From kbulgrien at att.net Wed May 6 04:14:05 2009 From: kbulgrien at att.net (Kevin Bulgrien) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 04:14:05 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Melee / Projectile / Magic / In-progress re-balance observations Message-ID: <20090506041405.018becb7@a850srvr.kbulgrien.att.net> Starting a new character on 2.x I still feel physical combat is over-powered at this time for low levels. It is too easy to wear a bunch of armor, load up on protection and go after it. Magic recharge is way slower than health recharge especially when considering healing magic availability. I have even gone to the extent of deliberately slowing down pace of playing so I could remove all armor that slows recharge rate, wearing low-level available rings, etc. It took a looooong time to clear a relatively low-level dungeon while trying to keep from destroying money making stuff. In some difficult maps it was very hard not to avoid death at the point magic ran low in the presence of poison and other non-melee incoming attacks... Not that this is bad, its just not the same for melee. This character happens to be a paladin with praying (wounding denied) and sorcery. Magic/melee levels in the 10-11 range with overall level somewhere about 17. I do recognize I am not a very good player. but then the community is small enough it seems reasonable to assume even if it seems a minority, the percentage of active players isn't that insignificant, and the issues I face are the ones newbies will face if they choose not to spend days in raffle and such. The observation holds for a variety of dungeons... ranging from raffle to the various royalty quests, and many more. One spends great amounts of idle time waiting for recharge, or, one switches to physical to while away the time ... and ends up with a physically strong character even though that is not really what one wants. An aspect to this that is particularly important is that many magic attacks ruin loot, or make it hard to get too (ice). A disproportionate amount of loot is completely destroyed. As low-level money is way out of balance with high-level money, this is a double-whammy for low-level magic users. Praying is somewhat better perhaps because you can control recharge. I don't have a feel for the class that can ?recharge magic? as I don't ever recall playing with it. I'm thinking more of the ones that have to charge over time. I recognize re-balance is in progress, but feel this data point might be good to consider. BTW, I'm not sure about the argument about if it takes n minutes as a magic user to get to level x and the same for melee combat. If the magic user is falling asleep due to charging boredom... haven't thought much on it. What sounds good at the front might not be so fun at the back. The money factor seems not to be considered in this argument. The melee guy will have way more money and resultant growth and character development opportunity at this time. Level is not the only measure. Not even sure what to say about archery. Its very slow. Not sure about overall balance, but gets quite hard for the level character I am talking about even with a couple of wc +2 modifiers and hill giants. Without a large quantity of magic arrows (expensive), it seems worse than magic even. Throwing seems like a joke added only to amuse oneself with... Throwing desks and the like. Surely not used seriously. Not sure what value these comments might have... or even how typical. The only 2.x server seems very lightly played. BTW, the spamming "you miss the" is... well... annoying? Magic misses don't spam you. Is there really value to saying you missed repetitively? How hard is it to say it once and defer saying again until a hit? Other opinions out there on this? From om at iki.fi Wed May 6 04:55:45 2009 From: om at iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 12:55:45 +0300 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes Message-ID: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> As noted earlier on this mailing list, the Linux distribution crossfire-1.11.0-1 server crashes hard minutes after items using Python code (like banks, mail system etc) get loaded. Is anyone working on this? -- /* * * Otto J. Makela * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */ /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, FAX: +358 42 7655772, ICBM: 60N 25E */ /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki, FINLAND */ /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * */ From leaf at real-time.com Wed May 6 12:37:34 2009 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 12:37:34 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes In-Reply-To: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> Message-ID: <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Otto J. Makela wrote: > As noted earlier on this mailing list, the Linux distribution > crossfire-1.11.0-1 server crashes hard minutes after items using > Python code (like banks, mail system etc) get loaded. > > Is anyone working on this? What distro and version are you using and encountering this on? Banks, message board, mail system worked for me using crossfire-server version 1.11.0-2, python2.5 (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) and python2.5-minimal (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) Those python packages were installed as dependencies of crossfire-server. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKAcrehHyvgBp+vH4RAvlbAJ4goZ5CBZUugTWWAqYLxfF2spGm/wCeI5KD LfVKAkp1YjFJ2NKkc4BwIHc= =8ECw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mwedel at sonic.net Thu May 7 00:14:50 2009 From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 22:14:50 -0700 Subject: [crossfire] Melee / Projectile / Magic / In-progress re-balance observations In-Reply-To: <20090506041405.018becb7@a850srvr.kbulgrien.att.net> References: <20090506041405.018becb7@a850srvr.kbulgrien.att.net> Message-ID: <4A026E4A.3020200@sonic.net> Quick notes: Magic needs more rebalance work, and the note about destroy objects is too true. Changing how often (if at all) magic destroys item is one of those things to do. Magic should probably destroy items on occasion, but that might be limited to things like fireball or other large area effect things, and not from things like bolts, which are more directed. SP regen is still an issue - that said, as a fighter, I often found I'd hop off the map and wait for half a minute to regain HP, so I'm not sure if it that much difference. Maybe it is in that a mage can expend all of his SP much faster than a fighter can typically lose all their HP (for a mage, it could be hop on the map, blast all your spells in just a couple seconds, and hop off again. If a fighter is losing all their HP in that time, they are in serious trouble). One thing I tried out is giving mages a 0 cost spell - it is a fairly limited low damage spell (sort of like firing an arrow), but point being that it lets them do something even when they have no SP. I sort of prefer that vs making spells have long casting times or something so that it takes longer for a mage to burn up there SP. Archery is a little harder to balance - at some level, you don't want it too powerful - the character using it has some advantage in that they are some distance away from what they are attacking, so ideally not taking damage. What probably some of those skills need is some extra benefit that is unique to those skills - maybe for archery, it means that at higher levels, the character can slow/paralyze opponents or something. There are different arrows that do that, but managing arrows can be tricky. Throwing was never balanced at all, and probably has no real use, except for a few special items (dusts) which can be thrown. That said, I'm not sure if there is necessarily a requirement that all skills be balanced. I'd say that the core class/races should be balanced (in that they have usable skills), but if someone wants to try to make a character that relies on throwing as their primary skill, good luck to them. The misses thing is a bit odd - at some point, you sort of want some feedback you are attacking (Vs paralyzed or doing something else random) - with spells at least, you get some visual indication - for melee, you really don't other than those messages. From om at iki.fi Thu May 7 03:02:07 2009 From: om at iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 11:02:07 +0300 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes In-Reply-To: <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> Message-ID: <4A02957F.6070508@iki.fi> Rick Tanner wrote: > What distro and version are you using and encountering this on? > > Banks, message board, mail system worked for me using crossfire-server > version 1.11.0-2, python2.5 (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) and > python2.5-minimal (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) > > Those python packages were installed as dependencies of crossfire-server. % cat /etc/fedora-release Fedora release 10 (Cambridge) % uname -a Linux tigger.otto.net 2.6.27.21-170.2.56.fc10.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Mar 23 23:08:10 EDT 2009 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux % rpm -qa crossfire\* python\* | sort crossfire-1.11.0-1.fc10.x86_64 crossfire-client-1.11.0-1.fc10.x86_64 crossfire-client-images-1.11.0-1.fc10.x86_64 crossfire-doc-1.11.0-1.fc10.x86_64 crossfire-maps-1.11.0-1.fc10.noarch crossfire-plugins-1.11.0-1.fc10.x86_64 python-2.5.2-1.fc10.x86_64 python-crypto-2.0.1-14.fc10.x86_64 python-debuginfo-2.5.2-1.fc10.x86_64 python-imaging-1.1.6-12.fc10.x86_64 python-iniparse-0.2.4-1.fc10.noarch python-libs-2.5.2-1.fc10.x86_64 python-numeric-24.2-11.fc9.x86_64 python-paste-1.7.1-1.fc10.noarch python-reportlab-2.1-2.fc9.noarch python-setuptools-0.6c9-1.fc10.noarch python-slip-0.1.15-1.fc10.noarch python-slip-dbus-0.1.15-1.fc10.noarch python-slip-gtk-0.1.15-1.fc10.noarch python-sqlite2-2.3.3-3.fc9.x86_64 python-urlgrabber-3.0.0-10.fc10.noarch If I remember earlier discussions correctly, this problem has been around for quite some time? -- /* * * Otto J. Makela * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */ /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, FAX: +358 42 7655772, ICBM: 60N 25E */ /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki, FINLAND */ /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * */ From tanner at real-time.com Thu May 7 22:31:01 2009 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:31:01 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> Message-ID: On 2009-05-06 12:37:34 -0500, Rick Tanner said: > Banks, message board, mail system worked for me using crossfire-server > version 1.11.0-2, python2.5 (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) and > python2.5-minimal (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) Rick, Is that a 32-bit ubuntu install? Otto's fedora install is a 64-bit system. My guess is similar issues would show themselves on a 64-bit install of ubuntu. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952 943-8700 http://www.real-time.com, Linux, OSX, VMware | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = F785 DDFC CF94 7CE8 AA87 3A9D 3895 26F1 0DDB E378 From meflin at meflin.net Thu May 7 22:45:48 2009 From: meflin at meflin.net (James Lopeman) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 21:45:48 -0600 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes In-Reply-To: References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> Message-ID: <200905072145.48763.meflin@meflin.net> This issue is well know on fedora (32 and i think 64 ).. the fix is already in SVN, no server release since James Lopeman On Thursday 07 May 2009 21:31:01 Bob Tanner wrote: > On 2009-05-06 12:37:34 -0500, Rick Tanner > > said: > > Banks, message board, mail system worked for me using crossfire-server > > version 1.11.0-2, python2.5 (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) and > > python2.5-minimal (version 2.5.4-1ubuntu4) > > Rick, > > Is that a 32-bit ubuntu install? > > Otto's fedora install is a 64-bit system. My guess is similar issues > would show themselves on a 64-bit install of ubuntu. From om at iki.fi Fri May 8 04:23:40 2009 From: om at iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 12:23:40 +0300 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes In-Reply-To: <200905072145.48763.meflin@meflin.net> References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> <200905072145.48763.meflin@meflin.net> Message-ID: <4A03FA1C.8060307@iki.fi> James Lopeman wrote: > This issue is well know on fedora (32 and i think 64 ).. the fix is already in > SVN, no server release since Great to hear this. Is the fix expected to be pushed into updates? -- /* * * Otto J. Makela * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */ /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, FAX: +358 42 7655772, ICBM: 60N 25E */ /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki, FINLAND */ /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * */ From tanner at real-time.com Fri May 8 15:49:55 2009 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:49:55 -0500 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> <200905072145.48763.meflin@meflin.net> Message-ID: On 2009-05-07 22:45:48 -0500, James Lopeman said: > This issue is well know on fedora (32 and i think 64 ).. the fix is already in > SVN, no server release since Interesting. Do tell the details? Link to bug report? -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952 943-8700 http://www.real-time.com, Linux, OSX, VMware | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = F785 DDFC CF94 7CE8 AA87 3A9D 3895 26F1 0DDB E378 From meflin at meflin.net Fri May 8 16:14:45 2009 From: meflin at meflin.net (James Lopeman) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:14:45 -0600 Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes In-Reply-To: References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <200905072145.48763.meflin@meflin.net> Message-ID: <200905081514.46185.meflin@meflin.net> The second and more useful bug http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2459929&group_id=13833&atid=113833 at this time the only cure is to use svn trunk ( perhaps the new branch, not sure ) This was ignored on previous reports on invidious ( including cores ) untill an 2nd person figured out that is was related to python being compiled with -DNDEBUG with that new information anmaster graciously code dived and found a fix Neflin On Friday 08 May 2009 14:49:55 Bob Tanner wrote: > On 2009-05-07 22:45:48 -0500, James Lopeman > > said: > > This issue is well know on fedora (32 and i think 64 ).. the fix is > > already in SVN, no server release since > > Interesting. Do tell the details? Link to bug report? From lalo.martins at gmail.com Sat May 9 05:53:26 2009 From: lalo.martins at gmail.com (Lalo Martins) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 10:53:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [crossfire] Linux and Python code crashes References: <4A015EA1.8010009@iki.fi> <4A01CADE.9010305@real-time.com> <200905072145.48763.meflin@meflin.net> <4A03FA1C.8060307@iki.fi> Message-ID: quoth Otto J. Makela (Fri, 08 May 2009 12:23:40 +0300): > James Lopeman wrote: >> This issue is well know on fedora (32 and i think 64 ).. the fix is >> already in SVN, no server release since > > Great to hear this. Is the fix expected to be pushed into updates? The 1.12 release is "in progress"; the client has already been released, and the server was on the verge of getting released, but then my computer broke, and the laptop I'm using has no disk or memory to even have a full source tree, let alone build and test it :-( I should be back to normal life next week or so, and then there will be a content and server release. -- I'm using a laptop and forgot to copy my signature file. For the moment, whatever info you want is probably at http://lalomartins.info/ or thereabouts...