic-plus is "restricted" to about 6-7, then there would be bigger chance (somewhat like in remove- damnation) to find it from shops also. And as complement there would be no need to found any higher plus weapons in shops anymore (that's mean there are no need to make so big shops to give a chance.). -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Sat May 21 13:15:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from crl.crl.com (crl.com [165.113.1.12]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 21 May 1994 13:15:54 +0200 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl.crl.com with SMTP id AA18518 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 21 May 1994 04:14:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199405211114.AA18518@crl.crl.com> To: Roland Haag Cc: Crossfire , mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: Some small problems In-Reply-To: Message from Roland Haag of Fri, 20 May 1994 11:42:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 04:14:03 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Roland Haag recently wrote: > >* What's the difference between 'save and 'A' on a bed ? The save command saves your character file in case of a crash. If you quit, your character file gets deleted. if you apply (with 'A') a 'bed of alternate reality', it saves your player file, and exits you from the game without deleting your player file. Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Sat May 21 12:18:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 21 May 1994 12:18:17 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id DAA22708; Sat, 21 May 1994 03:18:11 -0700 Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 03:18:11 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405211018.DAA22708@soda.berkeley.edu> To: neuhau00@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Subject: Re: Cheat (bug?) in tower Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO Killing titans can be done by means of burning hands. You have to blast them a great many times. To do this, you need: 1) some sort of protection from paralysis 2) a potion of invulnerability 3) several potions of restore spellpoints or a very very large spellpoint reserve ( >250 or so) medium fireball works very well also, and in this case you probably want to use a potion of fire resistance too. Be prepared to exhaust your entire store of spellpoints before killing the titan. I did the bullet walls, and I cannot remember whether you get the experience for it or not. (The spell-created bullet walls or not) I remember being uncertain whether you should or not.... I think i made it an #ifdef decision. I'll let you know if you remind me in two days. PeterM From crossfire-request Sat May 21 04:55:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 21 May 1994 04:55:06 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA29945 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 20 May 1994 19:54:06 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA19940 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 20 May 1994 19:54:05 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 19:54:05 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405210254.AA19940@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, neuhau00@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Subject: Re: Cheat (bug?) in tower Status: RO I'll fix that map for the next release. I believe you are supposed to get the experience for things that bullet walls & runes that you create kill, but I am not sure about it. Killing titans is difficult, as it should be. But a few things help: Being immune to paralyze (otherwise, if you do get paralyzed, you will probably be dead before you are unparalyzed). being able to heal (via spell, staff, or potion) is also good. Titans cast too many lightning bolts for potions of invulnerability be the winning answer. --Mark From crossfire-request Sat May 21 03:21:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.4.42]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 21 May 1994 03:21:07 +0200 Received: from marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de by waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP (Sendmail 8.6.9/UniDo 2.0.18) id DAA19149; Sat, 21 May 1994 03:21:06 +0200 From: Sven Neuhaus Message-Id: <9405210121.AA28627@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Received: by marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id AA28627; Sat, 21 May 94 03:21:04 +0200 Subject: Cheat (bug?) in tower To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 03:21:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1104 Status: RO Hi fellow Crossfire fans, I found a serious loophole that allows any level 10 character to easily obtain real artifacts. The problem is on map ./cd/cd.tower2.755 in the south east corner (with the titan). You don't have to kill the titan to get the artifact if you know the spell of dimension door. I assume this is a bug (is it?). People are abusing it heavily here once I found out and they noticed how I did it :-) Anyways, this should be fixed. Talking about titans, what's the best way to kill them? We've tried with 2 level 11 characters with invulnerability potions, but those did not last long enough. I managed to kill a titan by myself using create bullet wall in the south east corner of the above mentioned map and waiting for approx 10 mins. If a bullet wall that I created kills a monster - will I get the Score for it? Cheers, -Sven (currently level 13) -- Sven Neuhaus, CS student at University of Dortmund, Germany/\Internet for Netrek, Doom & Empire addict.PGP key available upon request@@ the masses! KGB CIA Assassination Palestine explosive terrorist Uzi NSA\/info@ping.de From crossfire-request Fri May 20 16:42:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from pp.dundee.ac.uk (pp.dundee.ac.uk [134.36.2.60]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 20 May 1994 16:41:42 +0200 Received: from pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk by pp.dundee.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <10440-0@pp.dundee.ac.uk>; Fri, 20 May 1994 15:40:45 +0100 Received: from ness.mcs.dund.ac.uk (ness.mcs.dundee.ac.uk) by pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22869; Fri, 20 May 94 15:41:02 BST Date: Fri, 20 May 94 15:41:02 BST From: cdarlast@mcs.dundee.ac.uk (Chris Darlaston) Message-Id: <9405201441.AA22869@pop.mcs.dundee.ac.uk> To: crossfire@no.uio.ifi Subject: Prepare Weapon Scroll Content-Type: X-sun-attachment Status: RO ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: text X-Sun-Data-Description: text X-Sun-Data-Name: text X-Sun-Content-Lines: 14 I have recently got the Prepare Weapon scroll. Upon obtaining the right number of gems, booze and food that I wanted, I tried to prepare a Darkblade sword. I had removed the enchantments on the sword so that they would not interfere, but I got the message that the weapon was not the first item in my inventory. I dropped all my other stuff in a different location and tried again. I was only carrying the sword and the scroll. The offering were on the ground. I still had the same problem. I cannot get someone else to enchant the weapon for me as it becomes their sword then. Can someone help???? I have included the player file also incase that will help out. Chris Darlaston (cdarlast@mcs.dundee.ac.uk) ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: default X-Sun-Data-Description: default X-Sun-Data-Name: Dancer.pl X-Sun-Content-Lines: 365 checksum 410a662 password EPLDobUVrOn6g gen_hp 1 gen_sp 11 listening 9 spell 62 shoottype 2 berzerk 1 peaceful 1 scroll 0 digestion 2 pickup 0 keyboard_flush 0 map /city/taverns/inn weapon_sp 0.427107 Str 17 Dex 21 Con 17 Int 22 Wis 22 Cha 19 key (null) 9 A cast protection from poison key F1 12 N cast detect magic key F2 13 N cast burning hands key F2 13 N cast identify key F10 14 A cast charisma key F3 15 A cast alchemy key F11 16 A pickup 0 key F4 17 A cast armour key F12 18 A cast armor key F12 18 A cast armour key F12 18 A pickup 4 key F5 19 N cast burning hands key F6 21 N cast firebolt key (null) 22 A cast medium healing key F7 23 N cast frostbolt key F8 24 N cast icestorm key F9 25 A cast strength key F21 28 A cast destruction key F24 52 A cast cure poison key (null) 55 A cast word of recall lev_array 10 6 4 7 3 5 4 4 6 8 4 6 3 5 5 6 3 3 4 8 4 known_spell alchemy known_spell antimagic rune known_spell armour known_spell build bullet wall known_spell build director known_spell burning hands known_spell cancellation known_spell charisma known_spell confusion known_spell constitution known_spell counterwall known_spell create bomb known_spell create earth wall known_spell create fire wall known_spell create food known_spell create pool of chaos known_spell cure poison known_spell destruction known_spell detect curse known_spell detect magic known_spell detect monster known_spell dexterity known_spell dimension door known_spell earth to dust known_spell fear known_spell firebolt known_spell frostbolt known_spell haste known_spell holy word known_spell icestorm known_spell identify known_spell improved invisibility known_spell large bullet known_spell large fireball known_spell large lightning known_spell levitate known_spell magic bullet known_spell magic drain known_spell magic mapping known_spell magic missile known_spell major healing known_spell marking rune known_spell mass confusion known_spell medium healing known_spell mystic fist known_spell paralyze known_spell poison cloud known_spell protection from fire known_spell protection from poison known_spell protection from slow known_spell remove curse known_spell restoration known_spell rune of blasting known_spell rune of fire known_spell rune of frost known_spell rune of shocking known_spell rune of transferrence known_spell small lightning known_spell strength known_spell summon air elemental known_spell summon earth elemental known_spell summon fire elemental known_spell summon golem known_spell summon pet monster known_spell summon water elemental known_spell turn undead known_spell word of recall endplst arch wizard name Dancer face wizard.151 Str 17 Dex 21 Con 16 Wis 22 Cha 18 Int 22 hp 102 maxhp 102 sp 114 maxsp 114 exp 4866420 food 517 dam 10 wc 2 ac 7 x 13 y 14 speed 0.672861 speed_left -0.363538 level 17 attacktype 20 carrying 409332 last_heal 5 last_eat 16 reflect_missile 1 reflect_spell 1 been_applied 1 arch depletion Con -1 Cha -1 applied 1 known_magical 1 end arch sack end arch bracers_dex identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch speedboots face speedboots.112 speed_left -0.100000 state 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch gauntlets_str identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch girdle_str face girdle_str.112 speed_left -0.298597 state 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch mithril_chainmail face mithril_ar.113 speed_left -0.898619 immune 4 state 2 magic 4 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch helmet_of_brilliance identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch cloak title of intermediate protection ac 2 value 4000 weight 6250 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch cloak title of beguilement Cha 2 value 4000 weight 5500 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch dragon_shield been_applied 1 end arch ring face ring.114 food 1 value 1000 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch ring title of Storm msg This elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, grid of force; which protects against electricity. It also gives a fair protection against normal attacks. endmsg face ring.117 color_fg black armour 25 protected 8 value 12500 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch ring title of Acid msg This elemental ring is one of those made at the Guild of Magicks by the powerful wizards who survived the ancient war of the elementals. The wielder is surrounded by a thin, almost invisible, globe of base liquid; which protects against acid. It also gives a fair protection against normal attacks. endmsg face ring.117 color_fg black armour 20 protected 64 value 12500 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch sack end arch sack carrying 82822 arch ruby nrof 90 end arch pearl nrof 153 end arch improve_con nrof 3 end arch improve_damage end arch improve_weight nrof 2 end arch silvercoin end arch goldcoin nrof 3 end arch platinacoin end arch potion_invulnerability identified 1 end arch scroll_new sp 25 value 157 identified 1 end arch scroll_new sp 75 nrof 7 value 133 identified 1 end arch dragon_steak nrof 10 end arch cake nrof 2 end arch waybread nrof 4 end end arch sack carrying 7110 arch scroll_new sp 75 nrof 7 value 133 identified 1 end arch food end end arch dragon_steak nrof 12 end arch food nrof 13 end arch booze nrof 6 end arch gem face gem.112 nrof 1000 state 1 end arch prepare_weapon end arch silvercoin nrof 3 end arch platinacoin nrof 348 end arch axe_4 title of Lythander luck 1 value 380 weight 9000 applied 1 identified 1 been_applied 1 end arch luck luck -1 applied 1 end end From crossfire-request Fri May 20 11:42:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from noc.BelWue.DE (noc.BelWue.DE [129.143.2.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 20 May 1994 11:42:23 +0200 Received: from sun1.rz.fh-heilbronn.de by noc.BelWue.DE with SMTP id AA10760 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 20 May 1994 11:42:16 +0200 Received: from linux1.rz.fh-heilbronn.de by sun1.rz.fh-heilbronn.de (4.1/BelWue-1.3SUN) id AA16564; Fri, 20 May 94 11:42:36 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 11:42:38 +0000 From: Roland Haag Subject: Some small problems To: Crossfire Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Hi! just got 0.91.0, compiled it and tried it out * I keep getting the message "error on setsockopt REUSEADDR" linux2:/home/prog/crossfire/bin# crossfire -server Welcome to CrossFire, v0.91.0 Copyright (C) 1994 Mark Wedel. Copyright (C) 1992 Frank Tore Johansen. Opening add user socket on 13326 error on setsockopt REUSEADDR: Invalid argument Waiting for connections... * How can I terminate the server apart from killing him? * With standard settings, man pages go in man1 but should go in man6 although CManSuffix is set to 6 * What's the difference between 'save and 'A' on a bed ? Ciao Roland --------------------------------------------------------- rhaag@sun1.rz.fh-heilbronn.de Medical Informatics FH Heilbronn/Uni Heidelberg, Germany From crossfire-request Fri May 20 12:43:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from wilma.cs.city.ac.uk (root@wilma.cs.city.ac.uk [138.40.91.9]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 20 May 1994 12:43:04 +0200 Received: by wilma.cs.city.ac.uk (Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0q4S2D-00001hC; Fri, 20 May 94 11:42 BST Received: from Messages.8.5.N.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.wilma.cs.city.ac.uk.sun4.41 via MS.5.6.wilma.cs.city.ac.uk.sun4_41; Fri, 20 May 1994 11:42:33 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 11:42:33 +0100 (BST) From: Nick Williams To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, gs@ivu-berlin.de (Gregor Schmid) Subject: Re: Improve weapon scrolls In-Reply-To: <9405200649.AA49621@bvg.ivu-berlin.de> References: <199405192146.AA18145@bolero.rahul.net> <9405200649.AA49621@bvg.ivu-berlin.de> Status: RO Excerpts from games.Crossfire: 20-May-94 Re: Improve weapon scrolls Gregor Schmid@ivu-berlin (883) > The restrictions that only the person that uses the prepare weapon > scroll can use the weapon and that you can't enchant beyond your level > are nice (read: absolutely essential), but how about a bit of extra > risk ? I remember someone once mentioning summoning of devils, etc. If this happens, then you could use the "surge" of magic to attract demons, as if summoning.... in fact. A highly magical artifact would in general attract violent/evil/nasty/magical/bad things from the netherworld (and this world). ?>A demon appears in a cloud of smoke. ?>"I want your weapon" the demon says. ?>"now" the demon says. ?>you die. Nick Williams, Systems Architecture Research Centre, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. UK. Web: http://web.cs.city.ac.uk/finger?njw E-mail: njw@cs.city.ac.uk (MIME and ATK) Work Telephone: +44 71 477 8551 Work Fax: +44 71 477 8587 From crossfire-request Fri May 20 12:11:01 1994 Return-Path: Received: from ild.alkymi.unit.no (ild.alkymi.unit.no [129.241.113.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 20 May 1994 12:11:00 +0200 Received: from jord.alkymi.unit.no by ild.alkymi.unit.no with SMTP id AA06913 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 20 May 1994 12:10:54 +0200 From: Inge Berg Fenstad Received: by jord.alkymi.unit.no ; Fri, 20 May 1994 12:11:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199405201011.AA19468@jord.alkymi.unit.no> Subject: Re: playing tips? To: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu (Peter Mardahl) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 12:11:18 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405191811.LAA16165@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 19, 94 11:11:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 109 Status: RO Forgetting about burning hands.....? using burning hands and you kill the skulls like ducks on a wire Inge From crossfire-request Fri May 20 12:01:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from sunmbx.netmbx.de (sunmbx.netmbx.de [192.76.152.9]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 20 May 1994 12:00:58 +0200 Received: by sunmbx.netmbx.de (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1) from tmpmbx.netmbx.de with smtp id ; Fri, 20 May 94 12:03 MET DST Received: by tmpmbx.netmbx.de (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6) id ; Fri, 20 May 94 11:58 MES Received: from bvg.ivu-berlin.de by ivu.ivu-berlin.de with SMTP id AA11772 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 20 May 1994 08:46:08 +0200 Received: by bvg.ivu-berlin.de (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49621; Fri, 20 May 1994 08:49:52 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 08:49:52 +0200 From: gs@ivu-berlin.de (Gregor Schmid) Message-Id: <9405200649.AA49621@bvg.ivu-berlin.de> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Improve weapon scrolls In-Reply-To: <199405192146.AA18145@bolero.rahul.net> References: <199405192146.AA18145@bolero.rahul.net> Status: RO Mark Wedel writes: > you sure can - the Enchant Weapon scroll will increase the magic of > the weapon by 1. In the case of the taifu, the magic is also used to > determine teh ac bonus. > This looks a bit too easy to me, i.e. all you need is a lot of money (resp. diamonds pearls etc.) and the right scrolls and you can get a weapon that unbalances the game. The restrictions that only the person that uses the prepare weapon scroll can use the weapon and that you can't enchant beyond your level are nice (read: absolutely essential), but how about a bit of extra risk ? In nethack the probability of overenchanting increases with the level of enchantment. This wouldn't have to lead to the destruction of the weapon, but maybe could reduce the enchantment or curse the weapon or some other little nasties (as well as wasting all those precious gems...). Regards, Greg From crossfire-request Fri May 20 00:50:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu (hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.1.108]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 20 May 1994 00:50:02 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id PAA27514; Thu, 19 May 1994 15:36:47 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405192236.PAA27514@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: old city question To: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405192133.AA11775@taz> from "Jim Dipalma" at May 19, 94 05:33:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 975 Status: RO > > I can get to everything that I expect to be able to in the old city. > Can you be more specific? I know that there are boulders all over, > but I can't remember being unable to get to anyplace that I could > see. > The enterances I have found to the old city include: > a small well, gatehouse secret door, Dark Well, Drinking fountain > (the last don't really get you into the old-city quest area). > > I have also found a quest, but have been unable to use the altar; > after finding the two items required, I could not activate the altar. > Can someone tell me if this is possible? So I know if it is worth > continued effort. yes...it is possible..but there are 3...items..not 2. :> as far as the reward...well....at the end...i didnt really put much of one in......it would be the resposibility of the server god to throw a reward down there :> I really should put something down there for the default distribution..but i haven't had time as of yet t. From crossfire-request Thu May 19 23:51:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 23:51:54 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA22731 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 19 May 1994 14:51:43 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA18544 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 19 May 1994 14:51:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:51:42 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405192151.AA18544@bolero.rahul.net> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: playing tips? Status: RO One thing that I think has changed is that having spell casting ability in characters is much more important now. Against those skulls, remove confusion helps out a lot (although, there are scrolls of it). But I think in most cases, any character with any spell casting ability will have a great advantage over those that lack the ability. From crossfire-request Thu May 19 23:46:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 23:46:45 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA22578 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 19 May 1994 14:46:33 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA18145 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 19 May 1994 14:46:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:46:32 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405192146.AA18145@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@ptc.com Subject: Re: Improve weapon scrolls Status: RO you sure can - the Enchant Weapon scroll will increase the magic of the weapon by 1. In the case of the taifu, the magic is also used to determine teh ac bonus. From crossfire-request Thu May 19 23:45:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 23:45:18 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA22507 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 19 May 1994 14:45:11 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA18085 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 19 May 1994 14:45:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:45:10 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405192145.AA18085@bolero.rahul.net> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: fixing bug in 0.91.0? Status: RO This patch should make summon pet monster work safely: (apply to server/attack.c) *************** *** 203,212 **** * to avoid ever being hit by monsters. */ if (QUERY_FLAG(op, FLAG_MONSTER) && op->speed_left > -(FABS(op->speed))*0.3) { process_object(op); if (QUERY_FLAG(op, FLAG_FREED)) return 1; - op->speed_left--; } add_refcount(op_name = op->name); if(hitter->head!=NULL) --- 203,218 ---- * to avoid ever being hit by monsters. */ if (QUERY_FLAG(op, FLAG_MONSTER) && op->speed_left > -(FABS(op->speed))*0.3) { + + /* Decrease speed BEFORE calling process_object. Otherwise, an + * infinite loop occurs, with process_object calling move_monster, + * which then gets here again. By decreasing the speed before + * we call process_object, the 'if' statement above will fail. + */ + op->speed_left--; process_object(op); if (QUERY_FLAG(op, FLAG_FREED)) return 1; } add_refcount(op_name = op->name); if(hitter->head!=NULL) You should probably use the '-l' option of patch to apply this, since I just did a copy/paste between xterms, which tends to replace tabs by spaces. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 19 23:32:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 23:32:42 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA21449; Thu, 19 May 94 17:31:54 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA11775; Thu, 19 May 94 17:33:53 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 May 94 17:33:53 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405192133.AA11775@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: old city question content-length: 624 Status: RO I can get to everything that I expect to be able to in the old city. Can you be more specific? I know that there are boulders all over, but I can't remember being unable to get to anyplace that I could see. The enterances I have found to the old city include: a small well, gatehouse secret door, Dark Well, Drinking fountain (the last don't really get you into the old-city quest area). I have also found a quest, but have been unable to use the altar; after finding the two items required, I could not activate the altar. Can someone tell me if this is possible? So I know if it is worth continued effort. -jim From crossfire-request Thu May 19 23:23:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 23:22:47 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA00614; Thu, 19 May 1994 14:21:39 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405192121.OAA00614@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: old city question and question on maze leading to it. To: jason@idiom.berkeley.ca.us (Jason Venner) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405192024.NAA04022@idiom.berkeley.ca.us> from "Jason Venner" at May 19, 94 01:24:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 486 Status: RO > > > > oldcity: I gather that there is a quest that starts down there and a > secret door. I can't sem to find ether or much of a path through the > boulders. > > Are Maze: are there any other entrances besides the two wells near the > newbie tower? There seem to be things that can not be reached via > those two entrances in it. > There are several entrances to the old city...... two wells...the drinking fountain, and the secret entrance hidden in the gatehouse. tyler. From crossfire-request Thu May 19 22:24:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from idiom.berkeley.ca.us (idiom.berkeley.ca.us [140.174.82.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 22:24:24 +0200 Received: from idiom.berkeley.ca.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.berkeley.ca.us (8.6.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA04022 for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 13:24:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199405192024.NAA04022@idiom.berkeley.ca.us> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: old city question and question on maze leading to it. Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 13:24:20 -0700 From: Jason Venner Status: RO oldcity: I gather that there is a quest that starts down there and a secret door. I can't sem to find ether or much of a path through the boulders. Are Maze: are there any other entrances besides the two wells near the newbie tower? There seem to be things that can not be reached via those two entrances in it. Jason From crossfire-request Thu May 19 20:33:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 20:33:29 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA18450; Thu, 19 May 1994 11:33:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 11:33:24 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405191833.LAA18450@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, tcg6y@fulton.seas.virginia.edu Subject: Re: Save commands Status: RO In order to save out of a game, WITHOUT destroying your character, you must use the key 'A' on a save-bed. save-beds can be found in inns and some other places. Adventurer's Inn near the center of Scorn has some of these beds. Ask the person who maintains your server for the help-files that come with the game. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 19 20:31:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 20:31:19 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA18284; Thu, 19 May 1994 11:31:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 11:31:14 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405191831.LAA18284@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jimdipalma@PTC.COM Subject: Re: Improve weapon scrolls Status: RO Yes, you MAY use a scroll to improve the magical bonus of a weapon. I have a +17 taifu myself, created perfectly legitimately. No cheating. The user is one MEAN wizard. The scroll needed is 'enchant weapon'. regards, peterm From crossfire-request Thu May 19 20:12:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 20:12:21 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA16165; Thu, 19 May 1994 11:11:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 11:11:51 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405191811.LAA16165@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: playing tips? Status: RO I don't agree with having so many monsters immune to magic. Most especially, i do *not* agree with having SPELLCASTING monsters be immune to magic.... However, you're faced with the current problem of dealing with skulls. There is ONE spell which you may use to make skulls regret their existence. That spell is 'create bomb' it is the ONLY spell right now, besides 'comet', which can damage magic-immune monsters. Actually, face of death would work too, if you're of high enough level, however: face of death is currently an impossible spell to have.... No one has created a quest for it, and the spell is 'turned off'. (So that it cannot be found in shops, etc.) PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 19 20:05:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 20:05:46 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA15366; Thu, 19 May 1994 11:05:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 11:05:38 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405191805.LAA15366@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: fixing bug in 0.91.0? Status: RO You can indeed remove the summon pet monster spell from the game entirely. In spellist.h therer is a big array. the entries 3-5 i think have to do with whether you can find wands or scrolls of spells. An example of a completely turned off spell is 'face of death' do something similar to summon pet monster. Mark has said he will fix this bug for the 91.1 version. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 19 18:40:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 18:40:55 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <12980-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Thu, 19 May 1994 17:40:44 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 May 94 17:40:40 BST From: L T Mulheron Message-Id: <9405191640.AA29026@sentinel.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Crossing rivers Status: RO Thanks for the replies to my Dragon Scale and Enchant Weapon Query. Now then how does one cross a river (to get to the dungeon in the strange mountain)?? L.M. From crossfire-request Thu May 19 17:34:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 17:34:22 +0200 Received: from fulton.seas.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa22550; 19 May 94 11:34 EDT Received: by fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (5.67a8/1.34) id AA69990; Thu, 19 May 1994 11:34:17 -0400 From: Thomas Castle Grein Message-Id: <199405191534.AA69990@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Save commands To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 11:34:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 161 Status: RO Hello all, I was wondering what the commands were to quit the game, but not delete the character, I can't seem to find that. Thanks, Tom G. tcg6y@virginia.edu From crossfire-request Thu May 19 15:06:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 15:06:26 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA19964; Thu, 19 May 94 09:05:38 EDT Received: by taz (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:crossfire@ifi.uio.no id AA10728; Thu, 19 May 94 09:07:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 May 94 09:07:35 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405191307.AA10728@taz> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Improve weapon scrolls content-length: 217 Status: RO Can I use improve weapon scrolls to increase the magical bonus on a weapon. As a wizard, I find using taifu's to be very useful and would like to increase the bonus so that my character's ac can improve. -jim From crossfire-request Thu May 19 10:30:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 10:30:36 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <27022-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Thu, 19 May 1994 09:30:32 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 May 94 09:30:30 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405190830.AA06453@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: fixing bug in 0.91.0? Status: RO Hi, this bug to do with reading a summon pet monster scroll - is there any way this could be prevented from happening in the version we all currently have? Is there a way to take that spell completely out of the game then recompile? Ie could we stop spellbooks and scrolls and wands of summon pet monster from being created in the first place? Thanks, Sy From crossfire-request Thu May 19 10:28:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 10:28:45 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <26960-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Thu, 19 May 1994 09:28:40 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 May 94 09:28:39 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405190828.AA06448@garnet.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: playing tips? Status: RO Does anyone have a collection of playing tips? Over the last 12 monsths or so Crossfire has changed a lot. Some of the monsters have got much harder to kill and pose a much more difficult threat. So if you've found a way of smashing those skulls, wrecking those wyverns or hammering the hill giants, why not let the rest of us know? We could build an "Adventurer's Guide to Monsters", giving tips on what strategies are effective against the creatures found in the Crossfire world. My personal motivation for this is that skulls pose me much more of a problem than they used to. My character is a 12th level barbarian, and he's fairly well equipped with good armour, rings, rods of firebolt, +4 sword etc. But if he finds a room of skulls it's almost impossible to deal with them unless they stupidly come out of the room one by one (which of course they don't). Before you could step into the room, fire a few "large fireballs" from your trusty wand, and then you'd have a chance to take a few of them out before you got confused and you had to hobble away dodging all the spellfire. Now though, as they are immune to magical, what do you do? Is there any way to take them on, or at least soften them up at a distance? So, any specific tips on the above to me, but general tips on how to tackle your favourite monster should go to the list. Perhaps I'll collect them together to form that "Guide" I mentioned earlier! Happy hunting! Sy ( web crossfire pages: http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/Crossfire/ ) Simon N. McIntosh-Smith, PhD candidate | Email : Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk Room M/1.36 Department of Computing Maths | Phone : +44 (0)222 874000 University of Wales, College of Cardiff | Fax : +44 (0)222 666182 PO Box 916, Cardiff, Wales, CF2 4YN, U.K. | Home : +44 (0)222 560522 Http : http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/People/Simon.Smith.html From crossfire-request Thu May 19 06:52:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 06:52:04 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA19690 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 May 1994 21:51:52 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA11703 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no); Wed, 18 May 1994 21:51:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 21:51:51 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405190451.AA11703@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Improve weapon scrolls. Status: RO I've taken the recent postings describing how to work with them, added a few more, clean them up, and put them in the Survival Guide file. It might belong more in the spoilers file. But here is what I have: Improve item scrolls: These are used to turn non magical weapons into magical weapons. These magical weapons can do many things - improve stats, have lower weight, higher damage, etc. For each improve scroll & prepare weapon scroll, at least 10 food and 5 booze must be on the ground. How much the ability is raised depends on the amount of item donated, with each scroll requiring that something be donated. Here is a short list: Prepare weapons: Diamonds (Gems) are required for the sacrifice. The item can be enchanted the square root of the number of diamonds sacrificed. Thus, if 100 diamonds are sacrificed, the weapon can have 10 other enchant scrolls read. Improve damage: The square root of the number of rubies determines how much the damage will go up. Weight is also increased. The maximum damage a weapon can ever do is 70. Improve weight: The square root of the number of pearls determines how much the weight is reduced. Improve Stat (ie, Strength, Dexterity, etc): The sacrifice is the potion of the same type as the ability to be increased (ie, Improve Strength requires strength potions). The amount increased is the square root of (sacrifice/2). --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 19 05:59:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 05:59:54 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA18112 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 May 1994 20:59:45 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA07999 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 18 May 1994 20:59:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 20:59:45 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405190359.AA07999@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: pixmap coloring Status: RO In general, if I have multiple colorings for the same objects, I make a judgement call of which one should be in the standard distribution, and the other ones go into the dev/xpm_pref directory. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 19 03:31:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 19 May 1994 03:31:03 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id SAA18773 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Wed, 18 May 1994 18:30:57 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 18:30:57 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405190130.SAA18773@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: pixmap coloring Status: RO I find that i really dislike the way some of the pixmaps have been colored.... Some of the colorings are actually much WORSE than black and white would have been. In particular, the undead are pretty indistinct.... the outlined skeletons gave a much better impressions of skeletonness than the currentones.... Some of the coloring is awesome, others not so..... How should we decide which to use? (assuming i re-do the coloring) Regards, peterm From crossfire-request Wed May 18 23:27:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 23:27:35 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA01280 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 May 1994 14:27:28 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA08624 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 18 May 1994 14:27:27 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 14:27:27 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405182127.AA08624@bolero.rahul.net> To: L.T.Mulheron@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Dragons scales and Enchantment scrolls Status: RO A few additional notes.. In 91.1, it will be possible to find improve weapon scrolls anyplace, but they have a very low chance of creation (the treasure lists have been moved out of the treasure.c file and into the lib/treasures file, giving better control of probabilities). I believe as it is now, about 1:20 scrolls created will be an improve weapon (of which there are 8 types or so). So finding them still will not be that easy. In the old code, it looks like they were supposed to appear in shops, but due to the way the code was, this could never happen. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 18 23:24:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 23:24:37 +0200 Received: from polaris.cc.utu.fi by utu.fi id <166766-1>; Thu, 19 May 1994 00:24:27 +0300 Subject: Re: more notes on prepare/improve weapon From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 00:24:13 +0300 In-Reply-To: <199405182029.NAA04603@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 18, 94 11:29:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 614 Message-Id: <94May19.002427eet_dst.166766-1@utu.fi> Status: RO > Some more notes on preparing a weapon: ... 3) If you want a really good weapon start with darkblade or something equal. The only limit is that the magic bonus must be 0 when you start. This is quite easy to get when you have the spells "cancelation" and "build director". Carry only that sword, wielded and cast the cancelation so that it will bounce multiple times over you. The reason for starting with a darkblade is that it is not made of iron and thus never can be damaged by acid. Also you get some nice bonuses like immune drain, protect poison, regenerate +1 and some stats in the case of darkblade. From crossfire-request Wed May 18 23:23:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 23:23:12 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA01118 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 May 1994 14:22:52 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA08309 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 18 May 1994 14:22:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 14:22:50 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405182122.AA08309@bolero.rahul.net> To: Inge.Fenstad@alkymi.unit.no, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: CF:crashing bug in 91.0 Status: RO Actually, I believed I fixed this problem for 91.1. I know that there used to be a problem with speedballs hitting non players (happens a lot in hte north barn map of Santa Dominion), and I fixed that up. I'll try creating some bombs at the edge of a map and see what happens. --Mark From crossfire-request Wed May 18 22:30:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 22:30:23 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id NAA04603; Wed, 18 May 1994 13:29:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 13:29:49 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405182029.NAA04603@soda.berkeley.edu> To: L.T.Mulheron@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: more notes on prepare/improve weapon Status: RO Some more notes on preparing a weapon: 1) do NOT improve the weapon more times than you have levels. You cannot use a weapon which has had more improvements than you have levels: it is "too powerful to use, and would consume your soul". 2) do NOT have ANYONE but the person you want to USE THE WEAPON apply the prepare weapon scroll. The weapon belongs SOLELY to the person who used the scroll, no one else may use it. PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 18 22:26:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 22:26:00 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id NAA04058; Wed, 18 May 1994 13:25:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 13:25:23 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405182025.NAA04058@soda.berkeley.edu> To: L.T.Mulheron@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Dragons scales and Enchantment scrolls Status: RO L.T., in order to prepare a weapon, you need the scroll. This may be found in the bottom of one of the more difficult dungeons. (Or can i my map set.... chico is using a different set of maps now) the entrance to where the prepare weapon scroll can be found is near the north bend in the road that leads east from scorn. It's hidden in the mountains that are to the north of that bend, and slightly to the west. Yoiu must find the 'strange mountain' and apply it: it is a hidden entrance. I know of noplace to take scales for a free conversion. I thought it was somewhat silly to have to play full price for it, since you're supplying the raw material, but whatever. Using a prepare weapon scroll is tricky. You must collect some food, some booze, and *lots* of diamonds. You may improve the weapon sqrt( #diamonds you use) times. So you'd relaly like to use *lots* of diamonds. You also want to collect different types of scrolls..... There are about eight or nine types. Improve bonus, where is cha,dex,int,wis,str,con, improve improve weight enchant enchant requires nothing other than food. improve requires rubies. damage is improved by sqrt(#rubies) weight is improved by sqrt(#pearls) is improved by sqrt(#potions/2) It does you no good to have more food and booze than the minimum. (which is 5 and 10 respectively) I learned all this by hacking the code. With enough resource (millions in gold) you can make a single item which will raise your stats to 30 in all categories. Do not try to improve the damage of your weapon beyond 90 or so. The maximum damage you can do is 127. If your weapon + magic bonus + strength bonus is greater tahn 127, then the damage you do will become *negative*, and you'll have the Sword of Monster Healing on your hands. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 18 22:13:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 22:13:23 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id NAA02590; Wed, 18 May 1994 13:12:42 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 13:12:42 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405182012.NAA02590@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Inge.Fenstad@alkymi.unit.no, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: CF:crashing bug in 91.0 Status: RO I'm not exactly sure about this bug you report. I've seen similar things happening, i think it happens when a bomb explodes off by the edge and it tries to insert 'splints' outside the map same thing with speedballwalls: when they try to shoot outside of the map.... Certainly the thing with the speedballwalls seems to happen more when they're near the edge of a map. This could be totally wrong, of course, but it may give any bug-catchers out there a start..... PeterM From crossfire-request Wed May 18 17:22:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 17:22:38 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <25035-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 18 May 1994 16:22:31 +0100 Date: Wed, 18 May 94 16:22:27 BST From: L T Mulheron Message-Id: <9405181522.AA14250@sentinel.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Dragons scales and Enchantment scrolls Status: RO Hi, After killing my first ever fire-breathing dragon and gaining a dragon scale + an Enchant Weapon scroll, I've found to my disappointment that when I dropped the scale on a smithies dragon shield anvil I still had to pay the normal price for that shield. Surely if this is the case I might as well sell the scale and buy the shield when I see it in a shop. Also the scroll requires the weapon to be prepared before it can be used. I've seen a few references to prepare weapon scrolls in the messages on this archive so I obviously need to obtain one of them. However, the messages also mention that prepare scrolls also need potions/diamonds? So could someone explain all this as I'm a tad confused by it all. Cheers, a fellow dragon-slayer...8-). From crossfire-request Wed May 18 15:24:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 15:24:23 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <12084-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Wed, 18 May 1994 14:24:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 18 May 94 14:24:10 BST From: L T Mulheron Message-Id: <9405181324.AA09861@sentinel.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: subscribe Status: RO From crossfire-request Wed May 18 13:27:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from ild.alkymi.unit.no (ild.alkymi.unit.no [129.241.113.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 13:27:57 +0200 Received: from vann.alkymi.unit.no by ild.alkymi.unit.no with SMTP id AA13749 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 18 May 1994 13:27:51 +0200 From: Inge Berg Fenstad Received: by vann.alkymi.unit.no ; Wed, 18 May 1994 13:27:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199405181127.AA14678@vann.alkymi.unit.no> Subject: CF:crashing bug in 91.0 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 13:27:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1178 Status: RO I have experienced several crashes with version 0.91.0. the following messages are produced in the debug-log: Trying to insert in null-map! arch splint name splint face splint.111 color_fg yellow dam 6 wc 8 speed 0.500000 direction 1 type 2 attacktype 1 no_pick 1 walk_on 1 flying 1 fly_on 1 end Trying to remove removed object. arch splint name splint face splint.111 color_fg yellow dam 6 wc 8 speed 0.500000 direction 1 type 2 attacktype 1 no_pick 1 walk_on 1 flying 1 fly_on 1 end OR LIKE: Trying to remove removed object. arch arrow face arrow.111 color_fg red Str 1 food 5 dam 4 wc 3 x 24 y 17 direction 1 type 13 material 16 value 1 weight 500 need_an 1 walk_on 1 flying 1 is_turnable 1 fly_on 1 end AND VERY OFTEN: Trying to remove removed object. arch speedball name speedball face speedball.111 color_fg red sp 56 exp 2 food 20 wc -20 ac 30 x 4 y 22 speed 1.000000 level 1 direction 3 type 52 attacktype 514 weight 1000 no_pick 1 is_animated 1 flying 1 monster 1 see_invisible 1 is_used_up 1 only_attack 1 end Anyone have a clue why this happen and how it can be fixed and will it be fixed in the new version. (running on a sun sparc10 SunOS 4.1.3 1) Inge From crossfire-request Wed May 18 00:25:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 18 May 1994 00:25:10 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA14838 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 17 May 1994 15:24:28 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA09575 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 17 May 1994 15:24:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 15:24:27 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405172224.AA09575@bolero.rahul.net> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mcn@c3serve.c3.lanl.gov Subject: Re: bug report Status: RO That bug should be fixed in 0.91.1. It is caused by casting summon pet monster (it can get into a infinite recursive loop that uses all stack space). So as a temporary measure until I release 91.1, just don't cast the spell (and hope monsters don't cast it either). From crossfire-request Tue May 17 19:01:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 17 May 1994 19:01:04 +0200 Received: (from tvangod@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA27243; Tue, 17 May 1994 10:00:40 -0700 From: Tyler Van Gorder Message-Id: <199405171700.KAA27243@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: How to play question To: jason@idiom.berkeley.ca.us (Jason Venner) Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, jason@idiom.berkeley.ca.us In-Reply-To: <199405170602.XAA04714@idiom.berkeley.ca.us> from "Jason Venner" at May 16, 94 11:02:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 631 Status: RO > > > 1: boulders is there a way to destroy them > much of the old city seems to be blocked by boulders that > I can not move. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ no way to destroy them....many of the boulders in the old city....were made for scenery and of course...one can hide stuff under the movable boulders :> > > 2: altars, how do you use them? > I have tried dropping things in the same square they are on, > but nothing ever happens > > Thanks > Depends on what the altar wants. could be that it wants more then one of that item.... just drop the correct number of that item ontop of the altar to trigger it. Tyler. From crossfire-request Tue May 17 16:42:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from c3.lanl.gov (c3.lanl.gov [128.165.21.50]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 17 May 1994 16:42:43 +0200 Received: (mcn@localhost) by c3.lanl.gov (8.6.8/c93112802) id IAA18774; Tue, 17 May 1994 08:42:25 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 08:42:25 -0600 From: Michael Neuman Message-Id: <199405171442.IAA18774@c3.lanl.gov> To: Simon.N.Smith@cm.cf.ac.uk, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: bug report Status: RO I had the exact same problem last night. I'm not on my home machine so I can't do the crossfire -o, but it was on a Sun LX running 4.1.3C with sound effects... -Mike From crossfire-request Tue May 17 15:35:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 17 May 1994 15:35:03 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <15773-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Tue, 17 May 1994 14:32:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 May 94 14:32:50 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405171332.AA02213@aquamarine.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: bug report Status: RO I just had v0.91.0 crash for the first time. Not sure whether the following info is enough to help the bug be tracked, but nothing was going on in particular at the time - just looking through a pile of gear that had been gathered. sendsig: bad signal stack pid=2039, sig=11 sigsp = 0xf77ff6e0, action = 0xf76e2b58, upc = 0x7e644 [1] Illegal instruction crossfire (core dumped) That was the error. We are playing on SunSPARC 2's, 32MB RAM, SunOS 4.1.3, Openwindows, compiled with gcc, Here's a crossfire -o... % crossfire -o Welcome to CrossFire, v0.91.0 Copyright (C) 1994 Mark Wedel. Copyright (C) 1992 Frank Tore Johansen. Maintained locally by: scmsns@cm.cf.ac.uk Questions and bugs should be mailed to above address. Non-standard include files: Secure: Logging: Libdir: /well/lot/Games/X/crossfire-0.91.0/lib Perm file: /forbid Shutdown file: /shutdown Save player: Save mode: 0660 Playerdir: /players Save homedir: Lock player: Unique items: Itemsdir: /unique-items Lock items: Use checksum: Tmpdir: /tmp Fontdir: /well/lot/Games/X/crossfire-0.91.0/fonts Compress: /local/bin/compress Uncompress: /local/bin/uncompress Map max timeout: 1000 Map reset: Max objects: 6000 Use_calloc: Speed_game: Use_los: CD los: CHRFONT: Use_swap_stats: Sound_effects: DM mail: scmsns@cm.cf.ac.uk Server: Port: 13326 Explore mode: Shop listings: Max_time: 120000 SunOS aquamarin 4.1.3 3 sun4c % Hope this helps in some way - it's been very stable on the whole. Sy From crossfire-request Wed Jun 1 01:28:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 01:28:40 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id QAA14661; Tue, 31 May 1994 16:28:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199405312328.QAA14661@soda.berkeley.edu> To: ftww@cs.su.oz.au cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Help with implementing Thiefly things? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 May 1994 19:40:15 +1000." <199405312118.21489.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 16:28:19 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405312118.21489.ifi@ifi.uio.no>, "Fred the Wonder Worm" writes: >This isn't what worries me. I'm worried that I might have to spend a minute >or two on every chest I find looking for traps so that I don't blow myself >into oblivion when I open it. > >Yes, thieving should be useful. But please don't make it impossible to live >if you don't have thieving capabilities. > >Cheers, >Geoff. 1) All treasure is not in chests, 2) traps' deadliness would be in line with the difficulty of the dungeon, thus, probably unable to kill you if you're not being arrogant with someone weak. 3) *I* would have strong objections to making it too much work to examine and disarm chests. There are so *many* damned chests. 4) Magical alternatives would be given.... Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed Jun 1 01:22:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 01:22:47 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id QAA14220; Tue, 31 May 1994 16:22:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199405312322.QAA14220@soda.berkeley.edu> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Skills! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 May 1994 20:32:49 +0200." Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 16:22:41 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_L udvigsen?= writes: I'm glad we agree that in-the-field experience should result in advancement in only related areas. >But, to prevent this, I propose adding a new type of books to the >game, books which give you the nessecary theory to practice the skill >on your own. You must agree, one simply cannot learn Monster Lore >without some theory to back it up. "book of Monster Lore". I like this much better. >> Why would anyone want to specialize in Broadsword instead of >>General? Then he'll be handicapped when he finds the Long Sword of >>Holy Avenging, which he would DEFINITELY want to use, or some weapon >>like the Axe of Biff, or the CSUA Bat. > >Because General Weapon Use would be much more expensive. A skill level >in Broadsword would (initially) cost 2 points, whereas General Weapon >use would cost 8 points. Weapons skills are related. The same muscles and experience that allows someone to swing a sword around probably also allow him to use other weapons effectively also. It is easier to pick up a second fighting skill having learned the body control necessary for one. Therefore, even training in a specialty should also be applied in part to training in the general skill. As a real life example, black-belts in any martial arts disciple often advance *very* quickly in others. They have built up the necessary coordination, agility, stamina, and mental discipline which are the core requirements of all martial arts. Having picked up ANY fighting skill, then, should reduce the cost of picking up a second fighting skill by a very great deal, and the third should also be reduced even MORE. Also, my fencing is weak, but it seems to me that skill with the Broadsword is so readily applicable to Long Sword and Short Sword that it is unnecessary to distinguish between them..... So the fighting skills should be thus: Sword--Ball & Chain--Polearm--Axe & Hammer--Sticks--Archery >If a character finds an Artifact of any kind, he simply places it on No one would ever want to train in any skill other than Sword, then, because all the coolest artifacts are swords. Holy Avenger, Defender, Darkblade, Demonbane, Dragonslayer, Stormbringer, Mournblade.... These are the best, and these are all swords. >Ok, so maybe not all the way down to zero/none, BUT: as the >information needed to learn a spell to this level (20) is only >available in the Long Lost Tome of Abysmal Icemagic (soon to be found >in your local branch of Gandalf's... NOT!), it should be pretty good. I happen to think that learning the spell of Small fireball should make it easier to learn and be effective with Medium Fireball, and Large Fireball, and might even help with Burning Hands, and other missile spells like Comet, large bullet, magic bullet. I think dividing magic skills by spell is bad. Dividing by path is better, but I think the whole field of channeling mana to produce effects is so inter-related that learning in any one area should enhance all the rest. >> 3) Your proposal is a lot more complicated than my 4-skill proposal. >> A multitude of new skills would have to be added. My proposal is >> a good deal of work, but clerics are in the game, mages are in the >> game, and fighting is in the game. Thieves are NOT in the game. >You'd have to add quite a few new skills, yes. But not really all that >many "unknown", when you think about it. Weapon skills are easy to Yes they ARE 'unknown'. Right NOW all weapons are THE SAME. The code treats them identically. We'd have to put in code to maintain a list of weapon types and interdependencies, code to handle training, code to handle loading and unloading of these lists for players, etc. BIIIIIG project. HORDES of debugging. The same goes for magic spells. Distinctions would be put in where none were before, BY SPELL. We're talking, lots of new code here...... I'd estimate the complexity at seven or eight times my 4-skills proposal. Also, there is player complexity to be considered. 4 skill areas is enough for flavor, i think.... It distinguishes the major classes more sharply. A great many skills could become cumbersome for the player much the same way that inventories are now. A lot of work would have to be done to provide an actual, usable interface. Interface needed for 4 skills areas: 1 new stat, power, 3 new levels, 3 new experience point fields. Easily a factor of ten in complexity here. >I'd like there to be a possibility to learn a spell very good and >perhaps not to be equally good at another spell. This is already sort of in the code. The level dependencies on spells address this issue. A spell you've just learned (it's level is near yours) is cast more weakly than you learn how to do it later when you've gained some more experience. And i don't see why a great mage couldn't learn say, burning hands for the first time, smack his head, and say, 'oh, i see, how trivial' and really blast out awesome burning hands spells right off. Also, rgg (Rupert) has added spell-paths, so broad areas of spells can have different effectiveness for different players. >In general, not making everybody know the same things equally good >gives each character more personality. True, true. But not even MUD's have this capability, I think, and they don't have to deal with the additional complexity of having an x-interface, etc.... Mud players introduce personality into their characters by WHAT THEY SAY...... >That might very well be the case, indeed. But what I don't know is if >the audience would be pleased with implementing your system and stopping >there, or if they'd like my system on top of yours. A great many people have expressed support for the 4-skill proposal i made. >Would you like to stop after implementing your system, or would you >agree to my compromise mentioned on top of the message? Quite frankly, yes, I'd be happy to stop. I can see pretty clearly everything needed to put in the 4-skill system, and have an idea of the complexity involved. The major weakness is the Thief area. I cannot do everything required to do justice to Thieves. My bitmap art just isn't up to it. The X-interface stuff is unknown to me, I'm hoping it won't be too hard to deal with. >One could of course pick any lock, including the ones on the doors >which you now have to bash down if you don't have a key. I'd say there >are a lot of locks out there, just waiting to be picked. The code support is not there yet. You cannot say 'pick the look on this door', and have it open yet. The door cannot have traps in it yet. >I agree on the traps. As for doors, what kind of doors would you like >to add so that we may pick the locks on them? And the chests, did you >have trapped chests in mind? What I'd like to do is make it so that doors are trapped at random. Any door at all might have a trap. This would remove the necessity of editing all the damned maps to put in trapped doors. Same with chests. Severity and level of traps would depend on the difficulty of the dungeon. >effect? Having traps without being able to disarm them isn't very Yes, that's true. >cool, and I think it would be a rather big addition to add your entire >system as well as traps in one batch. But adding both our systems Which is why I propose doing the traps/thief stuff first. >The reason thieves had no purpose before, was that characters had no >skills. Thieves are skill-based characters, as opposed to all other >classes (in crossfire). No, the reason thieves don't exist is because opening doors is riskless, traps don't exist, chests are QUITE safe to open, and there are no hidden buttons, doors for them to search and find! You'd be amazed by how much people will start acting like thiefs if they could die from a bomb in a chest. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Wed Jun 1 01:05:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from PTC.COM (poster.ptc.com [199.6.20.146]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 01:05:14 +0200 Received: from taz by PTC.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4-NN) id AA07930; Tue, 31 May 94 19:04:15 EDT Received: by taz (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) for @poster:peterm@soda.berkeley.edu id AA06829; Tue, 31 May 94 19:06:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 31 May 94 19:06:16 -0400 From: jimdipalma@PTC.COM (Jim Dipalma) Message-Id: <9405312306.AA06829@taz> To: Peter Mardahl Subject: Re: Suggestions for crossfire change. Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no content-length: 1191 Status: RO |>Change max ability levels based upon class. Fighters should have |> increased max hit points, wizards should have increased max |> spell points. | I disagree with this one. :) Under my proposal, class is obsolete, |skill areas are all that exist. Do you disagree because class dependent max attiributes is a poor technique to distinguish classes or because your proposal is a better technique for distinguishing classes? |>Assume some level dependent training. Fighters wc and damage | I'm opposed to requiring the existence of a map with a guild in it |for advancement. Right now, characters don't NEED anything besides |a savebed. Stores, etc. can all be dispensed with. I like this |flexibility. You mention this a number of times, each time in response to some game characteristic that guilds would provide. I encourage guilds for two reasons: - forcing players to return to a specified location before advancing their skills prevents players from obtaining skills _during_ combat. - guilds provide a training location for learning non-combat skills. Ex: increased hp total, pricing gems/swords/wands, curing poisons. |Regards, | |Peter M. -jim From crossfire-request Wed Jun 1 00:29:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:29:17 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06311 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 31 May 1994 15:28:52 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA28729 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 31 May 1994 15:28:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 15:28:49 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405312228.AA28729@bolero.rahul.net> To: bjornlu@ifi.uio.no, crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Skills! Cc: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Status: RO A few notes on the proposed system of micro skills: Having a multitude of weapon skills becomes fairly difficult to program. Either you need to have space for all the potential weapons in the player structure (which would be a lot), or some other method needs to be found to keep track of the skill levels. Keeping track of the specific weapon skills in the player also has the disadvantage of new weapons being added. If there is a set amount of space, and someone adds a new weapon, things really get more complicated. Also, as far as the server knows, a weapon is a weapon is a weapon. The only differences it could determine would be the name. And in a specific weapon system, I would think that once you learn one weapon, it should be easier to learn a related one. For example, it might cost the normal two points to learn club, but should be easier to learn mace, since they are similar weapons. --Mark From crossfire-request Tue May 31 22:54:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 22:54:35 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <167015-3>; Tue, 31 May 1994 23:54:27 +0300 Subject: Re: Skills! From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 23:54:14 +0300 In-Reply-To: from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?=" at May 31, 94 09:32:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 565 Message-Id: <94May31.235427eet_dst.167015-3@utu.fi> Status: RO > >>at a high skill level (10-20) reduced sp cost (all the way down to > >>none) and increased efficiency. > > This is an extremely bad idea. Omega had a system in which: > >players gained mana each level, relearning spells reduced their expense. > >Powerful spells quickly become costless, and soon i had a character > >capable of killing ANYTHING by frowning at it. > Ok, so maybe not all the way down to zero/none, BUT: as the Why not lower the 'casting time' instead? I think in many cases that is what counts more. And it would not cause any unbalancing. From crossfire-request Tue May 31 21:03:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV (gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.gov [144.47.127.21]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 21:03:44 +0200 Received: by gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV (5.4R2.01/5.40/1.0) id AA25901; Tue, 31 May 1994 14:06:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 14:06:01 -0500 From: dgreene@gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV (David Greene) Message-Id: <9405311906.AA25901@gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, games.account@usit.uio.no Subject: RE: CF: The automatic spoiler generation Status: RO >Should grayscale Postscript be made the default? I think even fewer >will be able to compile the spoilers themselves, then, but... ... I think at least a grey-scale version should be included so that those of us who don't have a color PostScript can at least have a base spoiler to go by. I tried printing the color version through GhostScript saving out to PGM and then using XV to save to postscript. This took about 40 mins for ONE page! Please include a grayscale version of the spoiler. David G. From crossfire-request Tue May 31 20:32:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from yrsa.ifi.uio.no (bjornlu@yrsa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.104.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 31 May 1994 20:32:53 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from bjornlu@localhost) by yrsa.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 31 May 1994 20:32:51 +0200 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 20:32:49 +0200 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no cc: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Skills! Message-ID: Status: RO > Several things: > 1) You get your 'points' by killing monsters, presumably, this >is how you advance in levels. I disagree that killing monsters >should enable you to become a better lock-picker. Proposal: We add the race system. We add the skills and stuff of my system, and the 4 xp pools of yours. As one aquires xp in the different pools, skill points for that pool are also aquired. Then, the skills are divided into 4 categories, fighting skills, thieving skills, magical skills and clerical skills. One may buy skill levels on skills in a category with the skill points aquired using other skills in the same category. This would mean that you after picking a lock (and aquiring the nessecary xp/skill points) would be able to practice your stealth, but any further splitting of the xp aquired would keep us busy into the 21st century. I think this is a good compromise, and I do agree with you that one shouldn't be able to practice lockpicking after having killed monsters with spells. > 2) I do not like the idea of 'guilds' to which you must go >for advancement. This REQUIRES a certain map set, and removes >much discretion of the server maintainers. I dislike the idea >of enforcing any required objects in the maps for playing the game, >because if someone wants to chuck all existing maps and start over, >he MUST put in guilds. All of them. I agree to some sense, BUT: is this really a possibility we should consider? And, if somebody wants to make the world anew and be his own god, isn't it only reasonable that if she/he doesn't give his inhabitants schools/universities/bars/guilds to practice skills in, they will not receive skills? Sounds good to me. But, to prevent this, I propose adding a new type of books to the game, books which give you the nessecary theory to practice the skill on your own. You must agree, one simply cannot learn Monster Lore without some theory to back it up. "book of Monster Lore". For some skills, like weapon skills, all you need is the weapon. Likewise for shield and armor. For spells, perhaps one could learn the spell up to skill level 10 or something without other guidance than the spellbook, but then you need the book of Advanced Fireball Theory to improve further. As for learning a skill, how about clicking RMB thrice with the needed item on top of your inventory? >>Here, you can learn skills like "General Weapon use", "Broadsword" and >>"Small Shield". If your "Broadsword" skill is 3, and you'd like to >>improve it, you pay a certain amount of skill points. It's easier to >>learn skills at low levels than at high. > Why would anyone want to specialize in Broadsword instead of >General? Then he'll be handicapped when he finds the Long Sword of >Holy Avenging, which he would DEFINITELY want to use, or some weapon >like the Axe of Biff, or the CSUA Bat. Because General Weapon Use would be much more expensive. A skill level in Broadsword would (initially) cost 2 points, whereas General Weapon use would cost 8 points. It costs more to improve the skills as the skill level becomes higher. The first level costs the standard cost. In this example I use a skill with base cost 2. Like Broadsword. Formula: cost(lvl) = base_cost*lvl The table for broadsword/general looks like this: lvl broadsword general ------------------------ 1 : 2 : 8 2 : 4 : 16 3 : 6 : 24 4 : 8 : 32 5 : 10 : 40 6 : 12 : 48 7 : 14 : 56 8 : 16 : 64 9 : 18 : 72 10 : 20 : 80 11 : 22 : 88 12 : 24 : 96 13 : 26 : 104 14 : 28 : 112 15 : 30 : 120 16 : 32 : 128 17 : 34 : 136 18 : 36 : 144 19 : 38 : 152 20 : 40 : 160 Sums: 420 1680 This is - A LOT. Let's say the skill points you get in each category is equal to the standard skill point amount in that category times your "level" in that field (for instance fighting). If the standard skill point amount is 2 (which the costs for broadsword/general are adjusted to), you will not be doing an awful lot of training at first. The table looks like this: (The 'lvl' is the characters level, 'this' is how many points you receive this level, and total is the total number of points received.) lvl this total ------------------- 1 : 2 : 2 2 : 4 : 6 3 : 6 : 12 4 : 8 : 20 5 : 10 : 30 6 : 12 : 42 7 : 14 : 56 8 : 16 : 72 9 : 18 : 90 10 : 20 : 110 11 : 22 : 132 12 : 24 : 156 13 : 26 : 182 14 : 28 : 210 15 : 30 : 240 16 : 32 : 272 17 : 34 : 306 18 : 36 : 342 19 : 38 : 380 20 : 40 : 420 21 : 42 : 462 22 : 44 : 506 23 : 46 : 552 24 : 48 : 600 25 : 50 : 650 26 : 52 : 702 27 : 54 : 756 28 : 56 : 812 29 : 58 : 870 30 : 60 : 930 31 : 62 : 992 32 : 64 : 1056 33 : 66 : 1122 34 : 68 : 1190 35 : 70 : 1260 36 : 72 : 1332 37 : 74 : 1406 38 : 76 : 1482 39 : 78 : 1560 40 : 80 : 1640 41 : 82 : 1722 42 : 84 : 1806 43 : 86 : 1892 44 : 88 : 1980 45 : 90 : 2070 46 : 92 : 2162 47 : 94 : 2256 48 : 96 : 2352 49 : 98 : 2450 50 : 100 : 2550 51 : 102 : 2652 52 : 104 : 2756 53 : 106 : 2862 54 : 108 : 2970 55 : 110 : 3080 56 : 112 : 3192 57 : 114 : 3306 58 : 116 : 3422 59 : 118 : 3540 60 : 120 : 3660 61 : 122 : 3782 62 : 124 : 3906 63 : 126 : 4032 64 : 128 : 4160 65 : 130 : 4290 66 : 132 : 4422 67 : 134 : 4556 68 : 136 : 4692 69 : 138 : 4830 70 : 140 : 4970 71 : 142 : 5112 72 : 144 : 5256 73 : 146 : 5402 74 : 148 : 5550 75 : 150 : 5700 76 : 152 : 5852 77 : 154 : 6006 78 : 156 : 6162 79 : 158 : 6320 80 : 160 : 6480 81 : 162 : 6642 82 : 164 : 6806 83 : 166 : 6972 84 : 168 : 7140 85 : 170 : 7310 86 : 172 : 7482 87 : 174 : 7656 88 : 176 : 7832 89 : 178 : 8010 Give or take some, but I think it looks pretty all right. It depends on the number of skills one may aquire in that field, but for fighting I guess this is ok. I'll need to test it out, though. For a fighter using this table, he'll have a skill level of 20 in General Weapon use at a character level of 41. That is, if he concentrates on that skill only. I might add that the 42 excess points for that level will enable him to buy 5 levels of Broadsword. So, at higher levels, it's pretty easy to aquire very good skills, if you specialize in only one weapon. I might also add that at lvl 12, a character may have a Broadsword skill of 20, which is the highest possible. The character is a very good fighter, WITH THAT WEAPON. He cannot use any other weapon. If a character finds an Artifact of any kind, he simply places it on top of his inventory, and types 'train', 'practice' or anything similar. Then, the skill is added to his skill list in his skill box (which replaces the hp/sp/food bars under the action window), in the following format: " " Which would look something like this: .---------------------------------.---. | Broadsword (16) 7 |XXX| | General Weapon use (40) 4 |XXX| <-- Scroll bar | |XXX| | |XXX| | | | | | | `---------------------------------'---' >>at a high skill level (10-20) reduced sp cost (all the way down to >>none) and increased efficiency. > This is an extremely bad idea. Omega had a system in which: >players gained mana each level, relearning spells reduced their expense. >Powerful spells quickly become costless, and soon i had a character >capable of killing ANYTHING by frowning at it. Playing crossfire >would reduce to learning a broadly-applicable spell, and getting >so good at it (zero cost, high effectiveness) that you could kill >anything. Ok, so maybe not all the way down to zero/none, BUT: as the information needed to learn a spell to this level (20) is only available in the Long Lost Tome of Abysmal Icemagic (soon to be found in your local branch of Gandalf's... NOT!), it should be pretty good. >>want to, you can be a Jack-of-all-Trades, but those who devote their >>life and time to Karate will definetly whack your butt. (KAI! *whap*) > Do I scent an installation of a system which would make it impossible >for characters to succeed alone? No, but a system where a Jack-of-all-Trades WILL be whacked by someone who have devoted their life/skill points to Karate. > The race idea is a good one, readily implementable with stat bonuses. Agreed. And, it wouldn't be all that much of a change either. We already have elves, fireborns and quetzalcoatls, it's really only a matter of changing the names of what we now call "classes". > Bjorn, you and I are aiming in sort of the same direction, but >we have these fundamental disagreements: > > 1) I think that advancement in a skill area should come from > in-the-field practice of that skill. You think that it should come > from in-the-field gain of any type of experience, then paying for > training. I happen to think it'll be more fun to be rewarded > directly for practicing skills than to acquire experience-currency > in whatever manner, and then spending it on skills. I agree (now). > 2) You would like to hard-wire guilds into the game. I think that > maps should be extremeley flexible, and that there should be very > few things required in the maps for the server to work properly. You don't really need'em, but some books on theory of skills is needed. (like spellbooks exist now, let's add skillbooks) > 3) Your proposal is a lot more complicated than my 4-skill proposal. > A multitude of new skills would have to be added. My proposal is > a good deal of work, but clerics are in the game, mages are in the > game, and fighting is in the game. Thieves are NOT in the game. You'd have to add quite a few new skills, yes. But not really all that many "unknown", when you think about it. Weapon skills are easy to add, magic-spells too. And then maybe some non-magical healing in the clerical group in addition to clerical spells, and lockpicking/stealth/pickpocketing etc in the thievery group. I don't know... It's pretty much only another way of seeing things, you'd like thieving-abilities to come automatically and everybody to be able to use any weapon, I'd like people to be able to choose what to learn. That's the main differences. And, not to be forgotten, you'd like mages/clerics to be able to learn as many spells as they want. I'd like there to be a possibility to learn a spell very good and perhaps not to be equally good at another spell. In general, not making everybody know the same things equally good gives each character more personality. >I suggest that you and I are going in the same direction, however. >My 4-skill proposal is sort of a stripped-down version of your proposal. >mage-cleric-fighting-thief are like general skills in your description. >Perhaps it might be easier to go to your system FROM mine, rather than >trying to put yours in to start. That might very well be the case, indeed. But what I don't know is if the audience would be pleased with implementing your system and stopping there, or if they'd like my system on top of yours. Would you like to stop after implementing your system, or would you agree to my compromise mentioned on top of the message? >I also would like to note that it would be bad if you installed your >system, and made a bunch of skills such as lock-picking, only to >find that there are NO LOCKS in the game to pick! One could of course pick any lock, including the ones on the doors which you now have to bash down if you don't have a key. I'd say there are a lot of locks out there, just waiting to be picked. >I think that in the immediate future, our paths are together: >before making radical changes to the basic philosophy of the game, >we should build the prerequisites. Let's put in the locks to pick >the traps to disarm, the chests to loot, before we install any >system of skills. I agree on the traps. As for doors, what kind of doors would you like to add so that we may pick the locks on them? And the chests, did you have trapped chests in mind? >Let us first put the things in the game to which the skills shall be >applied, because: > 1) it won't leave crossfire broken if we proceed in small steps > to our goal but one of us finds our will to continue the > project gone That's a good point. But, how about adding your xp pools and my skill system, and THEN adding the SKILLS at the same time they come into effect? Having traps without being able to disarm them isn't very cool, and I think it would be a rather big addition to add your entire system as well as traps in one batch. But adding both our systems together, save the thievery-skills of Disarm/Spot Traps, and then adding them when traps come into effect... > 2) everyone seems to agree that adding Thiefly Things is Good, The reason thieves had no purpose before, was that characters had no skills. Thieves are skill-based characters, as opposed to all other classes (in crossfire). > 3) it serves your skill proposal, my skill proposal, AND those > who think the current system is just fine. Those who think it's fine as it is will like it for a while more, but then what? I say we change it as soon as possible - if the public agrees. Well everybody, do ya? - Bjorn From crossfire-request Tue May 31 19:14:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 19:14:46 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id UAA14420; Tue, 31 May 1994 20:14:30 +0300 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 20:14:30 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: font problems To: Simon McIntosh-Smith cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405311616.AA02370@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 31 May 1994, Simon McIntosh-Smith wrote: > where's everyone gone all of a sudden!? Traffic was so busy last week, > this is a real culture shock! To the summer holiday, I think. There's somewhat quiet season in near, I quess. > The problem is this. The X server does not belong to you, it is a > root process. Before this change the X server would > have belonged to whoever was logging in, but no longer. This > caused a number of problems, such as the console belonging to > root so error messages and the like were getting lost. Most of > these have been resolved. However, when trying to play Crossfire, > the familiar "trying to fix fontpath, failed, switching to pixmaps..." > message comes up, even when the font is correctly installed and > in the right place. This problem first manifested itself when > we were still using v0.91.0, and didn't go away when we switched > to 0.91.1. The fonts WERE working until the X server change > was made - for a time half of our machines had the pre-running > X servers and Crossfire failed to find the font on those machines, > while on those who's X servers started up as you logged in > Crossfire still worked with the fonts fine. > > I suspect it might be that Crossfire is trying to add a font to > the server when the Crossfire process lacks the permissions > to do this. Am I right? And is there a way around this problem? I have same like problem running on HP-UX with xdm. Problem was that there was no permission to read or execute directory by server, I don't remember clear. Anyway Ot can be fixed by setting permission and use the xset +fp /dir. Btw. I think in general there sould be used xset instead buildin heuristic. To keep the code simple and separate the functions where they belong to. -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Tue May 31 18:16:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk (thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk [131.251.42.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 18:16:23 +0200 Received: from cm.cf.ac.uk by thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <12747-0@thrall.cm.cf.ac.uk>; Tue, 31 May 1994 17:16:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 31 May 94 17:16:09 BST From: Simon McIntosh-Smith Message-Id: <9405311616.AA02370@diamond.cm.cf.ac.uk> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: font problems Status: RO Hi all, where's everyone gone all of a sudden!? Traffic was so busy last week, this is a real culture shock! Anyway, I've got a problem that really comes down to X and fonts. Here in Cardiff we've got a network of Sun SPARCstations with SunOS 4.1.3 and X11R4 and X11R5, plus Openwindows (which we have no problems with, by the way!). A few weeks ago our sys admin rigged up our network so that each machine always has an X server running on it - logging in now just involves the X server starting up each of the shells, tools etc that you require. Before, logging in first started up the X server, then started up all your other stuff. (for Suns this is the xnews process, and our sys admin achieved this change by using "xdm", and X display manager. I believe he used the version that came with X11R5) The problem is this. The X server does not belong to you, it is a root process. Before this change the X server would have belonged to whoever was logging in, but no longer. This caused a number of problems, such as the console belonging to root so error messages and the like were getting lost. Most of these have been resolved. However, when trying to play Crossfire, the familiar "trying to fix fontpath, failed, switching to pixmaps..." message comes up, even when the font is correctly installed and in the right place. This problem first manifested itself when we were still using v0.91.0, and didn't go away when we switched to 0.91.1. The fonts WERE working until the X server change was made - for a time half of our machines had the pre-running X servers and Crossfire failed to find the font on those machines, while on those who's X servers started up as you logged in Crossfire still worked with the fonts fine. I suspect it might be that Crossfire is trying to add a font to the server when the Crossfire process lacks the permissions to do this. Am I right? And is there a way around this problem? Thanks for your help, Sy From crossfire-request Tue May 31 17:00:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 17:00:08 +0200 Received: from fulton.seas.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa16672; 31 May 94 11:00 EDT Received: by fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (5.67a8/1.34) id AA83436; Tue, 31 May 1994 11:00:00 -0400 From: Thomas Castle Grein Message-Id: <199405311500.AA83436@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU> Subject: dumb questions To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 11:00:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 311 Status: RO Hello all, I have a couple of dumb questions... 1. How do you put stuff in the bags or sacks???? 2. if you have a increase Dexterity scroll, how do you prepare your weapon? Also, it seems to take a long time to advance levels, I guess that is just part of the game.... Thanks, Tom G tcg6y@virginia.edu From owner-crossfire Tue May 31 15:57:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 15:57:12 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <167001-4>; Tue, 31 May 1994 16:57:02 +0300 Subject: Adorment fix for rings/amulets From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 16:56:59 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 1452 Message-Id: <94May31.165702eet_dst.167001-4@utu.fi> Status: RO This diff fixes the (adorment) text that appear in rings and amulets when you are using FULL_RING_DESCRIPTION. Also fixes the (adorment) for amulets when you are not using FRD. *** item.OLD Mon May 30 23:50:28 1994 --- item.c Tue May 31 00:03:07 1994 *************** *** 212,219 **** --- 212,221 ---- #ifdef FULL_RING_DESCRIPTION if (QUERY_FLAG(op, FLAG_IDENTIFIED)) { int attr, val; + char *buf_add; strcat(buf, " "); + buf_add = buf + strlen(buf); for (attr=0; attr<6; attr++) { if ((val=get_attr_value(&(op->stats),attr))!=0) { sprintf(buf2,"(%s%+d)", short_stat_name[attr],val); *************** *** 272,277 **** --- 274,281 ---- DESCRIBE_PATH(buf, op->path_attuned, "Attuned"); DESCRIBE_PATH(buf, op->path_repelled, "Repelled"); DESCRIBE_PATH(buf, op->path_denied, "Denied"); + if(buf_add[0]=='\0') + strcat(buf,"(adorment)"); } #endif break; *************** *** 537,545 **** } #ifdef FULL_RING_DESCRIPTION } ! #endif ! if(retbuf[0]=='\0'&&op->type==RING) strcat(retbuf,"(adorment)"); } if(QUERY_FLAG(op,FLAG_MONSTER)) { if(QUERY_FLAG(op,FLAG_UNDEAD)) --- 541,550 ---- } #ifdef FULL_RING_DESCRIPTION } ! #else ! if(retbuf[0]=='\0'&& (op->type==RING || op->type==AMULET)) strcat(retbuf,"(adorment)"); + #endif } if(QUERY_FLAG(op,FLAG_MONSTER)) { if(QUERY_FLAG(op,FLAG_UNDEAD)) From crossfire-request Tue May 31 15:24:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from mailsun.aber.ac.uk (isode@mailsun.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 15:24:29 +0200 Received: from mailhost.aber.ac.uk (actually saturn.dcs.aber.ac.uk) by mailsun.aber.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 31 May 1994 14:24:24 +0100 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Skills! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 29 May 1994 16:11:12 +0200." Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 14:24:21 +0100 Message-ID: <2780.770390661@mailhost.aber.ac.uk> From: Benjamin Thomas Ketteridge Status: RO Bjorn Ludvigsen wrote (at length): > My idea goes something like this: hp and sp would improve > automatically when you increase in level, everything else wouldn't. > Not even saving throws. You would get a certain amount of skill > points, which you then could 'spend' in the guild. If you want to > practice your fighting skills, you go to the Fighter's Guild. Skills > have a range from 1 to 20, where 1 is Dabbler, and 20 is GrandMaster. > Here, you can learn skills like "General Weapon use", "Broadsword" and > "Small Shield". If your "Broadsword" skill is 3, and you'd like to > improve it, you pay a certain amount of skill points. It's easier to > learn skills at low levels than at high. Loadsa great stuff about skill mechanics deleted to save space. This sounds a lot like RoleMaster (TM) - I don't know if it's still around, but I used to play it a lot in the late 80's. I like these ideas, and they don't sound too hard to implement - most skills would be learned rather like spells with obvious modifiers for chance of success in learning, and cost of training. I especially like the idea of having to go somewhere specific to learn specialist skills. Hope this skills-based modification will get into crossfire-0.92? :-) Cheers, Ben. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | _|--|_ | Disclaimer: I've got a degree and maybe 1/2 of a PhD. | | (\/) +--------------------------------+--------------------------+ | vv | However, I still know nothing! | btk@aber.ac.uk | +--------------+--------------------------------+--------------------------+ From crossfire-request Tue May 31 11:53:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 11:53:25 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id MAA26739; Tue, 31 May 1994 12:53:23 +0300 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 12:53:22 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405310632.AA22652@fermat.dartmouth.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 31 May 1994, Michael Glenn wrote: > I for one would like that. I don't have NETPBM or PBMPLUS installed > on my machine, and not really sure where/how to get it there. Do the archie, and got ftp://public.x.org/contrib/netpbm-1mar1994.tar.gz. And general, if you have something to do with images, the netpbm is worth of installing. -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Tue May 31 11:49:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 11:49:55 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id MAA26578; Tue, 31 May 1994 12:49:51 +0300 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 12:49:50 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: your mail To: games.account@usit.uio.no cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405310602.IAA09258@klio> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 31 May 1994 games.account@usit.uio.no wrote: > Should grayscale Postscript be made the default? I think even fewer > will be able to compile the spoilers themselves, then, but... >From the practice of printing there ara very seldom color postscript printers available yet. So in general the grayscale should be preferrable, although some grayscale printers eat RGB, but many not. -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Tue May 31 23:18:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from staff.cs.su.OZ.AU (staff.cs.su.OZ.AU [129.78.8.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 23:18:36 +0200 Message-Id: <199405312118.21489.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Received: from basser.cs.su.oz.au by staff.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from ftww for crossfire@ifi.uio.no) with MHSnet; Tue, 31 May 1994 19:40:21 +1000 Subject: Re: Help with implementing Thiefly things? To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 19:40:15 +1000 (EST) From: "Fred the Wonder Worm" In-Reply-To: <199405290333.UAA20633@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 28, 94 08:33:27 pm X-Face: )\c`u_%V|7EQUDUt%5v'IJ?=@^Wf^<#,~CjzL`/2q0=-O6XW/Z8A2j.kgg:| 7|YZPSxy}rIuw8qD|/cQZ9^6kb:1XLleXhOl-U>(c~d`bC)%7FItZOUEw?=x%TBQ~NFJ,U|3wi[jzXd5-bMC Reply-To: ftww@cs.su.oz.au Content-Type: text Content-Length: 723 Status: RO > Or is it just that nobody really wants to move toward a system > where thieves have uses and importance? This isn't what worries me. I'm worried that I might have to spend a minute or two on every chest I find looking for traps so that I don't blow myself into oblivion when I open it. Yes, thieving should be useful. But please don't make it impossible to live if you don't have thieving capabilities. Cheers, Geoff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Bailey (Fred the Wonder Worm) | Programmer by trade -- ftww@cs.su.oz.au | Gameplayer by vocation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From crossfire-request Tue May 31 08:32:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 08:32:23 +0200 Received: from fermat.dartmouth.edu by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id CAA21327; Tue, 31 May 1994 02:32:14 -0400 Received: by fermat.dartmouth.edu (NX5.67d/NX3.0S) id AA22652; Tue, 31 May 94 02:32:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 31 May 94 02:32:26 -0400 From: Michael Glenn Message-Id: <9405310632.AA22652@fermat.dartmouth.edu> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Status: RO > Mark: I notice that 91.1 comes with spoilers for 90.5. > If you like, I can compile new spoilers prior to release > of new versions -- it should add only an hour to the > delay. I for one would like that. I don't have NETPBM or PBMPLUS installed on my machine, and not really sure where/how to get it there. Michael From crossfire-request Tue May 31 08:02:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.2.50]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 31 May 1994 08:02:34 +0200 From: games.account@usit.uio.no Received: from ulrik.uio.no by pat.uio.no with local-SMTP (PP) id <26044-0@pat.uio.no>; Tue, 31 May 1994 08:02:19 +0200 Received: by klio ; Tue, 31 May 1994 08:02:17 +0200 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 08:02:17 +0200 Message-Id: <199405310602.IAA09258@klio> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: CF: The automatic spoiler generation Someone mentioned here that he had problems compiling the spoiler file. (He also mentioned setting up LaTeX for this, so I am not surprised it didn't work out...) The reason given for wanting to do this was having a printer not capable of colour Postscript. I recompiled the NETPBM utilities the way I outline in doc/spoilers/README, and made the trivial changes to makeps so as to generate black and white Postscript (grayscale, really). The resulting spoiler.ps is 740kB large (93kB gzipped). The colour version distributed with 91.1 is 1976kB... Should grayscale Postscript be made the default? I think even fewer will be able to compile the spoilers themselves, then, but... (Many may not be aware that most of the spoiler file is updated automatically if you customize the spells, graphics and archetypes at your server.) Kjetil T. Mark: I notice that 91.1 comes with spoilers for 90.5. If you like, I can compile new spoilers prior to release of new versions -- it should add only an hour to the delay. From owner-crossfire Mon May 30 21:57:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 30 May 1994 21:57:06 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <166998-4>; Mon, 30 May 1994 22:57:00 +0300 Subject: Flying arrows and icestorm. From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 22:56:59 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 142 Message-Id: <94May30.225700eet_dst.166998-4@utu.fi> Status: RO When a monster has fired an arrow and then someone else casts icestorm there is message "Arrow has no map." The arrow is inside the icecube. From crossfire-request Mon May 30 06:05:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 30 May 1994 06:05:08 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id VAA16122 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Sun, 29 May 1994 21:05:02 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 21:05:02 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405300405.VAA16122@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: special-once-only pickmaps Status: RO In order to have tailored monsters in my maps, I've found that it is very convenient to make my own pickamps for use with crossedit, which contain these monsters. It makes it pretty easy to make multiple copies of these tailored creatures. It occurs to me that other people might have use for these 'special' pickmaps. For example, I've basically created a mucho-hacked wizard, looks like a regular wizard, but he's hostile, quick, has stats consistent with his purpose in the map, exp adjusted to his power, an appropriate spell set.... Also, I've created a pickmap with 4 new types of active walls which cast summoning spells, have hp, and can be torn down.... Anyone else been making specialized pickmaps? Anyone interested in mine? Pickmaps could be a way to extend the number of monsters greatly without extending the number of archetyes. Regards, PeterM From owner-crossfire Mon May 30 05:17:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 30 May 1994 05:17:50 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA20457 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 29 May 1994 20:17:43 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA20823 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Sun, 29 May 1994 20:17:43 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 20:17:43 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405300317.AA20823@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no, peterm@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: bug in crossedit Status: RO Yeah - I've encountered the same bug. While not a fix, a trick I picked up is to add an object to the second map and then remove it. Then it will be marked as being changed. --Mark From crossfire-request Mon May 30 04:15:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 30 May 1994 04:15:08 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA24016; Mon, 30 May 1994 12:14:08 +1000 Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 12:14:08 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405300214.AA24016@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Skills! Status: RO > I think that in the immediate future, our paths are together: > before making radical changes to the basic philosophy of the game, > we should build the prerequisites. Let's put in the locks to pick > the traps to disarm, the chests to loot, before we install any > system of skills. Let us first put the things in the game to > which the skills shall be applied, because: > > 1) it won't leave crossfire broken if > we proceed in small steps to our goal but one of us finds our > will to continue the project gone 2) everyone seems to agree > that adding Thiefly Things is Good, 3) it serves your skill > proposal, my skill proposal, AND those who think the current > system is just fine. > > Regards, > > PeterM > Peter is absolutely right. We must add the new thief features and play with them for a bit before modifying the character mechanics. It is very important that we balance the effects of all the skills whichever way we go. Rupert From owner-crossfire Mon May 30 01:53:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 30 May 1994 01:53:52 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id QAA04612 for crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no; Sun, 29 May 1994 16:53:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 16:53:46 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405292353.QAA04612@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Subject: bug in crossedit Status: RO What happens is this: I'm editing one map, edit stairs. I finish, move to another map, also open on my screen. I edit stairs there, too. FIRST map gets the modified flag, even thought it was the second map which was modified. So I cannot save the modified second map!!!! Frustrating. It's very convenient to have several windows up when linking things together. PeterM From crossfire-request Mon May 30 01:36:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 30 May 1994 01:36:02 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id QAA03763 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Sun, 29 May 1994 16:35:57 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 16:35:57 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405292335.QAA03763@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: How to set the difficulty of maps? Status: RO I'd like to set the difficulty of a map to something specific. The map is one level above a difficult fight, so the treasure i put in there should be higher level too, to match the fight. How do I do this? Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Sun May 29 23:12:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Sun, 29 May 1994 23:12:48 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id OAA27465; Sun, 29 May 1994 14:12:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199405292112.OAA27465@soda.berkeley.edu> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= cc: Tero Haatanen , crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Skills! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 29 May 1994 16:11:12 +0200." Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 14:12:42 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_L udvigsen?= writes: >My idea goes something like this: hp and sp would improve >automatically when you increase in level, everything else wouldn't. >Not even saving throws. You would get a certain amount of skill >points, which you then could 'spend' in the guild. If you want to Several things: 1) You get your 'points' by killing monsters, presumably, this is how you advance in levels. I disagree that killing monsters should enable you to become a better lock-picker. 2) I do not like the idea of 'guilds' to which you must go for advancement. This REQUIRES a certain map set, and removes much discretion of the server maintainers. I dislike the idea of enforcing any required objects in the maps for playing the game, because if someone wants to chuck all existing maps and start over, he MUST put in guilds. All of them. >Here, you can learn skills like "General Weapon use", "Broadsword" and >"Small Shield". If your "Broadsword" skill is 3, and you'd like to >improve it, you pay a certain amount of skill points. It's easier to >learn skills at low levels than at high. Why would anyone want to specialize in Broadsword instead of General? Then he'll be handicapped when he finds the Long Sword of Holy Avenging, which he would DEFINITELY want to use, or some weapon like the Axe of Biff, or the CSUA Bat. >at a high skill level (10-20) reduced sp cost (all the way down to >none) and increased efficiency. This is an extremely bad idea. Omega had a system in which: players gained mana each level, relearning spells reduced their expense. Powerful spells quickly become costless, and soon i had a character capable of killing ANYTHING by frowning at it. Playing crossfire would reduce to learning a broadly-applicable spell, and getting so good at it (zero cost, high effectiveness) that you could kill anything. >want to, you can be a Jack-of-all-Trades, but those who devote their >life and time to Karate will definetly whack your butt. (KAI! *whap*) Do I scent an installation of a system which would make it impossible for characters to succeed alone? >The races make Dwarves tough "warriors", and elves not that tough >"warriors". This is because elves are more slender, and dwarves are >tough by nature. But try jamming even one of those wiener fingers of a >dwarf into a lock. The race idea is a good one, readily implementable with stat bonuses. >skills. The race has nothing to do with it, their stats have. I agree that stats should behave the same way for different races. >I have given this much thought, and probably have missed lots of vital >things (I'm overly exited now), but I would *VERY MUCH* like to see/do >this if you think it's a good idea. I think it gives Crossfire the >roleplaying-look it needs. >- Bjorn (Sheesh. This was an answer to a "BTW".) Bjorn, you and I are aiming in sort of the same direction, but we have these fundamental disagreements: 1) I think that advancement in a skill area should come from in-the-field practice of that skill. You think that it should come from in-the-field gain of any type of experience, then paying for training. I happen to think it'll be more fun to be rewarded directly for practicing skills than to acquire experience-currency in whatever manner, and then spending it on skills. 2) You would like to hard-wire guilds into the game. I think that maps should be extremeley flexible, and that there should be very few things required in the maps for the server to work properly. 3) Your proposal is a lot more complicated than my 4-skill proposal. A multitude of new skills would have to be added. My proposal is a good deal of work, but clerics are in the game, mages are in the game, and fighting is in the game. Thieves are NOT in the game. I suggest that you and I are going in the same direction, however. My 4-skill proposal is sort of a stripped-down version of your proposal. mage-cleric-fighting-thief are like general skills in your description. Perhaps it might be easier to go to your system FROM mine, rather than trying to put yours in to start. I also would like to note that it would be bad if you installed your system, and made a bunch of skills such as lock-picking, only to find that there are NO LOCKS in the game to pick! I think that in the immediate future, our paths are together: before making radical changes to the basic philosophy of the game, we should build the prerequisites. Let's put in the locks to pick the traps to disarm, the chests to loot, before we install any system of skills. Let us first put the things in the game to which the skills shall be applied, because: 1) it won't leave crossfire broken if we proceed in small steps to our goal but one of us finds our will to continue the project gone 2) everyone seems to agree that adding Thiefly Things is Good, 3) it serves your skill proposal, my skill proposal, AND those who think the current system is just fine. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Sun May 29 14:29:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no (2116@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no [129.240.96.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 14:29:29 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from bjornlu@localhost) by holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 29 May 1994 14:29:27 +0200 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 14:29:26 +0200 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Charisma and charm-spells Message-ID: Status: RO >Perhaps having a high charisma would help against certain types of >spell effect, like fear or something? As the system is now, I believe fear is based on the cha of the person/monster casting it, so if you're way ugly and try to scare someone, they run their pants off. But if we make the resistance to fear dependent upon charisma, Willy the Warthog from Hell just cannot scare Benjamin the well-dressed Son of his Father who has a Great Deal of Money, but as soon as Benjamin utters the word "Boo", Willy loses his marbles and curls up in the opposite corner. I don't think this is the way we want it. >[...] why not add a few "charm" based spells, where a charmed character >or monster walks around randomly and slowly for a short period of time - >similar in a way to running away when affected by a fear spell. A high >char would give increased resistence to charm based spells... I believe there exists a friendly, or maybe even pet_move flag, how about setting this flag on the monsters that are affected by the spell? I really like the idea of charm-spells. Ray of Charm, Mass Charm. Players cannot be charmed, and resistence is a magic-save, modified by CHARISMA. Yes, a use for the stat. Obviously, Igor would fancy Cindy Crawford. Equally obvious is the fact that Cindy (probably, who's got luuv figured out anyway) wouldn't fancy Igor all that much. Meaning: If Cindy casts a charm spell on Igor, he nearly automatically succumbs to her spell. Igor, on the other hand, would need ten arms and a hundred fingers packed with cha+2-rings to have even a slight chance of succeeding. Comments, suggestions, other ideas? Original idea by Sy. - Bjorn From crossfire-request Sun May 29 14:10:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 14:10:43 +0200 Received: from crl3.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA12745 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 29 May 1994 05:08:52 -0700 Received: from localhost.crl.com.0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA by crl3.crl.com with SMTP id AA23434 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Sun, 29 May 1994 05:08:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199405291208.AA23434@crl3.crl.com> To: Peter Mardahl Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, mehlhaff@crl.com Subject: Re: crossedit troubles In-Reply-To: Message from Peter Mardahl of Sat, 28 May 1994 18:26:21 -0700 <199405290126.SAA15538@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 05:08:51 -0700 From: "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" Status: RO Peter Mardahl recently wrote: > >I'm having some troubles with crossedit. Here it is in a nutshell: >coke [32] crossedit >Warning: info: has no acces /usr1/games/crossfire/c91/lib/doc >Error: Widget view has zero width and/or height >mem=2584 pf=9 swap=0 5.040u 0.990s 0:13.80 28+0io The problem was that I forgot to install the Crossedit.ad file. I'm just mentioning this in case it hits someone else. Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com From crossfire-request Sun May 29 13:51:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no (2116@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no [129.240.96.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 13:51:56 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from bjornlu@localhost) by holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 29 May 1994 13:51:54 +0200 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 13:51:53 +0200 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Classes, race, experience. Message-ID: Status: RO >> Raising stats and maxing them out: I personally really don't want to >>add code that requires drinking more than one potion to raise a stat >>1 point. This would mean that keeping track of how many potions for that >>stat ahs been consumed, and would just seem to make things messier. > I strongly agree with Mark here. It would be a nightmare. Suggestion: a chance of (((maxstat-currentstat)*10)/100). The effect would be that everybody get average stats after having played for some time, but the really great stats would only be posessed by the really experienced players. I think it balances things out a bit. - Bjorn From crossfire-request Sun May 29 13:39:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no (2116@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no [129.240.96.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 13:39:51 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Georg_Ludvigsen?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: (from bjornlu@localhost) by holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 29 May 1994 13:39:49 +0200 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 13:39:47 +0200 To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: equipment switching delay Message-ID: Status: RO >>Equipment switching delay. If a character switches armour then >Definitely. This should have been done long ago.... Another thing is travel. Teleporters shouldn't have delays, everything else that transports the character should. Even doors. This would prevent people from zooming through all the stores in every city in no time. - Bjorn From crossfire-request Sun May 29 13:38:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 13:38:49 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id OAA26847; Sun, 29 May 1994 14:38:38 +0300 Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 14:38:38 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: crossedit troubles To: Peter Mardahl cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405290126.SAA15538@soda.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Sat, 28 May 1994, Peter Mardahl wrote: > I'm having some troubles with crossedit. Here it is in a nutshell: > coke [32] crossedit > Warning: info: has no acces /usr1/games/crossfire/c91/lib/doc This is just you have no that doc file, notthing to do with the following message. To get the Info put doc's to that place. > Error: Widget view has zero width and/or height To say on the fly, you have resources missing somewhat. I have not compiled crossedit with R6 yet, so I can't say does it depend from it, although it should be transparent between versions. Try put the reaource file Crossedit (whitout .ad) info some /dir and set the environment variable XUSERFILESEARCHPATH to the value /dir/%N and restart the crossedit. Notify that if you have environment variable XAPPRESDIR set it disables the XUSERFILESEARCHPATH, so disable it (the XAPPRESDIR is R3 stuff, and sould not be used anymore). And, if it runs, good, if not, ... try to compile it with R5 is possible, if it works then there are differencies between versions and I should look it out (when I have time). -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Sun May 29 05:33:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 05:33:32 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id UAA20633 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Sat, 28 May 1994 20:33:27 -0700 Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 20:33:27 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405290333.UAA20633@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Help with implementing Thiefly things? Status: RO It'd be silly to move to a 4 class system when the forth class doesn't even have any use yet. Who will help put Thieves into the server? My time is going to be limited, and I'm going to be off the net for two weeks soon. I cannot do it all by myself. Traps need to be implemented so that they can be put in chests, faces for traps have to be made.... The faces can be put to immediate use with the rune code, to make physical traps. I'll do the arches happily, if only someone will do the faces for me. Also, there are several coding projects. I will do everything myself eventually, but you'll all have to wait longer. :) Everyone should state what they're doing on the list..... Or is it just that nobody really wants to move toward a system where thieves have uses and importance? Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Sun May 29 03:26:27 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 03:26:26 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id SAA15538 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Sat, 28 May 1994 18:26:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 18:26:21 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405290126.SAA15538@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: crossedit troubles Status: RO I'm having some troubles with crossedit. Here it is in a nutshell: coke [32] crossedit Warning: info: has no acces /usr1/games/crossfire/c91/lib/doc Error: Widget view has zero width and/or height mem=2584 pf=9 swap=0 5.040u 0.990s 0:13.80 28+0io This version of crossedit came from c91.1, and was compiled under X11R6. The Display I was trying to use it on is running an X11R5 Xserver, i think. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Sun May 29 02:16:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from dartvax.dartmouth.edu (dartvax.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 29 May 1994 02:16:33 +0200 Received: from fermat.dartmouth.edu by dartvax.dartmouth.edu (8.6.8.1+DND/4.5HUB) id UAA05074; Sat, 28 May 1994 20:16:31 -0400 Received: by fermat.dartmouth.edu (NX5.67d/NX3.0S) id AA18033; Sat, 28 May 94 20:16:44 -0400 From: Larry Langley Message-Id: <9405290016.AA18033@fermat.dartmouth.edu> Subject: Missiles through walls To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 20:16:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 278 Status: RO I have recently joined this mailing list. While working with crossedit to create new maps, I encountered this obstacle: Are there variables that can be set in an object (for example a wall) that allow missiles/spells to cross the object but not creatures/characters? Larry From crossfire-request Sat May 28 14:34:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 28 May 1994 14:34:09 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id PAA11487; Sat, 28 May 1994 15:34:07 +0300 Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 15:34:07 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405280020.AA05782@bolero.rahul.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Fri, 27 May 1994, Mark Wedel wrote: > well, no one is forcing anyone to get always get the newest release. > Just as easily, if you find it tiring to get a release every 2 weeks, just > get every 4'th release or so. > > I really don't want to deal with patch files that fix various bugs. Because > then those also need to be on the ftp site, so that when someone gets a > player version, they can fix all the fatal bugs. > > I never thought that there was any real problem with a release every > two weeks. IF people would like less frequent releases, I can do that. The two weeks frequent is quite ideal. It might be even one week, but there may then be problem to gather the reasonable amount of patches to the release. The short releasing frequency is essential because crossfire is in development state, dome by net princible. With long releasing frequency there might be happen, say, other crossedit-0.7's :) -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Sat May 28 12:21:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from gyda.ifi.uio.no (root@gyda.ifi.uio.no [129.240.78.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 28 May 1994 12:21:04 +0200 Received: from nova.gmi.edu (nova.gmi.edu [192.138.137.2]) by gyda.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 28 May 1994 12:16:51 +0200 Received: from trofeo.gmi.edu by nova.gmi.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA08294; Sat, 28 May 94 06:18:30 EDT Date: Sat, 28 May 94 06:18:30 EDT From: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Message-Id: <9405281018.AA08294@nova.gmi.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO The Tabblands Volcano with the Wyverns in it has a staircase going down that says its closed. Someone mentioned that they did have maps that were more complete. Could you please mail me these maps. Thanks Ripclaw (Lev 14; Maintainer) From crossfire-request Sat May 28 12:38:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from gyda.ifi.uio.no (root@gyda.ifi.uio.no [129.240.78.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 28 May 1994 12:38:33 +0200 Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by gyda.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 28 May 1994 04:59:20 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA08169 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 27 May 1994 17:21:04 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA05782 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 27 May 1994 17:20:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 17:20:59 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405280020.AA05782@bolero.rahul.net> To: haavarl@ifi.uio.no, master@rahul.net Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO well, no one is forcing anyone to get always get the newest release. Just as easily, if you find it tiring to get a release every 2 weeks, just get every 4'th release or so. I really don't want to deal with patch files that fix various bugs. Because then those also need to be on the ftp site, so that when someone gets a player version, they can fix all the fatal bugs. I never thought that there was any real problem with a release every two weeks. IF people would like less frequent releases, I can do that. --Mark From crossfire-request Fri May 27 20:20:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from idiom.berkeley.ca.us (idiom.berkeley.ca.us [140.174.82.4]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 20:20:36 +0200 Received: from idiom.berkeley.ca.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.berkeley.ca.us (8.6.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA17344; Fri, 27 May 1994 11:20:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199405271820.LAA17344@idiom.berkeley.ca.us> To: "Rupert G. Goldie" cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 May 1994 16:10:12 +1000." <199405270610.AA02674@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 11:20:10 -0700 From: Jason Venner Status: RO Assumption: client/server is to allow lower bandwidth, lower frequency updates to the local client which will then take care of the high bandwidth drawing requirements. Has anyone looked into the lbx stuff coming with R6, or the compressed X software that was posted about 6 months ago (sxpc-1.1?) [lbx=low bandwidth x] From crossfire-request Fri May 27 14:22:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eros.britain.eu.net (eros.Britain.EU.net [192.91.199.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 14:21:56 +0200 Received: from cellnet.co.uk by eros.britain.eu.net with UUCP id ; Fri, 27 May 1994 13:18:26 +0100 Received: from marvin by osprey.cellnet.co.uk; Fri, 27 May 94 10:22:29 bst Received: by marvin.cellnet.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1a) id AA24055; Fri, 27 May 94 10:14:18 BST From: sbanks@cellnet.co.uk (Simon Banks) Message-Id: <9405270914.AA24055@marvin.cellnet.co.uk> Subject: racial hatred To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 10:14:17 +0100 (BST) Organisation: Telecom Securicor Cellular Radio Ltd. (Cellnet) X-Phone: +44-753-553666 X-Fax: +44-753-552430 X-Mobile: +44-850-980694 X-Dept: IS X-Title: TTL X-Spook: bomb guns london semtex queen major major bomb gun ammo army IRA X-Daft: Volume in drive C: has no label. X-Grovel: Mines a Pint X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1144 Status: RO How about a racial table for monsters/players so that monsters will attack other monsters on the basis that they don't like them. This could work to the other extereme so that a player wraith did'nt get attacked by npc wraiths. Of course someway of overriding this would be needed... -- Si++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Where ignorance is bliss, wisdom is folly | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Simon Banks Address: Cellnet | | Tel: +44-753-553666 Ext 282 Grove Court | | Fax: +44-753-552430 Hatfield Road | | Mobile: +44-850-980694 Slough | | Home: NaN SL1 1QU | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Thats All Folks!!. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- EOT From crossfire-request Fri May 27 09:45:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 09:45:38 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id AAA07564; Fri, 27 May 1994 00:44:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199405270744.AAA07564@soda.berkeley.edu> To: "Rupert G. Goldie" cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: movemement types In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 May 1994 17:13:03 +1000." <199405270713.AA03146@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 00:44:37 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405270713.AA03146@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au>, "Rupert G. Goldie" wr ites: >> How about a movement type for spellcasters? >> 'hang back and blast the enemy with spells, do not >> close for combat'? >> >> regards, >> >> PeterM >> > >Good idea. Won't DISTATT cover this though ? > > >Rupert Actually, Yeah!!!! Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Fri May 27 09:14:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 09:13:55 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA03146; Fri, 27 May 1994 17:13:03 +1000 Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 17:13:03 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405270713.AA03146@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: movemement types Status: RO > How about a movement type for spellcasters? > 'hang back and blast the enemy with spells, do not > close for combat'? > > regards, > > PeterM > Good idea. Won't DISTATT cover this though ? Rupert From crossfire-request Fri May 27 08:56:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 08:56:08 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id XAA03791 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Thu, 26 May 1994 23:55:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 23:55:44 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405270655.XAA03791@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: movemement types Status: RO How about a movement type for spellcasters? 'hang back and blast the enemy with spells, do not close for combat'? regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Fri May 27 09:37:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (eden-valley.aaii.oz.AU [192.35.59.254]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 09:37:41 +0200 Received: by eden-valley.aaii.oz.au (5.65c/SMI-4.0/AAII) id AA02674; Fri, 27 May 1994 16:10:12 +1000 Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 16:10:12 +1000 From: "Rupert G. Goldie" Message-Id: <199405270610.AA02674@eden-valley.aaii.oz.au> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis Status: RO Karim wrote: > > From: Sven Neuhaus > > > > Beside that. Somone mentioned, that he would (like to) play with 30 players in one > > system. > > A few remarks to that case.(IMHO) > > What a machine are you using for crossfire? > > My 3/60 has problems, when running with xpm and only me in crossfire. > > What does your sysadmin say, if you slow down a big machine with crossfire and 30 > > players on it? > > I was talking about once it is client server. I think that 20 - 30 players > is VERY reasonable, look at netrek for a fairly good rough idea of > what client server can do. > Even when we have client/server there will be plenty of people who won't be able to play across the Internet - people on slow links and long latency links (I often see ping times of several seconds from here to the US !!). Let's also not forget that we do already have some distribution of CPU load. The X server on each machine is doing the actual rendering for each player, so going to client/server isn't necessarily going to give us some enormous magical increase in speed. Rupert From crossfire-request Fri May 27 08:48:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from nova.gmi.edu (nova.gmi.edu [192.138.137.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 08:48:30 +0200 Received: from trofeo.gmi.edu by nova.gmi.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA29767; Fri, 27 May 94 02:10:03 EDT Date: Fri, 27 May 94 02:10:03 EDT From: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Message-Id: <9405270610.AA29767@nova.gmi.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO I have done a trial hack to get myself familiar with the code. The modification is in the attack.c file. I was unhappy with the fact that when you are fighting an opponent you have no clue as to their visual appearance which should be apparent. The code does this now. It gives a particular message that appropriately reflects the state of your opponent after a hit. The reason I put it here and not have to make the player specifically look at his opponent was due to the fact that in crossfire you have to use keystrokes to fight like an arcade game. I would appreciate any feedback and would be happy to provide the code on request. I am not posting it as some might object to this. Thanks Ripclaw (Lev 14; Maintainer); From crossfire-request Fri May 27 05:21:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 05:21:39 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id UAA18167; Thu, 26 May 1994 20:21:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 20:21:34 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405270321.UAA18167@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Magara Cc: master@rahul.net Status: RO I'm a bit unhappy with SOME of the magara maps. SOME of them. The ones I object to: Gwendale/Magara/Div/Family_house This is that prison map. 1) It has LOTS of treasure you don't have to fight for! 2) The monsters are contained in well-defined places, and NOT guarding the treasure. 3) It's an experience bonananza. You get a wand of fireball and blast a couple of Chinese Dragons. Blam, you're 7th level. And there's no risk, since you can just snipe around a corner at them. Gwendale/Magara/Magara_Plaza/Lab1 1) Lots of monsters all in a single line. You fight one at a time. An experience bonanza.... You want to advance quickly? come here. You won't ever have to fight more than two monsters at once. Gwendale/Magara/Magara_Plaza/Lab2 1) Same as Lab1, except the monsters are tougher. Skulls aren't terribly dangerous if they're all in a line! And neither are beholders. Talk about easy, unearned experience? Come here! (I ought to know, i abused these places many times.) Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Fri May 27 04:41:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 04:41:27 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA05577; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:41:12 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405270241.TAA05577@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: your mail To: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405261110.AA20027@nova.gmi.edu> from "akshay srinivasan" at May 26, 94 07:10:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1087 Status: RO > > There is a shop to the South West of the Tabblands that has been giving players > trouble. It says to drop 200 gold and then 4000 gold after which supposedly you > will be let in. However this does not work and the players cant get into the store. Another problem is with the volcano south of the same. Players cleared > out the area then came upon a bunch of gates with no apparent purpose (means of > lowering). They then came upon a stairwell going down that was closed. This > really disappointed them. I hope that the maps in use dont have too many such > apparently semi-finished areas. On the other hand if there is a way in please > give some more clues. > go tabbland! The quest is working fine. when you drop money something does happen, you just have to find out what! The volcano is finished here (the maps could be newer than the last distribution, I don't really know.) Karim > By the way is there a more detailed guide to designing maps. If so could you > tell me where I can get my hands on it. > > Many thanks. > Ripclaw > (Lev. 14; Maintainer) > From crossfire-request Fri May 27 04:39:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 04:39:27 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA05545; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:38:27 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405270238.TAA05545@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) To: peterm@soda.berkeley.edu (Peter Mardahl) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Cc: smurf@soda.berkeley.edu, crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405262004.NAA03551@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Peter Mardahl" at May 26, 94 01:04:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1672 Status: RO > > In message <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu>, Scott MacFiggen writes: > >In message <199405260938.AA11203@bolero.rahul.net>you write: > >>A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up some, so it is easier to understand. > >>And in fact, I think a lot of the code right now is in pretty good shape. > > > > > >>Also, any re-write teams needs to work pretty closely together. Several > >>people working separately probably won't generate anything better than what > >>we have right now. > > > > Well, there are quite a few people over here at Berkeley... > > Lots of people here at Berkeley, yes. We are: smurf, mehlhaff, peterm, > kenji, raytrace, john, retnuh, mlee, all at soda. I'm not sure how many > are actually committed to doing any real work with crossfire, however, > and our programming abilities vary. Personally, I'd rather see energy > devoted to a server-client split rather than a cleaning. From the silence > about this split on the list, i can only assume it's being completely > neglected. > > > Regards, > > PeterM > I say we don't do any sort of rewrite unless it is part of doing the client/server rewrite. I think that a rewrite that is not client/server is a complete waste of time. I would love to start coding on the client/server, everyone here at chico (prolly 5-6 good coders + 10 other not-so-good, and playtesters) is on summer vacation and is WAITING to do the client/server. Isn't somebody doing a client/server proposal? Or was tvangod lying to me? How many of the berkeley guys can code this summer? peter? eric? (john? heh.) How about the rest of the world (those of you outside northern california)? Karim From crossfire-request Fri May 27 04:35:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 04:35:00 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id TAA10934 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:34:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:34:56 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405270234.TAA10934@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: active walls update Status: RO Everyone remember how i promised a long time ago to generalize active walls? (bullet-walls, lightning-walls, etc.) Well, I finally did. You can put any spell in the wall you like. In particular, cone spells.... Some spells don't operate very well inside walls for some reason, i don't really understand why. You'll need to experiment to see if you can get the one you want in the wall. I've mailed the patch to Mark, and I've also written up a document describing what the fields are in the active walls. Mailed THAT to Mark too. If you want to stick the patch into your server yourself, it's available for public ftp at soda.berkeley.edu pub/crossfire/active_walls.tar Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Fri May 27 04:21:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 04:21:17 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA05376; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:20:35 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405270220.TAA05376@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Abuse of Gravestones To: judkinsj@db.erau.edu (Jeff Judkins) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: master@rahul.net, Tero.Haatanen@lut.fi, crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Judkins" at May 26, 94 06:58:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2200 Status: RO > > On Wed, 25 May 1994, Mark Wedel wrote: > > > So how do you detect cases where casting a spell (and killing another > > player) is an accident, compared to doing it on purpose? The players > > can usually tell, but to actually program in code to detect becomes a bit > > more difficult. > > > > The best solution is just to state that player killing other players will > > not be tolerated. > > > > --Mark > > But part of the fun of x-fire is that you and a friend can go around > beating the hell out of each other. Killing people is not tolerated in > society but it still happens. I think just saying you can't do that takes > some of the fun out. How about the idea that you can not harm a character > X levels below you? That way, if players decide to go after each other, > they'll be more evenly matched. > > +============================+==============================+ > | This message courtesy of: | You bore me to death | > | | So shut up for God's sake | > | Jeff Judkins | Stop reading me the riot act | > | judkinsj@erau.db.erau.edu | While my brains still intact | > +============================+==============================+ > Kill'em all and then just let God sort out the mess. > > > > A couple of us at chico thought alot about doing a xfire player killing game. We actually coded some on it, it is really almost done. We basically wanted to do a team thing, 2-6 teams, all running around killing each other. Each game has a certain goal (capture the flag, kill the other team, etc). To get something like this to work, all that you really need to do is make some cool player killing maps, alter the party system (done), alter character generation code (done, to start characters all at a playable level), and alter a few other little things like put in a kill score. This would really just be a toy until a working client/server xfire is up, since only 6-8 people can play now, but we will get it up and running soon I think. Player killing is just too much fun. So when do we actually start working on client/server? Karim From crossfire-request Fri May 27 04:20:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.5.10]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 04:20:45 +0200 Received: (from karim@localhost) by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA05341; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:15:24 -0700 From: KARIM SANJABI Message-Id: <199405270215.TAA05341@corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: elsbernd@dfki.uni-kl.de (Klaus Elsbernd) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: neuhau00@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de, crossfire@ifi.uio.no, elsbernd@dfki.uni-kl.de In-Reply-To: <199405260905.LAA17967@isg-200> from "Klaus Elsbernd" at May 26, 94 11:05:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1288 Status: RO > > From: Sven Neuhaus > > Beside that. Somone mentioned, that he would (like to) play with 30 players in one > system. > A few remarks to that case.(IMHO) > What a machine are you using for crossfire? > My 3/60 has problems, when running with xpm and only me in crossfire. > What does your sysadmin say, if you slow down a big machine with crossfire and 30 > players on it? I was talking about once it is client server. I think that 20 - 30 players is VERY reasonable, look at netrek for a fairly good rough idea of what client server can do. > Where do you get 30 players at the same time in the same crossfire world. > We are a small site with more >80 Sparcs, >150 user and connections to the > university. We don't have such that many players. > (It is an other case, if you are on a university site, but that's > not the usual case.) > You would need many more maps, because all will be cleared out (quests solved) before > you would get into it. (30 players playing together in a dungeon wich is only yeah, or you would need some other "goals" or other things to do, like user created guilds, longer more involved quests, more interaction between players. (lot's o stuff deleted) > Any opinions? > > MfG > Klaus > Karim From crossfire-request Fri May 27 03:03:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 03:03:38 +0200 Received: from sonja.math.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa01866; 26 May 94 21:03 EDT Received: by sonja.math.Virginia.EDU (NX5.67c/NX3.0S) id AA02186; Thu, 26 May 94 21:03:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 May 94 21:03:35 -0400 From: "Kevin H. Weiss" Message-Id: <9405270103.AA02186@sonja.math.Virginia.EDU> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: CF: My Server Upgraded to v0.91.1 Status: RO That's sonja.math.Virginia.EDU Open 24hrs/day, 7 days/week. Please be considerate, and check your connection via ping (that's probably /etc/ping or /usr/etc/ping on your machine). If you have a slow connection or are getting a lot of packet loss, please find a closer server or play during off-peak hours and PLEASE don't join the server if there are others already playing (check using `crossclient -cmd who`). However, if your connection is good, PLEASE play on my server! It has been getting busier all the time, so join in the fun!!! --==++==-- --==++==-- --==++==-- --==++==-- --==++==-- Thanks, kevin http://sonja.math.virginia.edu/~khw2x/ From crossfire-request Fri May 27 02:23:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.4.42]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 02:23:08 +0200 Received: from marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de by waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP (Sendmail 8.6.9/UniDo 2.0.18) id CAA02303; Fri, 27 May 1994 02:23:06 +0200 From: Sven Neuhaus Message-Id: <9405270023.AA03945@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Received: by marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id AA03945; Fri, 27 May 94 02:23:04 +0200 Subject: New experimental crossfire server in Germany To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 02:23:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1142 Status: RO Hi folks, I started a new crossfire server at future.chemietechnik.uni-dortmund.de 13326 (IP= 129.217.176.31) It's still experimental and currently just a plain vanilla 0.91.0 compile. The problem is, our university has a X firewall. If you want to play from outside of *.uni-dortmund.de, you'll need some trickery (i.e. use xroute). Here's a quick HOWTO: a) xhost + future on your machine b) setenv DISPLAY :0 (somehow, they do not get resolved, so use the number for now) c) run xroute on your machine: xroute -d 1 myhost:0 d) telnet to future 13326 e) type "add myhost:1" (might have to use IP number) f) your window should pop up then and you can quit the telnet with "quit" That's it for now. Please don't use XPM or pixmap if you play, since it will slow things down a lot if you're not local. Cheers, -Sven P.S.: Send server related email to sn@future.chemietechnik.uni-dortmund.de -- Sven Neuhaus, CS student at University of Dortmund, Germany/\Internet for Netrek, Doom & Empire addict.PGP key available upon request@@ the masses! KGB CIA Assassination Palestine explosive terrorist Uzi NSA\/info@ping.de From owner-crossfire Fri May 27 01:48:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 01:48:08 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <166885-4>; Fri, 27 May 1994 02:47:53 +0300 Subject: 'pickup 4' and chests From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 02:47:39 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 408 Message-Id: <94May27.024753eet_dst.166885-4@utu.fi> Status: RO Crossfire 0.91.1. When I have pickup 4 (pickup all) I sometimes don't get all items. When you try to get a chest it usually leaves one item on the floor. Also all the chests picked up this way are empty. So I think It somehow picks the chest and moves the item inside to the floor. Other pickup problem is that very often you get 'flying arrows/bolts' into your inventory with 'pickup 10' (value pickup). From crossfire-request Fri May 27 00:58:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 00:58:18 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id PAA20789 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 15:58:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199405262258.PAA20789@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 May 1994 15:21:01 PDT." <199405262221.AA06299@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 15:58:01 -0700 From: Scott MacFiggen Status: RO In message <199405262221.AA06299@bolero.rahul.net>you write: > Also, some functions are pretty bad. But cleaning up those functions >is hardly a major-rewrite. > > --Mark Thats nice, but I never said anything about a major rewrite, just general cleaning and optimization. The rewrite part came out of Eric Mehlhaffs idea of seperating the game elements. ############################################################################## # Scott MacFiggen -- 88 VTR250 -- EUVE Systems Administrator -- CEA # # # # smurf@soda.berkeley.edu CSUA Vice-President scottmm@cea.berkeley.edu # ############################################################################## From crossfire-request Fri May 27 00:21:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 00:21:10 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09996 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 26 May 1994 15:21:03 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA06299 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 26 May 1994 15:21:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 15:21:01 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405262221.AA06299@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, smurf@soda.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) Status: RO Well, according the 'malloc command on my version of crossfire, the object structure is 240 bytes, player structure 25442 (most of which is probably storing the text of the information window), and hte map is 334. Someone said recently that the object structure contained a bunch of un-needed elements. After looking it over, I found none. This is because the object structure applies to all objects (monsters, items, walls, etc). Some savings could probably be made by having different structures for different objects, or static/dynamic portions. But just a quick looks shows 14 pointers that will be required in any structure. Also, at 240 bytes per object, I don't really consider it a problem (8000 objects will fit within 2 megs of memory, which should not be a problem for any machine). The player object can probably be cleaned up a lot. However, in a client/server situation, major changes will need to be made to it. Also, some functions are pretty bad. But cleaning up those functions is hardly a major-rewrite. --Mark From crossfire-request Fri May 27 00:01:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 27 May 1994 00:01:31 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09222 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 26 May 1994 15:00:10 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA04146 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 26 May 1994 15:00:06 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 15:00:06 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405262200.AA04146@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, dgreene@gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV Subject: Re: Help with -m4 switch Status: RO I have no idea why it is crashing when it tries to load up. The doc directory has a lot of files about various things. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 26 23:42:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from po6.andrew.cmu.edu (PO6.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.106]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 23:42:25 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po6.andrew.cmu.edu (8.6.7/8.6.6) id RAA25786 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Thu, 26 May 1994 17:42:18 -0400 Received: via switchmail; Thu, 26 May 1994 17:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freehold.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 26 May 1994 17:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freehold.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 26 May 1994 17:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BatMail.robin.v2.14.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.freehold.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c.411 via MS.5.6.freehold.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c_411; Thu, 26 May 1994 17:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 17:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Anderson" To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis In-Reply-To: <9405262048.AA06994@coronado> References: <9405261730.AA06472@coronado> <9405262048.AA06994@coronado> Status: RO scott@santafe.edu writes: > well, upwards of 20 second lag at times... sometimes it can get as > fast as 1.1 moves a second. > > Can't the protocol be re-worked so it's not flooding the net with udp > packets? Part of the point is that there isn't any protocol. It's doing X stuff directly over the net. This makes things very slow for two reasons. 1. Stuff that could be handled entirely locally aren't. (Inventory rotating for example) 2. The X stuff wasn't ever optimized for efficiency. (For example scrolling is done by just redrawing everything). -Eric ********************************************************* "It seemed like a good idea at the time" -The Mad Hatter "Yes, you're very smart. Shut up." -In "The Princess Bride" ********************************************************* From crossfire-request Thu May 26 23:05:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 23:05:35 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id OAA10833 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 14:05:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199405262105.OAA10833@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 14:05:29 -0700 From: Scott MacFiggen Status: RO This was sent to me directly, the author asked me to forward it. ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: Tero.Haatanen@lut.fi Delivery-Date: Thu, 26 May 94 11:04:07 -0700 From: Tero Haatanen Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) To: smurf@soda.berkeley.edu (Scott MacFiggen) Date: Thu, 26 May 94 21:03:44 EET DST In-Reply-To: <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu>; from "Scott MacFiggen" at May 26, 94 9:57 am > Alot of the code is just fine, but some areas are pretty > bad. Yes, I have to agree. I hope that someone could summarize what they think as a those areas that needs most cleaning. And hopefully can also present some solutions to clean them. I think when/if client/server comes, most server code relating to X stuff is cleaned anyway. > > So if a re-write is done, what will really be changed? The topic was > >initially brought up making it so that the class specific stuff could > >be easily separated. The thing is, can that be done in a reasonable Separating class related things can be very hard problem to solve even if not thinking amount of coding needed. If thinking the current system where there aren't any main differences between classes and stronger class system where barbarian can't use some wizards item, then supporting both features would require changes everywhere including archetypes and maps. I don't mean it isn't possible but can cause many problems and probably requires the different archetypes and maps to each different class system. It seems already hard make all #ifdef's working correctly. I don't have any objection if someone is really going to do it but I don't believe that re-write will happen :(. Also making decision what is the game mechanism and what are the rest of game isn't totally clear division either. > >So I guess the first questions should be: What do we hope to gain by > >a major re-write, and is this feasible under any situation? > > One of my major beefs with crossfire code is the wasted > space. It seems whenever someone adds a new feature, they add a new > entry to the object structure, stuff like that. Hey, I removed two variables from the object structure when making the container code! But seriously some features needs new entries to object structure but I would hope that those would be consistently used. One example that comes to is can_apply, which is char and boolean flags can_use_*. Those have similar meaning, but still handled totally differently. One thing what I want to see is more generic c-code part, so that most thing can be defined archetypes and maps. I mean use the info from object and don't hardcode it in the source. BTW. Has someone thought skill system where players could learn different skills (eg. fighting, casting, lock picking, searching, using a bow) using them and than class could determine how hard learning is. So it would be nearly impossible for barbarian to learn even easy spells but becoming good fighter would be easy. Of course there could be races like humans, elfs, dwarves and these would have own modifiers to each skill. -Tero ------- End of Forwarded Message From crossfire-request Thu May 26 23:03:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 23:03:01 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id OAA10518 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 14:02:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199405262102.OAA10518@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 May 1994 13:04:36 PDT." <199405262004.NAA03551@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 14:02:56 -0700 From: Scott MacFiggen Status: RO In message <199405262004.NAA03551@soda.berkeley.edu>you write: >In message <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu>, Scott MacFiggen writes: >>In message <199405260938.AA11203@bolero.rahul.net>you write: >>>A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up some, so it is easier to understand. >>>And in fact, I think a lot of the code right now is in pretty good shape. >> > >> One of my major beefs with crossfire code is the wasted >>space. It seems whenever someone adds a new feature, they add a new >>entry to the object structure, stuff like that. > > Hmm. I've found myself forced several times to add stuff to the object >structure for new features. What do you propose instead, Scott? I'd >like to have a better idea. I think crossfire is far too resource- >intensive, and this may make system administrators more opposed to >having servers running in their machines. No,no,no,no,no I didn't mean it wasn't ok to add to the object structure, I meant that sometimes additions to the object structure are not needed or should go someplace else, or could be combined with other structure member to optimize, like using bit vectors for boolens or something. Considering how many objects exist in crossfire cleaning the object structure could reduce memory usage greatly. (anyone happen to know how many objects are held in memory at a time, on average). I was just using the object structure as an example though. ############################################################################## # Scott MacFiggen -- 88 VTR250 -- EUVE Systems Administrator -- CEA # # # # smurf@soda.berkeley.edu CSUA Vice-President scottmm@cea.berkeley.edu # ############################################################################## From crossfire-request Thu May 26 23:00:18 1994 Return-Path: <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Received: from spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk (root@spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.8.9]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 23:00:15 +0200 Received: from tw400.eng.cam.ac.uk (93ekt@tw400.eng.cam.ac.uk [129.169.17.100]) by spanner.eng.cam.ac.uk; Thu, 26 May 1994 22:00:11 +0100 From: "E.K. Tan" <93ekt@eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <2979.199405262100@tw400.eng.cam.ac.uk> Subject: bugs To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 22:00:09 BST X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.13f] Status: RO Hi there, I had just gotten a version of xfire-0.91.1 . Crossfire refused to link due to unsatisfied symbol error (data).The machine I am using is hpux series700. I hope that someone can tell me what I can do. Thanks ! Yingjie From crossfire-request Thu May 26 22:51:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 22:51:45 +0200 Received: (peterm@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id NAA09102 for crossfire@ifi.uio.no; Thu, 26 May 1994 13:51:41 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 13:51:41 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Message-Id: <199405262051.NAA09102@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: spells.c cleaning Status: RO There are several things that could be done to improve spells.c 1) Some of the functions are downright redundant. They're basically front-ends to certain spells that are used exactly once wlsewhere in the code. An example of this is 'fire_a_ball', which is used by firechests only. There's no reason that this couldn't be replaced by a call to 'cast_spell', and there are other similar little unneeded functions in the spell code. There are even some functionsn which are not used whatsoever, anywhere. 2) There are certain tasks which some functions all have their own copy of. For example, one task i recall is the act of 'finding a friendly player, or if none are around, find yourself' for healing, stat, and protection spells. I think all three have their own copy of this, I'm not sure how bad it is. But the code might benefit from a little abstraction of commonly-used stuff into their own functions. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 26 22:42:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from sfi.santafe.edu (sfi.santafe.edu [192.12.12.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 22:42:39 +0200 From: scott@santafe.edu Received: from coronado (coronado.santafe.edu) by sfi.santafe.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03185; Thu, 26 May 94 14:49:15 MDT Received: by coronado (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06994; Thu, 26 May 94 14:48:04 MDT Date: Thu, 26 May 94 14:48:04 MDT Message-Id: <9405262048.AA06994@coronado> To: Jeff Judkins Cc: scott@santafe.edu, Petri Heinil{ , Klaus Elsbernd , Sven Neuhaus , crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis In-Reply-To: Your message at 13:36:55 on Thu, 26 May 1994 References: <9405261730.AA06472@coronado> Status: RO >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Judkins writes: Jeff> On Thu, 26 May 1994 scott@santafe.edu wrote: >> >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Judkins writes: >> I find that crossfire over the net is just inacceptible. period. >> Scott Jeff> Don't have much experiance playing over the net, but I'm willing Jeff> to bet that's true. Net lag can kill you very fast in Jeff> crossfire. well, upwards of 20 second lag at times... sometimes it can get as fast as 1.1 moves a second. Can't the protocol be re-worked so it's not flooding the net with udp packets? Scott From crossfire-request Thu May 26 22:04:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 22:04:55 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id NAA03551; Thu, 26 May 1994 13:04:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199405262004.NAA03551@soda.berkeley.edu> To: Scott MacFiggen cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 May 1994 09:57:23 PDT." <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 13:04:36 -0700 From: Peter Mardahl Status: RO In message <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu>, Scott MacFiggen writes: >In message <199405260938.AA11203@bolero.rahul.net>you write: >>A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up some, so it is easier to understand. >>And in fact, I think a lot of the code right now is in pretty good shape. > > One of my major beefs with crossfire code is the wasted >space. It seems whenever someone adds a new feature, they add a new >entry to the object structure, stuff like that. Hmm. I've found myself forced several times to add stuff to the object structure for new features. What do you propose instead, Scott? I'd like to have a better idea. I think crossfire is far too resource- intensive, and this may make system administrators more opposed to having servers running in their machines. > >>Also, any re-write teams needs to work pretty closely together. Several >>people working separately probably won't generate anything better than what >>we have right now. > > Well, there are quite a few people over here at Berkeley... Lots of people here at Berkeley, yes. We are: smurf, mehlhaff, peterm, kenji, raytrace, john, retnuh, mlee, all at soda. I'm not sure how many are actually committed to doing any real work with crossfire, however, and our programming abilities vary. Personally, I'd rather see energy devoted to a server-client split rather than a cleaning. From the silence about this split on the list, i can only assume it's being completely neglected. Regards, PeterM From crossfire-request Thu May 26 20:39:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 20:39:22 +0200 Received: (philb@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) id LAA24690; Thu, 26 May 1994 11:39:04 -0700 From: Philip Brown Message-Id: <199405261839.LAA24690@soda.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: neuhau00@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Sven Neuhaus) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: mehlhaff@crl.com, crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405260601.AA25495@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> from "Sven Neuhaus" at May 26, 94 08:01:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL5] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 264 Status: RO >>>>[From Sven Neuhaus] I don't agree with this. I expect Crossfire to become a true client/server game sooner or later. Then, there won't be that much of CPU per player. But how MUCH later do you think that is going to be? 1 year? 2 years? never? From crossfire-request Thu May 26 20:29:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 20:29:42 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id LAA23491 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 11:29:37 -0700 Resent-Message-Id: <199405261829.LAA23491@soda.berkeley.edu> Delivery-Date: Thu, 26 May 94 11:04:07 -0700 Received: from aino.it.lut.fi (aino.it.lut.fi [157.24.11.71]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with ESMTP id LAA21013 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 11:03:54 -0700 Received: from localhost (haatanen@localhost) by aino.it.lut.fi (8.6.5/8.6.5/1.12.kim) id VAA03474; Thu, 26 May 1994 21:03:45 +0300 (for smurf@soda.berkeley.edu) From: Tero Haatanen Message-Id: <199405261803.VAA03474@aino.it.lut.fi> Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) To: smurf@soda.berkeley.edu (Scott MacFiggen) Date: Thu, 26 May 94 21:03:44 EET DST In-Reply-To: <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu>; from "Scott MacFiggen" at May 26, 94 9:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Resent-To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 11:29:35 -0700 Resent-From: Scott MacFiggen Status: RO > Alot of the code is just fine, but some areas are pretty > bad. Yes, I have to agree. I hope that someone could summarize what they think as a those areas that needs most cleaning. And hopefully can also present some solutions to clean them. I think when/if client/server comes, most server code relating to X stuff is cleaned anyway. > > So if a re-write is done, what will really be changed? The topic was > >initially brought up making it so that the class specific stuff could > >be easily separated. The thing is, can that be done in a reasonable Separating class related things can be very hard problem to solve even if not thinking amount of coding needed. If thinking the current system where there aren't any main differences between classes and stronger class system where barbarian can't use some wizards item, then supporting both features would require changes everywhere including archetypes and maps. I don't mean it isn't possible but can cause many problems and probably requires the different archetypes and maps to each different class system. It seems already hard make all #ifdef's working correctly. I don't have any objection if someone is really going to do it but I don't believe that re-write will happen :(. Also making decision what is the game mechanism and what are the rest of game isn't totally clear division either. > >So I guess the first questions should be: What do we hope to gain by > >a major re-write, and is this feasible under any situation? > > One of my major beefs with crossfire code is the wasted > space. It seems whenever someone adds a new feature, they add a new > entry to the object structure, stuff like that. Hey, I removed two variables from the object structure when making the container code! But seriously some features needs new entries to object structure but I would hope that those would be consistently used. One example that comes to is can_apply, which is char and boolean flags can_use_*. Those have similar meaning, but still handled totally differently. One thing what I want to see is more generic c-code part, so that most thing can be defined archetypes and maps. I mean use the info from object and don't hardcode it in the source. BTW. Has someone thought skill system where players could learn different skills (eg. fighting, casting, lock picking, searching, using a bow) using them and than class could determine how hard learning is. So it would be nearly impossible for barbarian to learn even easy spells but becoming good fighter would be easy. Of course there could be races like humans, elfs, dwarves and these would have own modifiers to each skill. -Tero From owner-crossfire Thu May 26 19:41:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (root@castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:41:16 +0200 Received: by utu.fi id <166883-2>; Thu, 26 May 1994 20:41:03 +0300 Subject: Default map crashes server. From: Tero Jyri Michael Pelander To: crossfire-bugs@ifi.uio.no Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 20:40:59 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 175 Message-Id: <94May26.204103eet_dst.166883-2@utu.fi> Status: RO When ever I try to enter the map /cd/cd.tower1.(somenumber) crossfire dies with following errors: Trying to remove removed object. Object (null) y 15 end SIGSEGV received. From crossfire-request Thu May 26 19:37:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV (gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.gov [144.47.127.21]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:37:27 +0200 Received: by gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV (5.4R2.01/5.40/1.0) id AA23020; Thu, 26 May 1994 12:39:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 12:39:55 -0500 From: dgreene@gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV (David Greene) Message-Id: <9405261739.AA23020@gisedtnnsh.er.usgs.GOV> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Help with -m4 switch Status: RO Sorry for the long message but I am having some problems with Crossfire 0.91.1. I can get it compiled fine and it runs, but I wanted to remake the spoiler (my PS pritner can't handle the color graphics!!) and found that crossfire with the -m4 switch crashes on me. Here is a sample of the compiler command from the make, crossfire compile options, and 'crossfire -m4' output. gcc -fstrength-reduce -fpcc-struct-return -O -g -Wall -I../include -DDGUX -DSYSV -DLONGJUMP -DXpm_Pix -DFONTDIR=\"/gwdb/crossfire/fonts\" -DFONTNAME=\"crossfire\" -DLIBDIR=\"/gwdb/crossfire/lib\" -c swamp.c gisedtnnsh> crossfire -o Welcome to CrossFire, v0.91.1 Copyright (C) 1994 Mark Wedel. Copyright (C) 1992 Frank Tore Johansen. Non-standard include files: Secure: Logging: Libdir: /gwdb/crossfire/lib Perm file: /forbid Shutdown file: /shutdown Save player: Save mode: 0664 Playerdir: /players Save homedir: Lock player: Unique items: Itemsdir: /unique-items Lock items: Use checksum: Tmpdir: /gwdb/crossfire/tmp Fontdir: /gwdb/crossfire/fonts Compress: /local/bin/compress Uncompress: /local/bin/uncompress Map max timeout: 1000 Map reset: Max objects: 6000 Use_calloc: Speed_game: Use_los: CD los: CHRFONT: Use_swap_stats: Sound_effects: Server: Port: 13326 Explore mode: Shop listings: Max_time: 80000 dgux gisedtnnsh 5.4R2.01 USGS AViiON mc88100 gisedtnnsh> crossfire -m4 Welcome to CrossFire, v0.91.1 Copyright (C) 1994 Mark Wedel. Copyright (C) 1992 Frank Tore Johansen. magic bullet SIGSEGV received. Abort gisedtnnsh> Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Also, what is the latest version of TeX and where can I get it. I found TeX3.0 from 1990, but the archive was missing style files and was a PAIN to install. Surely it can't be that bad. And, is there a file somewhere which describes what every spell does, what is needed to do certain things like use the enchant scrolls, etc... (Basically I want a newbie file. I have played crossfire since 0.89.0 but I feel I am missing ALOT as far as actually understanding the game. Thanks, David. From crossfire-request Thu May 26 19:34:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from db.erau.edu (db.erau.edu [155.31.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:34:33 +0200 Received: from erau.db.erau.edu by db.erau.edu with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0q6jLJ-0007vuC; Thu, 26 May 94 13:35 EDT Received: by erau.db.erau.edu (4.1/client/jimberau-1.0) id AA06024; Thu, 26 May 94 13:37:30 EDT Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 13:36:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Judkins Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: scott@santafe.edu Cc: Petri Heinil{ , Klaus Elsbernd , Sven Neuhaus , crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <9405261730.AA06472@coronado> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Thu, 26 May 1994 scott@santafe.edu wrote: > >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Judkins writes: > > Jeff> On Thu, 26 May 1994, Petri Heinil{ wrote: > >> >From the experience of xpilot; for action real-time play > >> there may be no other processes, than the server and > > I find that crossfire over the net is just inacceptible. period. > > Scott Don't have much experiance playing over the net, but I'm willing to bet that's true. Net lag can kill you very fast in crossfire. +============================+==============================+ | This message courtesy of: | You bore me to death | | | So shut up for God's sake | | Jeff Judkins | Stop reading me the riot act | | judkinsj@erau.db.erau.edu | While my brains still intact | +============================+==============================+ Kill'em all and then just let God sort out the mess. From crossfire-request Thu May 26 19:25:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from sfi.santafe.edu (sfi.santafe.edu [192.12.12.1]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 19:25:04 +0200 From: scott@santafe.edu Received: from coronado (coronado.santafe.edu) by sfi.santafe.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01838; Thu, 26 May 94 11:31:29 MDT Received: by coronado (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06472; Thu, 26 May 94 11:30:18 MDT Date: Thu, 26 May 94 11:30:18 MDT Message-Id: <9405261730.AA06472@coronado> To: Jeff Judkins Cc: Petri Heinil{ , Klaus Elsbernd , Sven Neuhaus , crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis In-Reply-To: Your message at 12:48:18 on Thu, 26 May 1994 References: Status: RO >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Judkins writes: Jeff> On Thu, 26 May 1994, Petri Heinil{ wrote: >> >From the experience of xpilot; for action real-time play >> there may be no other processes, than the server and I find that crossfire over the net is just inacceptible. period. Scott From crossfire-request Thu May 26 18:57:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from soda.berkeley.edu (soda.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.149.19]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 18:57:29 +0200 Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.9/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id JAA14437 for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 09:57:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199405261657.JAA14437@soda.berkeley.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 May 1994 02:38:46 PDT." <199405260938.AA11203@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 09:57:23 -0700 From: Scott MacFiggen Status: RO In message <199405260938.AA11203@bolero.rahul.net>you write: >A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up some, so it is easier to understand. >And in fact, I think a lot of the code right now is in pretty good shape. Alot of the code is just fine, but some areas are pretty bad. > So if a re-write is done, what will really be changed? The topic was >initially brought up making it so that the class specific stuff could >be easily separated. The thing is, can that be done in a reasonable I actually proposed the idea of a 'spring cleaning' that could happen in conjunction with Eric Mehlhaff's idea of separating the game mechanics from the rest of the game, essentially making crossfire and object server. Just rewriting the code probably wouldn't help much. >So I guess the first questions should be: What do we hope to gain by >a major re-write, and is this feasible under any situation? One of my major beefs with crossfire code is the wasted space. It seems whenever someone adds a new feature, they add a new entry to the object structure, stuff like that. >Also, any re-write teams needs to work pretty closely together. Several >people working separately probably won't generate anything better than what >we have right now. Well, there are quite a few people over here at Berkeley... > > --Mark ############################################################################## # Scott MacFiggen -- 88 VTR250 -- EUVE Systems Administrator -- CEA # # # # smurf@soda.berkeley.edu CSUA Vice-President scottmm@cea.berkeley.edu # ############################################################################## From crossfire-request Thu May 26 18:47:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from db.erau.edu (db.erau.edu [155.31.1.13]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 18:47:30 +0200 Received: from erau.db.erau.edu by db.erau.edu with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0q6ibX-0007wMC; Thu, 26 May 94 12:48 EDT Received: by erau.db.erau.edu (4.1/client/jimberau-1.0) id AA05646; Thu, 26 May 94 12:50:15 EDT Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 12:48:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Judkins Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: Petri Heinil{ Cc: Klaus Elsbernd , Sven Neuhaus , crossfire@ifi.uio.no, elsbernd@dfki.uni-kl.de In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Thu, 26 May 1994, Petri Heinil{ wrote: > >From the experience of xpilot; for action real-time play > there may be no other processes, than the server and > the other servers (tcpd,...). If the load goes over 1, > then the play starts to lag, and the playability stops. The main disadvantage with Xpilot is again the graphics. We find it unplayable on anything without a graphics accelerator on the suns. When we use the machines with graphics accelerators, then a lowly SLC (or even one of the machines playing) can act as a server and it runs great. > > The if there is a server, then there is a machine > allocated to it. I don't see this is nowdays problem, > think about Linux. Or otherwise the number of hosts in net > seems to be strongly increase, so the will find > a free machine anyway (or at least for xpilot there > exists). > > -- The Page -- > true. +============================+==============================+ | This message courtesy of: | You bore me to death | | | So shut up for God's sake | | Jeff Judkins | Stop reading me the riot act | | judkinsj@erau.db.erau.edu | While my brains still intact | +============================+==============================+ Kill'em all and then just let God sort out the mess. From crossfire-request Thu May 26 15:53:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from cc.lut.fi (hevi@cc.lut.fi [157.24.10.16]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 15:53:35 +0200 Received: (from hevi@localhost) by cc.lut.fi (8.6.8/8.6.6/1.17.kim) id QAA23120; Thu, 26 May 1994 16:52:29 +0300 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 16:52:29 +0300 (EETDST) From: Petri Heinil{ Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: Klaus Elsbernd cc: Sven Neuhaus , crossfire@ifi.uio.no, elsbernd@dfki.uni-kl.de In-Reply-To: <199405260905.LAA17967@isg-200> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Thu, 26 May 1994, Klaus Elsbernd wrote: > What a machine are you using for crossfire? > My 3/60 has problems, when running with xpm and only me in crossfire. > What does your sysadmin say, if you slow down a big machine with crossfire and 30 > players on it? Sysadmin says: "I have no time, I'm playing crossfire" :) >From the experience of xpilot; for action real-time play there may be no other processes, than the server and the other servers (tcpd,...). If the load goes over 1, then the play starts to lag, and the playability stops. The if there is a server, then there is a machine allocated to it. I don't see this is nowdays problem, think about Linux. Or otherwise the number of hosts in net seems to be strongly increase, so the will find a free machine anyway (or at least for xpilot there exists). -- The Page -- From crossfire-request Thu May 26 13:07:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from nova.gmi.edu (nova.gmi.edu [192.138.137.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 13:07:01 +0200 Received: from trofeo.gmi.edu by nova.gmi.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA20027; Thu, 26 May 94 07:10:03 EDT Date: Thu, 26 May 94 07:10:03 EDT From: srin9340@nova.gmi.edu (akshay srinivasan) Message-Id: <9405261110.AA20027@nova.gmi.edu> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Status: RO There is a shop to the South West of the Tabblands that has been giving players trouble. It says to drop 200 gold and then 4000 gold after which supposedly you will be let in. However this does not work and the players cant get into the store. Another problem is with the volcano south of the same. Players cleared out the area then came upon a bunch of gates with no apparent purpose (means of lowering). They then came upon a stairwell going down that was closed. This really disappointed them. I hope that the maps in use dont have too many such apparently semi-finished areas. On the other hand if there is a way in please give some more clues. By the way is there a more detailed guide to designing maps. If so could you tell me where I can get my hands on it. Many thanks. Ripclaw (Lev. 14; Maintainer) From crossfire-request Thu May 26 11:41:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 11:41:28 +0200 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA22568 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 26 May 1994 02:38:48 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA11203 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 26 May 1994 02:38:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 02:38:46 -0700 From: Mark Wedel Message-Id: <199405260938.AA11203@bolero.rahul.net> To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no, rgg@aaii.oz.au Subject: Re: Rewrite (was Re: Classes, Race, Experience proposal) Status: RO Also, a re-write is not likely to stop many releases. In fact, it might be prone to create more, as a re-write is likely to introduce all sorts of bugs. Right now, I try to make releases about every 2 weeks to keep intereste and so that developers are working on code that is pretty much the same as what I have. If I did releases every 3 months, several things would happen. First, soem people would be frustrated that some bug they have has not been fixed, or not seeing any new features. And I would have more problems if someone sends in a patch near the end of that 3 month period, as the code they made a diff to is probably different than the code I have, making it so that I have to do the patch by hand. I'll agree that a lot of the code needs to be cleaned up (in the last release (0.91.1), I think I did a pretty good job on the treasure.c file) A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up some, so it is easier to understand. And in fact, I think a lot of the code right now is in pretty good shape. So if a re-write is done, what will really be changed? The topic was initally brought up making it so that the class specific stuff could be easily separated. The thing is, can that be done in a reasonable fashion under any set of code? Certainly, many of the structures are going to change, and in some systems, what certain items do might also change. It might just be easier to branch off a separate developement version, because so many functions would need to be changed. So I guess the first questions should be: What do we hope to gain by a major re-write, and is this feasible under any situation? Also, any re-write teams needs to work pretty closely together. Several people working separately probably won't generate anything better than what we have right now. --Mark From crossfire-request Thu May 26 08:01:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.4.42]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 26 May 1994 08:01:55 +0200 Received: from marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de by waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP (Sendmail 8.6.9/UniDo 2.0.18) id IAA16654; Thu, 26 May 1994 08:01:52 +0200 From: Sven Neuhaus Message-Id: <9405260601.AA25495@marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Received: by marvin.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id AA25495; Thu, 26 May 94 08:01:51 +0200 Subject: Re: Solo/Multiplayer emphasis To: mehlhaff@crl.com ('Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 08:01:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: crossfire@ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: <199405260503.AA25527@crl2.crl.com> from "'Most Excellent' Eric Mehlhaff" at May 25, 94 10:03:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2250 Status: RO > While keeping crossfire multi-player would be cool, I think that we should > look realistically at this. It just eats way too much cpu to really support > a lot of players well, certainly not on the sale of the multi-scores of people > on your typical MUD. > Basically, on a MUD, they don't have all the tactical complexities, grapics, > and sheer volume of MOBS that we have in crossfire. We're inherendly limited > in number of players equivalent CPU can support. In that respect, then, the > peak number of players is limited. With less players, its hard to get together > a multi-player game. You sort of see this in netrek, which is why the > netrek METASERVER came about -- to help the few players around find a game with > players in it. Perhaps future possibility of something similar that should be > looked into (wouldn't bee too hard, what with the crossfire telnet port > already built in). I don't agree with this. I expect Crossfire to become a true client/server game sooner or later. Then, there won't be that much of CPU per player. I think the game could handle 20 players or even more. The maps are certainly large enough. Once the servers really get that full, we should implement "soft updates" for shops and maybe some other maps. Some items get replaced one-by-one. > If you lean too heavily toward the 'all multiplayer or nothing' approach, > then your servers will start looking like netrek, either full, or completely > empty, and rarely anything in between. It will never be that extreme, I'm sure, since Netrek is heavily based on 2 teams competing against each other so playing alone is pointless (you can fight robots, but that does get boring). > The most players I've ever seen on a server was something like 8. Has > anyone actually gone higher, in a realistic situation? Not really. Our local server is running on a Sparc Classic, and we're at something like 6 players max. The limiting factor is the slow X redirection. > Eric Mehlhaff, mehlhaff@crl.com -Sven -- Sven Neuhaus, CS student at University of Dortmund, Germany/\Internet for Netrek, Doom & Empire addict.PGP key available upon request@@ the masses! KGB CIA Assassination Palestine explosive terrorist Uzi NSA\/info@ping.de From owner-crossfire Wed May 25 08:34:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from bera.ifi.uio.no (2037@bera.ifi.uio.no [129.240.80.3]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:34:24 +0200 Received: (from frankj@localhost) by bera.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 25 May 1994 08:34:23 +0200 Message-Id: <199405250634.6184.bera.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Subject: Crossfire 0.91.1 announce To: crossfire-announce@ifi.uio.no Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 08:34:22 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: Crossfire, discussion, list, From: Mark Wedel X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1682 Status: RO There are three separate tar archives in the Crossfire 0.91.1 distribution. crossfire-0.91.1.tar.gz contains the actual program code, as well as premade archetype, bitmaps, and xpm files. crossfire-0.91.1-maps.tar.gz contains all the maps. A few more of the old maps have been merged in. crossfire-0.91.1-arch.tar.gz contains the unpacked archetype (arch) directory. This file is not needed if you just want to compile the games and play. The contents of this archive is used to create the archetypes, bmaps, font, and X PixMap (XPM) files. You only need it if you want to add new archetypes, or mess around with the existing ones. crossfier-0.91.0-0.91.1.patch.gz is a compressed patch file. It patches all files. NOTE: In this version, I removed many of the archetypes that are not used on any of the maps in the standard distribution. If using a different set of maps, you should put in the missing archetypes that those maps use. NOTE2: The treasures file does contain entries to randomly generate scrolls that are used to enchant/improve weapons. If you don't want these to be generated randomly, remove them from the treasures file. There are many other changes in this version of crossfire, look at the CHANGES file for a complete list. AVAILABILITY: Crossfire is avaible on the following ftp sites ftp.ifi.uio.no:/pub/crossfire (129.240.82.2) ftp.world.net:/pub/crossfire (192.243.32.18) yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au:/pub/crossfire (130.194.9.1) ftp.cs.city.ac.uk:/pub/games/crossfire/ Note: there may be a short delay before the ftp.world.net, ftp.cs.city.ac.uk yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au sites get the newest version. Mark Wedel master@rahul.net From owner-crossfire Fri May 6 09:45:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from bera.ifi.uio.no (1232@bera.ifi.uio.no [129.240.80.3]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 6 May 1994 09:45:47 +0200 Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by bera.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 6 May 1994 09:45:46 +0200 Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:45:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199405060745.4598.bera.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> From: Mark Wedel To: crossfire-announce@ifi.uio.no Reply-To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no Sender: owner-crossfire@ifi.uio.no Errors-To: owner-crossfire@ifi.uio.no Subject: Crossfire 0.91.0 released Status: RO There are three separate tar archives in the Crossfire 0.91.0 distribution. crossfire-0.91.0.tar.gz contains the actual program code, as well as premade archetype, bitmaps, and xpm files. crossfire-0.91.0-maps.tar.gz contains all the maps. Some maps have been made to look better with XPM images, others have had minor bug fixes. Some 'new' maps were also added. These include Magara and some of the esben maps. The Magara maps are as an island, the esben maps were added as towers and buildings to the old maps. These maps came from the 'old' (crossfire 0.90.0), which were removed when the chico maps were added. crossfire-0.91.0-arch.tar.gz contains the unpacked archetype (arch) directory. This file is not needed if you just want to compile the games and play. The contents of this archive is used to create the archetypes, bmaps, font, and X PixMap (XPM) files. You only need it if you want to add new archetypes, or mess around with the existing ones. There are many changes in this version of crossfire, look at the CHANGES file for a complete list. Several people have asked that I make patch files (context diffs) for upgrading. I looked into it for this version, and the problem is that the diffs of many of the files in the lib directory (font and xpm files) makes it so that a patch file will not be any smaller than just grabbing the new release. AVAILABILITY: Crossfire is avaible on the following ftp sites ftp.ifi.uio.no:/pub/crossfire (129.240.64.2) ftp.world.net:/pub/crossfire (192.243.32.18) yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au:/pub/crossfire (130.194.9.1) ftp.cs.city.ac.uk:/pub/games/crossfire/ Note: there may be a short delay before the ftp.world.net, ftp.cs.city.ac.uk and yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au sites get the newest version. Mark Wedel master@rahul.net